Padstow Darkie Days

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,WYSIWYG
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 12:30 PM

Yes, and that would be lovely, really. But that isn't how people actually TICK. They (we) react, and then misunderstanding abounds. I bet a lot of people here think they ARE on topic but actually, they are on a subtopic that's running amok.

I think it's a fear thing. In a discussion in person, I would ask each person to quietly name what it is they are afraid of in this topic, and I would ask the others to just listen, take it in, not repond, and share what THEY are afraid of. From there it would all be an entirely different discussion, but it still would be on the topic.

In an environment like a thread, tho, people tend not to get to that basic level first and work from there, but to start from the most outward layer. Then one wonders why it's not going well, as the inward stuff keeps cropping up in disguise.

Just something to consider. If anyone posting everyone in this thread picked ONE other person from it, to discuss some aspect via PM, I bet they both would come back with some very valuable insights about the topic.

I'm NOT saying "you should do this" or "this thread ought to be closed." I'm just saying, if the topic really interests anyone, there is an effective way to get at the issues and obtain some mutual understanding, and having done this myself on a number of occasions, I can recommend doing that.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 12:12 PM

what I see is a thread started by a post to a discussion forum. anyone who chooses to go off topic has the facility of pm's and email. anyone who wishes to reamin on topic has the thread. anybody uninterested can ignore the thread.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,WYSIWYG
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 11:54 AM

What I see here are a lot of good people trying to have a meaningful discussion in good faith, but it does not seem to be actually working.

A couple of observations:

1. All human beings are affected by racism, in direct and indirect ways. ("Affected by" and "targeted by" are not the same thing.)

2. Racism means many things to many people, and not everyone means the same thing by the word. It can mean discriminatory behavior, violence, discomfort, rekindled memories.... all sorts of things. Until one learns what it means to the one using the word, discussion (underneath the outer layer) is about... apples and machine oil! :~)

3. Respect for someone else's culture gets to be a tricky thing in a multi-cultural setting. We all have hot-buttons of one sort or another that make it hard to "hear" one another. Yet we yearn to understand one another, and to be understood, so we often rush ahead of the resources to actually DO it.

4. "Culture" is not a pure, pristine thing devoid of patterns of wrongness toward people of other cultures. It's a mix, and sometimes, a mess. We acquire it from people we love and respect. Taking out the things we decide, later, were wrong, is very hard to do, and it can't be forced on people except as regards behavior.

5. "Respect our UK traditions and culture" has as much value as "respect our US traditions and culture." Around Mudcat it has too frequently become the fashion to judge first, then attempt to sort out the cultural issues. The balance tips back and forth across the pond, usually with little or no undersanding being gained.

6. I have spotted as many as six separate and distinct on-topic conversations going on in this thread, with people responding to what one person has said as tho it were directed to one of the specific conversations in progress-- but usually it had been aimed at a different conversaton! The usual reaction seems to be, "I didn't mean that" or "I didn't say that" or "You don't understand." This defensivenss should not be a surprise in such loaded-with-distress topics.

7. In diffucult areas like this topic, it all often boils down to, "No-- YOU should have understood ME, MY hurts, MY fears, MY values." But once it gets difficult, usually no one is thinking differently! No one is listening to YOU, tending instead to listen to themselves.

8. It turns out that topics like this can be handled more effectively in PMs or email. Some of y'all might want to try it there, one on one. Another good place to handle them is in Chat, where whatever is misunderstood can be cleared up before the reaction gets too far away from one.


Just some things to think about. Not a judgment or a criticism. Just the stuff I see after years of working with groups that are trying to discuss hot topics.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 11:46 AM

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,439681,00.html

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 11:35 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3665066.stm

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2003/09/277884.html

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:29 AM

Peter I put my comments earlier about what the event should be about. 26th feb 7:25am.
I wasn't there so I can't really comment on what the press has reported.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:19 AM

*****
   /   \
G <> <> Q
   \ o /
    [o]
    *#*

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:14 AM

Villan, I don't know whether the Padstow Darkie Day business is based on morris dancing, or morris dancing gone wrong, or somethingelse entirely. But according to Cats, it was once overlaid with racist bells and whistles and now is not. Where and what is the traditional bit in all this?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:11 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 09:06 AM

Les, wait your turn next time. Its not a race.

'Milk Monitor' , that name alone in some circles will be interpreted by some through word association as 'White Overseer' or some such.

Isnt that a daft thought?

While all the time you were a milk monitor when at school.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 08:57 AM

Hello El greko

I take it ,thats a No then?

Cheap at the price.

Thanks to all my friends here who yet again have come out on top.

werent all the slaves that went to the states from cornwall white prisoners who were 'transported 'for their crimes?

One story has emerged in song ,called 'Transportee' written by a Padstonian. To my knowledge Moses knows it well enough to perform.

Then if I maybe so bold as to point out that slaves were from many ethnic origins ans not exclusivly one race.

When was the last time the States played an international match against another country! It happens all the time here -and I'm talking sport -? perhaps they ought to get away more!! Come and visit us and experience our folk clubs and hear some really good writers of songs.

which reminds me that we have Britains leading greek singer songwriter appearing tonight at ....well you know all that anyway.

Now, who saw the tsunami comic show last night and what did you think about the closing act?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 08:45 AM

Nobody is ridiculing the Issue MM. As far as us folkies are concerned, morris dancing etc is related to tradition, not rascism.

You seem to be hell bent on trying to make it a rascist issue. I have yet to meet somebody in the folk world in the UK who is rascist. Can you tell me who they are?

Is the folk scene in America Rascist?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 08:14 AM

cats, channel four could also have been there doing a harmless doc on Brit traditions. I'll see what I can find out for you.

If, as you say the songs and costumes have changed because some found them offensive, then you probably have more of an issue with your own local paper describing the event in the words I quoted above.As I said that quote is ten months old.

And also the recently published book, I put a link to, that reported on the event in the same vein. If that is the information being put out, and you disagree with it, challenge it with those putting it out, because it goes towards what you will be judged upon. Fairly or otherwise.

As to the rest of the posts, since our own, I think what had been a very interesting discussion was abruptly ended by those who had no interest in discussing. Why?

And I also agree that it was very rude and did no favours for those trying to uphold a tradition they clearly hold dear.

This is a worldwide forum, and as such not everybody knows or is interested in who breezy is, all they will take from his post is that his self importance made him think he had the right to jump in and call a halt to proceedings. Further supported by a few others who also had no interest/ability in discussion.

There was no need for it and all it showed was their own narrow mindedness. It is that very attitude that undermines your cause.

To those affected by racsim it is a serious issue. Those who ridicule the issue are part of the problem, not the solution.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 07:42 AM

Well said Guru.

Now onto serious matters... welsh rugby... YES!!!!!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: My guru always said
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 06:01 AM

Well, I'm sure glad we cleared that up about Breezy - well said George, The Villan & Cllr!

Doesn't it just show how easy it is to misread stuff in black & white when you're:

a) emotional
b) tired
c) not sober
d) of different cultures
e) trying to put across your own opinion
f) not open-minded enough
g) a stranger to the person whose post you've just read
h) etc

Honestly, this thread has shocked me & also opened my eyes to the cultural differences between us. We all have our own baggage and this colours our judgements. Different culture & experiences equals different reactions.

These are hot topics touching our hearts, the horror of racism and the pride in traditions going back hundreds of year, some as far as pre-Christian Pagan times. There has been excellent input to this thread from both sides of the pond. Lets not lose track of our love for our fellow man!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cllr
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 05:01 AM

Breezy is performing at ampthill acoustic club on the 8th of March Thats AMPTHILL ACOUSTIC CLUB.
El grecko is performing there on the 17 May
and I am lucky enough to call both friend. Thay may call me something entirely different. Both have different nationalities- One is greek the other wales/cornish/planet breezy and as far as the rugby goes I support two teams England and anyone playing France. Cllr

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 04:29 AM

I hope Breezy is still talking to you after all wat u sed George :-)

It's been a long time since he has been able to gloat about the Welsh Rugby team, so I suppose us English need to give him his hour of glory.

The hills are alive to the sound of Breezy :-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 03:40 AM

Did I say he's a mate?
(that'll be fifty quid, John)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 03:38 AM

Just to clear the air re Breezy:

He's a short hairy Welsh git (well, he went and had a haircut, so not so hairy now), full of energy despite his xx years (or was it xxx?), busks most days in hail and snow (even in the summer) collecting for the Leukaemia Busters charity (averages a couple of thousand pounds every year for them), a cracking performer especially when he gets passionate (the Welsh bit), and honourary Cornishman (lived there for many years, and still goes back every chance). Known variously as "the Padstow Harbour Busker", "the St Albans Busker", "the Mudcat Thread Hijacker", or "that annoying little p***" depending on your point of view. I Have no view on the last of those - literally.

He DID put in for Welsh Ambassador, but with the diplomacy gland removed at an early age, he stood no chance, so he runs the St Albans Windward and Spotlight folk clubs instead, in true democratic style similar to Attila the Hun. He is a tireless seeker for new talent, musically too, and promotes them shamelessly.

His reference to "played 3, won 3" refers to the Six Nations Rugby Challenge, where the Welsh have thrashed their opponents to date. "Kill" here is meant figuratively, I think.

And yes, he's a mate.
In the platonic sense, I hasten to add.
I may be Greek, but not THAT Greek...

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 02:55 AM

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy - PM
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:05 PM

"My head hurts.

El Greko tomorrow at the legion

and we welcome you all to join , if you want.




Now listen up you Mudcatters outside the U K

Wales, played 3 won 3,we've killed off the french the italians and the english now only the Irish and Scots to beat up and Wales will rule again."

That is breezy's last post. I fail to see how that can be considered rude? Hell, that must be the same guest fronm another thread.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 02:50 AM

Guest - why haven't you put your name on your post?

i think you have misread the situation regarding Breezy and El Greko.

They happen to be the best of mates.

This is exactly how things get taken out of hand. It would seem like you are calling Breezy a rascist. dear dear another example of somebody getting the wrong end of the stick.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 27 Feb 05 - 02:36 AM

Milk Monitor - One of the merrymakers has told me, no it's not me, that Channel 4 TV had a news crew there filming as they had been given a tip off that there was going to be a huge news story. Had there been then I'm sure that they would have run the story. The style of make up and words to songs which may have been deemed offensive were changed quite a few years ago because the people of Padstow didn't want to cause offence to anyone. Ziggy, the West Indian postman who lived in Padstow, used to go out with them and he saw nothing to cause offence. After the complaints by Bernie Grant the enquiry that ensued also found it not to be racist. The press are having a field day perpetuating the myth of how it used to be.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:39 PM

cornish racism figures.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:59 PM

breezy runs a folk club? The sheer rudeness in his last post may help you understand why black people aren't seen. Hey breezy you did el greko a great dis service with that post.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:50 PM

Although I see both sides of this, I think we're looking through different glasses. There is no way an American, particularly a black American whose attitude we all totally understand, can bring his value judgements to bear on Britain. We have different cultures. I travel to countries with different cultures and I try hard not to judge them by my country's history. Only a few sea miles from britain is France, A Republic that, for many Brits, is like another planet,for others, like Paradise. America and race relations go hand in hand, for those of us over here, it's all more subtle.
One of my great regrets is that almost no black people are ever seen at folk events, nowhere near the number that would represent their small percentage of the population even.Culturally there is very little mix and I regret this. Amongst musicians colour has never been an issue, but i'd love to see more black faces in the audiences and at festivals.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Compton
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:42 PM

Brittania Coconut Dancers (Bacup) Easter Saturday...watch out, boys for (Folk) Police Cameras!!

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:22 PM

Them's fightin' words, breezy.

(Is that about soccer, cricket, golf--WHAT?)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 05:05 PM

My head hurts.

El Greko tomorrow at the legion

and we welcome you all to join , if you want.




Now listen up you Mudcatters outside the U K

Wales, played 3 won 3,we've killed off the french the italians and the english now only the Irish and Scots to beat up and Wales will rule again.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:42 PM

cats, did you mean the UK national Channel Four TV Company? I have a very good friend who has worked within their news team.

He is currently abroad on an assignment, but due to return to the UK within a few weeks, I will ask him about their involvement in the filming and get back to you.

You state the costumes and songs have changed. Could you advise me when this change took place and why it took place? Thankyou.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:24 PM

A morris group that I know, have in actual fact resorted to blacking up in a slightly different way. They use black and yellow and it looks very effective. They do different pattens for each person. A bit like face painting.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:17 PM

Sorry. I am confusing that date with something else. It began to end in the 1770s.

BM

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 02:08 PM

Britain (England) officially got out of the slave trade in 1807 if memory serves me well.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 01:42 PM

Milk Monitor, I wasn't quoting you or saying you had said it was inflammatory, I said if the news was inflammatory channel 4 would have shown it. Please don't think I was getting at you at all. All I am doing is putting up all the things that are being put out in the press down here. Every newspaper seems to be putting up the sensational side of it, which went when the songs and costumes changed, although alot of people still presume it hasn't changed. As I said in the beginning, my concern is for all the other black faced traditions we have in this country, if this goes through.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:48 AM

cats, I never called it 'inflammatory' or 'big news'. In fact I don't think it either.

What I did do was quote two reports that contradict your take on things. Attack is seldom the best form of defence.

You may 'enjoy playing devil's advocate', I hope you find someone to play with. Have a good day now.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:28 AM

Milk Monitor.. I'd love it if the local press covered local traditions every year, (note it is a tradition and NOT a festival. very few people even know about it here in Cornwall) but they don't. Until all this happened there has been hardly any mention and no pics in the papers for years, since Bernie Grant tried to stop it in 1998 when it was found not to be racist. The local press cover very few traditions with the exception of May Day and Flora which get coverage every year. Did you know about it? Do you know about the other Padstow traditions that are kept up each year? have you seen them in the paper? I haven't.

The Merrymakers took their own footage this year as soon as they realised it was being filmed by the police and channel 4 TV to be on the safe side. We all know what photos do, never lie but just wait until I get it on the computer!!! As an after thought, if it was so inflammatory and big news, why didn't Channel 4 news put it out?

Oh how I love to play devils advocate.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:28 AM

Few countries are as racially tolerant as Britain.
Things that would be offensive elsewhere may not be here.
A few years ago a thread discussed the use of the word pickinini, which is neutral here but regarded as massively offensive in US.
An African American should not try to judge our customs. You would have to immerse yourself in our culture first.
I would take notice if a member of a minority community had a problem with it.
It appears they do not.
Keith.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 09:08 AM

Amen adelphi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM

This will make the 7th time that I have posted to this thread.
And though I told myself that I wouldn't be posting again after my last comment {and after each other post], here I go again...

First off, I have enough words that I don't need people putting words in my mouth..[Meaning that I don't take kindly to people saying that I said something that I didn't say].

In NONE of my posts did I write that I consider the folks who blacken up to be racist. What I did say [and still believe] is that the custom is [though it may not have originally been] insensitive and offensive to me as an African American.

See this excerpt of my 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM post:
"That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Note that I said "insensitivity" and not "racism"..."
end of quote.

My ONLY mention of racism was when I took issue with an inference that could be made from a comment that El Greko wrote on 25 Feb 05 - 07:36 AM that racism is likely to occur when some citical number of Black people reside among mostly non-Black peoples.

The comment that El Greko made was:
"While there was contact with Africa from the ancient times, there had never been a sufficient number of Africans living there to give rise to racism - and they would have lived in the main towns only, anyway, so most Greeks would not have come into contact."

On 25 Feb 05 - 08:43 AM I wrote in response to this inference [which may or may not have been El Greko's intention}:

"Instead, I would rather praise the ancient Greeks for not having any color prejudice because they recognized that such feelings were silly or ignorant and/or because they recognized the Humanity and the merits of Africans who they had met or heard of, and/or because of their recognition of the rich heritage that that Greek culture had received from African culture".

end of quote

Note that I still did not use the word "racism".

I started my post to this thread agreeing with Joe Offer's post that "I don't think people would dare go blackface in the U.S. nowadays. Since the 1960's, it's been considered socially unacceptable. It was common in the 1950's and earlier."

My post on 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM reiterates this position and expands on it to say that in the United States public displays of blackening would probably be met with law suits.

Pied Piper, you said:

"Azizi points out that it would be impossible for white skinned people to "black up" in the US without it being considered racist and action taken"

Here's what I said:

"And this too I believe-given the history of the United States, if private groups were to publicly perform such blackening disguises here, then lawsuits would be filed to halt that practice. And I would be glad about that [and might even initiate or join in such a law suit]."

end of quote.

Again, I make no mention of racism.

In my posts I have consistently written that I find the practice of blakening up to be offensive to me. I have said that I would like moe information on the custom and in particular would be interested in reading about any studies made of it.

However, given what I have learned from reading this and other threads on blackening up, I have made my position clear that I believe that the contemporary practice of blackening up is counter productive to the goals of showing dignity and respect for all people.

I wrote that this was my position irrespective of whether White people went blackfaced or Black people did-and even gave an example of African Americans going blackfaced [the Mardi Gras Zulu kwewe].
If interested, posters here can google the words Mardi Gras Zulus to read about their history and African American reaction to it.

The crux of my position is so powerfully exemplified by Shirley Jackson's short story entitled "The Lottery" that Brucie provided a link to 25 Feb 05 - 10:13 AM.

I wrote that "If, in my opinion, a tradition does not do that [show dignity and respect for all people", then, as far as I'm concerned, to hell with the tradition."

I say this recognizing that there are many here who have good feelings about the ancient tradition of blackening up. I respect that you treasure this tradition, but that does not change my gut reaction of aversion to this practice which, I openly admit, was born and has been fed by my history and socialization as an African American.

All that being said, I would like to take this opportunity to send a special Shout Out and THANK YOU to Brucie and Milk Monitor.

I would also like to say to George {El Greko}, that if you mean 'sista sista' by your comment

"And I'd like one day to call you by what you call yourself (the double word), and mean it as an honourary title, without needing to worry (as I do) about offending you..."

then I would say this, although I really don't use 'sista sista' as a name, but have occasionally used it on Mudcat as a descriptive title -excluding my use of Sista in the Shane Diary posts as that character was certainly not meant to be taken seriously ;O))

I extend my right hand of fellowship to you George [and any others here and welcome you as a brother [or sister.]

I believe that people can disagree on certain points and still be friends [and part of the Mudcat family-and part of God's family].   

Peace,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 08:00 AM

Er.. the above statements refer to colour racism of course - because there had been racism in Britain against the French, Spanish, Turks and Arabs from waaayy before that! Simply because those were the races they were most in contact with.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:57 AM

Peter K, you are right about Britain's role in the slave trade, and that role is no loger hushed up. In the last year along, the BBC aired at least two major documentaries on the subject.

But their role was mainly as trader, not user of slaves, and as a result comparatively few slaves were employed in Britain itself, and few ordinary Brits had an opportunity to consider their stance against a person of colour. So (according to a statement I made in an earlier posting about having the object of prejudice available in sufficient numbers), there had been comparatively few racist incidents in Britain itself throughout the 18th-19th century. At the same time in the US there were many more such incidents - simply because there were more people of colour around to "be racist against", and therefore more overt racist crimes were perpetrated in full view of the populace.

Britons found their own racism only in the 20th century, when there was more ample opportunity through immigration.

So my statement about the "rich history" stands, I think.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:53 AM

The Cornish Guardian quote is ten months old, and as a local event they would cover the festival every year.

The True Brits report was from the festival that took place a year ago.

Maybe this year with the recent press coverage afforded to the event, more attention was paid to the elements that some folk found offensive. Only the film footage taken knows the answer to that one.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:40 AM

Perhaps it's that people weren't there and didn't see or hear what was going on? Perhaps it's because that's what it was like years ago and people haven't bothered to find out if that is what really is happening nowadays. It used to be like that, many years ago, but hasn't been for a very long time. Last year they had black and white faces - they were all painted with St Pirans flag, the Cornish Flag. The picture in WMN was from this years Dd and they had reporters and photographers there, other papers are still using archive pics. Perhaps it's just that puting inflammatory pics and text in sells newspapers?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:39 AM

In my honest opiion this has been blown out of all proportions and the papers are only fuelling it.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM

For generations Padstow folk have taken the opportunity to "black up" and parade around the town and its pubs singing minstrel songs which, although well-known, have not lost their politically incorrect words which some people have described, along with the tradition itself, as racist. "

A direct quote from The Cornish Guardian. Sorry there's no link to this either. Maybe the confusion lies in Cornish people having differing views on the tradition?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:28 AM

McGrath claims the "true brits" site (to which Milk Monitor gave a link near the top of the thread) is a joke. Or at best "not necessarily too reliable" (good example of qualifying an opinion to the point where it is absolutely meaningless). I read the entry about gurning at Egremont crab fair, which is a tradition I've been familiar with for years, and thought it was spot on. On that basis I am inclined to accept the report about Padstow. I am sure the racial elements were not invented, nor were inserted as a joke.

I still would not be in favour of any prosecution, because as I have said in other threads I support freedom of expression. Accordingly I don't like some aspects of the UK law; I think it is a mistake to prosecute people for what they say, as opposed to what they do, even if they are preaching British National Party filth, and I am outraged by the obscenity law and the intention to widen its scope rather than abolish it.

I'd just make one other point about something El Greko said: "Britain, while far from having an integrated multicultural society, does not have the "rich" history of racial bigotry and persecution that America has."

I suspect that this line of thought underpins a fair amount of UK thinking about attitudes to race in the US, but it is not entirely fair. The US is where many of the slaves traded in earlier centuries ended up, but Britain was at the heart of that trade and played a despicable part in it. Several UK cities owe their (now faded) grandeur to the wealth it created, Bristol probably being the worst example. Almost as bad as the trade itself has been the subsequent hypocrisy and the extent to which a shameful past has been airbrushed out of the histories of Britain and some of its cities.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:25 AM

John F
Its nice that as a guest you put your name there. :-)

Bearing in mind that I am interested in folklore and trying to keep traditions alive for our children and theirs, I do not consider Darkie to be about Black people as you would maybe consider it.

My understanding of Darky or Darkie in the folklore concept is as follows.

The term Darky or Darkie refers to people who black up their faces in disguise as part of Geese (pronounced geez) or guise dancing and is a tradition still carried out in Padstow.

There has been recent and erroneous linking with the "Black and White minstrels" and some unfounded concerns about racist overtones.

The origins of darkie day in fact go back a long way through generations of people disguising themselves so that they could get up to greater mischief back to a point in time where they may have had some significance in pagan ritual.

Whatever the background it has nothing to do with skin colour or the tradition would not have survived the vehement anti slave trade movement in Cornwall.

I personally feel that people are wrongly trying to attach a rascist theme to this.

Please bear in mind, that I am involved in folk music, not racism.

What I do object to is organisations like BNP attaching themselves to this sort of event, or people without the understanding, putting the wrong slant on things.

I see Morris dancing etc as tradition, not rascism.

As far as Brucie goes, he knows he can pm me if he is not happy with any comments I make and I can likewise.

I am more concerned with people who are taking this event out of context.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 07:17 AM

I thought you all might like to see a photo of this years Darkie Days as published in today's Western Morning News but on the website there is no photo, just one in the paper itself. The photo shows the Merrymakers wearing Cornwall rugby Shirts, tophats and bowler hats with tinsel around them, morning tail coats and jeans processing through the town. The Blacking on faces is exactly the same as you would have on any other mummers, black faced morris or molly side. Not a minstrel in sight! There are also comments from the Cornwall County Council, the Commission for Racial Equality and Council for Racial Equality in Cornwall who all categorically say they have made no complaint. The police sent ten police officers, three police vans and three more police with video cameras to the event on Boxing day. There were less than 20 Merrymakers! The songs they were singing were traditional Cornish folk songs - does this mean we can't sing Trelawney, Camborne Hill or the White Rose anymore?

It has also been pointed out to me, and I share this with you, that all over the west country there are hundreds of 'Darkie Lanes' or 'Darkie Streets' in villages and towns. It is a traditional name in the west country and has no racist overtones. Would they have to go too?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: sapper82
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:37 AM

And people wonder why the BNP are gaining so much ground in politics today.
The problems with atni-rascism in the UK is that it is too often seen to be anti-white, and anti-English.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Feb 05 - 06:35 AM

Azizi points out that it would be impossible for white skinned people to "black up" in the US without it being considered racist and action taken. I'm shore this is true but take of the black paint and you can join the perfectly legal NAZI party, which is banned here in Europe.
I think we're talking planks and splinters here.

PP