BS: They sure breed them young

Subject: BS: They sure breed them young
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 12:58 PM

It gets weirder and weirder, a four year old boy in North Carolina shot dead his six year old friend and a 14 year old boy in Pennsylvania shoots a teacher and wounds two pupils, what is going on in the country that is teaching the world the values of democracy?.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

Gun control

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 01:44 PM

... what is going on in the country that is teaching the world the values of democracy?

Do you have any idea how huge this country is? How interwoven all the problems are? But then you weren't really ASKING, were you-- more like, a little shit-flinging feels good to you today?

So everything's just peachy-keen in YOUR country? How nice for you that your country no longer bear the fresh stink of colonialism! Guess it makes it easier for you to smell others' shite and stir it up! What, YOU had nothing personally to do with colonialism? Nor did your Mudcat brothers and sisters have much to do with the stories you've dragged up!

Will a thread like this one aid anyone's enjoyment of one another at the next international Mudcat gathering? How about it, ard macha, do you enjoy singing alongside people you've insulted?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 01:59 PM

Susan - Take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard. He's just trying to forget about Charles and Camilla. It's hell when you don't know what to buy someone for a wedding present.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:02 PM

The dumbest thing to me is all the talk about banning TOY guns...


But they're gonna keep the f#cking REAL ones!?!?!?!?!?!

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:13 PM

I think the idea behind that Clinton is that they'll try the ban out on kids to see if it controls violence and if it doesn't work, at least they'll still be able to shoot 'em if needs be.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:19 PM

I don't make the connection between "the values of democracy" and kids with guns. Nor do I agree that the USA is teaching the world the values of democracy. I think countries fully understand those values without USA example and choose to accept them or not. The tragedies mentioned are the cost of doing business in a gun society, not necessarily a democracy. Weird, yes.

Too bad kids can get their hands on guns so readily. I worry that someday I'll know the victims, and when it involves kids there are victims on both sides of the trigger.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:27 PM

Facts are facts - some small children here have access to real guns and, somehow, have been brought up in a culture that condones their use.

The idea of censoring what is watched by children seems to be anathema to a certain section of the parents. So long as the kid is quiet they don't seem to care what they watch. Add to that the type of computer games on sale, that children may at some point have access to, and a lack of any real discipline in some homes and you can see where that is going.

The only difference, it seems to me, between the States and other countries is that guns are more freely available here. One has only to look at the Jamie Bulger case in Britain to know that disturbed children exist in other countries. They just use different methods of hurting others. What troubles me is that this trend seems to be on the increase and I wonder what kind of adults we are producing.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:49 PM

It's worse... a 4 year old shot a 2yr old in the head with his mother's gun... she'd bought it to protect her family from burglars..... who's going to protect her from her family?

The 2 yr old survived, but only just.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:57 PM

Sinn Fein / IRA protecting mudering criminals is a better example of the way a country should be run ??

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:03 PM

This is a big topic at school. I agree that the amount of violence children see has an impact on how they act. In addition, how many video games have any of you folks seen lately? While the games are rated for age appropriateness, the parents have to make sure they know what their children are playing (or watching). With so many shoot 'em up types of games, is it really any wonder that children shoot one another or teachers? In the video games, the players are encouraged to shoot other PEOPLE. When the player is shot "dead" he/she gets "another life." So..what kind of ideas are the children getting?

A whole other ball of wax is the issue of how the hell does a kid that young get a gun in the first place? Guns put up safely? Ammunition locked away in another location?

We have guns in our home to the tune of TWELVE of them...ranging from hand guns to rifles/shot guns and muzzleloaders. Some of them were built by my husband, others are for target shooting and hunting. We have had various children in and out of our home for years. The guns are put up, the room they are in is locked and the ammunition is hidden away and locked up. It's all secure.

So what is going on in the country that is teaching the world democracy is the same thing that is going on in every other country that has brought television and video games into the forefront of a child's world of entertainment. Hell...those shoot 'em up games ARE fun (Area 51 being one of my favorite)...but if you can't yet distinguish the difference between a game and reality...and no one supervises what you are doing....what do you THINK is going to happen?

Let an unsupervised child alone to watch people leaping out of trees and off of rooftops only to fly like a bird, how long do you think it would be before they give it a try?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:03 PM

Surely Sinn Fein/IRA have always been murdering criminals?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:20 PM

Sinn Fein, the UDC, the PLO, the PIRA, Aryan Nations, the Red Brigades, Hamas, the Viet Cong, the Mossad, the Khmer Rouge, al-Quadia, and a whole shitload of others.

Teach hate and you'll reap the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:31 PM

We've had a couple of other threads on this over the years. What I said then still holds, as far as I am concerned: click here.

Whoops, meant for that to go HERE!
kat

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 11:43 PM

ard mhaca:

how do you say "Schadenfreude" in gaelic?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 11:51 PM

A four-year-old shot a two-year-old? Not likely. How many of you have ever fired a gun and felt how much strength it takes to pull the trigger? More investigation is definitely called for in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Alba
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:25 AM

Hi leeneia,

This is the Media report on the incident: Clicky thingy

Unfortunately some Weapons demand very little effort to discharge.
Makes me think about the phrase "even a Child could do it"
Sad Story...sad World at times.
Blessings
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:33 AM

The strangest part of that report is that Saturday was 'the one day' that the 'mother' didnt secure the gun????

"The kids are at home honey,"
"OK leave the gun lying around sweetie."

She said it was in her purse to protect the family from burglars. Who protects her neighbours from her?

Crazy laws.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:38 AM

Sinn Fein/IRA have also been murdering children for years, ie bombs in waste bins etc.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:42 AM

Some say the devil is dead
The devil is dead
The devil is dead
Some say the devil is dead and buried in Killarney
More say he rose again
More say he rose again
More say he rose again and joined the British army.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

Leeneia - you said: A four-year-old shot a two-year-old? Not likely. How many of you have ever fired a gun and felt how much strength it takes to pull the trigger? More investigation is definitely called for in this case.

I'm sorry if it upsets you, but do you have any idea how light some of these triggers are? There are guns that only require a few pounds of pressure, specially made for 'ladies', who find pulling on a 5lb trigger too much.

And do you have any idea how strong the average child really is? My daughter, at 15months could lift and carry a concrete doorstop that weighs 6lbs. I'm sure you've had your finger held by a newborn baby and marvelled at the strength of its grip.

I have fired weapons, always in controlled conditions and never with live ammunition. I have fired both rifles and handguns. I've had to fire some of them right handed (I'm naturally left handed) and never had difficulty.

I'm sorry, but as far as I am concerned, there is no place for a gun of any description in a home, and especially a home that has a child in it. The post that Kat directs us to says more than I ever could about respect.

Actually I'm not sorry. I can think of no situation I might find myself or my family in that would EVER warrant carrying a weapon, loaded or otherwise.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:03 AM

Well said LTS. Also worryingly, the 4yr old pulled the trigger because he was 'angry' with the two year old. It wasn't a 'fell on it' type of accident, his reaction to anger was to shoot.
Yep, they breed them young.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:05 PM

Charlton Headcase President of the National Rifle Association stated " now gold darned it if that had been a rifle the kid couldn`t have lifted it much less fired it, be safe get a rifle"

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

Don't make things up. Charlton Heaston says enough dumb things that you don't have to. Stick to the facts please.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM

There are disturbed kids everywhere, that's true. But you don't need to be a disturbed kid to pull a trigger, especially if you are really young. You just need to be an ordinary kid who has access to a gun that is easy to fire.

One positive thing - every horrible incident like this is a further barrier against any threat that restrictions on gun ownership will ever be relaxed in my country.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

As a gun owner and a shooter of 48+ years, as one who has fired damned near every sort of small arm, from muzzleloaders to machine guns, I have come to one inescapable conclusion:

There is no such thing as an "accident" with a gun. It is ALWAYS carelessness.

It is carelessness to leave it where a child can get it. It is careless to care for a weapon so very poorly it malfunctions. It is carelessness to leave a loaded weapon around. It is carelessness to pull a shotgun by the barrel. It is carelessness not to "clear" a weapon after use. It is carelessness not to be sure of your target and backstop. Carelessness. And it's about time we started reporting such stories as the carelessness they are instead of attributing them to accidents over which we have no control.

(And ditto for car "accidents.")

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

If a drunk driver kills someone people scream manslaughter. But if an idiot kills someone without meaning to it's carelessness?????
The mother should be tried for accomplice to manslaughter, but the law don't work that way. Stupid people and stupider laws.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: open mike
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 09:40 PM

and another shooting incident..
in a courtroom..
judge and some others shot..
by a prisoner who used the guard's gun

and last weekend 8 people were shot at
a church..the minister and his child
died, as did 6 others. his wife and
othere were wounded too.

this was by apparently gently fellow
who liked to grow vegetables..

neithere of these shooters were young,
but more news in the shooting dept.
scary.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:08 PM

don't get me wrong - I do not believe for a moment that there should be a gun in a house with children. However, I'm skeptical about a lot of "accidental shootings."

Are we supposed to believe that a four-year-old got angry, went and found his mother's purse, opened it, abstracted the gun, took off the safety (if any were on) and shot his sibling? A four-year-old is more likely to react by screaming and stamping, don't you think?

There was a tragedy here where a 15-year-old "accidentally" shot his girl-friend. He accidentally had the gun, he accidentally had all the safeties off, he accidentally had it aimed right at her, there was a round in the chamber, and he accidentally fired the trigger. Like hell.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:40 PM

I agree totally with Rapaire on this one. It's just carelessness.

Even If you belive that you need the gun readily acessible to protect yourself, storing it out of sight and out of reach of children, with safies on, and prefably unloaded is just common sense.

And a gun licence, like a driving licence could be sensible. If you wish to control something leathal, you must first demonstrate a minimum competence.

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:56 AM

2 year olds might react by screaming and stamping, 4 year olds are much more controlled and devious. My daughter, when 2, would scream and bang her head on the floor. When 4, she was more than capable of finding something that could be used as a weapon and would wait for her little revenges.

And if a 4 year old can work the childproofed video, childproof locks, childproof safety gates, Transformer toys, digital camera or the many electronic toys available, they are more than capable of taking off the safety catch, especially if they have seen mummy or daddy do it. Do not underestimate the capabilities of a 4 year old child.

However, the 'accident' with the 15yr old, yes.. at 15 you should be capable of preventing such accidents. That one should be put down to lack of teaching, lack of respect for weaponry and sheer blind stupidity.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 05:18 AM

If we give ALL Americans free guns and ammo, how long will it take them to wipe themselves out ?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 06:44 AM

I think guns are fine in any home where the owners are conscientious (or however you spell it) about the care and use of the gun. Guns are used for protection, hunting or even just target shooting. In my family, respect for guns is taught early. My husband's mother showed him what a gun can do when he was 4 years old. She set up a coffee can full of water and shot it in front of him so he would know exactly what kind of damage it could do. In addition, the use of the gun for both of our families resulted in us being able to have food on the table. In my family, 4 out of the 5 children in the house hunted deer for the venison...never for trophy racks or any useless waste of an animal.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 06:57 AM

I was born at a very early age myself.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Moses
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:19 AM

I have never felt the need to have a weapon available to protect myself from anyone. I consider myself fortunate to live in a society (UK) that, in the main, can conduct it's daily business without fear of being struck by a stray bullet or accosted by an armed assailant.

There are exceptions, I know:- Hungerford, Dunblane - but I doubt that posession of guns would have prevented those victims from being attacked.

When will the USA wake up to the fact that it IS possession of guns by the general public that makes it a much less safe society. The gun laws seem to be so entrenched that normally clear-thinking and intellegent people have been brainwashed into thinking that posession of guns somehow makes them safer. It doesn't. It just makes them think they are.

Christine

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:43 AM

No doubt the NRA will wheel out that arse Charlton Heston to repeat his mantra ' guns don't kill people, people do.

If the security guard had not been armed the man in the dock wouldn't have been able to grab his gun and kill the judge and several other people.

Why is the logic so hard to grasp, if guns are not available then they cant kill.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM

I think that any adult who leaves a firearm -- even an unloaded one -- where a child can get at it SHOULD be prosecuted for, at the very least, criminal negligence.

If you drive drunk, you are careless and should be held just as responsible as the careless gunowner.

My guns are locked up, and each has a trigger guard. What pistols I have are ALSO locked into cases (that's three locks for a pistol, two for a rifle). The shotguns are ALSO disassembled. Ammunition is storaged in a seperate, locked, container in a seperate room (my workshop) that has a locked door (power saws are just as dangerous as a gun).

Should someone break in it would, under NORMAL circumstances (and recently I did keep a .38, ammo seperate, by my bed) I would have to: 1) go to the basement, 2) unlock and open the gun storage, 3) choose a weapon and possibly assemble it, 4) unlock the workshop, 5) unlock the ammo chest, 6) load the weapon, 7) go back upstairs to confront the invader. Faster and simpler to use the 3-cell Maglite in the bedroom as a club -- it's quite capable of breaking a wrist.

About the Atlanta courtroom shootings -- violent offenders are usually brought into court in handcuffs or chained to a belt, I thought. Rape is a violent crime. Who screwed up?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM

Oh, by the way --

the last statistics I saw said that there were 1.6 firearms per household in this (Southeastern Idaho). That being the case, if we're so damned careless and bloodthirsty why aren't we wading in blood? Why are "accidental" shootings and hunting "accidents" declining, and have been for better than 10 years?

Could it be that your judgements are based upon media coverage -- which covers the deviations from the norm (just as in the UK) -- and not actual fact?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:35 AM

Just an observation: A can of spray paint doesn't need to be locked up and can be quite disarming when sprayed in the face of an up close and personal attacker.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:39 AM

Hmmm....would merely piss off a bear.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:02 PM

Presumably, one was referring to at home, vis-a-vis Rapaire's post.

At the very least it would be a blind bear, eh? Of course if one is that close to a bear it probably doesn't matter!

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:55 PM

Uh, I AM referring to at home!!!!!!   :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

...why aren't we wading in blood?"

Relative to a whole lot of other countries, would it be that unfair to say that in fact the USA is metaphorically "wading in blood"? At least, if the death rate from shootings in the UK were to go up to the US level, that is the kind of way it would certainly be described.

Here are some statistics

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:33 PM

jaysus someone's shot him.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM

I lost the end of that post I made. Here it is:

Here are those statistics - Firearm-related deaths in the United States and 35 other high- and upper-middle-income countries.

Mind, it's not as simple as just a matter of gun possession, or even gun control. There are a fair number of countries with high levels of ownership of guns, and with relatively liberal gun laws (ie, not very restrictve ones, I'm using "liberal" in a more traditional way than it sometime sets used in some places), with death rates from shooting a lot lower than in the USA. There are clearly other factors involved.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:53 PM

I grew up with handguns and rifles in our home. We were all shown how they operated and taught gun safety. It would never have occurred to any of us to take one out without Dad's permission and supervision - so thought my parents.

Years later my brothers confessed to rough housing in their bedroom with a loaded 22. They shot a hole in the ceiling and repaired it with crayons. Guns have to be kept under lock and key to be safe from children. Of course, if they are there to protect you from a burglar, lock and key defeat the purpose.

As to breeding them young, I do not believe that a four year old has the capacity to understand the permanence of death. I don't believe a four year old is capable of murder. My opinion only.

SINS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM

A four year old probably doesn't have the capacity to understand death or the concept of murder... but it does have the capacity to know that some things hurt other people. The discussion above was more about the capability of the child to use the firearm, not the reasoning behind it. The child in question keeps asking where his brother is, not realising that he may well have killed him.

Murder is usually classed as 'with malice aforethought', if the child were going to be charged with any crime, it could only be manslaughter.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

The sole reason that I recently slept with an unloaded (although the ammo was very quickly available) gun was because of home invasions in the neighborhood. The police caught the criminals and I locked up the gun and ammunition again.

Since then (yesterday!) my wife found my nightstick (mine's hardwood and the thong is at the bottom). I'll keep that -- I know how to use it effectively and it will work very well against a home invader. My guns will remain locked up, except for when I take them to a range for target shooting or out hunting (a rarity these days, I'm afraid).

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM

Let me say this, too: I am not at all opposed to rational and reasonable gun laws, or being required to have a license to use firearms. I ask only that they be reasonable and NOT subject to hysterics and political opportunism.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 12:22 AM

"Violence In Media
Violence grabs viewers' attention. It can create emotional shock or set the stage for eye-catching special effects. It's a quick and easy way to show conflict. It's no wonder that it appeals to kids.

According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, kids see an estimated 10,000 acts of violence per year on television. By the time a child graduates from high school she or he will have witnessed 18,000 violent deaths on TV. Violence can be portrayed as glamorous on TV, in video games and movies. Television often teaches that violence is as a way to resolve conflict. It is well documented that kids who watch violent TV are more likely to act in an aggressive manner."

The above is from

pbskids.org/dontbuyit/parentsguide.html