BS: They sure breed them young

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:19 AM

"Marge, when I'm holding a gun I know how God feels, when He's holding a gun."

- The Simpsons

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,Jake Turner
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 11:44 PM

Red Lake Shooting.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Mar 05 - 12:41 PM

I could be resurrecting this thread again and again, is it not time for the land of the gun to heed the saner members of your society and restrict your gun laws. I refer to the latest shooting in Minnesota, another ten poor souls shot down because of easy access to a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 04:01 AM

I used many weapons during my time in the army, it was seen by most of us as just a bloody nuisance because once fired they had to be bloodywell cleaned again.

On a lighter note, we were once kept back from going on leave because the small arms were not clean enough for the Squadron Leader,
we told him we did not have enough cleaning material, so he ripped off his shirt sleeves and threw them at us and said use that then.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 02:17 AM

Liz, I left the UK in 74, and at that time I'd seen no TV sexual activity. Here in NZ I've seen none, not graphic, anyway. We did catch a scene of a squaddie having a knee-trembler with his greatcoat around his partner, and I had to explain to my teenager what they were doing. That was a UK production.

Guest Jake, I'm an ex-serviceman like many on Mudcat, I've fired military weapons up to the Bren, I've hunted as well. I can honestly say that I've never felt the elation that you describe, and I'm glad to report that. I'm totally in rapport with Rapaire here. If you are one of those sick people who like the idea of holding anothers life in your hands, then you should most definately NEVER get access to any kind of weapon.
I wonder how long that sick murderer in Hungerford had been creeping around the woods, wearing Camo, pointing his loaded rifle at picnicers

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: heric
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:45 PM

I guess I can understand that accuracy thing, Rapaire, as in the joy of golfing. The fantasy time occurred to me when I was actually thinking about target shooting with rapid fire assault weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:52 PM

If handling a gun gives you a feeling of power and euphoria you shouldn't have one and shouldn't be allowed near them.

As for target shooting, I am a target shooting. When I sight I see a black speck, and I am trying to send a 40-grain peice of lead into the very center of that speck. I try to do this several times -- to send one bullet into the hole made by the previous one. To do this, I need to "shoot between heartbeats" while taking into account the wind's force and direction, changing light conditions, the trajectory of the bullet at the known distance to the target, and compensate for the minute differences in cartridges. The concentration required is total, and I can only compare it to Zen archery (if you're an archer you'll understand). Sorry, but there is no room for fantasy.

Boab, your neighbors never disgraced their weapons. I would that those in my country could say the same -- and I repeat my earlier assertion: there are no accidents with weapons, only carelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: heric
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 02:39 PM

I used a Colt .45 and some other large pistol another time. While impressed with the craftsmanship, it was not much of a rush for me, either. I can only assume that target shooters get their fun from "just imagine" scenarios going on in their little heads.

I had a handun brandished on me late night in downtown Vancouver by a guy who was very, very short.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:41 AM

Perhaps it does that for you Jake - the only times I've held a gun was when I was in the cadet corps at school, many years ago.

I seem to remember my typical sensation was of having to waste my time playing these silly games, and knowing I'd be getting into trouble for not cleaning the bloody things, or for handling them the wrong way, or being a rotten shot. Certainly no sense of exhilaration and empowerment and that.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,Jake Turner
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:00 AM

No Liz, I was talking about holding the gun.
If the gun is being held against you, you automatically feel differently.
Unless you also have a gun.


JT

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:26 AM

"The right to bear arms is one of the most basic rights of Americans. It keeps the King of England from moving into your house!"

- Krusty The Clown The Simpsons

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:13 AM

Jake, you aren't a 4 year old whose little brother is annoying you...   If it were your child or your head it was being held against, you might feel a little differently.

Sure it gives you all those feelings, but then so does holding a new born baby... much as I hate babies... I know which I'd prefer to hold.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Boab
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:00 AM

Can any American say this? I lived in southwest Scotland for sixty years, and cannot recall even one instance of murder by fire-arm anywhere near our area. Accident, yes,almost 100% shotgun. Suicide, a very rare occurrence.And I wish this absolutely brainless guff about "guns don't kill people, ---people kill people" would fade from the muddled minds. The real truth is that UNSTABLE PEOPLE with GUNS kill people.
While we're at it, let's not get down [low] to the old chestnut about knives, axes etc.. those crazy kids at Columbine would have been felled by a chair or some other way long before the slaughter reached a fraction of the level it did, had they used such weapons on that awful day. Likewise with the loonie who went berserk in Dunblane Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,Jake Turner
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 01:52 AM

Are people missing a salient point here?
Holding a gun makes one feel great.
You get a surge of adrenaline.
You feel powerful.
You ARE powerful.
You can, if desired, kill something.
Better than any drug.
There is intense pleasure involved.
Having a gun does NOT mean you will use it.
People with guns will not easily be persuaded to stop having them.

JT

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:33 AM

I know, Gurney. And I wonder if the parents think that the kids came from the cabbage patch or where.

"Look, Harry! A brand new baby under this leaf!"
"Not now, Myra, I'm a-rubbin' ma gun."

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 06:00 AM

You've never seen shagging on TV?

You're watching the wrong station!! Here in the UK we have a whole station dedicated to it - it was originally Channel 4, which specialised in naughty things, but now Channel 5 has taken the baton and boy, is it running with it!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 03:51 AM

Ted beat me to it, they usually do breed them young.

Strange morality we live with these days. Every day on TV we see at least a couple of murders and sundry other violent acts, but in 50 years of watching, I've never seen (on TV I'm talking about) anyone in coitus. So, killing is OK for the kids to watch and play computer games at, but shagging is so immoral that no-one is allowed see it?

I'm not wanting to, you understand. It's a participatory game, after all. I just question the lop-sided morality.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:37 PM

No. They did it by the shows they watched.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:30 PM

Of course it might be the parents were accurate in what they said there, brucie, but the kids were lousy at mental arithmetic...

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 08:26 PM

I asked a parent at a parent/teacher interview how much time per week his child spent watching TV, playing video games, etc. The response was "about two hours a day." When I asked the child as part of a class exercise, the child responded "about thirty hours a week." OOOOOOOOOOOOKAY.

Of course the parents were responsible. The kid was a child. Who the heck do people THINK should bear the responsibility?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:02 PM

Yes, it always seems to be someone else's responsibility to instill any sense of right and wrong in the kids.

But these days, if a teacher or a policeman attempts to discipline unruly children in any way the parents have a tendency to jump on them.

Definitely a lose/lose situation.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:28 AM

I'll point out again that my weapons and ammunition (what there is of it) are as secure as I can make them.

And the only people who live here are two adults -- both of whom are now over 60 (and glad to have made it, let me tell you!).

Like giving blood, I can only speak and act for myself -- I can't ensure that others will do as I do. BUT I can do my bit, and if everyone did....

I think that parents must, absolutely MUST, accept a chunk of the blame. They must teach children responsibility for their actions, and I don't see that happening on a large scale -- not anywhere in the "Western world." Yes, individuals do teach their children, but it's not a society-wide thing.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 06:45 AM

That comes down to parental carelessness - in the same way as there are parents to leave medication, sharp knives, cleaning fluids and whatever else lying around where young children can get at them.

And human beings being what they are I don't think that will ever change.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:34 AM

And how much of that violence is in 'innocent cartoons'? Did we not all enjoy watching Daffy Duck get blown up many many times during Wabbit Season?

Life is not safe, but surely we don't have to go around making it worse by having loaded weapons lying around?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Peace
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 12:22 AM

"Violence In Media
Violence grabs viewers' attention. It can create emotional shock or set the stage for eye-catching special effects. It's a quick and easy way to show conflict. It's no wonder that it appeals to kids.

According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, kids see an estimated 10,000 acts of violence per year on television. By the time a child graduates from high school she or he will have witnessed 18,000 violent deaths on TV. Violence can be portrayed as glamorous on TV, in video games and movies. Television often teaches that violence is as a way to resolve conflict. It is well documented that kids who watch violent TV are more likely to act in an aggressive manner."

The above is from

pbskids.org/dontbuyit/parentsguide.html

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:29 PM

Let me say this, too: I am not at all opposed to rational and reasonable gun laws, or being required to have a license to use firearms. I ask only that they be reasonable and NOT subject to hysterics and political opportunism.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:49 PM

The sole reason that I recently slept with an unloaded (although the ammo was very quickly available) gun was because of home invasions in the neighborhood. The police caught the criminals and I locked up the gun and ammunition again.

Since then (yesterday!) my wife found my nightstick (mine's hardwood and the thong is at the bottom). I'll keep that -- I know how to use it effectively and it will work very well against a home invader. My guns will remain locked up, except for when I take them to a range for target shooting or out hunting (a rarity these days, I'm afraid).

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:45 PM

A four year old probably doesn't have the capacity to understand death or the concept of murder... but it does have the capacity to know that some things hurt other people. The discussion above was more about the capability of the child to use the firearm, not the reasoning behind it. The child in question keeps asking where his brother is, not realising that he may well have killed him.

Murder is usually classed as 'with malice aforethought', if the child were going to be charged with any crime, it could only be manslaughter.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:53 PM

I grew up with handguns and rifles in our home. We were all shown how they operated and taught gun safety. It would never have occurred to any of us to take one out without Dad's permission and supervision - so thought my parents.

Years later my brothers confessed to rough housing in their bedroom with a loaded 22. They shot a hole in the ceiling and repaired it with crayons. Guns have to be kept under lock and key to be safe from children. Of course, if they are there to protect you from a burglar, lock and key defeat the purpose.

As to breeding them young, I do not believe that a four year old has the capacity to understand the permanence of death. I don't believe a four year old is capable of murder. My opinion only.

SINS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM

I lost the end of that post I made. Here it is:

Here are those statistics - Firearm-related deaths in the United States and 35 other high- and upper-middle-income countries.

Mind, it's not as simple as just a matter of gun possession, or even gun control. There are a fair number of countries with high levels of ownership of guns, and with relatively liberal gun laws (ie, not very restrictve ones, I'm using "liberal" in a more traditional way than it sometime sets used in some places), with death rates from shooting a lot lower than in the USA. There are clearly other factors involved.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:33 PM

jaysus someone's shot him.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 02:26 PM

...why aren't we wading in blood?"

Relative to a whole lot of other countries, would it be that unfair to say that in fact the USA is metaphorically "wading in blood"? At least, if the death rate from shootings in the UK were to go up to the US level, that is the kind of way it would certainly be described.

Here are some statistics

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:55 PM

Uh, I AM referring to at home!!!!!!   :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 12:02 PM

Presumably, one was referring to at home, vis-a-vis Rapaire's post.

At the very least it would be a blind bear, eh? Of course if one is that close to a bear it probably doesn't matter!

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:39 AM

Hmmm....would merely piss off a bear.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:35 AM

Just an observation: A can of spray paint doesn't need to be locked up and can be quite disarming when sprayed in the face of an up close and personal attacker.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM

Oh, by the way --

the last statistics I saw said that there were 1.6 firearms per household in this (Southeastern Idaho). That being the case, if we're so damned careless and bloodthirsty why aren't we wading in blood? Why are "accidental" shootings and hunting "accidents" declining, and have been for better than 10 years?

Could it be that your judgements are based upon media coverage -- which covers the deviations from the norm (just as in the UK) -- and not actual fact?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM

I think that any adult who leaves a firearm -- even an unloaded one -- where a child can get at it SHOULD be prosecuted for, at the very least, criminal negligence.

If you drive drunk, you are careless and should be held just as responsible as the careless gunowner.

My guns are locked up, and each has a trigger guard. What pistols I have are ALSO locked into cases (that's three locks for a pistol, two for a rifle). The shotguns are ALSO disassembled. Ammunition is storaged in a seperate, locked, container in a seperate room (my workshop) that has a locked door (power saws are just as dangerous as a gun).

Should someone break in it would, under NORMAL circumstances (and recently I did keep a .38, ammo seperate, by my bed) I would have to: 1) go to the basement, 2) unlock and open the gun storage, 3) choose a weapon and possibly assemble it, 4) unlock the workshop, 5) unlock the ammo chest, 6) load the weapon, 7) go back upstairs to confront the invader. Faster and simpler to use the 3-cell Maglite in the bedroom as a club -- it's quite capable of breaking a wrist.

About the Atlanta courtroom shootings -- violent offenders are usually brought into court in handcuffs or chained to a belt, I thought. Rape is a violent crime. Who screwed up?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:43 AM

No doubt the NRA will wheel out that arse Charlton Heston to repeat his mantra ' guns don't kill people, people do.

If the security guard had not been armed the man in the dock wouldn't have been able to grab his gun and kill the judge and several other people.

Why is the logic so hard to grasp, if guns are not available then they cant kill.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Moses
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:19 AM

I have never felt the need to have a weapon available to protect myself from anyone. I consider myself fortunate to live in a society (UK) that, in the main, can conduct it's daily business without fear of being struck by a stray bullet or accosted by an armed assailant.

There are exceptions, I know:- Hungerford, Dunblane - but I doubt that posession of guns would have prevented those victims from being attacked.

When will the USA wake up to the fact that it IS possession of guns by the general public that makes it a much less safe society. The gun laws seem to be so entrenched that normally clear-thinking and intellegent people have been brainwashed into thinking that posession of guns somehow makes them safer. It doesn't. It just makes them think they are.

Christine

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 06:57 AM

I was born at a very early age myself.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: LilyFestre
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 06:44 AM

I think guns are fine in any home where the owners are conscientious (or however you spell it) about the care and use of the gun. Guns are used for protection, hunting or even just target shooting. In my family, respect for guns is taught early. My husband's mother showed him what a gun can do when he was 4 years old. She set up a coffee can full of water and shot it in front of him so he would know exactly what kind of damage it could do. In addition, the use of the gun for both of our families resulted in us being able to have food on the table. In my family, 4 out of the 5 children in the house hunted deer for the venison...never for trophy racks or any useless waste of an animal.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 05:18 AM

If we give ALL Americans free guns and ammo, how long will it take them to wipe themselves out ?

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 03:56 AM

2 year olds might react by screaming and stamping, 4 year olds are much more controlled and devious. My daughter, when 2, would scream and bang her head on the floor. When 4, she was more than capable of finding something that could be used as a weapon and would wait for her little revenges.

And if a 4 year old can work the childproofed video, childproof locks, childproof safety gates, Transformer toys, digital camera or the many electronic toys available, they are more than capable of taking off the safety catch, especially if they have seen mummy or daddy do it. Do not underestimate the capabilities of a 4 year old child.

However, the 'accident' with the 15yr old, yes.. at 15 you should be capable of preventing such accidents. That one should be put down to lack of teaching, lack of respect for weaponry and sheer blind stupidity.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:40 PM

I agree totally with Rapaire on this one. It's just carelessness.

Even If you belive that you need the gun readily acessible to protect yourself, storing it out of sight and out of reach of children, with safies on, and prefably unloaded is just common sense.

And a gun licence, like a driving licence could be sensible. If you wish to control something leathal, you must first demonstrate a minimum competence.

Bunnhabhain

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:08 PM

don't get me wrong - I do not believe for a moment that there should be a gun in a house with children. However, I'm skeptical about a lot of "accidental shootings."

Are we supposed to believe that a four-year-old got angry, went and found his mother's purse, opened it, abstracted the gun, took off the safety (if any were on) and shot his sibling? A four-year-old is more likely to react by screaming and stamping, don't you think?

There was a tragedy here where a 15-year-old "accidentally" shot his girl-friend. He accidentally had the gun, he accidentally had all the safeties off, he accidentally had it aimed right at her, there was a round in the chamber, and he accidentally fired the trigger. Like hell.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: open mike
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 09:40 PM

and another shooting incident..
in a courtroom..
judge and some others shot..
by a prisoner who used the guard's gun

and last weekend 8 people were shot at
a church..the minister and his child
died, as did 6 others. his wife and
othere were wounded too.

this was by apparently gently fellow
who liked to grow vegetables..

neithere of these shooters were young,
but more news in the shooting dept.
scary.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 06:55 PM

If a drunk driver kills someone people scream manslaughter. But if an idiot kills someone without meaning to it's carelessness?????
The mother should be tried for accomplice to manslaughter, but the law don't work that way. Stupid people and stupider laws.

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

As a gun owner and a shooter of 48+ years, as one who has fired damned near every sort of small arm, from muzzleloaders to machine guns, I have come to one inescapable conclusion:

There is no such thing as an "accident" with a gun. It is ALWAYS carelessness.

It is carelessness to leave it where a child can get it. It is careless to care for a weapon so very poorly it malfunctions. It is carelessness to leave a loaded weapon around. It is carelessness to pull a shotgun by the barrel. It is carelessness not to "clear" a weapon after use. It is carelessness not to be sure of your target and backstop. Carelessness. And it's about time we started reporting such stories as the carelessness they are instead of attributing them to accidents over which we have no control.

(And ditto for car "accidents.")

Subject: RE: BS: They sure breed them young
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 04:35 PM

There are disturbed kids everywhere, that's true. But you don't need to be a disturbed kid to pull a trigger, especially if you are really young. You just need to be an ordinary kid who has access to a gun that is easy to fire.

One positive thing - every horrible incident like this is a further barrier against any threat that restrictions on gun ownership will ever be relaxed in my country.