BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: John P
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM

Dave,
Of course the founding fathers were heavily influenced by Christianity. The point is that it doesn't matter. A majority of Americans today are also heavily influenced by Christianity. That doesn't matter, either. Our courts have been fairly consistent in interpreting the Constitution's injunction against establishing a relgion to mean that our government can't, in fact, establish a religion. Can you really be honest with yourself if you say that putting scripture -- including an order to have no other gods -- on the walls of the courthouse isn't an attempt to establish a religion?

Even if you can convince yourself that it isn't such an attempt, can you try to understand that there are millions of American citizens who aren't Christians and who feel excluded from equal protection under the law because of the scriptures on the walls of the halls of justice? I feel discriminated against. Is the governmentally sanctioned statement of someone else's faith really worth that to you?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:25 AM

John, What I fail to understand is the irrational urge to trash the very symbols and foundations stone of American Law. These symbols are an attestment to the fair application of law to everyone, Non Christian and Christian alike. The US constitution is the most remarkable document ever written, it should be a comfort to all to see these foundations displayed on the halls of justice. They are alongside and below Pagan symbols too as I have already mentioned above, without any objection raised by anyone to their display.
There are a number of people posting here who completely refuse to see the facts. The United States Constitution is firmly established under these laws, and any attempt to deny this is ludicrous.

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:38 AM

official Library of Congress statement

HOLY SHIT! Then it HAS to be the One True Word of God!

The US constitution is the most remarkable document ever written
spoken like a mindless Jingo.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:07 AM

6. I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7. Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10. And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

Where is this in the Constitution?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:16 AM

The foundation of American Law, Dave, are the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, and the original Constitution.

John is correct when he says religion does not matter. It has no place in the commons of social discourse. Lawmakers and voters should by trying to discharge their responsibility as citizens of a nation under law, not trying to dramatize their kooky versions of an undefinable metaphysic. To resort to religion in this realm of discourse is as bad as resorting to voodoo or alchemy.

Seek all the blessing you want to seek from the Infinite, in the privacy or your home or among your congregation. When you come to the commons to debate social engineering and the best way to build free nations and have free people, leave your religion the hell out of it. It only clouds issues and makes nonsense of what must be made clear and sensible if it is to work.

If any of the postulates from the Ten Commandments, the Wisdom of Lao-tzu, the Koran or any other source (including Marx and Darwin) are genuinely workable and should stand, by reason of merit as social guides, on a par with the fundamentals mentioned above, let them find their way into the common discourse, written in clear and common language, leaving out obscure magick and un-testable claimed authorities. Surely we have had enough foolish incantations. I, at least, am sick unto laughter at the pseudo-reverent, arrant Mongolism of humans running around scraping for imagined companions.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:17 AM

It's just politically irksome for many to accept that those of Christian heritage could possibly devise such a great and fair and workable constitution. Any reminder of that reality flies in the face of the current distortion that we are force-fed -- that Christianity is a cruel and oppressive religion.

It's not the religious content that is prompting the move to ban all religious symbolism -- it's that it's to hard to completely revise our history with these reminders that point contrary to the secularist picture of a cruel and oppressive Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:36 AM

If the issue was as simply as you put, Amos, there'd probably be few like me arguing with you. The reality though is that there is an attempt to disqualify any moral (morals - the stuff of law) belief that one may arrive at via religious belief from the public legal debate.

I've said many times that democracy has the means to naturally weed out that which is idiosyncratically religious without attacking individual groups. If a moral issue is brought to the public arena with only religion as its source of reason, it will likely not survive democracy. It is only those things that the religious and non-religious alike agree on to a greater degree that become our code.

Religion does not have to be rendered impotent for democracy to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:49 AM

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
• "[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty."
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] | photographs of this letter: Page 2.... page 1.... page 3... page 4
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
" He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all." [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

" Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system." [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
• "Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" "Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
" Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits."

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
" God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?" [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
"The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States."

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock: | Portrait of John Hancock
• "In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America's many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry: | Portrait of Patrick Henry
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed."
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."

John Jay: | Portrait of John Jay
" Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

"Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson." [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
" The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus."

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever." (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
• "It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot's Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
" We've staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
" An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia" Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

"It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other."

• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us."
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; "Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America's Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution | Portrait of James McHenry
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse: | portrait of Jedediah Morse
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg | Statue of John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
" It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author."
" The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal." "The Existence of God--1810"

Benjamin Rush:
• "I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism." "By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds." [Letter written (1790's) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• "Christianity is the only true and perfect religion."
• "If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary."

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education"
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
" I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
" Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit." [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
" At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship."
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster: | Portrait of Noah Webster
" The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men."

"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people."
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

"The Bible was America's basic textbook
in all fields." [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

"Education is useless without the Bible" [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..." | photo of Farewell address original manuscript


" It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ." [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words "So help me God!" to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington's adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], "Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

" O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon."
" I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me."
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
Click here for George Washington's Prayer Journal

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson: | Portrait of James Wilson
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
" Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof" [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• "Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea" –Ben Franklin


• "The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night." --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

Click here for a larger image

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
"For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us."

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:51 AM

Sorry, I forgot to add.. Refute what these esteemed Gentlemen said and wrote not what I said and wrote..

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:48 PM

Without challenging the words of anybody in the preceding ten posts I would not the following:

Christianity nor any religion has remained immutable from its founding. The tender sympathies of our founding fathers with respect to Christianity as promoter of liberty represents well over a millenium and a half of developing understanding, most importantly culminating in the period of rationalism surmounting theology called The Enlightenment. Christianity has still been used to buttress the Divine Right of Royalty.

One fascinating aspect of the law as we practice it is the considerationi of motivation toward establishing a crime and determining a penalty: viz. If I was careless on a job and dropped a wrench and it hit Mr. Smith in the head and sent him to the hereafter, I may not be put on trial at all, and if I am, it will be over claims of negligence or indifference. If I creep up behind Mr. Smith and brain him with that same wrench, I may go on criminal trial for first degree murder with my life on the line. Mr. Smith is just as dead either way, but I think every human being on earth would perceive justice in the distinction being made as to how he came to be dead.

I have the same feeling about the Ten Commandments in public. If they crop up in an illustration or as part of a display of the concepts behind our judicial system, I have no problem with 'em. If it comes from an avowedly activist source, seeking as an act of power to install them, I consider it to be as the good Reverend said at the outset of this thread "blasphemy".

I believe the framers and our American forefolk used the language of God in their everyday talk. Many of us American descendents use that sort of language in our everyday talk. But like ourselves, they were creatures of their time (lucky for us). There is a bit of selective quotations in the above posts, to bring in Jesus Christ. I have seen numerous references to our forefathers and it is clear that some of them, not all of them, appreciated the wisdom of Jesus' words in the New Testament without necessarily subscribing to the theology of him as the Son of God. Furthermore, there are some explicit wordings I'd call to your attention: From the Declaration: "The laws of nature, and of nature's God". This is a deist concept of God, explicitly not Christian, and ties into the new age in which Galileo established that the Church (any church) was a poor source of astronomical theories, and that Isaac Newton and many others had established that the world as we know it operates on highly logical and mathematical principles, so that God is not necessary to make every Sparrow fall, God has only(!) to establish the inverse square law of gravitational attraction.
I think we all of us are even now incredibly lucky to have had such great people at work two hundred forty years ago. They were Christian folk, but they were no 'mere' Christian folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM

Why should anyone refute? No one is disputing the faith of any founders. These men (and all men and women in the USA) are (and should) be free to express their religious beliefs in letters to their sons, conversations with coworkers, whatever. Precisely the fact that - in spite of all their talk of God in their personal writings, and even at the constitutional convention - God and Jesus are not mentioned in the Constitution makes a GIGANTIC point doesn't it?

Is there any reason why religious people (off whatever religion) can't found a completely secular institution?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

Wow, Dave!! Impressive piece of work, I must say.

Odd how Jefferson's wall of separation is conveniently omitted from your list of selected assertions.

I believe that following a good number of the Ten Commandments is vital, not because of their theism but because they are viable MORAL precepts.

I believe that it is possible, as John wrote above, to bring into the framework of law those moral precepts that are necessary to the public good framed as clear and enlightened guidance. But to the degree these make some assertion about their Authority other than natural law, they will be failures, complexified and tangled up with the unseeable, the untestable, the unworkable, the authoritarian, the arbitrary and the dogmatic. These are the characteristics of bad law.

They may or may not also be the characteristics of bad religion, but I am not in a position to judge other men's religions. That is why I do not want them entered in to law.

Christianity has much to recommend it in terms of ethical insights. To complicate the social framework by adding to those the heavy and unmanageable freight of after-death experiences, angels and deities, demons and afterlife destinations is to make ridiculous the noble effort of building a better civilization.

Let those insights become, for examples, laws against adultery, laws that seek to love their neighbors as themselves, laws that discourage covetousness if possible, but for the love of all that is good about the open association of free men, leave religiosity out of the commons. It is as useful as a beached whale at a garden party.

I consider the religious views of the people you cite to be immaterial, but that they want to dick around with the assertion that some form of Christianity was built in to the Constitution -- which prohibits the nation's lawmakers from establishing ANY religion for good and sufficient reason -- is just, to my mind, absurd.

I appreciate your scholarship, and in no way do I mean to trifle with your or anyone else's religious beliefs. But you will concur that even under the umbrella of Christianity there as many versions of doctrine as there are ticks on a blue hound. To even invite these complexities into the social fabric of our legal system is to invite failure and disaster and irremediable divisiveness. Do you know how many men have died just because they thought three-in-one was a better description of divinity than one-in-one, or two-in-one or all-in-one??? You want Congress to take that on, when they can't even stay out of bankruptcy?

Believe me, let anyone believe what they may, to enter those beliefs into our arena of law and social structure is organizational suicide. Theocracy and freedom do not mix.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: John Hardly
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:15 PM

"Is there any reason why religious people (off whatever religion) can't found a completely secular institution?"

No. And that's part of what I've been trying to get at -- they did. And they weren't ashamed of the heritage that led them to that grand endeavor (as robomatic so eloquently stated). The Christianity of that era was instrumental in their founding of the secular US government -- and they didn't see the same kind of division that is now being demanded. They didn't develop the secular government as anti-religious or religion-free (as regarding informing its participator's moraity). In fact, they seemed to operate on the assumption of understanding the integral and necessary part that religion plays in informing morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:22 PM

I have no desire to see religious fanatics run either the courts or use government office to enforce their belief system. Like most people here, I grew up with the knowledge that most people sow their wild oats all week, then go to church on Sunday to pray for crop failure. But I do admire the checks and balances placed into the Constitution to prevent such abuse. I did not forget Jefferson in earlier posts.
Here is some more food for thought on the seperation aspect.
Congress finds the following:

(1) On November 11, 1620, prior to embarking for the shores of America, the Pilgrims signed the Mayflower Compact that declared: `Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith and honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia,'.

(2) On July 4, 1776, America's Founding Fathers, after appealing to the `Laws of Nature, and of Nature's God' to justify their separation from Great Britain, then declared: `We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'.

(3) In 1781, Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence and later the Nation's third President, in his work titled `Notes on the State of Virginia' wrote: `God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God. That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever.'.

(4) On May 14, 1787, George Washington, as President of the Constitutional Convention, rose to admonish and exhort the delegates and declared: `If to please the people we offer what we ourselves disapprove, how can we afterward defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair; the event is in the hand of God!'.

(5) On July 21, 1789, on the same day that it approved the Establishment Clause concerning religion, the First Congress of the United States also passed the Northwest Ordinance, providing for a territorial government for lands northwest of the Ohio River, which declared: `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.'.

(6) On September 25, 1789, the First Congress unanimously approved a resolution calling on President George Washington to proclaim a National Day of Thanksgiving for the people of the United States by declaring, `a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a constitution of government for their safety and happiness.'.

(7) On November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln delivered his Gettysburg Address on the site of the battle and declared: `It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain--that this Nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom--and that Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.'.

(8) On April 28, 1952, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952), in which school children were allowed to be excused from public schools for religious observances and education, Justice William O. Douglas, in writing for the Court stated: `The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State. Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concern or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the State and religion would be aliens to each other--hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly. Churches could not be required to pay even property taxes. Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups. Policemen who helped parishioners into their places of worship would violate the Constitution. Prayers in our legislative halls; the appeals to the Almighty in the messages of the Chief Executive; the proclamations making Thanksgiving Day a holiday; `so help me God' in our courtroom oaths--these and all other references to the Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals, our ceremonies would be flouting the First Amendment. A fastidious atheist or agnostic could even object to the supplication with which the Court opens each session: `God save the United States and this Honorable Court.'.

(9) On June 15, 1954, Congress passed and President Eisenhower signed into law a statute that was clearly consistent with the text and intent of the Constitution of the United States, that amended the Pledge of Allegiance to read: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.';

(10) On July 20, 1956, Congress proclaimed that the national motto of the United States is `In God We Trust', and that motto is inscribed above the main door of the Senate, behind the Chair of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, and on the currency of the United States.

(11) On June 17, 1963, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), in which compulsory school prayer was held unconstitutional, Justices Goldberg and Harlan, concurring in the decision, stated: `But untutored devotion to the concept of neutrality can lead to invocation or approval of results which partake not simply of that noninterference and noninvolvement with the religious which the Constitution commands, but of a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular and a passive, or even active, hostility to the religious. Such results are not only not compelled by the Constitution, but, it seems to me, are prohibited by it. Neither government nor this Court can or should ignore the significance of the fact that a vast portion of our people believe in and worship God and that many of our legal, political, and personal values derive historically from religious teachings. Government must inevitably take cognizance of the existence of religion and, indeed, under certain circumstances the First Amendment may require that it do so.'.

(12) On March 5, 1984, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Lynch v. Donelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1984), in which a city government's display of a nativity scene was held to be constitutional, Chief Justice Burger, writing for the Court, stated: `There is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789 . . . [E]xamples of reference to our religious heritage are found in the statutorily prescribed national motto `In God We Trust' (36 U.S.C. 186), which Congress and the President mandated for our currency, see (31 U.S.C. 5112(d)(1) (1982 ed.)), and in the language `One Nation under God', as part of the Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. That pledge is recited by many thousands of public school children--and adults--every year . . . Art galleries supported by public revenues display religious paintings of the 15th and 16th centuries, predominantly inspired by one religious faith. The National Gallery in Washington, maintained with Government support, for example, has long exhibited masterpieces with religious messages, notably the Last Supper, and paintings depicting the Birth of Christ, the Crucifixion, and the Resurrection, among many others with explicit Christian themes and messages. The very chamber in which oral arguments on this case were heard is decorated with a notable and permanent--not seasonal--symbol of religion: Moses with the Ten Commandments. Congress has long provided chapels in the Capitol for religious worship and meditation.'.

(13) On June 4, 1985, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38 (1985), in which a mandatory moment of silence to be used for meditation or voluntary prayer was held unconstitutional, Justice O'Connor, concurring in the judgment and addressing the contention that the Court's holding would render the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because Congress amended it in 1954 to add the words `under God,' stated `In my view, the words `under God' in the Pledge, as codified at (36 U.S.C. 172), serve as an acknowledgment of religion with `the legitimate secular purposes of solemnizing public occasions, [and] expressing confidence in the future.'.

(14) On November 20, 1992, the United States Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, in Sherman v. Community Consolidated School District 21, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992), held that a school district's policy for voluntary recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance including the words `under God' was constitutional.

(15) The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals erroneously held, in Newdow v. U.S. Congress, (9th Cir. June 26, 2002) that the Pledge of Allegiance's use of the express religious reference `under God' violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional.

(16) The erroneous rationale of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Newdow would lead to the absurd result that the Constitution's use of the express religious reference `Year of our Lord' in Article VII violates the First Amendment to the Constitution, and that, therefore, a school district's policy and practice of teacher-led voluntary recitations of the Constitution itself would be unconstitutional.

SEC. 2. ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 4 of title 4, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery

`The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: `I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.', should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Pledge for decades.

SEC. 3. REAFFIRMING THAT GOD REMAINS IN OUR MOTTO.

(a) REAFFIRMATION- Section 302 of title 36, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`Sec. 302. National motto

`In God we trust' is the national motto.'.

(b) CODIFICATION- In codifying this subsection, the Office of the Law Revision Counsel shall make no change in section 302, title 36, United States Code, but shall show in the historical and statutory notes that the 107th Congress reaffirmed the exact language that has appeared in the Motto for decades. Attest:

Clerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:32 PM

Dear Clerk:

No-one in the Universe who is very sentient can avoid the Big Question of origins and powers greater than the Universe.

The use of the word God is a different matter altogether, since ti defines boundaries to the free exercise of religious thought just as it would if the word Yaweh, or Kong, were used instead.

But at least, it can be interpreted as inclusive of all those who reflect on the nature of the transcendent infinite.

The "Ten Commandments", being as they are a crude moral code forwarded by an obscure cult from the third century BC, is another matter altogether.

If you insist on calling God into it, at least leave the definition of the word, and all the implications thereof, to the free moral choice of the citizenry and keep the goddamned law-makers out of it. Leaving God to the individual is the most God-like choice you could make.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM

I found this site very informative on the subject.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:11 PM

Excerpts:

"Baptist Preacher's Objections to the Constitution
The influential Baptist preacher, John Leland, wrote a letter, containing ten objections to the Federal Constitution, and sent it to Colonel Thomas Barbour, an opponent of the Constitution in James Madison's Orange County district. Leland's objections were copied by Captain Joseph Spencer, one of Madison's Baptist friends, and sent to Madison so that he could refute the arguments. Leland's final objection was that the new constitution did not sufficiently secure "What is dearest of all---Religious Liberty." His chief worry was "if a Majority of Congress with the President favour one System more than another, they may oblige all others to pay to the support of their System as much as they please.""

Madison's Notes for the Bill of Rights
Madison used this outline to guide him in delivering his speech introducing the Bill of Rights into the First Congress on June 8, 1789. Madison proposed an amendment to assuage the anxieties of those who feared that religious freedom would be endangered by the unamended Constitution. According to The Congressional Register Madison, on June 8, moved that "the civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed."

To Bigotry no Sanction"
President George Washington and a group of public officials, including Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson, left New York City, the temporary capital of the United States, on August 15, 1790, for a brief tour of Rhode Island. At Newport, Washington received an address of congratulations from the congregation of the Touro Synagogue. His famous answer, assuring his fellow citizens "of the Stock of Abraham" that the new American republic would give "to bigotry no sanction, to persecution not assistance," is seen here in the copy from Washington's letterbook.

Thomas Jefferson's reply of January 1, 1802, to an address of congratulations from the Danbury (Connecticut) Baptist Association contains a phrase familiar in today's political and judicial circles: "a wall of separation between church and state." Many in the United States, including the courts, have used this phrase to interpret the Founders' intentions regarding the relationship between government and religion, as set down by the First Amendment to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion . . . ." However, the meaning of this clause has been the subject of passionate dispute for the past fifty years.
Presented here are both the handwritten, edited draft of the letter and an adjusted facsimile showing the original unedited draft. The draft of the letter reveals that, far from dashing it off as a "short note of courtesy," as some have called it, Jefferson labored over its composition. Jefferson consulted Postmaster General Gideon Granger of Connecticut and Attorney General Levi Lincoln of Massachusetts while drafting the letter. That Jefferson consulted two New England politicians about his messages indicated that he regarded his reply to the Danbury Baptists as a political letter, not as a dispassionate theoretical pronouncement on the relations between government and religion.

---

The emphasis of the Founding Fathers on some religious basis for morality is understandable and readily defensible, but it is not enforceable; thus Jefferson's doctrine about the wall of separation is profoundly the correct answer for the great social experiment that the rest of the Constitution presented to the surprised world.

There is no question that some form of generic religiousness -- a respect for the universe and its spiritual mysteries and the questions of human origin and destiny -- serves as a well-spring for moral and ethical powers which are vital for any citizen to be able to draw on.

But this only works if it occurs under an umbrella of profound respect for individual free choice.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:17 PM

Religion does not have to be rendered impotent for democracy to survive.

If your religion can be rendered impotent simply by having its artifacts removed from the public sphere, it can't be much of a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM

CarolC. Neither can the government idly stand by and allow an attack against artifacts as stated in this rulling..
`But untutored devotion to the concept of neutrality can lead to invocation or approval of results which partake not simply of that noninterference and noninvolvement with the religious which the Constitution commands, but of a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular and a passive, or even active, hostility to the religious. Such results are not only not compelled by the Constitution, but, it seems to me, are prohibited by it. Neither government nor this Court can or should ignore the significance of the fact that a vast portion of our people believe in and worship God and that many of our legal, political, and personal values derive historically from religious teachings. Government must inevitably take cognizance of the existence of religion and, indeed, under certain circumstances the First Amendment may require that it do so.'.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM

What ruling is that, Dave, and to what does it refer?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:21 PM

On June 17, 1963, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963), in which compulsory school prayer was held unconstitutional.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:05 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:14 PM

That was a good ruling. I remember compulsory school prayer. I stood in the doorway of the classroom and waited until they were finished.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:09 AM

I notice that, while applauding the decision from which Dave's excerpt is taken, nobody is actually addressing the point his quote raises.

Very revealing.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:59 AM

Dave is a windbag. His first two "official Library of Congress Statements" were taken from here, complete with line breaks:

"http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm"

(Welcome to EadsHome Ministries,
where Jesus is Lord, and everything is free!)

Neither is a Library of Congress statement. The first seems to have originalted on Wikipedia.

Dave, you can't just cut and paste reams of nonsense from ministry websites and claim it is our government speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:05 AM

What about Dave's post of 18 April 2005   4:07 PM? Is it an accurate quote or not?   I'm sure nobody here would want to stoop to an ad hominem attack.

If accurate, how about actually grappling with the issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:46 AM

Are there any non-christian judges in the USA?
If so, just have them put some texts from their belief systems in their courthouses.

If a few verses from the Koean, some lines from Hindu scripture, a paragraph or two from Confucius, and a copy of Desiderata were displayed in different courthouses, what would be the reaction?
If they can stay, then let the commandments stay. But if they have to go, they ALL have to go.

Desiderata

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM

Koean? Koran (or Quoran) even

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:49 AM

Oh, cut it out with that "very revealing" BS, Ron. Who do you think you are, Sigmund Freud? Anyway, Freud was a pervert.

I didn't address the actual quote because it would appear to me that the actual ruling trumps the quote. I would like to see that quote in its larger context. All by itself it is almost completely meaningless.

robomatic, were there any other Jewish kids in your classes? Do you mind if I ask you what part of the country you were living in during the time of mandatory prayer?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:57 AM

If public school prayer is compulsory, or even allowed, who picks the prayer? Can a muslim teacher (or principal) have the class bow to Mecca?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:07 PM

BTW, CarolC nails it with the "actual ruling trumps the quote" line. Works for this (or any) ruling, works for the constitution (quote the writers' other correspondence all you want, the fact that they didn't put God in the constitution trumps 'em all).

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

The quotes are from the Library Of Congress. The actual documents used to back up some of my posts are available online too if you care to check Nerd. Interesting that you can insult someone without debating facts. Non of my detractors have yet to counter any of the quotes or references I have made; which is a classic example of my mind is made up dont confuse me with facts syndrome.

CarolC these judgements are made by the same people you accuse of being rabid right wing extremist Christians; strange that they have always ruled in favour of keeping religion a private matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:22 PM

By the way Nerd I am not a US citizen...

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM

CarolC these judgements are made by the same people you accuse of being rabid right wing extremist Christians; strange that they have always ruled in favour of keeping religion a private matter?

Where did I accuse the people who made those judgements of being "rabid right wing extremist Christians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

I am sorry for my choice of words Carol, brought on by frustration from the above responses to my posts by people who cannot think and read.. I think my point was that whilst protecting you from religious persecution, the court is very clearly stating that you and others with similar opinions, will not be supported by the Constitution, or the judiciary, which clearly has a duty to recognise and defend religion. The use of religious icons and fundamental belief in their use as the moral and fundamental principal of US law is clearly enshrined in the Constitution as stated in the ruling The seperation of church and state was designed to prevent denominations controling federal government. Clearly the intent was to recognise this as prevention from domination by a majority rule, enforcing observance of their particular version of faith, not as some people believe to exclude religion from US law. The States themselves have an overiding ability to mention God in their law but federal system prevents religion being an issue in the judiciary..
Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

Dave, I'd still like to see that quote in its larger context before I decide whether or not I accept your premise. For all I know, that quote could have been from a dissenting opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:49 PM

The use of religious icons and fundamental belief in their use as the moral and fundamental principal of US law is clearly enshrined in the Constitution...

kinda like the headache brought on by people who can't read, think, reason, or write coherently, I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM

a brooding and pervasive devotion to the secular and a passive, or even active, hostility to the religious. Such results are not only not compelled by the Constitution, but, it seems to me, are prohibited by it. Neither government nor this Court can or should ignore the significance of the fact that a vast portion of our people believe in and worship God and that many of our legal, political, and personal values derive historically from religious teachings. Government must inevitably take cognizance of the existence of religion and, indeed, under certain circumstances the First Amendment may require that it do so.'.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:32 PM

Is that also from the same author and decision as your previous quote? Who wrote it? Was he or she using it as a part of the main decision or was he or she writing a dessenting opinion? How does that quote fit into the larger decision? What came before it? What comes after it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

Supreme Court judgement On June 17, 1963, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM

Carol--

I'm so sorry I offended you--I must have, to have called forth your rather intemperate response (19 Apr 2005   10:49 AM).

Very revealing.

Especially since, as you will note, my comment was not aimed at any one person.


In fact, Dave's quote is not meaningless, much as you want to dismiss it. You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The quote was cautioning against doing precisely that. It's no wonder you did not want to deal with it.

By the way, the quote I refer to, which by the way, is also the subject of your current back-and-forth with Dave, is from a concurring opinion by Justice Goldberg, joined by Justice Harlan, of the 17 June 1963 Supreme Court decision.

As I said before, moderation does not appear to be a big part of your world view, understandably colored by your home-schooling ordeal.

Oh no! Don't tell me you're offended again. You'd be advised to develop a thicker skin.

As far as perversions go, my suggestion would be to consult "Martin". You know he's our resident authority.

Looking forward to your typically calm and well-reasoned answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 06:35 PM

That phrase implies an assumption about other people's reasons for not commenting on the thing you are making that point about, Ron. Otherwise you wouldn't use the word "revealing" (and I believe that was the second time you did that... which is why it is beginning to annoy me). You do not know other people's reasons for not commenting on anything. You may think you are a mind reader, but you are not. You may be very presumptuous, but you certainly don't know what's in my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 10:15 PM

Btw, the quote is meaningless unless it is given in context. If it is a dissenting opinion, that means it's not a part of the ruling... just a rider to show what the dissenting judge or judges had to say about the issue. I notice that even though I have asked twice, nobody who is arguing on behalf of that quote has offered to tell me whether or not it is a dissenting opinion. If I am to be expected to look it up myself, and to do the work for the people who are supposedly "defending" this quote and its validity, it's going to have to wait until I have more time to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM

Carol--

You're not a very careful reader. (Perhaps it's not just the Bushites who fit this mold)

In fact, in my most recent post (19 Apr 6:22 PM), I specified exactly what Dave's quote was from--a CONCURRING opinion by Justice Goldberg, joined by Justice Harlan, of the 17 June 1963 Supreme Court decision in question.

No sweat off my back if you believe me or not--as you point out, you can do the research yourself (if you don't believe me)--it took me all of 5 minutes.

If you don't like my "Very revealing"--sorry--it was a perfectly apt comment (both times)----and you will have to steel yourself to possibly hear it again, if the occasion arises. After "Martin's" bons mots, I would think this would be water off a duck's back.

If you can't stand the heat...

Back to the quote--if by some chance you do want to accept it as legitimate, it raises a very valid point--in fact the crux of the problem:   what exactly should be the permissible accommodations between church (and synogogue) and state in order to be productive of religious and political harmony. It is not in fact necessarily a wall, much as you and others may like that metaphor--yes, I know it comes from Jefferson. The answer may well however, be not a wall, but peaceful coexistence. (You can already forget about knocking out "In God We Trust" from coins, and "So help me God" from oaths.)

If you still need consultation on perversions, "Martin" is always available.

Apropos of nothing, I will say, however, that you're more than holding your own on the Anti-Semitism thread. Quoting somebody's chosen author back to him is always a nice touch. As in many other cases, the answer there is nowhere near as cut and dried as some seem to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:08 AM

No it wasn't at all revealing, Ron. It is just as possible that the reason some people haven't commented on the quote is that they have not been at their computer lately. There's just no way to know what someone's reasons are for not posting something.

And now I am finished talking to you. You are much too dependent upon making intrusive personal statements and assumptions as a substitute for real and reasoned debate with people. I find this form of argument way too tedious to be willing to devote any more time to it. If I have a response to that opinion, it will be for Dave, who doesn't usually need to use those kinds of tactics in order to try to elevate himself above the other people in the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 03:34 PM

Try to show enough respect for this forum not to revert to childish personal insults to the people using it. I am not a university educated person and in no way think myself more knowledgable on this issue than any other person here. I was not aware of the Ten Commandments being so contentious until recently, and my love of American history led me to read more on the matter.

From several recent newsites I found that the Supreme Court will make a judgement on this matter. I honestly think the principals set by the 1963 concuring opinions of justices Harlan and Goldberg are the finest example of how well the judicial system handles the first amendment. I do not consider myself an expert in American Law, but from everything I have read on this history supports the principals they stated. We shall see if it prevails.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:03 PM

But the most important commandment is still 'Thou Shalt NOT get caught ' !!

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:04 PM

400 !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:46 PM

not quite 400 ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ten Commandments on Public Property?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:47 PM

BINGO!!!!