Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?

Subject: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:42 AM

I have a difficult problem that came to light last night - I'm told that I sing certain sorts of songs (ie unaccompanied sea shanty) better than guitar backed singer/songwriter sort of stuff.

So why the problem?

Because I don't really like unaccompanied sea shanties and can't really see that I have a reason to sing them apart from that people seem to enjoy them the very few times that I've done them.

The whole question of what to sing has been something I have been thinking about for a while. I only started to sing in public about a year and a bit ago but am now a bit more confident to the stage where I will get up and play in singarounds etc. Over the last year I have tried out about 60-70 songs; some I like as songs but can't sing well enough; some I like as songs and can sing quite well; some I can sing reasonably well but I can't see a reason to sing the song (nothing that touches me personally or that I can really see a reason to really want to sing. Does anyone else have this?

Ideally I would be able to sing well a group of songs that I really like but I have so far found it hard to get a group of songs like that. The songs that I really like I think I sing with more feeling and passion than the ones that I am less involved with. That is why the sea shanty has caused the dilemma (it was 'A Drop of Nelson's Blood' which Muppett sang when he visited last year in Farlington and which I happened to hear a copy of the other day) - I sang it by way of a change and just as an outing for the voice.

When I went to see Dick Gaughan last year I was struck that everything he sang seemed to have a reason to it and that there was a consistency in his songs - rather than just a group of tunes and songs that have no real reason to be together. Since then I have tended to look at songs and ask myself the question "why exactly are you doing this song?" Last night has now confused me.

I'd be interested in what others do/think.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 09:46 AM

it is a dilemma - especially if you are performing for others rather then performing for yourself. In a singaround you can be more indulgent of your own tastes - but if you are doing a performance for a fee or the audience is paying a fee - then you need to pay attention to what they want.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:04 AM

As MMario said , If you are getting paid , you do what you are getting paid to sing , the rest of the time you do what YOU want to do . When i first started singing , I didnt play any thing I could sing with ( I am an Ex Jazz Clarinet and Sax player) so did Unaccompanied songs and played whistle tunes . Then I realised I wanted to sing a lot of contemporary songs (Leon Rosselsson and such)
so I learnt guitar ,then banjo when I briefly teamed up with another guitarist . I now work pro , mostly playing mandolin and whistle ,
with occasioanl bits of guitar and banjo , and still sing the odd 'Trad' unaccompanied song . When i drop in on my local clubs i am often told I should sing more unaccomp songs , and that ISNT because I am a crap instrumentalist , but I dont do as many as I could . They ARE a useful fallback if I break a string , or have a tuning problem and dont want to waste time .
I find that an accompanied song has to be well worked in as an arrangement before I feel comfortable with it , whereas a Trad song is a lot easier to get up to speed . Just keep at it and enjoy the music !

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:32 AM

Of course the great thing is to do both at the same time-- to find and perfrom what satisfies you AND the audience. This comes over time, but can be done. Look beneath the surface of the material and see what it is that makes it work-- what is it about the shanties, for instance, that makes them work for others, and what is it about the material you prefer that makes it work for you..... then start listening to as much music as you can, listening for those pieces that address BOTH aspects. It's out there. Keep listening for it, and keep adapting the workable material till it's your own. It takes time to build a repertoire that way, but once you find a new piece, you get to keep it forever.

~S~

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: jimmyt
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:55 AM

ALong the same vein, I play and sing in a group that does lots of music from the 60s ie Peter Paul and Mary as well as Kingston Trio etc. The delemma we have is invaribly the audience wants to hear lots of old workhorses ie MTA and Tom Dooley and things of that nature. My group wants to continue doing more obscure stuff that they like to play and perform and would never consider playing the real request stuff like If I had a Hammer, Puff the magic Dragon, WHere have all the FLowers gone etc.

Myself being an entertainer much more than a musician, am always leaning toward pleasing the audience as this is where I get my kicks, rather than playing an obscure song and trying to educate the audience on the origin of the Uprising of 1798. I would like to seek a happy medium but it seems we continue performing higher quality but losing out when it comes to the entertainment.

I guess the question is should we do what the crowd wants or what we think they should hear? We still have very pleased audiences by the way, but it just seems that from an entertainment issue only, we are constantly at B to B plus when it would be so easy to get A ratings across the boards. Just call me a stage whore!

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:01 AM

Thoughtful questions you raise, Nick and sound advice from the catters too.
Another thought I have is that variety in a set always helps.

Although I'm a Child Ballad freak, I once heard six in a row from an accomplished singer who turned off the paying folks during the third song.
Sheena Wellington, however, will follow something like "Sheath and knife" with a wee daft song like "Beano and Dandy and Sunday Post".
The contrast between the performances required just helps; and fewer people retreat to the toilets.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

If I tell you what I enjoy singing (and do ok enough that I would sing and play them in front of others - and will continue to do) and also like as songs it may explain my dilemma further.

Summer Before War / Rosemary's Sister / My Love is in America - Fairport
Forever Young - Dylan
Father's Song / Terror Time - Ewan MacColl
Circle Dance - Bonnie Raitt
American Tune - Paul Simon
Mythical Kings and Iguanas - Dory Previn
Sisters of Mercy - Cohen
Please Call Me Baby / San Diego Serenade - Tom Waits
Water is Wide - Trad
Vincent Black Lightning - Richard Thompson
So Clear - Pentangle
Early Morning Rain - Lightfoot
Celluloid Heroes - Kinks
Let's Talk Dirty in Hawaii - John Prine

Now apart from what on earth am I doing on a FOLK music forum (!) there's not a lot there that yells sea shanty is there? I'm not even sure if there is that much of a link between the songs but for one reason or another I like singing each of them for one reason or another and each of them has a 'reason' why I sing it (perhaps not the Hawaii song which just makes people smile and join in and was a recent addition originally done just for a change).

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:15 AM

Well, Nick, as I was sitting next to you when you sang it, I have an opinion!

Did anyone really say you sang it BETTER than your guitar accompanied songs? I heard a lot of compliments for how you sang THAT song and, as everybody joined in with gusto, there was a shared feeling of enjoyment of the performance. But that might not be the same thing as YOU singing it better than your accompanied songs.

You also sang a number of accompanied songs last night and while you were singing I was thinking what a good voice you have and how you have developed it over the last year or so. IMO you sang the shanty well, but you sing your other stuff better. This is not necessarily a measure of how much everyone else enjoys the accompanied stuff but they certainly do - I can think of several songs over the last few weeks you have sung that have met with raucous applause (John Prine, Richard Thompson etc).

I think the dilemma is also around what you think others might enjoy as much as what you want to sing. I changed two of my songs last night on the spur of the moment because a) I wanted to sing something lung-busting, b) I felt underprepared on one I had rehearsed c) I wanted to do a cover version people knew. So some of that is what I want to do and some what others might enjoy. But all of them were songs I like. Occasionally I might sing a song I don't like if I have my arm twisted but if that became the norm I would stop doing it.

Good thread though!

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: Splott Man
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:34 AM

I like your choice of material.

How about looking at other material by your favourite writers that lends itself to unaccompanied singing? Then you can let your voice dictate the key rather than what key works best for the guitar.

I find Richard Thompson's We'll Sing Hallelujah and Down Where The Drunkards Roll both work well for instance.

regards

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM

There are a lot of good songs in that list, so I wouldn't think you're off to a bad start. It's a good thing that you're thinking about what you like singing and choosing songs that suit you. However I wouldn't spend too much time agonising over it.

If you enjoy singing a song it will probably come across to the listeners and enhance their enjoyment and your own. If you're doing it because you feel you ought to that will come across as well.

Be prepared to experiment, try out something and if it doesn't work either work to change it for the better or ditch it.

Variety is important so I wouldn't get hung up on saying I don't like doing x type of song. If you find something you like and think you do well don't worry about the genre or whatever, keep doing it.

You're dilemna arises out of the fact that people said you sang a particular song well. Take encouragement from the compliments but don't let others influence you into doing songs you really don't like - you're the one who will be stuck singing them into the future.

There may be something in the fact that the unaccompanied song went down well and if so you should try to build on that. For example it may be that the fact that you didn't have to concentrate on getting the accompaniment right enabled you to put more into singing the song and that came through in the performance. You could try doing some of the ones you like to do with accompaniment unaccompanied and see what the reaction to that is.

Either way keep doing stuff you like and eventually you'll come up with a set of songs that work for you. As time goes on you'll add and drop songs from this set as the mood takes you.

Dick Gaughan has had 30 years or more to get to where he is now, so don't expect to get there overnight. And enjoy the journey!

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: Nick
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 11:59 AM

I have done We'll sing Hallelujah and enjoyed that.

It's not that I have a particular urge to do an unaccompanied song though it was quite fun to do it as a change, and quite a handy thing to have up one's sleeve. It's might also be because I was trying to persuade someone to sing again the other night (who has a lovely voice but doesn't sing) and she said "it's ok for you because you have your guitar to hide behind", so I thought I'd try it.

The dilemma is whether to do more in the future when my heart/head isn't that sure why I'm doing it. If they come out reasonably perhaps I should and perhaps it is just a case of finding some material which I relate to more as suggested.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

Re: "I'm told that I sing certain sorts of songs (ie unaccompanied sea shanty) better than guitar backed singer/songwriter sort of stuff."

Don't worry about it. That was a silly thing to say! Find some songs that feature whatever it is about shanties that brings out the best in you, and sing them.

With the millions of possible songs out there, you can find songs that are good for you, whether accompanied or not.

Possibly your critic has heard only the "singer/songwriter stuff" produced by the pop music world in the last 20 years. Most of it would make anybody sound bad.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:53 PM

After thirty years of singing accompanied and unaccompanied - sing what you're comfortable with. If you like a song, you will perform it better - and your audience will like it/you better.

As for pleasing the audience as a paid performer - you are booked because someone likes what you do. Therefore, they will expect to hear what you do. It is very disappointing to turn up to listen/watch someone, expecting material with which you are familiar, only to find that the performer is doing something else entirely, in the false belief that that is what his/her audeince wants.

Witness how the Beach Boys blew Elton John off stage in the the mid-seventies - they did all the old faves, whilst EJ ignored the back catalogue and only performed material from Captain Fantastic, which nobody knew.

And as for not doing a song because it isn't "folk" - what the hell is "folk"? How many Lennon/McCartney songs have been performed in folk clubs over the years? If "folk" has to be written by the great songwriter Anon, how come Robert Johnson songs are performed - and why is the music of Turlough O'Carolan so well loved in folk clubs?

So sod it - pass me the Strat, and I'll do MY version of Wild Mountain Thyme!

epn

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 05:14 PM

In the long run, performing what you enjoy will always produce the most appealing results. Consciously or not, listeners will always "hear" your love for your material, and they'll appreciate it.

I think you are probably putting too much weight on someone's random, unconsidered comment. Someone who may very well tell everyone "You should sing nothing but unaccompanied sea shanties."

At the risk of introducing thread drift, let me mention a similar but different issue that occurred to me while reading through this thread: I really love (and love to sing) several entire genres of music that I'm not capable of playing on my one instrument, the acoustic guitar. I have had a few brief opportunities to sing in front of big loud bands featuring horns and various electrified instruments, but have no realistic chance to do so regularly. Performing solo is nice, but limits me to the tamest, least dynamic portion of my potential repertoire. Anyone empathize? Or even understand what I'm talking about?

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: the fence
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:55 PM

People seem to appreciate a song that you can put some feeling into, no matter what type of song.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:19 AM

Poppagator

I know what you mean. The way I see it, you have 100% of effort so, of you paly and sing at the same time, you split your effort roughly 50/50 between the two. The playing and the singing might both be good but not necessarily great. If you do one or the other you can dedicate 100% of effort to it and have a better chance of being great.

This is true (for me) regardless of what kind of song you might be singing.

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: rich-joy
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 04:56 AM

good thread!
(I understand the dilemma ...)

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:07 AM

Nothing wrong with the stuff you mention Nick.

The thing with singarounds is that it sometimes a good idea NOT to go in with a specific song in mind. I find that if I listen to the singers who preceed me then there is sometimes a theme developing and you might then want to sing something that fits that theme better than the song you came in with. Also the guy who complimented you might just have sat through six or seven guitar numbers and was just gasping for a good all-together-now chorus.

next week after everyone sings their shanties you can make a change of pace with your contemporary guitar song. In time you get the best of both worlds

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: GUEST,Patrick Costello
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:27 AM

I think the issue here isn't song choice. The idea that unaccompanied songs going over better than songs with instrumentation behind them ,leads me to wonder if it's the audience (you might just be laying for people who like sea chanteys) or if there is a problem with the instrumentation.

Playing and singing isn't easy. I tend to say otherwise when I'm working with students (if you don't tell them it's impossible they won't try to make any excuses, they'll just do it), but the reality here is that something as simple as keeping a steady rhythm while singing can be a difficult skill to master. If something is off - even something minor - it can hit the audience like chewing on tinfoil. The other thing that drives audiences crazy is playing the same rhythm for a few songs in a row.

My advice would be to do two things. First, just kick back for an afternoon and scope out your chops. I'm not talking anything major here. Just go over what you are doing and look at it from a couple of different angles. While you are doing that start singing every song you come across.

Here's the deal, a song is just a song. If you start looking for meaning in every tune you play you'll wind up as flaky as grandmas homemade biscuits. The "meaning" of the song you are playing is put in while you're singing it. If you're happy, sad, gassy, confused, angry or stoned out of your gonads it'll come across in the song. Going into a tune thinking that you want to say this or that always works against you. Make the song reflect who, where and what you are in this moment in time. That gives the audience a feeling of connection to you, and that leads to feeling a connection with the song.

In other words, don't think. Just sing.

-Patrick

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: GUEST,JudyB
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 10:03 AM

Nick, I admit I don't know all the songs you list, but the ones I recognize I generally think of as quiet songs that people might sing along with quietly if they know the song (and if that's the practice of your song circle). I also don't recognize your shanty by its name though I may know it under another name - but most shanties I have heard tend to have refrain lines and choruses that encourage people joining in and generally singing really loud - and that's fun to do. Another thing to try is to find something with the energy of a shanty and a good loud chorus that will work with a guitar and see how that goes over. I'm willing to bet it's not that they like your shanties that much better than your other songs - it's that they appreciated a chance to be part of the wave of energy that comes from a bunch of people singing together at the top of their lungs and maybe that they wanted to encourage you for trying something outside of your comfort zone and doing it well.
   JudyB

Subject: RE: Dilemma:Sing what you like/what good at?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM

Sometimes it can be great fun, and very productive, to hit 'em with a song which has an almost impossible chorus.

I do one called "Hypochondria", composed by my friend Clive Lever (Wildrover on Mudcat), which has a machine gun chorus. It took me six months to learn.

I warn them that they have just four chances to sing it, and they get so involved with the song,that I could sing the telephone book after, and they woudn't notice.

Lots of fun, and about 50 percent actually succeed. Guess what the first request is the next time I visit that venue.

Don T.