BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism

Subject: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:34 PM

Just watched Suspino - A Cry for Roma. It was amazing to realize that pogroms against gypsies are still carried out in Europe. Romania is a country that I do not know much about but I am surprised that the rest of the world continues to turn a blind eye to the plight of the Roma. If you are interested in reading more:

http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/sacr1.html

I highly recommend the DVD.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM

It'd be happening in Britain too, if Mr Howard had his way.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM

I once read a book called 'Racism and migrant labour' by Robert Miles, a bit hard work but he points to the connection between people as migrant workers and the rascist treatment they reveive.

The poor Roma forever suffer in this context, as have Jewish and Irish people in others.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:28 PM

It's always happened... society chooses a boogeyman because it won't face up to it's own failings, and proceeds to victimise them mercilessly. It's a particularly cowardly and damaging trait we have as humans...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:40 PM

In England we even have the main opposition party trying to get votes by joining in with the tabloid papers in a campaign of hate against gypsies.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:46 PM

I'm trying to think of an equivalent we have in the US. Illegal Migrants is perhaps our hot button. But the complaint there is jobs, not race. Although 'jobs' is a red herring- our society in many parts of the country would collapse if illegal migration were turned off over night, because our people don't want jobs that don't pay.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM

Reading even the front pages of the Mail, Express etc reminds me why we needed Alistair Campbell

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:18 PM

Yeah, I think I'd agree with Ebbie that illegal aliens are the scapegoats in the U.S., particularly if those aliens are Hispanic. There's a huge movement going on now, people volunteering to help patrol the Mexican border and report movement of aliens across the border - it all sounds like a bunch of vigilantes to me. I'm sure the Border Patrol doesn't appreciate the "assistance."

As for Roma in the U.S., I think they're virtually unknown and unnoticed. That's not to say that they're completely accepted or that their lot in the U.S. is wonderful - but I think they're essentially invisible in the U.S.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:38 PM

The plight of Hispanic people as migrant workers who suffer racism supports Miles hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:09 PM

When I lived in Japan I had to carry an 'Alien Registration Card' at all times as well as having my finger prints taken when I did register.

This was a bit of a surprise as no Japanese citizen has to carry an ID, only foreigners. On looking into it and talking to friends I found out more about the treatment of ethnic Koreans and Chinese. These are groups of people who have been born in Japan often to parents who were taken as forced labour prior to and during WWII. They can never get full Japanese citizenship and are not allowed to take jobs in management positions. A recent case was highlighted where a nurse applied for a sisters position in a hospital but due to her Korean ethnicity it was refused despite the fact she had been born in Japan and Japanese was her first language.

These groups more often than not do not marry 'full' blooded Japanese even if they take Japanese names as background check are carried out of the prospective partners as to their parentage and heredity.

Even amongst the Japanese there is a sub group called the burakumin who are descendants or children of those Japanese who worked with butchering meat, preparing leather, or burying the dead. In olden times they were called 'eta' (filth) and were forced into the lowest and dirtiest jobs such as night soil collectors. This group is forced to intermarry as 'normal' Japanese would not marry them.

Add to that the dalit class in India and you have millions of people in the East who are disadvantaged by their background.

I have seen some pretty blatant discrimination here in Shanghai where Shanghaiese (who are probably the worst) refer to non Shanghai people as waidiren. They are not just verbally rude to them but often will serve Shanghaiese first in a shop or even just ignore them or try and cheat them. But the howls of outrage when Shanghaiese are similarly treated when the boot is on the other foot is a joy to see.

Blatant racism is not just a European phenomena but alive and well in the far east.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM

From what I understand, the gypsies of Romania were brought to Europe from Pakistan as slaves. When slavery ended, they were the victims of no less than 30 pogroms, including the Nazi extermination camps.

I thought the treatment of Blacks in North America was bad but Europeans seem to completely ignore the plight of their most oppressed people. In Romania the discrimation is especially hateful.

Its my hope that everyone will increase their awareness of the lack of human rights and force their governments to do something positive to end the suffering of Romanian Gypsies.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:41 PM

OK, we are into one of the biggest issues around. As for Japan, I am out of my depth, but does the Empier thing rear irs head again?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:56 PM

We have at least another 2 Roma members on Mudcat. They also speak the Roma language, which I, to my shame, don't (I am 1/32 or 1/64 Vlach, or shepherd Roma, depending on whose story I believe, my gran's or my Mum's).

But, GUEST, we don't need Michael Howard to make the Roma suffer - we already do that, and have done so for decades. Both in the UK and all over Europe. They were just as viciously culled as the Jews by the Nazis, except their plight was never highlighted, they don't have any Holocaust memorials, no funds were allocated for any Roma survivors of the camps ($14 billion for the Jewish survivors, I believe), no country to open its arms to them, no powerful lobbies, and precious few to speak up for them.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM

Are there any solid figures for how many Roma there are, worldwide, and how they are dispersed?

When I was a kid(40s) there were still stories of abduction and theft and unaccountability of and by "gypsies" but if memory serves me, when it came to unacceptable practices within the cities, the "Williamson Gang" was much more commonly spoken of. I suppose it is possible that the 'Williamsons' were Roma.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:22 PM

I'd love to know lf there is a ANY place in the world where there are people of different races and ethnicities and there is no racism or bias.

And what makes it worse, people who are targeted also target their own. I am speaking here of people of African descent in the USA, and the Caribbean favoring those whose skins are lighter, and at the same time also giving those who are light skinned difficult times on a personal level.

But I wonder if the same in-fighting occurs within other discriminated groups.

For instance, I wonder whether the Roma look down on people of African descent. And it would be interesting to know if the Dalit of India-who are often much darker than African Americans or Coloureds of South African think they are better than those groups, even if they may not have met any person from that group.

It's all sick...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:03 PM

I know, Azizi. I have a friend, who when he was considering whether he should propose marriage to someone of whom he was fond, said "We're well matched, since we're both 'high yellow'. He didn't say it to me but to a mutual friend or I would have asked some questions. I have never heard such a term in everyday life, only in books.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: open mike
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:53 AM

for an interesting documentary on Romani (gypsy) (not necessarily Romainian or Egyptian which is where "Gypsy" is derived) see Latcho Drom
(Safe Journey) review here: http://www.prairienet.org/ejahiel/latcho.htm
and here: http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/l/latcho.html
I think of carnivals and circus being a place where some of these folks can be found in the U.S. that may be just a stereotype, but i think they would travel by car and truck rather than horse cart these days. But those carts are (were?) beautiful!!

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 03:36 AM

People may discriminate against others for a whole host of reasons but their is nothing like a does of colonialism to organise it into state sposored racism. See European and Japanese Empires for effect.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 03:51 AM

Well, InOBU/Lorcan has been decrying the racist attitudes towards the Rom in the US on this forum for a very very long time. Yes, it exists. What can 'we' do about it? I don't know, except for what 'I' can do.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:00 AM

I think the gypsies of Romania are a symbol of homeless people everywhere. Persecuted, homeless, minorities. It will take a huge international outcry to end their plight. Good government cares about all of its people.

Azizi - Roms come in all colours. They share a language and common customs and traditions that bind them. This isn't a matter of skin colour and social attitudes, its a matter of genocide. I'm amazed they have survived this long!

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:29 AM

Dont be rediculous.
Michael Howard is pointing out that gypsies are BREAKING PLANNING RULES. Its against the law, simple as that. These sites are illegal, so why the hell should they be allowed to stay there?

These are not Romani gypsies that are law abiding - i have several friends who are.

These are gypsies coming over from Ireland because the laws are a lot tighter over there. FACT

It is Labour that has been racist towards the Jews with their election posters depicting Letwin and Howard (both Jewish) as pigs, and Howard as Fagan.
Also Labours references to how Conservative policies have a whiff of the gas chambers about them. Disgusting, along with the vote rigging in Birmingham, and ivestigations is 8 other towns....

your comments?
respectfully

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:37 AM

Dianavan,

I appreciate your comments. I share your concerns about the plight of discriminated groups of people. I also concur with your statements for the need for 'Good government to care about all of its people".

In my previous post I was making the observation that some people of African descent discriminate against others because of skin color [see Ebbie's post for one example of this many faceted experience]

And I wondered if skin color or other types of internal discrimination occured in ethnic groups like the Romas.

I also was curious if there was some evidence that suggested that groups like the Romas and Dalits of India who are themselves discriminated against, looked down on other discriminated people.

If for instance, the Romas have a bias against African Americans,
I would still feel that they should not be the target of any governmental, institutional, or personal discrimination, but as an African American, that would make a difference in how I felt about that group.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

Fair enough to complain if they are breaking planning rules, but also - there is no law to say people must live in houses.
By making it impossible for gypsies and travellers to stay anywhere without being persecuted, it is effectively making it a law to live in a house.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

Would them buying a piece of land help? Would they be given planning permission for their caravans? Would the locals who object to them settling nearby be different if they owned the land?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:13 AM

The problem in the UK is that all travelling people get tarred with the same brush.

My daughter lives in a town in which a large number of 'gypsies' had settled. The area in which they lived was notorious for the trouble that went on there, between the residents themselves and involving outsiders. Certain pubs in the town were basically almost no go areas as the clientel were predominantly 'gypsies'. My daughter fought tooth and nail when the rules on school places was changed to stop her son from being placed in the school used by these people. These were what are also known as Irish tinkers, a completely different thing from the Romany gypsies for whom I have a lot of respect.

Unfortunately the tinkers tend to be unpopular wherever they land up. In the town I lived in visits by tinkers coincided with higher crime rates for burglaries and violence. When they moved on the illegal sites they left resembled rubbish tips. In spite of the fact that there were official sites these were not used. Those living on the official sites liked the tinkers even less than the townfolk as they were stuck with the same reputation.

I had a very liberal friend who, when tinkers invaded his town, reckoned that he could see where Hitler was coming from. That is the sort of reaction that this particular group can arouse in normally very laid back individuals.

The media do not help in this matter. When a number of Roma landed in Dover as illegal immigrants we were assailed with stories of their lawless ways, the rise in crime in the area and that they had made a beeline for the UK to take advantage of the benefits to be had here. How much of that was true I couldn't say, but it was printed in the papers and people believe what they see in print.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 10:25 AM

The "breaches of planning regulations" that the Tories are trying to make a big deal of have generally occurred where gypsy or other travellers have purchased patches of land in order to have somewhere to put their caravans, and have been refused planning permission to do so often on for very questionable reasons.

They have then gone ahead anyway and used the pitches.

This has occurred in a siutuation where the last Tory government abolished the duty of local authorities to provide suitable sites for travellers - a duty which they had for the most part ignored, without suffering any kind of penalty. Tories are very selective about what "breaches of regulations" they believe should be proescuted. (Labour hasn't much to boast about - they've been in power since 1997 and they've done nothing to reverse the Tory ban.)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:17 PM

Azizi - I do not know of any incidents where gypsies or travelling people discriminated against African Americans or anyone of African descent. Its difficult to discriminate when you are on the bottom of the heap. Besides that, its unlikely (demographically) that they have had much of a chance to form an opinion.

Do Afro-Americans discriminate against gypsies? Probably depends on whether they are land owners or not.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:11 PM

Thanks for a response Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

I always remember an encounter I saw in Ongar, Essex, quite a few years ago - a family of local Romany Gypsies were making their way along the pavement, and they ran into a young Asian family; young children on both sides, and both children and adults dressed in ways that distinguished them from the people around.

It was pretty clear that neither had ever met anyone like that before - Asian families tend to live in towns, and this was even more so, all those years ago. But they seemed to be getting on well together, admiring each others finery and children. I remember thinking how strange it was how two sets of people, originating from the Indian sub-continent at such widely different times, had run into each other on the other side of the world, on a spring morning in Essex.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,BF
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

correct,
there is a BIG difference between the real Romany gypsies of old, and the scum that go as gypsies.

We have had 2 gypsy groups set up near as and the local crime rate soared. They burned tyres, gas cylinders and cars, dug trenches, and had barbed wire to try and prevent the bailiffs from shifting them.
At another gypsy site, there was a death that is still unexplained. They just ditched the burnt out caravan on the road and buggered off, leaving excrement behind.

Do not confuse the two.
the problem is set to get worse now that Ireland has clamped down on them

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 02:39 PM

There are still Romany gypsies around but all the publicity is aimed at the tinkers who DO cause major problems. The Romanies don't like the tinkers either.

On the question of prejudice - in the part of the UK I lived in their was much more ill feeling between those of West Indian and Asian origin than between either race and the British.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:00 PM

'On the question of prejudice - in the part of the UK I lived in their was much more ill feeling between those of West Indian and Asian origin than between either race and the British.'

In my experience in Manchester this is not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:05 PM

The brits are rarely blatant in their racism. They have neither the balls or intellect to put their prejudices into language.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:08 PM

And do you have the balls to put a name to yourself or can you just not spell it Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM

BF - what a very suitable set of initials.

Divide and rule, pick out some bunch of outcasts to prefer over another. The Nazis used to go in for that kind of thing, picking our one variety of gypsy or traveller as superior or inferior. Some made quite a hobby of it. Then they gassed the lot.

Read "The Destiny of Europe's Gypsies" by Donald Penrick and Grattan Puxon ; or Grattan wrote another book about it "Gypsies under the Swastika".

I would reserve the expression "scum" for racists of all types at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Brakn
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:59 PM

Chewing gum on the pavements, litter and take-away food tray in gardens, cars parked all over pavements, people spitting, dogs shitting anywhere, 4x4s, number plates, cigarette butts, drunks being sick, kids sniffing coke from the toilet windows in the local, old folk being afraid to go out at night, girls falling about drunk showing what they've got - like their latest tattoo in chinese - ha, crap in the newspapers, crap on the tele and a bloody election coming up. Yes, you're right! It's Johnny Foreigner.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:53 AM

This is what happens when cultural genocide takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,BF
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM

just to be clear, i am not the guest who posted just above, and the letters BF are just to distinguish that. Sorry McGrath, there is no special meaning behind these letters, just BF.

regards

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:12 AM

I'm reading a very interesting book called the "Black Diaspora, Five Generations of The Black Experience" written by Ronald Segal.
I'd like to share a passage from that book's preface:

This quote may be off-topic as it does not speak to the anti-social behavior of members of an oppressed group [the same behavior which may occur in the same, greater, or lesser degree among members of non-oppressed groups]. However I believe that this excerpt is worthy of consideration.

[Speaking of the need for Jewish people in South Africa to be more vehement in their opposition to the establishment of apartheid]
"I continued to believe then as I believe now that a people with a past infused bu oppression and suffering is charged with a special responsibility, to remember and remind: to redeem that past with a creative meaning" to recognize and insist that we must treat one another as equally human, beyond differences of race or nationality; religion or culture, if we are not to become mere beast that talk."

-snip-

It seems to me that far too often when some 'minority' individuals who by dent of luck, or personal struggle, 'make it' out of poverty, they share the majority culture's bias against their group and against other oppressed groups. Concerned with living the good life, far too often these individuals fail to use their wealth and power and influence to work to remove the institutional and attitudinal barriers that keep people in poverty and keep people oppressed.

And it seems to me that poverty and oppression is closely tied together.

This is not to say I condone the anti-social behaviors described in previous posts that have been attributed to Romas, tinkers, and/or Gypsies [pardon my lack of familiarily with these terms]. Because of have no personal knowledge of these people, I can't say if the behaviors described are typical.

What I can say is that lumping all Romas, Gypsies, and tinkers together and attributing negative behabviors to all of them sounds disturbingly similar to what has been [and to some extent still is done] with Black people.

And I don't like it one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM

Azizis earlier comment is interesting..
ie..
...if Romas have a bias against African Americans,
I would still feel that they should not be the target of any governmental, institutional, or personal discrimination, but as an African American, that would make a difference in how I felt about that group...

...
if you make a decision to feel anyway about a 'group' ..
sounds like racism to me...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:16 PM

You are right. I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:29 PM

And if an individual of another race or ethnicity dislikes me and/or Black people in general because of race/ethnicity [since there are numerous Black ethnicities, too], I am aware that it would be wrong to reciprocate based on racial/ethnic reasons.

But what I meant by that earlier post was if this was an attitude that was documented to be widespread in that person's group, I would be less inclined to direct my limited energy on behalf of that group's causes.

Perhaps I should feel otherwise, but as the saying goes among African Americans [and maybe others too] , "God isn't finished with me yet".

Translation=I'm not perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:52 PM

Gypsies and other travellers in the UK tend to live outside the cities, Black and Asian people tend to live in the cities, so occasions for contact between them are relatively uncommon.

I remember when I was a social worker I had a black colleague who had occasion to work with some travellers with a disabled family member - she said that she always felt that they just saw her as another housedweller and official, with those being the significant differences, rather than anything to do with colour or that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM

I think it is true that gypsies, tinkers and/or Rom are all victims of racism but perhaps a better explanation would be that the tension exists between the land owners and those without a home.

In the case of the Roms of Romania, racism is being used as an excuse to discriminate against the poor, uneducated and homeless.

And yes, Azizi, those that escape discrimation and are easily assimilated into White culture often forget the suffering of their own people. The attitude seems to be that if they can do it, anyone can do it when, in fact, they may have achieved their status due to their light coloured skin or their ability to 'pass'. Its true that hard work and perserverance play a part but that is not the whole story. Quite often there is a tendency to want to disassociate with a culture that seems to 'hold you back'.

Did you know that among the socially elite, the colour of your skin means nothing? Racism is a tool used by the upper classes to keep the middle and lower classes separated. If people could just get past racial attitudes, the middle and lower classes might find some political strength.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:15 AM

This line, "I respect the true Romanies, but these are just tinkers" is the modern equivalent of "some of my best friends are Jews but..", or "I'm not racially prejudiced but.."

Simply a cover for the last officially acceptable racism in Europe. A convenient crack for the neonazis to stick their skewdriver into.

dinavan:

"From what I understand, the gypsies of Romania were brought to Europe from Pakistan as slaves. "

That's simply tripe. For a start, Pakistan didn't exist until 1947. The Roma seem to have turned up in Europe in the early mediaval period. They may well have travelled from Northern India, but as far as anyone can tell it was under their own steam.

But it's absolutely true that they have suffered serious discrimination over the years, and that this is not only still going on but intensifying.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Roma and Romania are distinct things.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:54 PM

When they came for the ................ I said nothing because I was not ..................

When they came for ............. I said nothing because I was not ........

When they came for me their was no one left to say anything

Now, who said that then?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:14 PM

For you Guest:

"c.1300. The Romani Aresajipe; the arrival of Roma in Europe.

Romani groups begin to be enslaved in southeast Europe.

1322. Roma are recorded on the island of Crete.

1348. Roma are recorded in Prizren, Serbia.

1362. Roma are recorded in Dubrovnik, Croatia.

1373. Roma are recorded on the island of Corfu.

1378. Roma are recorded living in villages near Rila Monastery, Bulgaria.

1384. Romani shoemakers are recorded in Modon, Greece.

1385. The first recorded transaction of Roma slaves in Romania.

1387. Mircea the Great of Wallachia indicates that Roma have been in that country for over one hundred years."

Google Roma Gypsies if you doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:36 PM

thats pretty much what guest said, they arrived in the medieval period,
no - evidence they were brought as slaves.
and not just to romania, but all of Europe.
(Romania - also has nothing to do with the term Roma)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: hilda fish
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:37 AM

I always read these sort of posts with total interest but often these days I don't comment - it's just too hard. Roma used to travel outside the towns here and stay in my people's camps - thus my blood is Indigenous and Roma as is very many of my people. However we identify as Indigenous and we have various shades yeller feller being one - which would be how I'd be described. From the non-indigenous group I'm not dark AND not light enough and from the indigenous people I am often not dark enough. In America I am regarded as 'coloured' but not 'black' and Afro Americans have looked down on me as not knowing 'where it's at' because I don't fit the 'dark enough' tag. In Europe on the other hand, I am regarded as black by white Europeans and treated as an 'exotic' while Africans etc. regard me as 'white'. Often there is a hierarchy and it seems to be based on the idea of how much one has suffered but also about education and property? The blacker you are, the hierarchy seems to suggest, the more one understands oppression. Certainly I can hide more easily in the white group if I choose.   Interesting story - once while with a former partner we visited one of his musician friends whose husband was Dutch. He was a a charming man in every way but one day, while we were in his workshop he made the comment 'if I was ever aware of a gypsy around me I would kill it' while wielding an axe. My partner almost gave me away thinking it was a joke but fortunately I stopped him in time. This man continued, with the support of his wife, to elaborate on his hatred of gypsies who he clearly saw as not even a sub-human class who broke laws, stole, had no idea of private property etc. In his vitriol he included Indigenous peoples who he saw as useless and worthless, filthy and shameful. Another story - while in a remote region of this country another partner and I called into a garage and the owner who had a pack of dogs, explained how they could sniff out and rip to bits any Indigenous person. My partner was also about to give me away as an illustration of how the dogs had clearly failed in their task but I once again stopped him in time. This man also went on and on about what a disgusting sub-species we were who did not 'get' any part of civilised society. Later when this partner asked if I were attacked or threatened by any white person in this remote region what should he do? I told him to disappear and leave them to it. I would need him to rescue me and take me to the hospital later. If he tried to defend me in any way he would be killed. So - gypsies - or anyone - who is said to be 'unlawful' becomes, by definition a sub-class of the human species and that is a good start to being complicit in an act of murder. Many murders are called genocide and this is where a group of people are simply killed for what they cannot help - who they are. It doesn't matter if they are law abiding or not, clean or not, on the road or in a house - we are all human being but sometimes I have to pretend that who I am is not but who 'they' think I am is, if that makes sense. It's called survival and it's about trying to make sense of an imposed culture that has its own laws and talks about democracy while completing stomping all over minority cultures. I met many Gitane/Gypsy whatever in Europe who live in terror as they do in many parts of the world, hidden or not. Heirarchies seem to me to be based often enough, on property and education. Gypsies don't 'own' land - Indigenous people don't 'own' land - and we do have the right to live on this planet as human beings without being killed or the sort of discussions above where we are talked about like bloody ants or something which is to be observed, commented on, dehumanised, and then ........... oh dear - killed. Oh dear oh dear. I'm off like a rocket! First post re movie is spot on as is comment re Latchmo Drom.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:16 AM

Excelent post, Hilda Fish. It's the case unfortunately throughout the world, and not just against Roma but always against outsiders. Chechens in Beloruss for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:19 AM

Dianavan please read that timeline again. Some were being purchased as slaves AFTER they were there already. Vlachs were made slaves too, as were just about everyone poor.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:27 AM

Ewan MacColl put it far more eloquently than I could:

O, the gypsy is a gentleman,
And he always knows his place,
He never troubles anyone
And rarely shows his face,
He knows the ways of nature,
He's reticent and shy
And never pesters Gorgios
To sell or yet to buy.

CHORUS:
And the wind is on the heath,
And the heath is far away,
From towns and private property
Where decent people stay.

0, the gypsy is a gentleman
He's happy and content,
He doesn't live in Dorset
Or in Hampshire or in Kent.
His sun is always shining,
His sky is always blue,
He's wise and proud and courteous,
He's loyal, brave and true. (Chorus)

0, the gypsy is a gentleman
And he always tips his hat,
His face is weather-beaten
And he wears a red cravat.
He wanders through the forest
Adding to his gypsy lore,
Or he's leafing through Lavengro
And he's never, ever poor. (Chorus)

0, the gypsy is a gentleman
Give credit where it's due,
He never parks his caravan
Where it can spoil the view.
And if you find a pony
Grazing in your garden plot,
Don't blame the noble gypsy,
But that awful tinker lot. (Chorus)

0, the gypsy is a gentleman,
He keeps well out of sight,
His caravan is picturesque,
It's colourful and bright.
He's full of ancient wisdom and
Of wit he has great store
Not like those thieving Diddies
Who come knocking on the door. (Chorus)

0, the gypsy is a gentleman,
And he plays the violin,
And tinkers and hedge-mumpers,
They are not of his kin.
When you smell the smell of woodsmoke
And the hedgehog in the pot,
You'll find him carving objects d'art,
.... not like that other lot! (Chorus)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:22 AM

Very eloquent and to the point, that song. I'm surprised that it's Ewan McColl's, not by the sense but by the style. It reads more like Leon Rosselson or Sydney Carter. Good song anyway. (Is there a song list of Ewan McColl's lyrics anywhere on line? I'm sure there are a whole bunch that most of us won't have ever come across, he wrote so many.)

And thanks for that fascinating post, hilda. Australia tends to get left out of dicussions about this subject.
..............................

It's worth nothing the way that the term "travellers" - which was adopted as a way oif avoiding some of the prejudice against "gypsies", and also as a reflection of the fact that travelling people from all backgrounds have a lot of common history - has now come full circle so that it is used as an insult and a way of putting people down. With the convenient let-out for the likes of Michael Howard "Oh, we don't mean real gypsies..."   Rather like saying "I don't mean real Jews, like in Fiddler on the Roof."

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:32 AM

Yeah it does read more like Rosselson but it is MacColl. Wonder if it's possible to bombard Howard's email with the Moving On Song.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:03 AM

Not a list of all McColl songs but a list of all in the Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook:
MacColl song list by titles (scroll a bit down)

The book itself has a list of MacColl songs not in the book.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:53 AM

Hilda Fish,

I also thank you for your post and apologize for those of my race who didn't accept you as a sista sista.

When I worked in adoption, one workshop that I often facilitated was the special needs and concerns of persons with 'ambiguous ethnicity' [those persons whose race & ethnicity could not specifically or 'accurately' determined by the culturally determined visual clues that most people instinctively use: skin color, hair texture, and facial features].

Because I am a brown skinned African American, folks don't have any difficult racially categorizing me. However, I know a number of African Americans who have 'ambiguous ethnicity'. Some of these people are of first generation mixed ancestry {meaning they have one birth parent who is Black and another birth parent who is another race/or ethnicity such as Latino}. However, some of these individuals are very light skinned African Americans who have two Black birthparents, both of whom are also very light skinned. And other individuals I know whose race and ethnicity is difficult to determine are non-African Americans.

At several national adoption conferences I met transracial adopted parents [Whites who adopted children who are non-White} who had adopted children from Latin America. While these children had no documented Black ancestry, their adopted parents described them as being brown skinned. These parents shared their surprise and dismay that their children had been 'labeled' as Black and had 'even' suffered racially offensive taunting. Some of these transracial adopted parents thought that by going to their children's school and providing classroom presentations on their children's Latin American culture, that would solve the problem. One recommendation that I gave these parents was that they prepare their children for racial taunting the same way that Black parents [should] prepare their childern. Even though these children from Latin America may not have been considered Black in their home country, since they were going to be mis-categorized [??} as Black in the United States, they'd better have a strong sense of self-esteem and and in addition to knowing about and feeling good about the group that their birth parents come from, they'd be better off if they knew about and felt good about Black people in general. If they have positive feelings about Black people, if someone called them Black, they could consider that a compliment and not an insult...

And that's a very short form of a long seminar...

Mudcat posters might be interested in the story of Walter White, a very light skinned African American who played a very important role in the NAACP, including attending Klu Klux Klan rallies as a 'White man' and reporting back what plans were being made.

Click here for more information on this prominent African American:
Walter White

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

reminds me there was a seinfeld episode once where elaine was dating a man & each thought they were a mixed race couple she thought him black & he thought her latino

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

Guest, since I didn't have the pleasure {?} seeing this Seinfeld episode or any other one, I take it Elaine was White, and the man was what ??? [besides a man which ideally should have been enough]

Thanks,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:31 AM

culturally determined visual clues that most people instinctively use: skin color, hair texture, and facial features (Azizi)

culturally determined??? How that?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:44 AM

he was very ambiguous looking

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:54 AM

I always get puzzled by this "Hispanic" or "Latino" racial classification Americans use. If someone from Spain emigrates to the States do they get counted as "Hispanic" or do things like skin colour come into it?
.....................

But back to the topic. Here's a quote from 1836 showing how some things haven't changed all that much. Including the fact that there are always some people who see through the fog of prejudice:

"I too well know it's truth from experience that, whenever poor Gipsies are encamped anywhere and crimes and robberies etc occur, it is invariably laid to their account, which is shocking; and if they are always looked on as vagabonds, how can they become decent people?"

Intriguingly enough, that comes from Queen Victoria's Journal for 29th December 1836. (It is quoted in the new issue of Private Eye, in a letter from "John Gardner, Huddersfield.") (NB At present that link is to the previous issue of the Eyee, since the official publication date for the new one is 15th April, which is when it should go online.)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 07:38 PM

A few weeks ago or so, there was a program on BBC Radio 4 I found very interesting:

"Wooden Heart – by Hattie Naylor

"A powerful and disturbing drama based on the real-life scandal of Jenisch Gypsy children who were forcibly removed from their parents by the Swiss government, a policy that continued in Switzerand until 1974. (45 min)"

It's no longer available to "listen again" to, but I did record it digitally, & can send it as an mp3 to anyone interested. It was a real eye-opener; I was aware this type of thing had been done to native Americans and aboriginal Australians, but had no idea that it had been done to Roma (although I was well aware they are/have been very much discriminated against).

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

Thanks Hilda Fish for your post. I too, have encountered similar circumstances. Never quite blonde enough, never quite dark enough. What is the most difficult part of being one the assimilated is that because it is not easy to identify me, I get to hear all the racist remarks that others would never say if they knew. I used to sit there and squirm but now I speak up and tell people that their remarks are racist stereotypes and that I think they are ignorant.

To Guest and Scaramouche - Sorry for the confusion. Let me clarify a misunderstanding on my part. I said I thought that the Rom had been brought to Romania from Pakistan as slaves. Perhaps they were already there when they were enslaved. Maybe it wasn't the nation of Pakistan but it was from around those parts. Maybe they didn't arrive as slaves but were enslaved once they were there. Big difference. I still stand by the fact that, " When slavery ended, they were the victims of no less than 30 pogroms, including the Nazi extermination camps."

Azizi - I agree with Wolfgang. Skin color, hair texture, and facial features are not culturally determined. They are racial stereotypes promoted by racists.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:53 PM

By "cuturally determined" visual clues that are used to determine a person's racial category I mean that those physical descriptors that the culture determines are the ones that fit a particular race.

In the United States, for instance, there are African Americans who have white skin color, blue eyes and blond hair. These people may be of first generation of mixed racial ancestry {meaning one Black birth parent who is Black, and one birth parent who is non-Black}.Or they could have two birth parents who are Black, one or both of which being very fair skinned.

There are soooo many gradations of African American skin complexion and hair texture, and facial features {nose, lips}. However, this culture has established a profile of what a Black person looks like-
light to dark brown skinned, broad nose and full lips, tightly curled hair in its natural state-this is what I mean by visual clues.

Sometimes people can't figure out "what a person is" using those visual clues. That's what I mean by persons who are of ambiguous ethnicity.

And Dianavan, it is my view that the definition of who is or is not Black or White in the United States is a racist construct in and of itself. If a person who is 'half Black and half White", wanted to say that he or she was White, and that person "looked Black", would he or she be accepted as White?

I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:10 AM

I don't think so either.

You said, "...physical descriptors that the culture determines are the ones that fit a particular race."

...and I don't think that you can say a specific culture determines physical descriptors that fit a particular race (unless you want to define that culture as racist).

I think all cultures have individuals who are racists but that physical descriptors have nothing to do with culture.

Culture and Race are two different things. I don't want to discuss race because by doing so I become racist. I am happy to discuss culture or even ethnic origins but I'll leave the discussion of 'race' to those who think it exists.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:06 AM

Dianavan, some of them were made slaves, not all, and it was by no means unique to the Roma. Just a fact of life back then.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:26 AM

...and by discussing sex you become a sexist and by discussing religion you become a bigot or sectarian?

I don't think that the physical descriptors are culturally determined. All descriptors you have mentioned, Azizi, are facial/head features. That's where we look at in other persons for very good biological reasons and not at the length of the fingers, the colour of nails or whatever.

Colour and reflectivity is something we extract from what we look at even before we can determine what it is we look at. It is obvious for biological reasons that we should use skin colour if we choose to make a distinction at all.

Shape and surface texture/structure (hair) are the next things we extract intuitively from anything we look at. That's well founded in our biological basis.

My point is that if we at all make distinctions, the features you name and the position at the body where these features are are not chosen by chance or by any culturally based decision but are exactly the features we extract first from a view for biological reasons.

The point where I see a cultural influence (but no determination) are the boundaries of the concepts. Black and white (dark and light) are no culturally based concepts. But the amount of surface reflectivity from which on one says 'black' or 'white' have no biological basis and do vary between cultures.

I think that's what you mean with your experience in the US culture that I lack of course. What amount of curled hair in combination with what skin darkness and so on makes a person be perceived as white or black can vary. I even wouldn't be surprised if that would vary from one part of the USA to the next.

The dark skin and the black hair of an Italian makes him being perceived as 'not one of us' in Norway, but not yet in Germany because there's too much overlap with how 'we' ususally look. In a society with people of a darker skin I'd expect one should be 'objectively' considerably darker to be classified differently than in for instance a culture in the very North of Europe.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: LilyFestre
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:32 AM

I have a professor who teaches a Diversity class who would disagree with you highly Dianavan. He says that to ignore a person's race is to ignore the person. It's there, it's part of the person, don't ignore it, celebrate it and the differences that we all have! I'm inclined to agree with him.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

Obviously people vary in all kinds of ways, and that is tied up with genetics, and that ties in with geographical origins - but using the term "race" just confuses matters.

When a fat man and a thin woman get married, nobody goes round trying to work out whether their children should be counted as belonging to the fat race or the thin race - are they Fattipuffs or Thinifers, to echo Andre Malraux's storybook. You don't have many arguments as to how tall a short person needs to be before they aren't counted as short. And yet height and body weight are just as much related to genetics and geographical origins.

There are Germans who look exactly like French people, and French people who look exactly like Spanish people, and Spanish people who look exactly like they come from Morocco, and Moroccans who look as if they come from West Africa. (And "gypsies" looking like any and all of these".)

Where people talking about "race" draw the line is pretty arbitrary. Some people might talk about "the German Race" and "the French Race"; other times it's "the White Race" or "the Black Race"; or "the Semitic Races" or stuff "the Aryan Race": or "Caucasians" or "Hispanics". And all those classifications have some kind of reality, but it's not the same kind of meaning.

"Race" is a construct as artificial as the lines drawn on maps between countries. And like lines drawn on maps between countries it has real consequences in the real world - but that doesn't mean the lines aren't pretty artifical.

I think there are better ways of talking about the differences between people, and that the pseudo-scientific expression "race" , with all its sinister historical baggage, should be dispensed with.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:00 PM

the pseudo-scientific expression "race" , with all its sinister historical baggage, should be dispensed with

I disagree (well, I wouldn't mind another term).
'Social class' is also a term which people define differently and with unexact boundaries and nevertheless it is usefull.

Even if you drop the term, you'd have to define for instance in the USA by some agreed upon definition who will have the benefit of minority membership for university admissions. You have to define who is 'black' in the sense of having slightly different admission criteria. Otherwise you couldn't 'level the playing field' (Bobert's expression). If not, you'd quickly have lots of whites feeling 'black' (just on admission day).

You could used another definition (family income, for instance) as has been argued by several in these threads, but the opposition here has been very strong. Ask Bobert if he'd give up the term 'black' for a definition by family income when talking about measure to 'level the playing field'.

You cannot help any underpriviledged group without defining who is counted among them. If you give up the term 'race' (or any replacement of it) you'd give up helping any group which is persecuted for their race.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 01:16 PM

The counter argument to that one about levelling the playing field would be that, if you just rely on "black", defined on some arbitary decision as to how "black" someone is, you'd find yourself discriminating in favour of Colin Powell's children over the children of some poor white sharecropper. And that's just the thing that gets used to discredit the whole idea of positive discrimination as a way of levelling up the playing field, because in that particular case it has the reverse effect.

So to be fair and effective that kind of thing has to be done in a way that is much more sensitive, and relates to the actual situation of the people involved, rather than following these broadbrush definitions.

When people are getting persecuted on grounds of "race" it's necessary to take account of it as something that exists in the minds of the persecutors, but that doesn't mean adopting it. Otherwise it could imply refusing to help some victims of persecution because they were seen as belonging to the wrong race. And of course that does happen sometimes.

"Biogeographical diversity" is a term that sometimes gets used to talk about the way that people (and other animals, and plants for that matter) do vary, but do so in a much more complicated way than implied by the term "race". It's a bit of a mouthful though.

But in fact it's quite possible to manage without actually using the word "race" - if someone is persecuted for being a Gypsy, or a Jew, I can't see how it helps in fighting that to adopt the language of the persecutors and talk about them being persecuted for being a member of "the Gypsy Race" or "the Jewish Race". You don't have to believe people persecuted actually are witches to fight against the persecution of witches.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:40 PM

Wait a moment...'proper Gypsies' = good, 'tinkers' = bad? Sorry, i'm just trying to ascertain which prejudices it's acceptable to have...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:12 PM

>>When I lived in Japan I had to carry an 'Alien Registration Card' at all times as well as having my finger prints taken when I did register.

This was a bit of a surprise as no Japanese citizen has to carry an ID, only foreigners. On looking into it and talking to friends I found out more about the treatment of ethnic Koreans and Chinese. These are groups of people who have been born in Japan often to parents who were taken as forced labour prior to and during WWII. They can never get full Japanese citizenship and are not allowed to take jobs in management positions. A recent case was highlighted where a nurse applied for a sisters position in a hospital but due to her Korean ethnicity it was refused despite the fact she had been born in Japan and Japanese was her first language.

These groups more often than not do not marry 'full' blooded Japanese even if they take Japanese names as background check are carried out of the prospective partners as to their parentage and heredity.

Even amongst the Japanese there is a sub group called the burakumin who are descendants or children of those Japanese who worked with butchering meat, preparing leather, or burying the dead. In olden times they were called 'eta' (filth) and were forced into the lowest and dirtiest jobs such as night soil collectors. This group is forced to intermarry as 'normal' Japanese would not marry them.

Add to that the dalit class in India and you have millions of people in the East who are disadvantaged by their background.

I have seen some pretty blatant discrimination here in Shanghai where Shanghaiese (who are probably the worst) refer to non Shanghai people as waidiren. They are not just verbally rude to them but often will serve Shanghaiese first in a shop or even just ignore them or try and cheat them. But the howls of outrage when Shanghaiese are similarly treated when the boot is on the other foot is a joy to see.

Blatant racism is not just a European phenomena but alive and well in the far east. <<

Obviously you have absolutely no idea what the term "racism" means. Japan is xenophobic--they dislike anyone of any race when they are gaijin. The US is racist. They dislike foreigners only when they are non-white.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: hilda fish
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:02 PM

Race and identity are tied up with culture - it's not an abstract idea. It's a reality of peoples lives, particularly if they are not white or not part of the 'master' race where race and identity is confirmed through the cultural practices with which we are all surrounded. To deny race, colour of skin, history, background, is not only to make a person invisible, it becomes part of the process of colonisation - if we are invisible in our own reality but visible when someone else tells us who we are that is part of a process of colonisation that has been going on for centuries. As Azzizi says, a sista is a sista as also, a bro' is a bro' and there's lots of ways to tell who we are - skin, race, cultural practices, but mainly, not white is the biggest signifier, and accepting that we know who we are. No-one else is gonna tell us and if they do - once again I note the 'magnifier' and the 'ant' anomoly above, well, we know where they're coming from. Listening to what and how people say they exist is a good start rather than imposing the white stereotypes that become an awful tool of domination. If you empty the body of itself, then of course, you can fill it with your own blood, and your own shit.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:36 PM

It seems to me that while colour of skin, history and background are real, and those kind of things are important for people, and link people and are things to respect and celebrate, to give them the label "race" is to adopt the language of the oppressors, and tends to play into their hands.

When it comes to the wide variety of Travelling people, who have all kinds of skin colour and a variety of histories, talking in terms of "race" has been and continues to be used as a way of fostering division and discriminating against particular groups, and ultimately against all of them. That doesn't mean that the differences don't exist or that people should be ashamed to assert their identity as Romanies or as Paveys or a whole range of other peoples. But those things aren't a matter of "race".

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: mindblaster
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:32 PM

So what's wrong with being a tinker? The only reason we roam is because we were evicted from our farms by the english, who replaced us with scotch prisoners. Alright for these scotch who got our land free, in return for allegiance to the crown. This was the root cause of present trouble in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:43 PM

Nothing's wrong with being a tinker, so far as i can see. I've had friends who were tinkers, and friends who were Romany gypsies...one thing i did find repugnant about the Romany gypsies was their attitude to women, which was not very civilised.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:10 AM

McGrath, you explain it much better than I do.

Wolfgang - I can talk about religion and sex because I believe they are real. I do not believe that race has any basis in reality and is simply a means of oppression. I do not want to use oppressive terms of reference.

You may disagree, but it is my understanding the race does not exist and that, genetically speaking, we are related to one ancient, African mother. Our difference are indeed due to biogeographical diversity.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:45 AM

"Obviously you have absolutely no idea what the term "racism" means. Japan is xenophobic--they dislike anyone of any race when they are gaijin. The US is racist. They dislike foreigners only when they are non-white. "

They are non too keen on Europeans either. So your point is really rather fatuous.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:24 PM

'You may disagree, but it is my understanding the race does not exist and that, genetically speaking, we are related to one ancient, African mother. Our difference are indeed due to biogeographical diversity.'

Absolutely true, but human variation does and racism exploits it.

Racism = prejudice + power

Very few of us treat others unpleasantly or unjustly on a personal basis, especially when we meet face to face. Racism tends to grow in a sea of ignorance in which politicians fish.

Michael Howard knows what he is doing.

Some immigrants and some asylum seekers are not genuine, legal or honest. Most of this can be said about some breast feeding mothers, nurses, doctors, teachers, school crossing patrol workers, banjo players, directors and shareholders of companies and members of parliment.

So why does he single out immigrants and some asylum seekers rather than my list? In your mind and in heart you know he is evil.


So why does he single

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM

"Are you thinking what we are thinking" In fact this slogan is an adaptation of the one used by the French fascist Jean-Marie Le Pen when he was running for President and appealing to anti-immigrant voters - "Notre programme est-ce que vous pensez".

Further back both slogans echo the one Barry Goldwater used when running for President - "In your heart you know he's right. (To which the most eloquent riposte was perhaps "In your guts you know he's nuts".)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM

That's even worse then. Surely he was advised that Le Pen had used it?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM

In fact it's been s=uggested that "Are you thinking what we are thinking" is actually the idea of Howard's imported Australian election tactics guru, and comes from an imported Australian TV show for kids, "Bananas in Pyjamas" , where the phrase is a sort of theme in the show. (It all sounds very kinky to me, and the graphics on that page are consistent with that...)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:01 PM

Oh bloody hell I hated that show when they showed it here.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 06:55 PM

Just noticed that I posted up above sans cookie... so I'll just mention that the person offering to send mp3s of the program about the Swiss government taking Jenisch/Gypsy children away from their parents was me...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:07 PM

Oh no, it IS from bananas in pyjamas, at least they do say it alot. Knew it rang a bell somewhere.

The bananas are called B1 and B2 and they live next door to the teddies.

    " The bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs
    The bananas in pyjamas are chasing teddy bears. "

God, I could have done without remembering that.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:30 PM

Sounds like something Michael Jackson might record...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:35 AM

The only Rom I knew well was thinking of leaving the road and settling down. He didn't like the company that was on the road with him, he didn't like the total shit they left on the sites where he had once been used to stopping, and he didn't like the way that he was 'tarred with the same brush as them'.
However, he also didn't like to pay income tax, he didn't like the fact that his kids had to be registered at every school that they attended, and he DID expect to get free medical treatment on the National Health. (This was in England, when treatment was mostly paid by the taxpayer.)

In a book I once read, the locals were very much against the Navigators who were building the canals. It seems they were violent, drunks, thieves, and they left shit behind them. They were also mostly English, born and bred.
It doesn't take much intelligence to see the pattern, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:06 AM

The danger is seeing a pattern where their isn't one.

Once we have decided that a pattern exists we tend to accept the evidence that supports the pattern and ignore the evidence that challenges the pattern.

So, instead of a rough generalisation we end up with complicated stereotypes that cast all .............. as ...................

Migrant workers do generally suffer from racism (Robert Miles, Racism and Migrant Labour around 1987)eg. Chinese cockle pickers and other agricultural workers suffer, Doctors, nurses and entertainers much less so.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 04:03 AM

Hi Joe & Ebbie

Just as an aside, there are Romainian Gypsies here in the US & they're not that invisible, they just don't like to show themselves, unless they feel they can trust you, because of the treatment they've received. As a teen I grew up for awhile with teens from the Bimbo clan until they moved off to somewhere else in the city. Over the years we'd run across one another once in awhile & treated each other as if we were picking up where we just left off the day before. They never went to any formal schools but were, I guess you could say, Home Schooled buy the clan & were very proud of the education they received which was tailored towards they're life style. I remember where a king of a gypsy clan was gravely ill & at the Peter Bent Brigham Hospital (Boston). The gypsies camped (& there were a lot) on the hospital lawn not causing any problems. It was amazing that the neither the Boston Police Dept nor the hospital security made any attempt to move them off the property. They were left alone to camp & wait for news on their leader. I don't recall the ones I chumed around with them having any racism directed their way, though that may have been because I grew up in a very poor & tuff neighborhood where we all were so low on the respectability list that you could break both legs just jumping off a dime. I guess we were all in the same boat trying to survive

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:46 PM

Just to clarify things - there are Roma people, who can also be called Romanies or Romani Gypsies, in countries all over Europe. One of these countries is called Romania, and there are a lot of Roma there (and they have a lot of problems). But "Romania" and "Roma" or "Romani" are completely different words, with competely different origins.

It gets a bit confusing because of course Romanis from Romania are Romanian as well as being Romani. But it's an important distinction to make, because most Romanies or Roma do not come from Romania. I got the impression from that last post by Barry that he was using "Romanian gypsies" where he meant "Romani gypsies" without any implication they came from Romania.