BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM

"Sally"--

1) When was the last time Warren Buffet worked as a low-level employee at Walmart? Please enlighten us.

I have nothing but respect for him as an investment guide and for his unquestioned long-term success and business acumen.

(As usual, Doug R does not know what he is talking about. You'll have to get used to that. Well, at least it's something certain in an uncertain world).

By the way, are you aware that Buffet was one of Kerry's economic advisors? In fact, he little respect for many of Bush's policies, especially his tax policy and his cavalier atittude toward the deficit.

However, I suspect that as a barometer of the happiness of low-level Walmart employees, he's not in fact a "reliable gauge".

2) Still waiting for your sources on your figures. What the CEO says in a speech, unfortunately, doesn't cut it--he doesn't qualify as an objective source. I take nothing on faith--neither should you. My figures, as I said, are from the Wall St Journal 28 Mar 2004--you're welcome to check.

3) I have nothing against discounters--if they treat people right. Again I ask--if Walmart is wonderful, why are some of their employees on welfare? Also, what is your view on the bill in the Maryland legislature I cited earlier?

4) Regarding charitable contributions--in an earlier thread Kendall pointed out that Walmart is actually often far less generous than the local businesses they drive out of business.

5) A few figures, from the Wall St Journal article:

In 2004 Walmart paid starting salary of $7.65/ hr for cashiers at its Las Vegas supercenter. That's below poverty level. Costco paid starting employees at least $10/ hr. Within 3 years cashiers can make $40,000/ yr at Costco.

Your figure of $10/ hr average at Walmart means some are below that.

Not even close to a living wage.

No wonder some Walmart employees are on welfare.

And Walmart, it's pretty clear, will never pay a living wage until the workers force them to do so, by banding together in a union. No wonder Walmart fights the union so viciously.


Interested to hear your comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:26 AM

Ron,
Will get back with you on Buffet and other details after some checking, but this is for those who wanted more proof of happy employees. Doug's right that there are certainly some associates who aren't happy, as found everywhere, but I'm impressed with some things I've learned from a Walmart Dist. Manager who listed some positive things. In his 15 years with W-M, he's seen many decisions to fire people overturned. He says he's proud to work for a company who does give individuals second chances: As a DM, he says he's spent a great deal of time on people issues to ensure fairness and a pleasant working environment. Some examples he's been involved in or has known about thatinvolved others:

1) When a store manager he liked hiring former inmates whose offenses were such that he knew other associates would be safe. The reward in seeing them turn their lives around was priceless.
2) Morning meetings are important to show associates that they are valued: associates are recognized for doing an excellent job, for good sales in a particular department the previous day, if familly members are sick, for achievements of their children, for volunteer work in the community, etc. The meetings are important tools for maintaining a "store family feeling."   
3) In one Walmart, upper management learned that the store manager rarely held morning meetings and was fired. That store manager used the open door policy to ask for a second chance and was given a smaller store three states south. But he had learned how much value upper management places on daily contact with associates.
4) When the DM I spoke with first became a manager, he soon found that he wasn't as fully prepared as he and his superiors had thought. He trudged forward a few more months but felt he needed more time as an assistant manager. He was allowed to step down as a co-manager and within 6 months was offered another store. He felt 100 precent more prepared.
5) He has sat in meetings where he felt an employee had not been treated fairly and has assured the associate that the treatment would not continue. In addition, he has requested in front of the store mgr. that he receive follow-up from the employee to ensure that the environment is pleasant and safe.
4) A recent example was an associate who off and on missed 30 days of work during a 6-month period, was lazy, and took breaks longer than allowed. She used the open-door policy, complaining of nitpicking by an assistant manager who's an excellent role model w/a great track record. The DM listened to the woman for about 15 minutes, then cited her attendance record, history of long breaks, etc., saying he found it hard to believe that the assistant mgr. was the root of the problem. He said, however, that he'd like to see her become a model employee and gave her a second chance. He did tell her to take a "decision-making day" (time off for one day to reflect). The first day back, she took her usual break and then slipped back in the break room again for another 45 min. She was fired the following day.
5) A customer was very rude to an employee. Employee, instead of walking away as they're instructed, became angry and responded verbally with a threat. The associate, usually a model employee, was given a "decision-making" day, returned, and has continued to be a great asset. He was selected to attend the Shareholders' Meeting this coming summer and is thrilled at the opportunity.
6) This one is important and successful: Grass-roots surveys are completed via computer anonymously by all store associates once a year. Employees are asked specific questions about members of management (if info is imparted regularly regarding benefits and store procedures, if treated fairly, etc.) The final score affects a manager's eval. If serious problems are noted, home office personnel send an HR person to the store for further investigation. This process recently shed light on quite a serious problem in a store on the East Coast. A high percentage of employees threatened to walk if the manager was not removed. The HR rep determined the concerns were valid and the manager was placed as co-manager in another store within 24 hours of the investigation. That manager remained as co-manager about a year and then left W-M.
7) The company works w/employees to allow leaves of absences for health problems and for illnesses of family members.
8) I personally know a man (now at the home office) who was assistant manager at a W-M where I shopped years ago, used the open-door policy, and never received any negative treatment as a result.
Hope this gives you people a better feeling about Walmart.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:45 AM

BTW, I'm not a Republican. Always voted for the person. Didn't vote for Bush. Still think Clinton is brilliant except for his pathetic judgement. Husband and I cancel each other's votes in most elections but we're not as extremely different as Carville and Matalin. Hope some of you will still place credence on future stuff from me about W-M.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:22 AM

Ron,
I thought it would be crazy for Mr. Scott to utter facts that aren't actual facts in his Calif. speech, as many W-M haters are listening and hoping to "get him," but I'll do as you say and will attempt to find an outside W-M source for respsonding to your questions. I think you're a smart man--articulate and fair to provide sources of info--but could you please be a little less sarcastic. It would be more pleasant. To others: I've been known to utter expletives myself, mostly in the confines of my home, but it's best to leave the crude stuff out of this as well. And BTW, I'm pretty much a bleeding heart liberal Ron. Give me your source on the welfare thing about some of the W-M employees. What about welfare people at other companies? And I'm curious...how did this website get started. I just saw BS W-M when I looked up Thomas M. Coughlin, and decided to jump in. Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 08:52 AM

Sally, sorry, but those are all anecdotal. I'd still like to see some cited source besides a "company man."

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: harpgirl
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:37 AM

Read a new article about WalMart: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51521-2005Apr13.html

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 09:50 AM

Kat,
Anecdotal info is fine with me if I get the info from the horse's mouth, based on incidents that he himself experienced. If this is really important to you and you doubt the accuracy, refer to an outside source that does surveys on this topic. I agree with Ron that health insurance being offered to part-timers after two years at W-M is certainly not the same as being offered after 6 months on the job elsewhere. But having a DM at W-M tell me things that are expected (demanded?) of him with regard to treatment of associates has credibility with me. It's difficult to know whether associates interviewed are really happy. Many need their jobs, and then there are those who are disgruntled maybe from their own doings and want to get even. I guess a survey regarding turnover and reasons for leaving would be the only way to determine this. Are you not impressed with the grass-roots survey at W-M? Are you not a W-M fan and therefore wouldn't accept any positive info I came up with? If so, it's a futile effort for anyone. Hope I'm wrong to assume this.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM

I just wish that somebody could prove to me why it is Wal-mart's or any other corporation's responsibility to pay what YOU consider to be a living wage. The gov't says that they only have to pay minimum wage. If they're doing better than that then what's the problem?

This is a free country and nobody tells them that they have to work for Wal-Mart. If they're not happy then don't take the job. Eventually, the lack in quality workers will drive the labor prices up in search for those people. Let them go out and open up their own businesses or find other jobs elsewhere. And don't come back saying that the jobs that Wal-Mart offers are the only ones available. The newspapers are full of job offers. You just have to be willing to do whatever it takes to succeed in your job as well as life.

Wal-Mart is like any other large company, well, is like any other company of any size. The reason that you go into business is to make a profit. Not to make sure that everybody in your community has health care or makes $40,000/yr. They are not there to provide a valuable service to your community. If they do provide a valuable service to your community then we should thank them instead of demanding that they do more and then haul them to court if they don't or even worse than that, try to extort more money from them for higher wages. No wonder they are shutting the doors in communities that are trying to form unions. If their costs go up then, ultimately, yours do to.

You probably know down to the penny on how much you need each week to keep what you have and maybe get a little bit more. Believe me....Wal-Mart knows exactly how much they need to keep what they have and to gain a little bit more. If they can't get that, then why shouldn't they close the doors?

Afterall, nobody, whether it be an individual or a corporation, likes to lose money.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:19 PM

Sally: believe me, you will never be able to provide evidence to support your POV regarding Wal-Mart that will satisfy the Wal-Mart haters on this forum.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:23 PM

So don't feel the need to p!ss up that rope Sally....

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

Sally, I appreciate that from the horse's mouth is credible for you and I know it seems difficult to substantiate amorphous claims of "happiness", etc. Contrary to what a couple of others have said, I do not hate WalMart, I don't like their bullying tactics. I mourn the loss of small, local stores. I don't like that our culture has come to the point where people feel, as evidenced in Hubby's posting, that a company need not concern itself with bringing any value to its community; I loathe the misuse of "power over peons," which is exactly the way I view what Walmart has done ala the article for which harpgirl provided a link.

My son worked for a man who owns a LOT of rental properties in a small city, thousands of apts. He has many, many employees, makes an exceptionally decent living for himself AND pays his employees quite well, plus offers benefits, including health insurance. His rentals are clean, swell-serviced and maintained, and much sought after. Because he practises a "pass-it-on" philosophy, a sharing of his wealth, in very positive ways, his wealth continues to grow AND bring value to his community. One of the very positive things he does for his employees, after they'd been with him for over two years, if I remember rightly, is take them all, en masse, on a week's vacation, all expenses paid, every year. He hires a plane, makes all of the reservations, etc. then the whole group goes to such places as Cancun (my son loved that one!), Jamaica and other places.

My point is, he is a canny business man, he makes a good profit, yet he pays excellent wages, spends it and still has money to live very well. I think it has a lot to do with his positive attitude and the way he chooses to use that in running his business. There are other ways to run a business besides the run-over-your-competition and intimidate-your-employees way.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

The problem with anecdotal evidence, Sally, is that for every story you or Doug can produce of happiness, I can produce 10 of abuse, some with tragic consequences. My point of view is steeped in personal experience as a union organizer and community activist in the towns where these events happened. When you have folks of divergent views, such as Hubby and Doug, and myself then one must look to the evidence. This is why Ron's point of view carries more weight in the discussion, in my view, than yours or Doug's. It has cites and they come from a journal that would be more inclined to support business interests than not. I mean no offence when I say that, but yours and Doug's are based on a "he said, she said" approach.

Or you can listen to people that castigate a whole life's work with comments about "pimps and whores", or one who refers to body parts, when they can't come up with a decent argument.

I will say that I can at least respect Susu's Hubby. His arguments are philosophical, and he makes no pretense otherwise. He and I come from different points of view. He isn't pretending to be something he is not, and comes at it straight. I imagine I would enjoy drinks and lively conversation were I ever to meet him.

The other ignorant person I would have to avoid or I might have to teach him what a fat Irish boy can do, musically and otherwise.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Man you are one sick, obsessed person, big Mickey.

I doubt if you could teach me much except how often you can buy a larger belt. Please take a moment to exhale. I am having plenty of decent conversations with many Catters here and on PMs. some of them might even be about you and your......................problems.

What is your whole life's work, Mick? Oh, don't bother. I'm really not interested. I need to stay awake right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:51 PM

***chuckle*** I love making him dance.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]You don't make me dance, Big Mick.

That itch in your crack is what makes you dance, though. I feel sorry for you that it's so hard to reach.

Big guffaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

***hee hee heee**** See what I mean? Really easy. I am enjoying this.

How about a little more, little man? This is fun.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

Ron Daves:I read your laundry list from the Wallstreet Journal of last year comparing Costco with Wal-Mart.

I'd suggest, if you ever need a job, you apply at Costco. I don't think you would be particularly happy at Wal-Mart.

And by the way, did that article also quote bottom line net income figures for both companies? I'll betcha Wal-Mart made out better than Costco. Oops, forgot. Corporations aren't supposed to make money. Right Ron?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Well, fat man. I'd rather be little than fat.

Now, if you could only justify all of that killing you did in Nam.

Now, who's laughing?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:48 PM

big Mick, I take that back about the Nam thing.



Now why don't you just go and pretend that I don't exist and I will do the same about you.

Try to realize that you don't have any effect on me. I have plenty of friends here and I'm not going away because this place is just too morbidly fascinating.

So realize that Mudcat is going to have to live with both of us here and if you don't like me or my comments, I really don't care for the feeling is quite mutual. However, I believe you look for trouble and I assure you, I will not ignore you and will continue to FOLLOW YOUR LEAD when it comes to insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:50 PM

Walmart is a study in efficiency. It is structured to trim as much as possible from operating costs and deliver products cheaper than their competitors. I think it is a losing proposition to 'blame' them for doing what they do so well. It is rather for the unionists to research THEIR efficiencies, their global capabilities, and re-invent themselves as necessary.

To be competitive with someone, you can try to better yourself, or beat them on the head with a hammer until they perform worse than you do already.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM

Oh my god, robo!

I am so proud of you!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:43 PM

Martin, I accept your retraction on the 'Nam thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:57 PM

Some of you could be stand up comedians. Kat I enjoyed the story about your son's employer. What a generous man who truly values his employees. I still like Walmart because,considering it's so large, they have such emphasis on fair treatment of employees. Whoever said that for every happy employee I talk about, he can describe 10 other cases of abuse, I cringe at that. As big as these companies are, there's no doubt there's some of that--it's inevitable but I seriously doubt 10 to 1. For the most part, there are satisfied people at Walmart. I don't think they'd walk in and apply if they didn't think they were suited for that culture.

On the down side, like you Kat, I prefer smaller stores. Who wouldn't prefer Main Street USA with attractive shops and boutiques. But our culture has been slowly changing for years, and so I accept the new environment when I reflect on my childhood when I know damn well that many in my hometown couldn't afford the mom and pop prices as easily as some others. So, despite the changing countryside, I like that more people can have what only a segment of society had in the past. My biggest gripe is aesthetics. I've hated the garish "Walmart blue" buildings that invaded the scene for years and I'm happy to see that more have earth tones these days. However, while traveling I observed one W-M in a mid-Atlantic state that had signage all over the front of the building and I know that the town's planning commission and/or city council did little or nothing to negotiate for an acceptable appearance. I know these companies will work with the towns. I also hate all the vacant buildings across America and that W-M and others will build a store and 10 years later, within a mile or two, will build a supercenter. But the good news is that some cities across the country are now requiring large discounters to have a plan in writing, before they can build, as to what'll be done if their building become vacant. Now for a comment that'll tick off some of you. There's a college prof somewhere in the Midwest who assists cities and towns in their effort to fight W-M, of which I'm sure you're aware. I heard this man on MSNBC reluctantly admit that W-M has done a lot to help our economy. As I mentioned before, I'm sure they'll shift to no. 2 or 3 slot one day, but for now, by keeping prices low, people continue to buy. I'll wait for your attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Sally--

OK, Sally--no more sarcasm with you. You have established that you are a sincere woman, not a (probably male--most are, I suspect) troll. If you're a troll, you're an excellent one--fooled me good. As I'm sure you know, on the Net you never can tell and trolls are everywhere, including on Mudcat.

However, still waiting for any objective evidence from you (as Kat and Mick have pointed out, anecdotal evidence is not adequate.) RE: Walmart CEO's statement in a speech--it's actually quite safe for him, since nobody can contradict him--Walmart does not in fact give out wage rates, since, as the Journal article noted, they vary by location. (I also suspect Walmart just does not want to publicize them, but I have no proof).

I'm not surprised that a Walmart district manager is positive on Walmart (but, as Shania Twain said, "That don't impress me much"). In contrast to lower-level employees, I'm sure he is paid very well--I'd guess about $80,000 to $100,000. Ask him that.

Again, his answer does not reflect reality for lower-level people.

It's somewhat amazing to me that somebody who makes less than $10/ hr., as some do, would be called an "associate". This sounds like a salve to compensate for rock-bottom wages. But you can't eat a gobbledegook title (sorry-- sarcasm creeping back in.)

A great illustration of the welfare aspect is the Maryland bill. Since Medicaid is the program for the indigent, obviously Walmart's health insurance program is not adequate, so Maryland winds up footing the bill for poor Walmart "associates". The legislature wants Walmart to carry its own weight--by either devoting 8% of payroll in the state to health concerns or putting the difference in the Maryland state Medicaid program.

Also, my understanding is that poverty level is about $18,000/ yr. for a family of 4. At $10/ hr, I calculate that a worker would make about $19,200 / yr.--just above poverty level. But, as you point out, $10 /hr. is just an average--some are below. And, if you read the Post article linked by Kat, you find out that some full-time Walmart "associates" are limited to 28 hours per week--they would definitely be below poverty level, hence candidates for welfare----- (I'm sure Canada is not the only place they cut back hours below 40 per week.)



Oh yes, the web site. Mudcat is actually a folk-music oriented site (probably the best in the world), but it's separated into music-related topics and BS. Here, in the BS section (below the line) we discuss anything----and I do mean anything--take a gander at some of the other topics.

You're more than welcome to join us in music or non-music topics here in the "Cathouse"--and it's ferociously addictive. As you can tell, we have quite a cast of characters.

You can get a mind-boggling amount of information on music here--and from all over the world.

Wilkommen, Bienvenue, Welcome!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 11:31 PM

Sally--

We cross-posted.

Just a few more things

After Walmart has driven the local businesses out of business, employees of those businesses still have to eat, etc. So many may apply for Walmart jobs. It doesn't mean they feel they are "suited"--just that Walmart may well become the only game in town. It's either that or move--and many can't move.

Walmart "has done a lot to help our economy"--but not for those who are priced out of the job market by Walmart's constant grinding on suppliers to provide the absolute lowest price to them, so they can maintain their profit margins. Those jobs migrate to the cheapest producers--not usually in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:22 AM

Ron
I like most unions.
I derive a signifigant portion of my income through their members' utilization of deserved and hard-won benefits, but, you gotta get your facts straight if you're going to make a convincing argument.

Here in my corner of rural America, Walli-World pays over $12 for full timers and almost $10 for part-timers. Can you live on $10? Man, I know I'd sure hate to try, but most of the Wal Mart part-timers I know aren't trying. They are high school and college kids,retirees, or wives picking up hours while the kids are in school. They're not trying to live on $10/hr nor just 28 hrs/wk. They are merely supplementing the primary wage earner's income, pension, or stashing cash for college. Don't want to support a family on $12/hr @40hr/wk. either? Then it is incumbent upon you to get an education or acquire job skills that will separate you from those employed in unskilled labor positions. Stocking shelves or scanning at the checkout never was and never will be a lucritive position for its practitioners.

I too, heard the oft-repeated stories of Wal Mart coming to town and driving the competition out of business. But, in the 4 or 5 years they've been out on the fringe of our town (pop. under 10,000) the only downtown businesses to close down were a pet shop, a lunchenette and a tattoo parlor. If anything, the noon time chamber of commerce gossip would indicate an increase in volume at some retailers due to shoppers thinking that as long as they've come far from home to get to WM, they might as well pick up a few other things on the same trip to town at other local stores.

Do I shop there? Not if I can help it. Nor do many of my peers, but you wanna know why? It's because many of us regard Wal Mart as "outsiders". Most of the families in rural America plant roots. Deep roots. And then they remain close to those roots. Not for years. For generations. Profit taking interlopers like Wal Mart are regarded by many "locals" as the 21st Century version of carpet baggers, and much like their 19th century counterparts they seem unavoidable and often unstoppable.

I'm glad there are folks who try to keep this "Day of the Locust" from being at hand, but you gotta do more than create and then defeat "straw man" arguments like you fed poor Sally.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

Ron,
Thanks for your input. Music is a big part of my world--classical, rock, and folk in that order. I'm a big CCR fan. Also looking for an old version of an opera (Le Perichole--not sure of spelling) that I can't find and will plea for help from classical music buffs later; however, this might not be a good website for that one. More on Walmart on Monday after an out-of-town overnighter. Auggie had some good points, accurate I'll add. Ninety percent of part-timers at W-M are supplementing their income derived at another job--unless students. I agree with you that some work there knowing they aren't a good fit. I do know a music major in a rural town who hated dealing with disciplinary problems teaching in the public schools, so she's at one of the county's only two places of employment where she can receive benefits -- Walmart! She's very happy there, which surprised me with her background, but I think it's a time in her age when she needed the Walmart family, despite the culture that would get old with--if I had to work there....no offense to anyone. W-M has a great place in our society. More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

If you think my arguments are "straw men", talk to Big Mick, who has been dealing with the reality--and that's what it is--for probably decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:43 AM

Also, you have chosen, for some unknown reason, to dodge the question about the Maryland legislature and the "Wal-Mart" bill. Now I wonder why you did that.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 11:53 AM

The above 2 messages were for Auggie, not Sally.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: RichM
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 02:56 PM

Whatsa matter, Martin? 'Cat got yer tongue?

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:56 PM

No, been busy living RichM, while you are staring at a websaite just waiting for my return.

I am just so impressed that Ron Davies quotes Shania Twain. It just adds so much to his intellectualism. Next thing he will be quoting Brittany Spears.

Wal-Mart rules. Best place to buy and save.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:51 PM

I suppose your local newspapers reported today (Sunday) that Wal-Mart has just closed a store in Canada because the workers voted to unionize. I suppose most of you will view this as a hostile act against labor, right. I think the company figured it could not meet future union demands and still return the type profit it's shareholders expect.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

That right, DougR.

Wal-Mart cannot survive if it has to pay fair wages and benefits.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:27 AM

Horse pucky, dianavan. Wal-Mart will show a profit or close the doors. It's not whether or not there is a profit, but rather how much. Shareholders of Wal-Mart stock, which includes a lot of "common folk" are anxious that the profit be as much as possible of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:16 AM

Thats why I would never invest in Wal-Mart. I prefer ethical funds. Since when do "common folk" have enough money to invest? Certainly not the "common folk" who work at Wal-Mart!

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,pinion
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:31 AM

Once again Martin Gibson proves himself to be a complete idiot. Just because the heat has not shown its affect in the Walmart store yet does not mean we are wasting our time in applying the pressure. He then goes on to lose his temper and get censored by mudcat.

The people are free to associate in unions. Any corporation which chooses to violate those rights does so at thier own risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Fairminded Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:57 AM

Ron,
Since, as you read in my previous comments, for the most part I defend Walmart. I'm amazed, however, that I've shared with you guys the things I do and don't like about Walmart and other big discount boxes. I want to know more about the Maryland thing but I have to study elsewhere. Like you guys don't put much stock in my "anecdotes" I don't feel I can trust anyone in this forum to keep it fair. The passion seems to be either love or hate. There's not an ounce of ambivalence. I resent immensely that none of you found the DM's comments to have any credibility whatsoever. Not one of you said, "that made me feel better, but I hope he wasn't just sounding forth to make Walmart look good." And why aren't you all down on other companies who aren't unionized? And why don't you talk about the negative aspects of union involvement. The original intent was good, but there are plenty of sages throughout the years who've talked about the damage unions can do. Bib Mick, you talk about all the times Walmart hasn't followed the law.....could you please give me a long list. In the recent illegal alien thing (floor cleaning), these were subcontractors who were contracted to clean floors. Are they not responsible for knowing their employees' backgrounds. There was a regional VP in some Walmart division who allegedly accepted a kickback from a cleaning crew but that I believe was a separate, isolated incident. He was fired and deserved to be fired. But I resented that Walmart had to "settle" out of court and pay the U.S. 11 mil for the carelessness of the subcontractors. Does W-M have to police ever sub that they hire? Why is all the responsibility on W-M....because they have the bucks to pay Uncle? I thought that was grossly unfair. I reiterate that I feel that I'm the only one in this forum who'll take a look at every fact and say something like "Yea Walmart was very wrong there," or "Yes, it's wonderful what Wlamart gives back to the community." Kat, I think you were the one who commented that you mourn the loss of the small downtowns of yesteryear when retailers felt a sense of community (I'm obviously paraphrasing here). I think Walmart does a great job to give back. And all the passionate Walmart haters don't trust W-M's motives. I'm amazed that one of you mentioned that for every 10 associates who are happy, he knows 10 cases of abuse. And you guys won't accept MY anecdotes? I did ask the DM about his background....he grew up in a blue collar neighborhood with rabidly prejudiced parents. Today he's a different person, valuing his fellowman. He told me that he's proud to say that his mother today is a different woman. The DM dropped out of college after two years, and wishes he had finished but said that for now he doesn't desire going back---might one day after retiring. Although he started with Walmart as an assistant manager (had managed for another retailer, he said that he's proud about 75 percent of his company's store managers started out as lower level associates. I have to do more checking regarding other comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

BTW, I have a lot on my plate, facing a house move, so please forgive me if my sentence construction isn't as clear as it should be--don't have time to proof. Just try to get my message--that's all I ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Union Guy
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:06 AM

There is an easy way to fix Wallyworld. Stop shopping there.

Also every body that is being fucked employment wise should quit.

UG

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST,Sally
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:39 AM

Union Guy,
Many people can't just quit their jobs. It's better to resolve if possible unless the abuse is so widespread that it's hopeless. I took a boss to HR years ago and the process was fair. I did get permission from the boss before going to HR. We were able to continue our working relationship with no more problems. There really are some people out there who'll stop their shenanigans if higher ups demand it. I'm amazed that none of you gave any credence to my telling you that I personally know a W-M associate who used the open door policy and had no problems from having done so. My emails this morning are not about "poor me" but to let you see how I feel about this forum. One more question. Do the Walmart haters on this forum EVER shop at W-M? I hope you don't. I think it's uncanny that many of the people in a Charlotte, NC suburb who worked hard to get signatures to petition against plans for a W-M in their area are big shoppers there today. One of the women in this neighborhood says they all laugh about it now. I believe that if you believe a company isn't ethical, you should be big enough not to walk in and take advantage of their low prices. With many people it's about ego---not wanting anyone to think they'd stoop to a discount box.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

To all WM bashers concerned:


If you want to pay thirty to forty percent more for your personal items at some mom and pop shop, then by all means, please do it. Quit telling us how to do our shopping. I really don't blame WM for closing the doors at the sight of union organization. If I were a business owner, which on three separate occassions I was, I'd close my doors also if I was threatened with extortion from some union. There are plenty of people out there that know exactly what they want and don't want. I think that most people know that there are more illegal activities going on inside unions all across the country than there ever has been going on inside Wal-Mart. Don't continue to think that a union is the ultimate answer. It seems in this case to be the reason why lots of people LOST their jobs rather than receive an increase in pay. What about those people who didn't want to join the union? Where are they now? Probably working for minimum wage in the mom and pop store instead of making better than minimum wage and having some type of benefits offered to them. But I guess that is OK with all of you. It seems to give steam to your cause when unions cause people to lose jobs and benefits and add to the roles of people on welfare.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

And the unions blame the corporations of course.

For your information, dianavan, since you don't seem to know it, lots of "folks" own stock in Wal-Mart, including Associates. Wal-Mart offers 401k plans, as well as stock purchase plans to their employees.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:44 PM

Okay, here are some excerpts, with sources. Fair warning, the last link leads to MANY articles which I have not waded through, so DON'T blame me if you don't agree with some of them; I post them as a matter of interest and will read some as I get time. Good luck on your move, Sally.

UC Berkeley study estimates Wal-Mart employment policies cost California taxpayers $86 million a year

"By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 02 August 2004

BERKELEY – Employment policies at Wal-Mart, the nation's largest employer, cost California taxpayers approximately $86 million a year in public assistance to company workers, according to a University of California, Berkeley, study released today (Monday, Aug. 2).

"The study indicates that Wal-Mart workers in California rely on the state for about $32 million annually in health-related services, and $54 million a year in other assistance such as subsidized school lunches, food stamps and subsidized housing." (there's more via the link)

From the Terra Haute Business Journal:

Click here for full text (I would urge you to read the whole thing)

"This lawsuit involves more than 113,000 potential plaintiffs, amounting to all Indiana Wal-Mart employees—including those working at Sam's Clubs—from August 1, 1998, to the present, and involves allegations that Wal-Mart and its managers refused to allow employees lunch and other breaks, as well as other violations of Wal-Mart employment policy and Indiana law regarding off the-clock and overtime work.

"Reynolds Brissenden, attorney with the firm representing the plaintiffs, said in a telephone interview that these alleged violations were systematic and profit-motivated. "I will say this, it's remarkable how employees that we've interviewed from the same departments, but from stores as far north as La Porte and as far south as Evansville, have faced the same problems of not getting their breaks and of not being paid for all the time that they've worked," Brissenden said. "Plaintiffs contend in this case that it's not by accident, it's by design."
    "Plaintiffs state that Wal-Mart maintains a labor budget for each store, known as the "Preferred Hours Budget," at corporate headquarters, located in Bentonville, Ark. Each store manager is responsible for his or her own budget, which must in turn be approved by the district manager, according to the demands of the Preferred Hours Budget."


Lots of article links at WalMart Workers of Michigan

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

Guest, Sally, are you also "fairminded Sally". Regardless, keep contributing to the thread. Your words may appear to be ignored and yet you'll find someone will glom onto this thread and appreciate them. Also, I believe most of the people on this thread are in fact fairminded (in the long run). I just watched an American public television show, FRONTLINE, episode titled "Is Wal-Mart good For America?" I liked the show because I think it presented both sides and did not draw its own conclusion. It did not deal with union issues at all, rather it dealt with the changes in the American economy wrought by Wal-MART as being such a large consumer goods force that it now dominated its suppliers, which is a major change in the order of economic structure in the US. And driven by (extremely) cheap overseas labor, Wal-Mart has chosen (rather recently, beginning in the 90's) to be supplied by overseas suppliers (read: China) directly supplanting local labor, from blue collar to white collar as entire companies go under or are bought by other companies.

Wal-Mart representative justly said that consumers are the big beneficiaries because they can buy goods at lower prices. Displaced workers say the United States is the loser as goods are produced overseas and jobs go with them.

I don't think it is obvious who is right or wrong just yet. As usual, the economy is like a deadly serious game of Musical Chairs, and the rewards go to the adaptable. But is there enough raw material to keep all the adaptors going? The balance of trade suggests the answer is: "no", but that's my first cut answer. The US economy has proven to be quite ruggedly adaptable before and there may be surprises in the old gal yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 02:25 PM

From Walmart's own policies:

5. BUY AMERICAN COMMITMENT

    Wal-Mart has a strong commitment to buy as much merchandise made in the United States as feasible. Vendor Partners are encouraged to buy as many materials and components from United States sources as possible and communicate this information to Wal-Mart. Further, Vendor Partners are encouraged to establish U.S. manufacturing operations.

Nearly everything I've ever seen at a Walmart has a "Made in China" label on it. Seems they were smart to include the caveat, "as feasible" in the above. What irks me is they are a big enough company that they could have a strong and real effect on changing this, as robomatic has pointed out they've done to the Amercican economy.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:06 PM

[bleep - for antisocial behavior]Guest, Pinion I understand that you are on the verge of bankruptcy because of how poorly you spend and manage your money.

fuck unions where they are not wanted.

Unions have driven most labor costs right to China.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: jpk
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:49 PM

i can live with or without wm, i will not buy from there,reason being,when you walk into a wm,you can smell the cheapness.not in price, but in quality.cheap as in you get less than you paid for.each to his/her own i guess

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

jpk, maybe you are just smelling the inside of your nose.

Or maybe it's the poor people that can afford to shop there that offends you so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Walmart: Union-Busting SOP
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM

100th post for the workers!