BS: Bobert's Race Thread

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:25 PM

I wouldn't want to disturb you from listening to your Reba records.

I knew Bubba Cohen. He tried to re-attach his foreskin.

we don't want him back.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:33 PM

but I doubt if there's been many Jewish trailer court residents

You could be right about that, Martin, but only if you don't count any of the many thousands of Israeli settlers who live in trailer courts (and sometimes in tents) in the West Bank and Gaza as being Jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:58 PM

Thanks for the slack, Azizi. I was no way hinting that your written English was not quite standard. I was wondering just the opposite. I wondered if your oral language and your written language were the same. I know that my oral language is quite different. When writing, however, I can usually edit and clean it up so that its easier for most folks to read.

Most of the novels I was referring to were written long ago and set in a period even older. Although it was hard to understand at first, I truly enjoyed the dialect and the sensibility of authors who wrote in the words of their people. I hope that African Americans continue to use their own spicy language. It is one of the things I miss most about the U.S.

Yes, you are right - it is now African American but when I lived in the States it was Afro-American. In Canada we don't use that term because so many people here are from the Caribbean, Haiti and elsewhere. We mostly just call them neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

My friend (and banjo player in my trio) was doing his doctoral research in Africa. While living there he applied for a driver's license.

He came to the part of the application that referred to "color". Uncertain, he looked to his left and right at two dark-skinned men who stood there filling out similar forms and noticed that one had put down "yellow" while the other had marked "red".

Further puzzled, being American, and therefore assuming that by "color" they were referring to "race", but seeing two blacks fill in red and yellow instead, he went to the desk and asked the clerk what he was supposed to put in this blank.

The clerk looked at him for a second or two and then called over his supervisor. The supervisor asked my friend to show him the undersides of his arms and, when my friend did, said, "white, very".

Seems that what was necessary for the purposes of identification was description, not affiliation.

If a dark-skinned man is found unconscious and admitted to the hospital that way, by what logic is he "African-American"? Without an ability to tell you otherwise, why could he not be Jamaican or Canadian or British or...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:36 AM

Head Start is about INCOME, not RACE.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

It is and it isn't, WYSIWYG.

First of all, I did not use the word race in my post. The term I used was "exploited peoples". My point in this thread is that one thing we can do to help remedy the problems for African Americans that have been created by slavery and intitutionalized racism, is to give those who have been the vicitms of this the best education possible. Head Start can help to do this. It can also help to neutralize some of the harmful effects of exploitation of other peoples as well, and that is a good thing, but it is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make in my post. I don't understand why that would need to be an issue or even need explaining. It seems kind of obvious to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:12 PM

Actually, if we would support and fully fund many of the programs that came out of the Great Society this would go a loong way toward leveling the playing field... Plus, these are programs that help the cross section of those living in poverty, including ingiginous people and white livin' in Appilacia...

Now, throw in a guarenteed nation income and we're off an' running...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM

CarolC, are the poor white folks in my area exploited? That's who Head Start serves here.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:12 AM

I don't understand what you are trying to get at, Wysiwyg. Is there something wrong with other people besides Black people benefitting from programs like Head Start? If there is, I surely can't figure out what it might be. And who is to say that those poor white kids don't come from exploited peoples? "Exploited peoples" is, after all, the term I used. I did not say anything about race in my post.

Here is the exact wording I used:

I don't have any good answers on the subject of reparations, but I do think we owe it to the people who come from families of exploited peoples to provide them with the best education possible.

I really can't understand why you would be making an issue out of what I have said in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM

Addendum to my last post. In my 16 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM post, I said this:

My point in this thread is that one thing we can do to help remedy the problems for African Americans that have been created by slavery and intitutionalized racism

And that seems to contradict what I said in my last post. I think that is confusing and needs to be clarified. The subject of this thread is race. My first post not race specific, but I do recognize that because this thread is about race, the part of my point that is relevant to this thread is the part that addresses the benefits of these programs for African Americans. Had this been a thread about any other exploited peoples, my post would have been just as relevant, and that is how I intended it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:15 AM

CarolC, I would hope our PMs have cleared up the misunderstanding?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:32 PM

I don't have any way of finding out right now, Wysiwyg, because I am here through the back door and I don't have access to my PMs.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 12:54 PM

Ok. I've been to my PMs. It looks like it's been cleared up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,NASCAR Foe
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

And I thought this was a thread about that beer drinkin', hot dog eatin', cigar smokin' mainly white, Bobert kind of pastime, knowed as NASCAR. A all completely different kind of race.

Grand Prix (no pun intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 03:15 PM

Thanks, Carol.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:30 PM

CarolC.

Don't be stupid. In America there are not Jews living in trailer courts. In Israel, which is still a DEVEOLPING COUNTRY I do not think it would be unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:31 PM

In America, CarolC., Jews seem to work harder to have more than a trailer court lifestyle for their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:03 PM

In America, Martin, Jews seem to come from families that are well off... That's a big advantage for a kid... No so for kids born into poverty...

Poverty is a self perpetuating cycle...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: mg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:09 PM

Good heavens Bobert...they came here to American and certainly were not well off. They were tailors and rag collectors and bone collectors and many other things as well. They lived in putrid slums. The cycle of poverty can and has been broken. That is not to blame anyone in it...but the message that has to be given is that it can be broken. Main ingredients have been found to finish high school, stay off drugs and alcohol and don't be involved in pregnancy outside of marriage. That is the recipe. No guarantees it always works, but pretty good guarantees if you want a prescription for poverty start with the above. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM

They also came with a rich culture and with education and they came freely, not bound and tied in the bowels of ships... And they could choose where they lived... And they weren't terrorized with a century's worth of Jim Crow...

Get real... No comparasion at all... You are showing your your lack of understanding about history here... Some of it very recent history...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:20 PM

MG,

All the Jews I have known were working class and in some cases, working poor. Close friends among these lived, as I did, in the suburban slum surrounding the old Sky Harbor airport. If there had been a trailer court there, we'd have been there, side by side-- my house smelling of oven-broiled cheeseburgers, and theirs of kasha.

Now I live where there are a LOT of trailers. My focus now (as you know) is church stuff, and those ministries leave little time for a personal life or friends of other cultural backgrounds. However, although our area has very few people who identify as Jewish, they-- like many othter folks in the county-- live on farms and/or in houses, apartments, and-- yep-- trailers.

What this tells me is that like most groups that identify to a cultural commonality of some sort, Jews are a pretty diverse lot.

Of course for you to really believe me, I guess you'd have to come to a Mudcat Gathering here sometime, and we could do a driving tour of various trailerhoods and count mezuzahs (sp???). But then your identity would be "outed," because I would not give you directions till I'd gotten you to take an order for good Chicago dogs to bring along with you! :~)

"Outed" or not, I hope you'll come to one sometime. Lotta bluegrass here, too, so I think we could keep you entertained.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 07:24 PM

Don't hold yer breath, Wizzie, but it *would* do Martin a world of good to expand his horizons...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:58 PM

Trailer courts serve their purpose, Martin. There is no shame in living in one. For us, it is a good way to get back on our feet after most of the jobs in JtS' area of expertise (computer software consultant) got shipped to other countries. For many of the other people who live in this trailer park, it is a convenient place to live while they put in their time serving their country at the Fort Benning army base.

I don't experience any shame for the fact that we are living here for the time being (or even if we found ourselves needing to stay here). The foolish people are the ones who live beyond their means and beyond the circumstances in which they find themselvs just to impress others, or who allow their sense of self worth to be defined by their material circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:31 PM

bobert, man some of your true colors sure came out.

You are as phony as they come.

Susan, I have traveled many, many backroads in this country in just about every state. I am sure that the amount of Jews who belong to organized Judaism and keep it as part of their lives living in trailer courts or for that matter, much of rural America is infantisimil(sp).

No, there really is no shame living in a trailer court if it is clean and a good home. But I am sure that people who really care, would work harder to better themselves. I'll bet the bluegrass is decent though.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:53 PM

JtS worked very hard to get where he was when I met him. And at that time, he was earning more than $100,000 a year. These days he is working even harder than he was then... lately he's been putting in fifteen hour days in a new kind of work he's trying out. Somtimes, no matter how hard you work, things just don't go your way. And it might take us some time to get back on our feet again and figure out what is the best thing for us to be doing. But the people who are capable and resourceful, and not afraid of being made fun of for living within their means... those are the ones who can hold their heads up and feel good about themselves no matter what.

And it was JtS' resourcefulness that has enabled us to get by while we work on establishing ourselves in our new kinds of work. He was wise and smart enough to save a lot of money while he was still working with computer software. I've very proud to be married to someone as resourceful, intelligent, and competent as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM

Awwwwwwww, how touching.

I'm going to bed now.

Have a real job that I have to get up in the morning for.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:03 PM

Too bad having that real job hasn't given you any sense of self-respect. If it did, you wouldn't need to put other people down in order to feel good about yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:09 PM

MG, in these parts, some of our hardest working folks live in trailers. It's considered a respectable dwelling, and most folks in them take very good care of their homes. Hardscrabble country, but lots and lots of people who are the salt of the earth. Not too hard to see that some of them would be Jews-- honorable people whose word is good. Small numbers for sure-- not enough in this sparse rural county for a synagogue-- but they are out there.

No shit.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 11:18 PM

Don't expect an intellegent response, Wizzer.... MG is not capable... But yeah, you are right... It ain't about where one lives but what lives in one's heart....

Bobert

p.s. I've had just about 'nuff of Martin and getting ready to blockin' him out until he starts applying a few more brain cells into debating his postions and less about his racist generalizations...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:26 AM

Funny how someone who cries anti-semitism at the drop of a hat feels free to consider others trailer trash, hippies, commies, etc. It doesn't leave a whole lot of room for respect. It make me wonder why he thinks he's entitiled to more respect than he gives to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 07:28 AM

Yeah, d, Martin is the poster boy for hypocrisy...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Koonta
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:14 AM

Whatcha gots to 'member is it wuz not whiteys but Africans that cought and sol other Africans to tha slave trader ta begin wif:

African traders transported slaves from the interior of Africa. Equiano and others found themselves sold and traded more than once, often in slave markets. African merchants, the poor, royalty -- anyone -- could be abducted in the raids and wars that were undertaken by Africans to secure slaves that they could trade. The slave trade devastated African life. Culture and traditions were torn asunder, as families, especially young men, were abducted. Guns were introduced and slave raids and even wars increased.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM

Hush up there, Koonta. This is MUDCAT-

No facts that might contradict what Bobert and his ubermensch want to prove is allowed to be brought up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:14 PM

bobert, you are the poster boy for irrational radicals. It's obviously apparent that you have lost your thin cool and realize that you have lost this debate and many others, especially in my anti-semitism thread. You are what's wrong with this country just spreading a lot of lies and hate. You will NEVER be happy in America, bobert. You haven't been yet and you never will.

You are a detriment to this country and to the fairness of this website.

if you don't like it here bobert among the patriots and the non-biased who are still not clinging to a dead and buried old hippie 1960s ideology, I would suggest that you join a forum about gardening.

Wake up and smell the coffee bobert and quit smelling all of that pot, already.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM

Hey, Martin, yer the one who seems do distraught... Maybe yer the one who needs to leave...

I'm happy to live in this country and fir the most part happy with my neighbors and the folks in my community. That is why it is me, not you with yer little food closet, who is very involved with many community projects...You see, that's what good citizens do... That's why, if you'll check out the times of the day I'm here are limited to a little bit in the am and some evenings 'cause I'm out in the community trying to make stuff better for my fellow citizens. You opn the other hand are here slinging mUd at you neighbores morning, noon and night... Is that yer idea of being a good American? Oh yeah and dropping a few canned goods by the food closet? Haha...

And, no, I don't want no medal fir it so don't even offer... I do it because service to one's fellow man of one's community is worth more than all the insults you can think up if you had a million years to think them up...

With every post you are doing nuthin' but proving my point... No, I'm not loosin' any discussions because I am on the pro-human side of the equation and therefore can't loose... Sure, you and folks likeyou can pay people to kill us but you will never win, neither in this life or the next... Your debts will be paid...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:50 AM

Koonta - What you got to remember is that for a slave trade to exist on the scale that it did in Africa, there had to be a very large force driving the market. Those ships were not African.

Sure, there are always those who will profit from the misery of their brothers and sisters but it wasn't African plantations which needed the free labour to build a rich nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:04 AM

I agree with you, Dianavan, and would just amend your statement to pluralize it.

There were African ethnic groups involved in the slave trade {as my only other post to this thread mentions}. However, European nations, the Caribbean nations, and South American nations etc that were colonized by European nations, and the United States {including the North} profited from the slave trade and the institution of chattel slavery.

As an African American, I have read this thread with interest.

Frankly, I'm a bit tired of talking about the topic of race..After all, I've often been in situations where I am called upon to talk about this topic-formally and informally..and it gets to be a bit much..And my interests force me to read about slavery and history and that also becomes difficult to bear sometimes, so I have to leave it alone and think of less heavy duty topics.

I found some echo of my feelings on being Black and having to represent and learn about slavery in this link:

Henry Louis Gates, Jr. letters

Here is a link for a book review that discusses Europe and the slave trade

Europe and the Slave trade

And here is one that discusses Afrikan involvement in the slave trade:

Afikan Involvement in The Slave Trade

{the spelling "Afrikan" is one that some Afro-centric Blacks use}

I also notice that one topic of debate on this thread is Reparations. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath for any reparations..But a Formal Apology from all involved in supporting the slave trade would be nice...

For those who want to read up on the topic, as I am doing, here's an interesting article:

The Reparations Debate

And if GUEST,Koonta {as in Kunta Kinte of Roots fame?} is real,
I hope he or she sticks around and joins in further discussion and actually joins this dicussion forum.

That's an invitation if he or she needs one...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:14 AM

Not that it matters a heck of alot, but I want to note that I 'mispoke' when I said I had only had one other post to this thread. But that other post were tangential to the main topic..

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM

Let me correct my mistakes in the last post:

My other posts were tangential to the main topic of this thread..

[I'm mindful of the need to make these corrections since I went on record and stated that I write and speak Standard English.]

LOL!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:46 AM

Yes, Azizi, I would be happy to pluralize my statement to include Europe.

In fact, if you look at slavery in the world today (and it still exists) I would say that an all out end to it would be just about the best way to apologize to anyone who has suffered the degradation of slavery. Check this out for a start:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

Maybe its time. I would rather see the energy of the moral majority (and they are a major political force) being directed toward ending slavery worldwide than supporting a war which has only increased human misery and lined the pockets of the war profiteers. I hope I see the day!

I can see how the race and/or slavery question gets boring. Its kinda like people saying I don't look Native or asking me about totem poles or Native spirituality. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:29 AM

I like Aziz'z idea of a "Public Apology" and was disappointed when it was talked about in the 90's that it didn't come to fruition. I think it would have represented a very important step forward toward civility and in not doing it when it was being talked about represented a step backwards...

There are folks who like to throw around the term "personal responsibilty" yet have no interest in our society steppin' to the plate and confessin' one big ol' sin in our history?!?!.... See, I don't get that and what it tacitly says is that bad behavior is okeedokeee... Welll, it wasn't back then and it ain't today wither...
It's no wonder that the American people were so easily tricked in invading Iraq... If folks don't hold themselve accountable, as in "personal responsibility, then it easy to justify all kinds of immoral stuff...

Talk about not ownin' up, the '06 budget proposed by Bush is as immoral a budget that has ever been proposed and *disporportunately* hurts black women and children by cutting programs aimed to help impoverished people in inner cities...

                But back to "The Apolgy":

((((As one American citizen, I am truely sorry that my country engaeged in slavery. It was immoral and disgusting and a chapter of our history that we should teach our children about in a manner that would make them better citizens and better able to not be able to rationalize immoral policies. To all black Americans who are descendants of slaves, I am very sorry.))))

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:59 AM

Thank you, Bobert.

On behalf of my African ancestors who were enslaved and on behalf of any other of my ancestors who were enslaved and myself, I accept your apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

Bobert,

While I appreciate that apology from you, those who work to make this nation and the world a better place for all people without regard to race, creed, color, religion, sexual orientation, disability, and/or other things that might divide people, have no need to voice their apology to me for actions taken in the past or actions taken in the present.

Some Black people vehemently oppose the notion of a public apology in place of Reparations. Others see a formal public apology as a beginning whose intent is to lead towards Reparations from multinational corporations and nations. Still others see a public apology as enough. I am still studying the subject and waver between the 2nd and the 3rd option.

See this link on Reparations:

Reparations

I know that some African ethnic groups were very much involved in the slave trade. And I've read that some West Africans have publicly apologized for their ancestors' roles in the slave trade.

See this link for one African's apology:
African Bishop apologizes for slavery

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:51 AM

Dianavan,

Let me clarify that I never think that reading or talking about slavery or Black history is boring.

I meant to convey that sometimes I need to take a break from those subjects because they are too emotionally heavy duty for me.

Most of the times those subjects make me sad.

And sometimes they make me angry.

In my late teens and very early 20s, I went through a period when I hated some prominent historical and contemporary White people for their roles in the slavery, lynching, and institutionalizing second class citizenship.

At the same time I was desperatedly seeking Good White People so that I could convince myself that all White people weren't negative.

I am thankful that I came out on the other side of that hate tunnel, since hate poisons and diminishes the person who hates.

I have since found a number of "Good White People" and-Glory Be!- some of them even posts on Mudcat. [smile and seriously].

Like some other people here on Mudcat and elsewhere,
I believe that what people term 'race' and 'ethnicity' should just be considered valueless descriptors.

However, I am realistic enough to know that this is a goal and not a present day reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 07:51 PM

Seems like we scared everyone off, MiziAzizi.... Hmmmmmm? I guess Littel Hawk must be on one of his pilgrimages to the top of the mountain to hang with some of his rock (no, not rock music but real, ahhhh, rocks) friends 'er he'd certainly stop in at this juncture and throw a few peas into the pot...

And I know I didn't *have* to apologize but, hey, it's part of what I can do an' maybe some other white folks might feel a little better about the embaressments of the white race if they did the same... It's kinda like another way of sayin' "Not in my name"...

And another thing it has done is shook the trolls off the thread 'casue it now places their values right there on the slide unner the microscope...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 09:24 PM

bobert, your apology was self-serving and meant nothing. If I was black, which I am not, I would spit in your eye because you reached.

I am not embarrassed by the white race because I personally have enslaved no one and neither have any of my ancestors. But if it helps you move your bowels and your self esteem, I can enjoy you for the joke you are.

BTW, I have never heard the Jews ask the Egyptians for an apology or for anything to make up for 400 years of slavery, inclduing shlepping all of those big bricks to build the pyramids.

And your posts with their poor grammar and spelling are starting to make John from Hull's posts look like he is an English teacher from Harvard.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 11:59 PM

So Martin, if you are wretching about the 400 years of enslavement of Jews by Egyptians, why can't you see that slavery as it exists today is also wrong? Do you just turn a blind eye to the enslavement of others and prefer to think your people are the only ones that are hard done by? Its hard to feel sympathy for those    that has no sympathy for anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:23 PM

Only Two to go El Ted !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Dipthong
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 06:58 PM

It's a good day for the race...

Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Dipthong
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM

...the human race.