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Folklore: Percy Grainger
Related thread:
Percy Grainger: existing recordings? (27)
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:47 AM "Beethoven managed it." Rumour had it that Beethoven was so deaf the thought he was a painter Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:27 AM To say it was cheap as chips would be to wildly overestimate the price of chips. dynamic search link |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Vic Smith Date: 28 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM Derek wrote:- Vic … The Mickey Hart book … I bought a copy in a discount book shop in the UK … no idea when, or where! Derek I did eBay and Amazon searches for this book before I put my previous post up about it and only got hits for sales from the USA - and usually less than half of what I paid for it. However, back in 2003, the £ was so high against the $ that everything that we bought in America all seemed very cheap. 😠 |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Aug 19 - 07:33 AM Imagine trying to me sense of Beethoven's String Quartets from the printed page - I don't think so Beethoven managed it. Blacking describes what Grainger's notation was trying to do in his book. It's less necessary now that recordings can be more permanent, but the effort to describe a performance from the outside as precisely as possible is something future generations will always be grateful for. The modern terminology for Grainger's notations is "etic" - the contrasting "emic" notation that performers might use themselves is more useful to them, but not a lot of help when we no longer have performers who can understand it in the same way as the person who wrote it down. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 28 Aug 19 - 06:47 AM Vic … The Mickey Hart book … I bought a copy in a discount book shop in the UK … no idea when, or where! Derek |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Aug 19 - 02:27 AM Having enough people interested in listening to that sort of thing to avoid such an an important collection doesn't lie abandoned for as long as it has is a better one Steve As far as the 'in print' thing is concerned One of the wisest things aver wrote about the ballads was by Bronson "When is a ballad not a ballad - when it has no tune" He might have addded "when it is not sung" THe pioneers got these things from mouth to paper - now they need tobe put back in singers' mouths if they are to survive Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Aug 19 - 05:02 PM Thanks, Jim Can't argue with the listening point but having a comprehensive list is a good start to the listening process. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Vic Smith Date: 27 Aug 19 - 03:10 PM Mickey Hart, drummer with The Grateful Dead had a fascinating book called Songcatchers: In Search of the World's Music published by National Geographic. I don't think it was ever published in the UK: I bought my copy the year it came out in 2003 in New Orleans. It is a popular book rathet than an academic book; the section on Percy Grainger is particularly interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM Should have said - as with all collections, a full understanding of the songs comes from listening to them - printed versions are merely one-dimensional views of an important art form Imagine trying to me sense of Beethoven's String Quartets from the printed page - I don't think so Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Aug 19 - 02:33 PM Apart from ours, there's a full set of the Grainger Collection a Cecil Sharp House There is also a full set along with his Scandinavian recordings as The National Sound Archive AS far as I remember, Shaughnessy published only some of them Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:55 PM Are all of the recordings published in the O'Shaughnessy books? I have all of those. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Aug 19 - 01:53 PM Is there a comprehensive (or other) listing of Grainger's folk song recordings anywhere? On line? I have a copy of Brigg Fair album. It might have a list in the sleeve notes. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:22 PM The mover and shaker of the 'Unto Brigg Fair' album was Bob (later "Professor Robert") Thomson, who worked with Bill Leader and Dave Bland on the project He approached Ella Grainger for permission and acquired a full set of the field recordings to work from Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Aug 19 - 12:03 PM Thanks for that link, Becky. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,henryp Date: 27 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM Accounts are contradictory, but it appears that Joseph Taylor recorded twelve songs for the Gramophone Company. Ten of these were issued on 31 July 1908 as "English Folk-Songs sung by Genuine Peasant Performers". The Gramophone Company reportedly gave Joseph Taylor a set of the records, as well as a gramophone on which to play them. All ten songs plus two more - Rufford Park Poachers and Gipsy's Wedding - were included on Unto Brigg Fair (1972), together with songs recorded on wax cylinders in Brigg by Percy Grainger. These included two songs by Joseph Taylor, Landlord and Tenant and Bold Nevison. Two of the Gramophone Company songs appeared on Hidden English (1996) and five more on The Voice of the People series (1999). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 26 Aug 19 - 03:36 PM If I remember correctly, the Joseph Taylor recordings on unto Bring Fair were from the commercial recordings, all of which appeared later on voice of the people (with one exception which Malcolm Taylor - no relation! - and I included on A Century of Song CD). The other non-Taylor recordings were from cylinder recordings and the quality of the recordings is not as good. Derek |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,henryp Date: 26 Aug 19 - 11:53 AM From: GUEST,bigJ Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM "At the (English) National Folk Festival on Saturday the 9th April, Brian Dawson gave a talk on Grainger's visit to Brigg with Lucy Broadwood a century ago. During their visit the two of them noted down eight songs from such singers as Joseph Taylor, Dean Robinson and William Hilton, among them Brigg Fair, Creeping Jane, T'oud Yowe Wi One Horn and Come All You Merry Ploughboys. Grainger went back to Brigg later that year." In April 1905 Percy Grainger and Frank Kidson attended the sixth North Lincolnshire Music Festival. A folk-song section offered a prize for the best unpublished old Lincolnshire folk-song or plough-song. The judge, Frank Kidson, awarded the prize for the best song to Joseph Taylor of Saxby All Saints for Creeping Jane. Grainger returned to Brigg in August 1905 to collect more songs. Although the liner notes to the LP Unto Brigg Fair also add Lucy E. Broadwood, her diary says that she wasn't there before 1906 - Reinhard Zierke. At the 1906 Festival, Joseph Taylor was again awarded first prize, but this time he had to share it with George Gouldthorpe of Goxhill. The judge, Miss Lucy Broadwood, felt justified in awarding eight prizes. Mr G. Gouldthorpe sang a ballad entitled Six Dukes. Brigg Fair and a beautiful tune to William Taylor obtained the next prize for Mr Joseph Taylor. The 1907 Festival was cancelled following the death of the mother of Gervase Elwes. It restarted in 1908 but without Elwes family involvement and without a folk-song section. From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM "The LP Unto Brigg Fair vinyl 1972 Leader 4050 mono (Bill Leader) Sleeve notes say that Percy recorded in 1906 and 1908 in Lincolnshire and it is the 1908 recordings which formed the basis of the vinyl record." Grainger knew Broadwood and they became close friends. He began to use the phonograph during nine days' collecting in Lincolnshire in July-August 1906, and bought his own phonograph in 1908. Grainger revisited Lincolnshire in May 1908 to make more phonograph recordings, and in June and July 1908 brought Joseph Taylor to the studio of the Gramophone Company to make commercial disc recordings of his songs. The songs on the LP Unto Brigg Fair come from the cylinders and discs from these 1908 sessions. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Aug 19 - 10:51 AM Hi Vic, That set of Brigg 78s looks as though it ought to be digitised and commercially available. I'll give Rod a nod. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Desert Dancer Date: 25 Aug 19 - 10:05 PM Stumbled into this thread, went to check if Aussie actor Richard Roxburgh was who I thought he was... and it was, and the entire movie, "Passion", is on YouTube (for now): Passion on YouTube "1999 biopic examining the life and career of the Australian-born musician best known as a concert pianist, arranger of folk tunes (e.g. Country Gardens, Brigg Fair) and his often bizarre musical inventions. He is lesser known as a self-flagellant with controversial sexual mores. His mother Rose is played by Barbara Hershey." 1 hr, 38 mins ~ Becky in Ashland(ish) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:13 PM Search link for Jane O'Brien's book: AddALL dynamic link Right now that gets one copy, 25 quid. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Vic Smith Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:05 PM A story from Dave Bland who worked both for the EFDSS and for Bill Leader when he had his recording studio in Cecil Sharp House:- Bill had worked meticulously to improve the quality of the recordings by Joseph Taylor and the other Brigg singers before releasing them on the Unto Brigg Fair LP in 1972. The sound quality of the album still sounded much less than we expect from later recordings. Bill posted a copy to the University of Melbourne where the complete Percy Grainger archives were kept. They sent a letter of thanks but added that it was a pity that Bill hadn't contacted them before starting out on this project as they had a complete unplayed set of the Grainger/Brigg 78s. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Gealt Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM She may be the Jane O'Brien who wrote: The Magic of Tofu and Other Soya Products (Best of Vegetarian Cooking) Harper Collins Australia 1983. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Aug 19 - 11:04 AM She's Australian Reinhard Well done with getting it for a better price Jim |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Reinhard Date: 23 Aug 19 - 10:39 AM I just ordered Jane O'Brien's book on amazon.de for 32€. It will be shipped from the USA so it may take some time to arrive. And there is an Irish singer Jane O'Brien living in Hamburg but I presume she is somebody else than the Grainger book author. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Aug 19 - 09:41 AM " £126.99, " Wow - must be worth a few pints at our music local, Friels Back in the halcyon days of Malcolm Taylor's wonderful Library Lectures at C#House, Malc invited John Bird to lecture on Grainger We couldn't attend, but friends told us of the discomfiture of some regulars to see their shrine to Cecil 'invaded' by gay couples - I hadn't realised Grainger was a gay icon - neither had they apparently We have a not too well recorded copy of the talk if anybody is interested - well worth the effort Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Gordon Jackson Date: 23 Aug 19 - 07:31 AM It's available on Amazon for £126.99, so I'd say you got a bit of a bargain there, Jim! There's also this: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Percy-Grainger-Collection |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:21 AM "PG was worthy of a blue plaque." Totally in agreement with that, unfortunately he fell victim to a folkie hitman, as did others of his time The views expressed then are unfortunately on the rise again, robbing us of the opportunity to make an overall assessment of the work of some of our early pioneers - who had the advantage of wotking with live performers from a living tradition. I have a full set of the English Granger recordings, I believe they are among the most neglected examples of early English singing) A handy little work is Jane O'Brien's music monograph, 'Grainger's English Folk Song Collection' an annotated index of the songs he collected I got outs in a second hand bookshop in Chiswick (for £1) but have never seen a reference to it since - well worth searching for He also recorded in Denmark - I've often wondered what they sound like Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Jack Campin Date: 22 Aug 19 - 05:24 PM This is an interesting book about Grainger's ethnomusicology. Calling it "racist" is a caricature. https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/A_Commonsense_View_of_All_Music.html |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Gealt Date: 22 Aug 19 - 12:21 PM PG was worthy of a blue plaque. http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMPBX8_Percy_Grainger_Kings_Road_London_UK |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: FreddyHeadey Date: 22 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM BBC Radio 4 The Essay Kathryn Tickell on Percy Grainger Secret Admirers April 2018 "Kathryn Tickell celebrates a composer whose music is particularly important to her: the Australian-American folksong fanatic Percy Grainger." https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09z65c9 |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Garry Gillard Date: 22 Jul 08 - 10:57 AM The film was directed by Peter Duncan, is called Passion, and has Richard Roxburgh as PG. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: quokka Date: 21 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM I seem to remember the movie starred an Australian actor (as PG)called Richard Roxburgh, very talented actor Cheers, Quokka |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle Date: 21 Jul 08 - 10:15 AM An incredibly strong and fit man. One of his party tricks was to open the front and back doors of his house, then stand outside the front with a cricket ball, which he would throw clean over the roof, run through the house, out of the back door and catch the ball before it bounced. When travelling with an orchestra by coach he frequently got out and ran to the place they were going to. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: semi-submersible Date: 21 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM My mother remembered her (English) father commenting on a pretty tune she had just learned at school (in British Columbia, Canada). When she told him it was "An English Country Garden, by Percy Grainger," her father hit the roof, and informed her emphatically that it had been around long before Percy Grainger. I wish I had a penny for every time this gifted arranger has been taken for composer! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Rowan Date: 21 Jul 08 - 01:46 AM The Percy Grainger Museum is in Melbourne, on Royal Parade, next to the Melbourne Uni tram stop. It is on Melbourne Uni land (next to the Conservatorium) and looks (from the outside) like a St Kilda Beach dunny but the contents are fascinating. Grainger invented terry-towel clothing (he was a bit of a health freak) and a precursor to the Moog synthesiser (in 1926 or so) which used mechanical contrivances to vary various electrical components so that sounds could be produced with continuous (rather than discrete) changes. In addition to the concer mentioned by Bob there's a couple of duet concertinas and four or five pianos; one is tuned in sixths! Well worth a visit. There was talk a couple of years ago about dismantling it but the terms of the bequest (by which it landed at Melbourne Uni) and action by various music heavies stymied that notion at the time. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Fullerton Date: 01 May 05 - 06:03 AM I have sung in choirs that performed some of Grainger' choral works. I found his plain speaking musical instructions such as "get louder" etc, a delight and very practical. Instead of the usual "arranged by" - he is credited on some editions as having "dished up" the tune. I can almost hear the ozzy accent Shame that the video is not available. I'm gonna order the book at the library. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:39 PM |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM HMMMMMMM!!!!!
http://www.blickfire.com??????
WHY the MC interface before MC accepts a thread......????????
My "Spider Senses" are tingling.....could MAX have sold-out Joe and Dick?
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: cobber Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:01 PM Most people, particularly in Australia and New Zealand at the time held the current view of the racial superiority of the English race and Grainger would have been unusual if he didn't share what we now call racist views. I remember a few years ago putting two stories together (2+2+5?). I had read in several accounts the story of the swagman who comes in to the outback hotel and offers to play the piano in exchange for a beer. When given the chance he would play the most beautiful classical pieces on the broken down bar piano then drink his beer and disappear back to the bush. Damned if I can remember where these stories came from but I know I read them more than once. Then a few years ago, I read of how Grainger decided to walk between concerts in Adelaide and Sydney. For US readers that's like walking from New York to Texas and or UK catters, forget it, if you start in London, you're probably past Jerusalem. Apparently for these walks, he dressed as a swagman (US hobo) and could be out of circulation for months. Like they said, a strange man, but what music! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Apr 05 - 03:08 PM One of these posts 7:54 AM 27 April 2005, says Grainger was a racist and "went on at length about the importance of "blue-eyed music". Another post (27 Apr 2005 4:53 PM says he collected music from the Pacific Islanders and the Maori. Isn't there a contradiction here? Could somebody have respect for a black culture such that he wanted to collect its songs, and still be a racist? Or did he collect them, while still considering them all inferior to the most pedestrian Western music? Perhaps this topic is explored in one of the books about him. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 29 Apr 05 - 06:28 PM Hy Sooz hows Gainsborough going? Brian has some wonderful stories about singing to his accordion in all the little Lincolnshire villages' Community Halls ~ in fact taking back the songs in his Lincolnshire collection to the people He is a mine of information on traditional Lincolnshire song |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Sooz Date: 29 Apr 05 - 12:27 PM I had a plan to get a lottery grant to record Brian Dawson's encyclopaedic knowledge for posterity. Unfortunately it was turned down. Haven't given up yet though! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 29 Apr 05 - 11:48 AM The LP Unto Brigg Fair vinyl 1972 Leader 4050 mono (Bill Leader) Sleeve notes say that Percy recorded in 1906 and 1908 in Lincolnshire and it is the 1908 recordings which formed the basis of the vinyl record. Joseph Taylor had among 21 tacks listed by the recorded singers (6): Sprig of Thyme; Died for love; Brigg Fair; The White Hare; Lord Bateman; Rufford Park Poachers; Gypsy's Wedding Day; Worcester City; Creeping Jane; Murder of Maria Martin; Bold William Taylor; Bold Nevison Many of these songs have now re-entered into the repertoire of English Traditional singers. I for one am delighted that these songs have been given a now lease of life. I would also mention that collecting continues in Lincolnshire through the likes of Brian Dawson |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM Here is a link to information about the 1968 TV movie Song of Summer. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,padgett (at home) Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:35 PM As far as performance of Folk Song is concerned I think it is now more important to actually perform the song in the way which comes most naturally to the singer. Unaccompanied song performance permits the singer to move from the straight jacket of musical phrasing (or vary notes within the framework)and use spoken word phrasing also for greater effect and dramatic emphasis. Elongating or shortening words using stops, and other interjections would make the notation of a song somewhat difficult and necessitate the early collector in collecting not only the first verse/chorus but every verse. Each verse would be an art form in itself communicating and conveying feelings. Verses and performance would also change virtually evertime sung depending upon amount of beer drunk and feelings and state of mind of the performer when being collected! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: greg stephens Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM As a side issue, there is a lovely portrayal of Grainger in Ken Russell's TV programme about Delius, IMHO the best TV programme I've ever seen. Max Adrian played DFelius, but I cant remember the name of the actor who played Grainger. The programme(I think) was called "Song of Summer". Grainger was years ahead of his fellow collectors in saying that conventional musical notation and writing down the words told you only the most superficial things about the performance of folk music. He spent a long time trying to solve this problem...as we all should! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: dick greenhaus Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM Roberts (aka Anglo) and Tony Barrand have a very nice CD called Heartoutbursts, consisting of songs collected by Percy Grainger. Good songs, good singing, good listening. Yes, CAMSCO carries it. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Geoff Date: 28 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM The book mentioned earlier (Written by John Bird) was published in England in 1976 by Faber and Faber the following is the ISBN Number ISBN 0-571-11717-1. It's a good read if you can find a copy. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Bob Bolton Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:23 PM G'day RangerSteve, The Grainger Museum is actually in Melbourne ... where I understand Percy lived at some point. The Museum has some quite interesting instruments, which are in playing condition - and are sometimes let out to play! There is a very high quality, extended-range, Wheatstone English concertina - made especially to order and, for which, Percy wrote a fiendishly complex tone-poem in six parallel parts. This had no known performance - until Janice Ramshaw (American-born wife of equally concertina-obsessed John Ramshaw) performed it at the Museum about 15 years back. Just recently I heard a broadcast of violin work played by Jenny Morris - an up and coming young Australian - in which she played a Hardanger Fiddle (Hardangfel) - a Norwegian fiddle with 4 extra "sympathetic" strings from the Grainger collection. I don't know if the pieces Jenny played drew on work written by Percy for Hardanger Fiddle. (I spoke to Jenny at our National Folk Festival - and she thought this was the only Hardanger Fiddle in Australia ... but I know of at least two Australian contemporary makers that have made examples - maybe we can persuade one of them to give her a long-term loan of an instrument!) Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM All of this, of course, is what makes Mudcat so very interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: dick greenhaus Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:34 PM Believe it or not, Joseph Taylor's singing of Briggs Fair is available on CD. Not too listenable (recording techniques weren't too good in 1906), but IMO very interesting historically. At CAMSCO, of course. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: open mike Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:44 PM COUNTRY GARDENS British Folk-Music Settings No. 22 English Morris Dance Tune, collected by Cecil J. Sharp Grainger: "Rough-sketched for 2 whistlers and a few instruments about 1908. Worked out for piano, spring, 1918. Birthday gift, mother, July 3, 1918. "Groups of countryside dancers--'teams' of 'Morris Men'--decked out with ribbons and jingling bells, still dance the Morris Dance to the accompaniment of such tunes as Shepherd's Hey and Country Gardens, in some parts of rural England. We owe our knowledge of such things to that genius among folk-music collectors, Cecil J. Sharp, and those interested in the subject should consult Morris Dance Tunes and The Morris Dance Book, both by Cecil J. Sharp and Herbert C. Macil waine and both published by Novello & Co., Ltd. "The traditional tune, as collected by Cecil J. Sharp, is [given as Mus. Exam. 3, below]." Version for piano solo "[This] English Morris-dance tune... became Grainger's curse, but equally, let it be admitted, posterity's delight."--Leslie Howard (Piano 1). "Of Country Gardens Grainger once wrote: 'The typical English country garden is not often used to grow flowers in; it is more likely to be a vegetable plot. So you can think of turnips as I play it.'"--John Bird [Adni]. "In an NBC broadcast of 1936, Grainger said of his Country Gardens, 'I arranged this Morris Dance originally to be whistled by two whistlers with a few instruments accompanying them. That was in 1908. In 1918 when I was in the Band of the 15th Coast Artillery Corps I used to improvise on Country Gardens at Liberty Loan concerts. Finally in 1919 I had it published for the piano and you have been afflicted with it ever since.' All that one can add here is that Cecil Sharp first gave Grainger the tune but lived to regret it and whilst the piece's phenomenal popularity earned the Australian (and his publishers) a small fortune it also obscured most of his other compositions. It must also be one of the few works composed by a dedicated pacifist in an army barracks."--John Bird (Rambles). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: open mike Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:39 PM I think the first time i recall seeing his name was on the sheet music of "An English Country Garden" a folk tune. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: RangerSteve Date: 27 Apr 05 - 06:16 PM There's a book called "The Mammoth Book of Oddballs and Eccentrics" that says he was into flagellation and referred to his whipping scars as his "blue roses". He also established a Percy Grainger museum in Australia (Sydney, I think), and his last wish was to have his skeleton included in the exhibits. The museum trustees ignored this request. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,surreysinger Date: 27 Apr 05 - 05:15 PM Percy Grainger acknowledged his indebtedness to Lucy Broadwood for his first introduction to English folksong and folksong collecting in a letter to her from White Plains, USA, dated 2 November 1925... "Your work for folksong was always a source of the keenest delight to both my darling mother and myself. I don't know any woman my mother admired more than you....." He first met her at a talk that she gave on folksong collecting to the British Musical Association in March 1905 which fired him up to actively go out and start collecting himself. "Thru the beautiful spirit of that lecture I was led into paths that have meant so much to me and to my life's work, and the popularising of English folksongI have been able to do in US and the European continent etc, all had it's roots in that lecture of yrs, and the fragrance of country melody that it radiated". The lecture sparked off a friendship that was to last until her death in 1929. As already indicated he collected for the first time in 1905, the year of the lecture, and in 1906, Lucy (who was one of the judge's at the Brigg Folksong Competition) and he collected together. Lucy was actually instrumental in her capacity as Secretary of the Folk Song Society in providing him with a phonograph, and he was a pioneer in actually recording rather than annotating songs by hand. He was responsible for making the recordings of Joseph Taylor in 1906 which became the first commercially issued recording of English folksong from a source singer. Vaughan Williams who was collecting from December 1903 to 1913,(and therefore at the same time as Grainger) was also introduced to folksongs and collecting by Lucy Broadwood (and also according to a letter he wrote to her in 1924 to Bach and Purcell). He was a family friend (living in Leith Hill near Dorking, while her family home was in Rusper on the Surrey/Sussex border nearby), and together with her and two others founded the Leith Hill Music Festival which has just taken place again in Dorking in the last month. Like Grainger he remained a friend of hers until she died. Whether the two composers met at one of the musical soirees and other parties that she held or attended I am unaware - her diaries record the names of various visitors to her home in London, or in Rusper, and both figure frequently therein (as do Holst, Butterworth and other classical music luminaries). It doesn't seem too fanciful to think it might have occurred! As to Grainger's proclivities and peculiarities, well, they've been quite well documented as other contributors to this thread have indicated. Incidentally he not only collected English songs, but Danish amongst others. (I think his partner of later years may have been Danish - must admit that I'm not a specialist in his area... I'm more interested in Lucy!) Sorry about the length of this - hope it's of interest. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Uke Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:53 PM That movie is called "Passion" and it has Barbara Hershey in it (as Grainger's mother). Can't remeber who played Grainger. About his recordings, apparently he felt that ordinary transcriptions of folk songs left so much out, and produced a false impression, when singers had all sorts of interesting, but hard to transcribe, effects in their singing. He called it "the impress of personality". I also have read that he collected music from the Pacific Islands and New Zealand Maori, which he was fascinated by. Uke |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM There is a movie about Grainger - a Hollywood style biopic. I saw it - the dvd - remaindered somewhere but for some reason didn't buy it. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:27 PM I should have added that I used to play some of his pieces on that box with strings and hammers. He was a tough-minded fellow, it seems from his music. His arrangements are beautiful but difficult. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Apr 05 - 04:24 PM There are bound to be a lot of redundancies here, but I went into the biographical database at the university and came up with a number of locations with citations. Some had only one or two, a couple of them had 25 or more. They're comingled here, and you can cross out the duplications. SRS George Percy Aldridge Grainger Citations: Grainger, (George) Percy (Aldridge) (1882-1961) (5)
Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians. Ninth edition. Edited by Laura Kuhn. New York: Schirmer Books, 2001. [BakBD 9] Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Twentieth-Century Classical Musicians. By Nicolas Slonimsky. New York: Schirmer Books, 1997. [BakBDTw] Baker's Dictionary of Music. By Nicolas Slonimsky. New York: Schirmer Books, 1997. [BakDcM] The Oxford Companion to Music. 2002 edition. Edited by Alison Latham. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2002. [OxCMus 2002] Grainger, (George) Percy Aldridge (1882-1961) (2)
The Penguin International Dictionary of Contemporary Biography from 1900 to the Present. Second edition. By Edward Vernoff and Rima Shore. New York: Viking Penguin, 2001. First edition published by New American Library as The International Dictionary of 20th Century Biography. [PenIntDc] Grainger, George Percy (1882-) (1)
Grainger, George Percy (1882-1961) (1)
Grainger, Percy (1882-1961) (25)
Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 14: September, 1984-August, 1986. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1986. [BioIn 14] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 15: September, 1986-August, 1988. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1988. [BioIn 15] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 16: September, 1988-August, 1990. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1990. [BioIn 16] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 18: September, 1992-August, 1993. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1993. [BioIn 18] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 20: September, 1994-August, 1995. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1995. [BioIn 20] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 21: September, 1995-August, 1996. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1996. [BioIn 21] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 26: September, 2000-August, 2001. New York: H. W. Wilson Co., 2001. [BioIn 26] Britannica Book of Music. Edited by Benjamin Hadley. Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co., 1980. [BriBkM] Composers since 1900. First edition. Compiled and edited by David Ewen. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1969. [CompSN] Biography contains portrait. Composers since 1900. A biographical and critical guide. First Supplement. Compiled and edited by David Ewen. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1981. [CompSN SUP] Biography contains portrait. The Dictionary of Composers and Their Music. Every listener's companion. By Eric Gilder and June G. Port. New York: Ballantine Books, 1979. Entires are found in Part One. [DcCom&M] Biography contains portrait. Dictionary of Contemporary Music. Edited by John Vinton. New York: Dutton, 1974. This book ignores prefixes in filing surnames. [DcCM] Biography contains portrait. The Heritage Encyclopedia of Band Music. Composers and their music. Two volumes. By William H. Rehrig. Westerville, OH: Integrity Press, 1991. [HeriEBM] Music Makers. By Clive Unger-Hamilton. New York: Harry N. Abrams, 1979. Use the 'Alphabetical List of Entries' at the front of the book to locate biographies. [MusMk] Biography contains portrait. The New American Dictionary of Music. By Philip D. Morehead with Anne MacNeil. New York: Dutton, 1991. [NewAmDM] Biography contains portrait. The New Grove Dictionary of American Music. Four volumes. Edited by H. Wiley Hitchcock and Stanley Sadie. London: Macmillan Press, 1986. [NewGrDA] Biography contains portrait. The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. 20 volumes. Edited by Stanley Sadie. London: Macmillan Publishers, 1980. [NewGrDM] Biography contains portrait. The New Oxford Companion to Music. Two volumes. Edited by Denis Arnold. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1983. [NewOxM] Biography contains portrait. The New York Times Biographical Service. A compilation of current biographical information of general interest. Volume 13, Numbers 1-12. Sanford, NC: Microfilming Corp. of America, 1982. Use the annual Index to locate biographies. [NewYTBS 13] Biography contains portrait. Obituaries from the Times. 1961-1970. Compiled by Frank C. Roberts. Reading, England: Newspaper Archive Developments, 1975. [ObitT 1961] Biography contains portrait. The Oxford Companion to English Literature. Fifth edition. Edited by Margaret Drabble. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1985. [OxCEng 5] Biography contains portrait. The Oxford Companion to English Literature. Revised fifth edition. Edited by Margaret Drabble. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 1995. [OxCEng 5R] The Oxford Companion to English Literature. Sixth edition. Edited by Margaret Drabble. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press, 2000. [OxCEng 6] Who Was Who in America. A component volume of Who's Who in American History. Volume 4, 1961-1968. Chicago: Marquis Who's Who, 1968. [WhAm 4] Biography contains portrait. Grainger, Percy (1882-1961) (1)
Grainger, Percy (d1961) (1)
Grainger, Percy (1)
Grainger, Percy Aldridge (1882-1961) (28)
American National Biography. 24 volumes. Edited by John A. Garraty and Mark C. Carnes. New York: Oxford University Press, 1999. [AmNatBi] The ASCAP Biographical Dictionary. Third edition. New York: American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers, 1966. [ASCAP 3] Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians. Sixth edition. Revised by Nicolas Slonimsky. London: Collier Macmillan Publishers, . [BakBD 6] Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians. Seventh edition. Revised by Nicolas Slonimsky. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Schirmer Books, 1984. [BakBD 7] Biographical Dictionary of American Music. By Charles Eugene Claghorn. West Nyack, NY: Parker Publishing Co., 1973. [BiDAmM] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 1: January, 1946-July, 1949. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1949. [BioIn 1] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 2: August, 1949-August, 1952. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1953. [BioIn 2] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 4: September, 1955-August, 1958. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1960. [BioIn 4] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 5: September, 1958-August, 1961. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1962. [BioIn 5] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 6: September, 1961-August, 1964. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1965. [BioIn 6] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 7: September, 1964-August, 1967. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1968. [BioIn 7] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 8: September, 1967-August, 1970. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1971. [BioIn 8] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 10: September, 1973-August, 1976. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1977. [BioIn 10] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 11: September, 1976-August, 1979. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1980. [BioIn 11] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 12: September, 1979-August, 1982. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1983. [BioIn 12] Biography Index. A cumulative index to biographical material in books and magazines. Volume 13: September, 1982-August, 1984. New York: H.W. Wilson Co., 1984. [BioIn 13] The Cambridge Biographical Encyclopedia. Second edition. Edited by David Crystal. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1998. [CamBiEn] The Cambridge Dictionary of American Biography. Edited by John S. Bowman. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1995. [CamDcAB] Contemporary American Composers. A biographical dictionary. First edition. Compiled by E. Ruth Anderson. Boston: G.K. Hall & Co., 1976. [ConAmC 1] Contemporary American Composers. A biographical dictionary. Second edition. Compiled by E. Ruth Anderson. Boston: G.K. Hall & Co., 1982. [ConAmC 2] Dictionary of the Arts. New York: Facts on File, 1994. [DcArts] The Lincoln Library of Social Studies. Eighth edition. Three volumes. Columbus, OH: Frontier Press Co., 1978. Biographies begin on page 865 of Volume 3. [LinLib S] Notable Names in the American Theatre. Clifton, NJ: James T. White & Co., 1976. Earlier edition published as The Biographical Encyclopaedia and Who's Who of the American Theatre. 'Necrology' section begins on page 343. This book often alphabetizes by titles of address, e.g.: Dr., Mrs., and Sir. [NotNAT B] Notable Twentieth-Century Pianists. A bio-critical sourcebook. Two volumes. By John Gillespie and Anna Gillespie. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 1995. [NotTwCP] The Oxford Companion to American Literature. Fourth edition. By James D. Hart. New York: Oxford University Press, 1965. [OxCAmL 4] The Oxford Companion to Music. 1974 edition. By Percy A. Scholes. Edited by John Owen Ward.[OxCMus 1974] Who Did What. The lives and achievements of the 5,000 men and women -- leaders of nations, saints and sinners, artists and scientists -- who shaped our world. Edited by Gerald Howat. New York: Crown Publishers, 1974. [WhDW] |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,bigJ Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM At the (English) National Folk Festival on Saturday the 9th April, Brian Dawson gave a talk on Grainger's visit to Brigg with Lucy Broadwood a century ago. During their visit the two of them noted down eight songs from such singers as Joseph Taylor, Dean Robinson and William Hilton, among them Brigg Fair, Creeping Jane, T'oud Yowe Wi One Horn and Come All You Merry Ploughboys. Grainger went back to Brigg later that year. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Tradsinger Date: 27 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM The book "The Farthest North of Humanness" published by Macmillian in 1985 is a collection of Grainger's letters 1901-1914. In his letters to his lover Karen Holten, he is explicit about his interest in S & M, with diagrams. The relationship with his mother, Rose, was very close but there is no proof that it was incestuous. Grainger's biography was written by Bird (can't think of his other name). He also collected a lot of songs in Gloucestershire and Worcestershire, apart from his well-known Lincolnshire work. Gwilym |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Liz the Squeak Date: 27 Apr 05 - 09:50 AM Gorsh.... all I did was put his name in MS search...! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,Henry Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:48 AM Grainger attended the North Lincolnshire Musical Competition Festival in April 1905, a hundred years ago. His collecting then included two verses of Brigg Fair from Joseph Taylor. He returned to Brigg in August 1905 and collected more songs. Grainger began his recording with a borrowed Edison cylinder phonograph which he took to the 1906 festival. His fiancee, expecting a low key wedding, was surprised when the ceremony took place on the stage of the Hollywood Bowl in front of an audience of 20,000. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: GUEST,padgett Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:37 AM Yes Liz an excellent LINK to book blurb outlining his personality and predelictions!! above |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 27 Apr 05 - 08:00 AM Great link, Liz, thanks. This isn't actually the book I was referring to, which is probably about 10+ years earlier and (I think) was written by a woman. So there are at least two intelligent books about PG, if not more. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:54 AM I read a good biog of him a few years back (can't remember the author but ABE Books or somewhere could probably turn it up if it's not still in print) which explores some of the darker areas of his life without getting lurid or cheap about it. Apparently the love of being whipped stems from his mother punishing him in childhood in this manner, and his response to it somehow became conflated with desire. Writing from memory, but it had to do with Mama, surprise surprise. He was also a racist, and went on at great length about the importance of (as he put it) "blue-eyed music". On the positive side, his piano solos are well worth investigating. My favourite is an unjustly-neglected setting of one of the Irish reels collected by Stanford (name escapes me, minor key - not Molly On The Shore, which is pretty well known). It would make a great recital piece because it's quite dramatic, fairly difficult, and not too long. I have a recording somewhere of pieces played from piano rolls which he had made himself, and fell in love with it. He didn't like calling the instrument a piano, however, and renamed it something like hammer-box-string. You're right, a fascinating character. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:49 AM Thanks Liz--sounds like a great book. I'll check it out. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Liz the Squeak Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:42 AM This link mentions the foibles you refer to in a book review. It sounds like it might be an interesting book to get hold of. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:34 AM Was he collecting at the same time as Vaughn Williams? Any stories about interaction between them? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: padgett Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:29 AM Yep I have come across Percy's foibles and S& M links apparently via his mother making him play piano. Also stories of his great leg power from travelling through Lincolnshire on his bicycle and being able to jump up and down flights of stairs. Vicky Clayton, pro Lincolnshire folkie is I believe quite an authority on Percy Grainger I believe Unto Brigg Fair vinyl was largely down to Percy's recording made in 1908 on wax cylinder and clearly his collecting influenced his later compositions |
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Subject: Folklore: Percy Grainger From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM Unexpectedly fascinating character. My choral group, with the US Marine Band, is going to do a concert of some of his music this Sunday. I'm hearing and reading some amazing stories about him. One of the pieces we're doing is called "Marching Song of Democracy". On the first page it says he dedicated it to his mother (for 3 birthdays and a Christmas). Now I read he may well have had an incestuous relationship with his mother. Is there likely any truth at all to this outlandish idea?--evidently some weird letters--that's all I've run across. Also probably into S and M--what about this--again, any evidence? He rejected the Italian designations of musical instruction--and invented some of his own words to substitute like "louden" (as in "louden lots" instead of " molto crescendo") and gives instructions in the music like "Don't tire yourselves over this; keep fresh for what's to come". The "Marching Song" has no words---ta ra da di da da etc. all the way through. We're doing his choral arrangment of Londonderry Air-again no words (written 9 years before Fred Weatherly put the Danny Boy words to it). Grainger's setting is just wonderful--rich, sumptous, and emotional. Also a strange arrangement of "Shallow Brown"--unlike any sea chantey I can imagine--doesn't even keep a steady beat--keeps varying between 3/4 and 4/4--would drive any sailor crazy, I'd bet. But it's seems a dreamlike approach to it--and it seems, on those terms, to work. And a pretty good arrangement of 17 Come Sunday--but it seems strange in a folk song to be asked to pronounce each word carefully (though the instruction on "one May morning so early" is "so wurly") As I said, great stories about him. Seems to have been a real hard-core collector of English folk song. Director of the Marine Band related one story: Grainger, wanting some songs a woman had but was unwilling to sing for him, persuaded her granddaughter to let him hide under the bed while the granddaughter convinced her grandmother to sing the songs. While she did, Grainger wrote them down. How's that for a switch on the songs about the robber under the old woman's bed? He also was an international concert pianist--but didn't like that life--felt like a trained monkey (a la Mozart). Anybody had occasion to sing any of his arrangements or have information on the truth of any of these stories (or have others? |
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