Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU

Subject: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM

Just watched a show on ABC-TV here in Oz, called "Sir! No Sir", documenting the widespread resistance to the Vietnam war from WITHIN the American Armed Forces - I had NO idea it was so HUGE!

Q. Could it possibly happen today????????
Or is there very good reason why Heavy Metal music is permitted to be played by today's combat troops ...


Anyway, a VERY interesting programme (shame it was only broadcast at 9.30pm on a Thursday night ...)

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:04 AM

The movie made in support of the John Kerry campaign, called "Going Up River" or similar, also has a lot of footage from those days of veterans marching at the D.C. Mall and throwing their medals at the White House. Very stirring stuff indeed. It reveals a humanity that has been tellingly absent in the current Administration and its puppet-head both before and since that campaign.





A

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: NH Dave
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 10:14 AM

As a retired AF senior NCO, I would have to guess that Heavy Metal music is allowed our troops because it would be unconstitutional to deny them the music that they want to hear, and also because it is tough telling a serving person who you have sent out to fight for God and Country that s/he can't listen to any music that s/he wants to hear.

Of course that could also be phrased, "Do you want to tell a suited up infantry troop with a weapon capable of firing bullets more than a mile in any direction that s/he can't listen to whatever music s/he wants"? We're dealing with 21st century troops here, so we have to allow them some freedon of choice.

Dave

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 06:15 PM

Did someone imply that any type of pop or rock music was banned in Vietnam? I don't think that was ever the case; I wasn't "in-country" myself, but I never heard of any such controversy, and films like "Apocalypse Now," "Platoon," "Good Morning Vietnam," etc. ~ albeit fictional ~ depict the playing of records by Jimi Hendrix, the Doors, etc. etc. There are also plenty of contemporary pop-music references in Vietnam literature like Tim O'Brien's novels (e.g.., Sam the Sham's "Little Red Riding Hood").

If the blatantly anti-establishment lyrics of Vietnam-era pop music were OK to be heard back then by American soldiers, the apolitical and generally violent heavy-metal "entertainment" of today would undoubtedly be more than welcome in today's combat zones.

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 07:40 PM

Guess I was referring to the "recent" doco of soldiers getting hyped up to go into battle (i.e. kill the Govt's purported enemies) via the violence of heavy metal music - and how USEFUL that must be to top brass ... coz it doesn't allow much room to THINK about your actions, or your commander's actions, or your Govt's actions.

So, does anyone think there COULD be a similar resistance today in the armed forces, especially after all the flow-ons from 9-11 (and consequent tightening of civil liberties)?????

Just curious ...



Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: dwditty
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:44 PM

There was so much "anti" movement during Vietnam...very organized resistance and opposition to that war. While many might not agree with what is going on today - yes it is still a war as far as I am concerned - there sure does not seem to be much rallying around the cause, as it were.

As far as music in-country, I spent virtually all of 1969 in Vietnam. We got tapes from home with plenty of music. Our news source, however, was the Stars & Stripes, and I did not learn of Woodstock until after I returned to the states in December 1969.

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: NH Dave
Date: 28 Apr 05 - 11:56 PM

The whole point of Adrian Cronaur's book, "Good Morning VIet Nam", and the movie subsequently made from it, was giving the GIs in the field the music they wanted to hear, in spite of what the brass thought they needed. Few of the folks out where the rubber met the road were impressed by classical or even easy listening music, so Chronaur played the music and did the ad libs thay they enjoyed.

Dave

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:17 AM

So I'm STILL wondering - what would be the chances of THAT level (as documented in the film "Sir! No Sir!") of resistance TODAY from within the American Armed Forces???

Considering, as I said, the aftermath of 9-11 and the subsequent removal of many civil liberties ...

OR is there just a basic difference in the composition of the actual Forces personnel - because of there not being a drafting/conscription from the general public anymore???

OK, so the 60s are long gone, I guess ...





Cheers! R-J from Down Under

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: Haruo
Date: 02 May 05 - 02:38 AM

I'm not sure the armed forces have any "civil liberties" to begin with. Question is more about the level, sophistication, and attentiveness of surveillance, isn't it?

Haruo

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 04 May 05 - 06:43 AM

would this have any more chance of being discussed if it was BELOW the line, I wonder??!! (or am I just crap at picking thread names!)




Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:41 AM

RJ, there are a few rabid folks who feed on threads like this, and they lurk below the line.

I was in-country in Vietnam, in 1971-1972, and I honestly never saw a single example of anti-war activity or active/passive resistance to orders. There were no restrictions on music that I ever saw or heard of, and songs like Universal Soldier were often heard on AFVN (Armed Forces Vietnam) radio.

I'm not sure what you are hearing, and from whom, but there really has been no "removal of many civil liberties" post-9/11. What there has been is the passage of several laws (called, as a group, the "Patriot Act) that potentially restrict civil liberties. Some of these, like increased serveilance of air travel, have brought us up to (down to?) the level that many other nations have had for a long time. Most others have never been implemented, but we object to them on principle.

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 May 05 - 12:39 PM

The "civil liberties" stuff you talk about is pure sh*t - but being you live in another, I guess you couldn't see the truth first hand.

The professional military men and women we have today are very seriously behind the efforts in the war zones of the Middle East. They purposely, consciously and deliberately joined a military sworn to fight the battles their country sent them to. If there are some who would not have chosen this war, (and there are a very few) they believe it is still their honorable duty to fight it as well as they can. You have to understand that most very seriously believe in and support this war effort. So a resistance from within, while possible - is extremely unlikely. I regularly play for Military folks - three or four shows each month are for Military audiences. They are very proud of the progress they've made in Iraq, and surprised and often angry about the talk of "quagmire" in the press - that they hear when they come home. I have heard this from many many soldiers over the last year. I have not heard one say they do not support the war.

As for the anti-war feellings among the military during Vietnam ... what you descibe is certainly exaggerated. I did not support that war, in that time - but I know many of my friends who served and did support it, during their time there ... some stopped supporting after they got home. Some became angry over Americans turning against the war.

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: JedMarum
Date: 04 May 05 - 12:40 PM

Not that this isn't a valuable discussion - but this is clearly a BS thread and should be placed appropriately.

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 May 05 - 03:45 PM

I believe the removal of protesters to "Free" Speech Zones is a violation of Civil Liberties. For one thing.

clint

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 05 May 05 - 05:19 AM

Sorry if my questions have caused upset, but it WAS a genuine query from someone in a country that is a long way distant from the U.S.A.

And from the documentary I saw ("Sir! No Sir!" : I don't know who made it ...), and from the ex-armed forces personnel interviewed within that film, the anti-Vietnam War movement WITHIN the U.S. Armed Forces SEEMED to have been huge (and this was previously unknown to me).

So, as Jed has assured me that today's troops are PRO the current war effort, I was interested to know if much of that difference between then and now, has something to do with those CHOOSING to join up (as now) and those being MOSTLY CONSCRIPTED to fight (as then) ...

... it's also hard if no-one else has seen the SAME film, I guess ... sigh ...



So, I'll just get back in me little Aussie Box and shuddup then!
Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 05 May 05 - 06:08 AM

It may be useful to include the synopsis of the doco from the ABC-TV website here in Oz :


" Sir! No Sir
9:30pm Thursday, April 28, 2005

Sir! No Sir is the story of how American GI's, in their thousands, created a widespread, unprecedented movement against the war in Vietnam.

With April 30th 2005 marking the 30th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, Sir! No Sir provocatively links that historic moment to today's world.

Through demonstrations, underground newspapers, combat refusals and more, American GI's altered the course of the Vietnam War and rocked the foundations of the American military.

By 1971, resistance had grown to a level of mass defiance that rendered the majority of ground troops "unreliable" in the eyes of their government.

A Pentagon study that year determined more than half of all troops in the military opposed the war.

Yet today, the memory of the GI movement has been buried.

Along with gripping, exclusive interviews with key participants in the movement, Sir! No Sir unearths a wealth of visual material including never-before-seen film footage from personal archives, to tell a startling story.

With hundreds of thousands of American soldiers again spread across the globe and signs of opposition emerging among troops Sir! No Sir resurrects the suppressed memory of the GI movement. "



Interesting about that supposed Pentagon study ...
Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 06 May 05 - 04:25 AM

I've just had a reply from the ABC here in Oz and the film is by David Zeiger and came from "Displaced Films" website.

Much more on this film and its important historical content, can be found at :

http://www.sirnosir.com/

It's worth a look ...




Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: Vietnam war demos by soldiers DOCU
From: rich-joy
Date: 10 May 05 - 01:34 AM

I should've said too, that many of my "pure sh*t" ideas (as Jed suggests they are), regarding Civil Liberties restrictions in the U.S., come from Internet sites (well, they're AT LEAST as potentially believable as the Mainstream Media, after all - so why not??!!)
AND from e-zines found at sites like :

Bob Webster's Junkmail : usually found at [e-mail], but in about a week you'll have to go to http://xpda.com/babelfish to find me. This week's e-zine can be found here : http://xpda.com/junkmail/junk171/junk171.htm




BTW, has anyone had a look at David Zeiger's http://www.sirnosir.com/ yet??????


Cheers! R-J