Lyr Req: Edward

Subject: Lyric Request: Edward
From: J. Robinson
Date: 29 Oct 96 - 04:05 PM

This is on of those "high risk" incest ballads in origin and may be somehow related to Lizzie Wan (don't quote me). Nic Jones recorded a version of it on one of his early albums, and it also appears it the original folk song collection of Francis J. Child so it would be worth including in this collection (which is very nice unlike my wacky typing)!

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Oct 96 - 09:06 PM

Are you sure we don't have it? Try searching on "Edward"

What's the Child number?

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Alex
Date: 29 Oct 96 - 11:44 PM

DT doesn't have the Child version. Do you want it?

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 96 - 10:05 PM

Oh yes. Most definitely.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Susan of DT
Date: 03 Nov 96 - 12:01 PM

There are a number of incest ballads in child and in the DT, but I am not aware one with Edward as a character. Which Child number? Try @incest in the DT. In addition to Lizzie Wan, try Bonnie Hind, king'a Daughter Jean.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Alex
Date: 03 Nov 96 - 11:28 PM

Edward is not about incest - it's about Fratricide. The tragedy is because the murder was incited by Edward's mother.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Susan of DT
Date: 04 Nov 96 - 07:06 PM

Child #13. Yes we have it. It is called Edward Ballad in its long form. There is also the more standard #13 Edward with "How comes the blood..."

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Alex
Date: 12 Nov 96 - 11:17 PM

Susan, I looked at the Edward Ballad (couldn't find it under your "Edward Ballad in the long form") - it's still not the one I know. I got 2 & a half pages searching on Edward! By the way, what happened to the DT index - will it be coming back anytime soon.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Nov 96 - 09:33 PM

If you mean the title search, we're working on it. dick

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Susan of DT
Date: 14 Nov 96 - 05:54 AM

search on #13. They are both there. I just tried it from on line. If you have a different version, we would love it

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Alex
Date: 17 Nov 96 - 12:34 AM

Susan, A search on '#13' doesn't return anything. The question begs - why would I be searching for #13 when what I wanted was 'Edward' - it assumes knowledge I don't necessarily have. Is there a problem with the search facility? Same problem with Barrats Privateers - it returns on 'Privateer' but not on 'Barrat'.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Nov 96 - 02:35 PM

"Edward" gets you lots of hits. The child ballad was the 4th and 5th hit when I put in "Edward". When you know the child#, it will (1) limit the hits to the ballad and (2) get you versions of the ballad that do not include the word you searched on. #13 worked for me. Spelling is a problem in searches, so look for a phrase when the work or name did not come up We have BARRETT'S Privateers.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Alex
Date: 19 Nov 96 - 10:53 PM

I see now what you were getting at with Edward and the Edward Ballad. What was confusing was that you were referring to Edward as Child #13 when what you have is an American version - perhaps more authentic in folk parlance as it has evolved from the old ballad to the point of mentioning "coon dogs". Since there are no raccoons in Britain, there never has been a need for dogs to hunt them. Not only that, but landed gentry like Edward NEVER went hunting vermin! I have sent the version I know as "Edward" to Dick for inclusion as the other Edward Ballad has only a slight relationship. On Barratts, I only wondered why I didn't get a hit on BARRET while it showed up searching on PRIVATEER.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Susan of DT
Date: 20 Nov 96 - 07:18 PM

The child number goes on any song that is more or less recognizable as the same song. There is certainly no reason to exclude American versions. It is fun to trace versions from different places/times.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Alex
Date: 20 Nov 96 - 11:29 PM

True. In fact, the act of "collecting" them kills the development of the folk process, freezing that version in time.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Nov 96 - 07:45 PM

Hi- re "Freezing" songs--

I once believed this, but no longer. If you want to check it out for yourself, sing any song that you learned a while ago, and then try going back to the source. Differences can be astounding!

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: John Robinson
Date: 22 Nov 96 - 07:28 PM

Gosh: I started this conversation off! I'm pleased that it has sparked off so much interest! The Child volume that I have (not in front of me: wish it was!!) says something about Edward having Scandinavian roots. I have heard (not sure where) that the last few lines in the British version (I'm British!)which say that Edward won't return home until "the sun & the moon dance on yon hill" come from a much earlier tradition of Scandanavian poetry. Also, my (university library) version of Child links Edward with Lizzy Wan, albeit rather diffidently.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Martin Jonas
Date: 28 Nov 96 - 11:30 AM

Child does indeed claim that Edward has Scandinavian roots - however around the turn of the century it was very fashionable to attribute Scandinavian roots to just about every ballad. This has to do with the myth that the "big" folk ballads dated back to some pure all-Germanic proto society before the separation of high and low art. Currently, it seems that folk ballads, even the magical and archaic seeming ones, don't necessary predate early street ballads and broadsides but more or less evolved in parallel with them, i.e. from about the 16th century.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 96 - 09:39 PM

Hi Martin - welcome aboard

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: GUEST,Knox Mix
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:16 PM

Burl Ives Songbook has a version of the Edward Ballad under the title, Edward. It "was collected in the southern Appalachian Mountains by the English scholar Cecil Sharpe."

A version which appears to be the basis for Edward and Edward Ballad is in The World's 1000 Best Poems (10 small volumes), Funk & Wagnalls copyright 1929. There it is claimed to have been translated by Algernon Swinburne from Finnish. The last line is "When God shall judge between the quick and the dead, O dear mither". I take "quick" to mean "living". "The Quick and the Dead" was the title of a book or movie, if I remember correctly.

I am an infrequent visitor but I will check back occasionally to see if anyone is interested in the version I have.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: GUEST,Knox Mix
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:27 PM

The title is The Bloody Son.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:30 PM

The Burl Ives version is HERE in the DT. Swinburne's "The Bloody Son" is in his Poems and Ballads, which is online (HERE and HERE.
~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM

FWIW - the song is still very much alive with trad singers. Karan Casey recorded a version on her latest CD, "The Winds Begin To Sing" under the title "Who Put The Blood". It does not mention the name Edward but is clearly the same song. The liner notes say she got it from a Gaelic singer in Co. Waterford, Ireland. ~Michael

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM

Hmm, sounds like the story of Edward the Martyr, king of England. He was killed by his mother at the gates of Corfe Caste, Dorset, to allow his brother to take the throne.....

I wonder.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 03:24 PM

The song is still current not just in Ireland, of course, but also in England, Scotland and (particularly) the USA and Canada.  Edward appeared in Bishop Percy's Reliques of Ancient English Poetry (1765-75), some seventy years before Swinburne was born; the book was massively popular and quite an inspiration to the Romantic poets.  Swinburne's rendition of the Finnish analogue into vaguely Scots English was not untypical of a number of such translations by poets of the time; for example, the Flemish Heer Halewijn, a relative of The Outlandish Knight, was similarly turned into a literary "Border Ballad" (unfortunately I can't remember the details at present).

The set from Burl Ives in the DT, incidentally, doesn't match any of the many published variants from Cecil Sharp's Appalachian trip, so if that was his source I'd guess that it's a collation of several different ones rather than a traditional text.  The tune as given is close to two sets Sharp found in North Carolina.

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:11 PM

The Finnish version "Velisurmaaja" ["The Fratricide"] is mentioned in this article: "Finnish Folk Songs in Minnesota", by Marjorie Edgar. The Finnish text with English translation is in Archer Taylor, "Edward" and "Sven i Rosengard" (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1931, p. 61). Jean Sibelius arranged the song in Six Finnish Folksongs (1903).

~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 10:40 PM

Here is Lesley Nelson's version of Edward.

Garry

Subject: RE: Lyric Request: Edward
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 09:49 AM

That's the set from Burl Ives' book as mentioned above.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE BLOODY SON (A C Swinburne)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 11:05 AM

I think Swinburne's poem deserves to be included here. Copied from one of Masato's links above.

THE BLOODY SON
(Algernon Charles Swinburne)

"O where have ye been the morn sae late,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
O where have ye been the morn sae late?
And I wot I hae but anither."
"By the water-gate, by the water-gate,
O dear mither."

"And whatten kin' o' wark had ye there to make,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And whatten kin' o' wark had ye there to make?
And I wot I hae but anither."
"I watered my steeds with water frae the lake,
O dear mither."

"Why is your coat sae fouled the day,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
Why is your coat sae fouled the day?
And I wot I hae but anither."
"The steeds were stamping sair by the weary banks of clay,
O dear mither."

"And where gat ye thae sleeves of red,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And where gat ye thae sleeves of red?
And I wot I hae but anither."
"I have slain my ae brither by the weary water-head,
O dear mither."

"And where will ye gang to mak your mend,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And where will ye gang to mak your mend?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"The warldis way, to the warldis end,
O dear mither."

"And what will ye leave your father dear,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And what will ye leave your father dear?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"The wood to fell and the logs to bear,
For he'll never see my body mair,
O dear mither."

"And what will ye leave your mither dear,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And what will ye leave your mither dear?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"The wool to card and the wool to wear,
For ye'll never see my body mair,
O dear mither."

"And what will ye leave for your wife to take,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And what will ye leave for your wife to take?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"A goodly gown and a fair new make,
For she'll do nae mair for my body's sake,
O dear mither."

"And what will ye leave your young son fair,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And what will ye leave your young son fair?
And I wot ye hae not anither."
"A twiggen school-rod for his body to bear,
Though it garred him greet he'll get nae mair,
O dear mither."

"And what will ye leave your little daughter sweet,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And what will ye leave your little daughter sweet?
And I wot ye hae not anither."
"Wild mulberries for her mouth to eat,
She'll get nae mair though it garred her greet,
O dear mither."

"And when will ye come back frae roamin',
My merry son, come tell me hither?
And when will ye come back frae roamin'?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"When the sunrise out of the north is comen,
O dear mither."

"When shall the sunrise on the north side be,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
When shall the sunrise on the north side be?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"When chuckie-stanes shall swim in the sea,
O dear mither."

"When shall stanes in the sea swim,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
When shall stanes in the sea swim?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"When birdies' feathers are as lead therein,
O dear mither."

"When shall feathers be as lead,
My merry son, come tell me hither?
When shall feathers be as lead?
And I wot I hae not anither."
"When God shall judge between the quick and dead,
O dear mither."

[From "Poems and Ballads." Based on a Finnish original.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edward
From: Mo the caller
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 03:19 AM

Thanks for the hint about searching, Susan. Barrats Privateers brings up this thread, am now off to look under privateers

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Edward
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Feb 20 - 12:34 PM

This must be the ballad which got itself
translated into German, when the Germans were waxing enthusiastic
about "volksthümlicher Lied",
the art song in 'folk-song style.'
Composer Carl Loewe, a professional classical singer who went on to become
an art-song composer to be reckoned with,
set the German-language 'Edward' to music --
it may even have been his Opus 1, an ambitious one!