BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)

Subject: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

I have a slow computer, and I also perceive that the original Muslim Intolerance thread has drifted somewhat from the act of inception, which was the brutal street murder of Theo Van Gogh.

I want to bring forth some more current events, the airing of yet another "elders of Zion" type theme on Arab daytime TV:

Jordanian Soap Opera - Jews Using Voodoo To Destroy Muhammed


and a relatively new story of an attempt to sue Oriana Fallaci based on her critique of radical Muslims.

Oriana Fallaci

It's pretty important to restate that Islam as a religion is like its sister religions, Judaism and Christianity. All have within them seeds of intolerance, and one can't denigrate one without looking to see if one is perhaps turning a blind eye toward one's more habitual spiritual haunts.

Having said that, I belive it is possible that the murder of Theo Van Gogh and acts of anti-semitism in France, the Madrid bombings, and a lack of a counter-clerical movement in European Islam has probably had a hand in the current no votes toward the European constitution in France and the Netherlands.

Having said that, we are also experiencing a war within Islam between the hidebound orthodox clerics, and those who, like the leaders of the Enlightenment in Europe, wish to free the minds of their followers.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 AM

Thanks for the interesting link to the soap opera. Though we all know that in principle nothing is real in these TV-stories they show the prejudices prevalant in the respective society. The other story however is something different.

Smith vs. Fallaci:
That's two hotheads and (here) not to be taken serious people in a clash. Funny to watch but nothing serious.

The part Scottish part Egyptian part Italian Mr. Smith is a late convert to Islam know for his physical force attacks on Christian symbols and on dissenting guests in talkshows. He has sued already everybody from a simple teacher to the old and the new pope (when Ratzinger wasn't pope yet). His many (often lost) court cases can be considered a real job-creation measure for the Italian legal profession. That's just his most recent approach to pick a fight with a celebrity.

Fallaci, the famous journalist, fighter against fascism, once extremely left-liberal, who has interviewed everybody famous in 'Arabia' even when no Western politician talked to them, is now close to death from cancer. She has recently (after 9/11) written in a great hurry two books about the threat of Islam to Europe. "Camelfuckers" who are "breeding like rats", "urinate on our monuments", "shit on our churchyards" and make Europe a "Eurabia" give an impression about her anger and style in these books. There's nothing more left of her former liberal attempt to understand other people that once has made her journalism famous. The left has been embarrassed by these books. "Fuck you" was her public comment when hearing about Smith sueing her.

Funny to watch I said above, but perhaps I should have said 'Sad to watch'. She'll probably die before the case is heard and Smith'll be looking for the next target.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Clarence
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

Recent newspaper editorial comment:

SO,WHERE'S THE RIOT?

On Friday,May 27,at least eighteen people were killed and several dozen wounded when a suicide bomber detonated himself at a crowed Muslin shrine on the outskirts of Islamabad.Altough the identity of the bomber is unknown,it is widely believed the attack is yet another chapter in the long-running battle between Pakistan's Sunni and Shiite Muslim extremists.
Given recent eventa,we would have expected the attack to set off riots all over the Islamic world,with Muslims outraged at the senseless death of their co-religionists.But these riots,strangely,did not materialize.Apparently,a rumor that the bomb had knocked a copy of the Koran into a toilet bowl proved unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:36 PM

I'd say this thread is more an example of intolerance toward Muslims than the other way around. Just like the other thread with this title.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 12:47 PM

another view of islam

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 03:48 PM

Al qaida calling the Cunninghams.

Al Quaida calling the Cunninghams.

Do you read us? Please respond and report.

Mohammad here.

Al Quaida calling the Cunninghams. come in, please.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 04:02 PM

For those who don't read the contents of links, this is an excerpt of a Fatwa that was issued on the subject of whether or not American Muslims can fight on behalf of the United States in Muslim countries and still be good Muslims. The particular "Muhammad" in question in this case is the first ever Muslim Chaplain of the United States Army, Abdul-Rasheed Muhammad...

(21:07) Reading from Fatwa

The fatwa, a legal opinion concerning Islamic law, was issued by Muhammad's religious endorser, Taha Jabir Alwani, an Islamic scholar at the School of Islamic and Social Sciences in Leesburg, Virginia � an academy that certifies the religious credentials of those applying to be Muslim chaplains in the armed forces. Read the September 27, 2001 fatwa [English � Arabic] written by prominent scholars from Egypt, Syria, the United States, and Qatar � including a noted critic of U.S. military operations in the Middle East, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council in Qatar. Here is a translated excerpt from that edict:

    "The Muslim (soldier) must perform his duty in this fight despite the feeling of uneasiness of "fighting without discriminating." His intention (niyya) must be to fight for enjoining of the truth and defeating falsehood. It's to prevent aggression on the innocents, or to apprehend the perpetrators and bring them to justice. It's not his concern what other consequences of the fighting that might result in his personal discomfort, since he alone can neither control it nor prevent it. Furthermore, all deeds are accounted (by God) according to the intentions. God (the Most High) does not burden any soul except what it can bear. In addition, Muslim jurists have ruled that what a Muslim cannot control he cannot be held accountable for, as God (the Most High) says: "And keep your duty to God as much as you can." 64:16. The prophet (prayer and peace be upon him) said: "when I ask of you to do something, do it as much as you can." The Muslim here is a part of a whole, if he absconds, his departure will result in a greater harm, not only for him but also for the Muslim community in his country � and here there are many millions of them. Moreover, even if fighting causes him discomfort spiritually or psychologically, this personal hardship must be endured for the greater public good, as the jurisprudence (fiqhi) rule states.

To sum up, it's acceptable � God willing � for the Muslim American military personnel to partake in the fighting in the upcoming battles, against whomever, their country decides, has perpetrated terrorism against them. Keeping in mind to have the proper intention as explained earlier, so no doubts would be cast about their loyalty to their country, or to prevent harm to befall them as might be expected. This is in accordance with the Islamic jurisprudence rules which state that necessities dictate exceptions, as well as the rule that says one may endure a small harm to avoid a much greater harm."

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:56 PM

Wolfgang, CarolC, JTS:
Thanks for improving the breadth of this thread. Perhaps the title deserves a questionmark.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:39 PM

If you expect to get anything across to Martin, you're wasting your time. He can't read.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:55 PM

Well carol once again I take issue with your statements, when someone is quoting facts how can that be intolerant? I'm sorry if the facts quoted do not fit your agenda but the are nonetheless facts. Truth is obviously not just the first casualty of war!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 01:33 PM

John 'Giok' MacKenzie, I refer you, yet once again, to this thread:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=79000

Using facts in a selective manner in order to smear an entire group with the wrongs committed by some members of that group is a form of intolerance (Joe Offer called it bigotry on the thread in the link I provided). And doing it over and over and over and over and over, ad infinitem, serves the purpose of actively promoting intolerance toward the group in question. Perhaps you can't see beyond your own agenda in order to understand this. GUEST,Clarence's post takes that tactic and adds another level of intolerance based not on the truth, but on a distortion of events promoted by people with an unmistakably intolerant agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:49 PM

As you said Carol, using facts .
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:05 PM

Al qaida calling the Carol C
Al Quaida calling the Carol C.

Do you read us? Please respond and report.

Mohammad here.

Al Quaida calling the CarolC. come in, please.

We appreciate all you are doing to help us with the jihad. For that, we will now allow you to keep your genitals.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:24 PM

My point still stands, John 'Giok' MacKenzie. The selective use of "facts" in this thread and the other one with the same name is more an example of intolerance toward Muslims than the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 03:34 PM

Al qaida calling the Carol C
Al Quaida calling the Carol C.

Do you read us? Please respond and report.

Mohammad here.

Al Quaida calling the CarolC. come in, please.

We appreciate all you are doing to help us with the jihad. For that, we will now allow you to keep your genitals.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:03 PM

And then of course, the other kinds of posts in this thread that have nothing whatever to do with "facts" and that consist of nothing more than bigoted supremacist hatemongering, are an even bigger example how this thread is more about intolerance toward Muslims, than the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:06 PM

Martin Gibson, Al Quaida spokesperson.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:16 PM

Not me, pal

Looks you and your old lady do enough propaganda for them. I just love to keep pointing it out.

You are the one who has tolerance for terrorists and love to defend them.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:23 PM

You're too bigotted to see the difference between the terrorists and the billion Muslim's who are not. Ironically, your bigotry, small mindedness and verbal violence, while representing yourself as a jew, provides a far better case for countering Israeli oppression of Palestine than Carol's reasoned arguements ever could.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:29 PM

any excuse for a Jew hater like you Jack the shithead works just fine for you and your al Quaida Koran loving self and your wife.

Nazi all over support the Palestinian cause. Zeig Heil, Mohammad!!

Go clean out your trailer's sewer, Jack don't fall in and die from the toxicity of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:39 PM

Nazis hate Muslims and Arabs just as much as you do, Martin. You hate all of the same groups of people that the Nazis do except for the group you, yourself, identify with. Which of course, is exactly what the Nazis do. They hate everone except for the group they identify with themeselves. Just like you.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:42 PM

You know so much about who the Nazis hate. You obviously speak from your own experience.

Please shove it sideways, Carol Mohammad

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:44 PM

The "problem" with "Martin Gibson" is not the fictitious personna or the real assole that's behind it, but with the mindless folks that rise to his bait and post to his threads.

Listen up, people: if you want to be free of this asshole IGNORE HIM AND DON'T RESPOND TO HIS SHIT!!

Simple, really.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

No, Martin. Unlike you, my knowlege of Nazis comes exclusively from observing them from afar, and with extreme distaste. Whereas you understand them because you are just like them.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:06 PM

i suppose you feel your a jewish american,right marty.if so you can go right where every one that has to preface there being american with something else first can go.if it is to hard to be an american first,get out of my country. to carol c.what is with the muslim soldier bit,there may be some soldiers that are muslims in the us army;but i hope to hell tere are no muslim soldiers in the us mil.if they are,they do not belong there,or in this country for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:09 PM

jpk, you really sound and write like you are on drugs or just drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:14 PM

CarolC, it's laughable how you call Jews Nazis and stick up for terrorists. I have observed Nazis and felt their anti-semitism and had them march in my town of Skokie when I lived there. It is where there are many holocaust survivors and their families are still living.

It is where my temple and others in the neighborhood have had swastikas painted on the doors. You are a complete idiot with your "studied from afar" tap dance.

The only world you know is what's between your legs. You are a disgrace and one completely stupid person.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:28 PM

don't do either marty,i don't fantize about myself either,try and unwind martin,you might have a good then.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:30 PM

Same old tap dance from Martoon, the supremacist.

jpk, did you read the contents of the link Jack the Sailor posted on 02 Jun 05 at 12:47 PM?

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:34 PM

Hate is hate, Martin, whether it's directed at Jews or at Muslims or Arabs, or anyone else. The Nazis hate everyone who is not like them. You hate everyone who is not like you. You are the same as the Nazis because you hate everyone who is not like you. You are different from the Nazis in only one respect... you do not profess to hate Jews. In all other respects you are the same.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:38 PM

carolC,no,i only glanced at it,i believe i might look it over alittle closer now that you brought it to my attention.good day to you jpk.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:59 PM

jpk, I sure don't hate veryone. Just a few Mudcatters who have there heads up their asses and whine a lot, besides the anti-semites. You're right in there for being an idiot moron, also.

You ought to get that shift key fixed. At least I find it 75% of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:36 PM

ffolkes: this is the time to speak to the point and not attack persons. I didn't start this thread continuation for more 'says you' attacks. If you don't have something concrete to add that is somewhat researched and informative, consider counting to a hundred or waiting till the next morning to post.

Thank you for your care and consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:51 PM

Robomatic.

You pathetic bigot. If you don't want this kind of crap, especially from troll in chief, Martin Gibson, don't walk into his playground and invite him to play.

It can be easily show that there are intolerent people among every ethnic and and religious group. Are the many American's are so quick to point out bigotry among Muslims so blind to their own intolerence?

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:14 PM

space for nonresponse here. This is how its done folks. JTS thanks for the challenge.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM

JTS, I am intolerant of when you belch real loud and stink up a room with your 4 day old underpants.

Otherwise, I can be pretty easy going.

What a dummy you are.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:19 PM

your really easy on people marty.when you tell them to kiss your ass, at least they don't need to bend down to reach it.have a nice day if you can.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:55 PM

He certainly brings up the tone of a disussion, doesn't he? He doesn't actually SAY anything, he just throws obscenities and abuse. His main objective, of course, is to disrupt any discussion that might bring up points that he disagrees with, and in that, he seems to be pretty successful. In doing that, it appears that he's quite a good censor.

Why does anybody pay any attention to this pathetic little crypto-fascist?

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: jpk
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:02 PM

good point

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM

So, anyone doing anything fun on a Saturday night in Mudville? Me, I am stuck home with a pain in the neck. Pushed it a bit today with installing AC's at my Mum's. Of course, about two hours after we started, the temp dropped by about 5C and the forecast is for 'you don't need AC for at least another week'.

Anyone up for some Eminem's? NNWW. Eh, wha'? Knoooow what I mean, eh Govnah?

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:45 PM

I prefer Smarties. Do you eat the red ones last?

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 05:52 PM

Smarties were the original, right? That's where the song is from. Are Eminems different colors? They melt in your mouth right? I don't remember Smarties melting in my hand but maybe that's because I inhaled them as a kid.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST,gnu
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM

Yeah... from the song... do you suck them very slowly, Or crunch them very fast? It's that candy coated Chocolate, so tell me when I ask....

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:53 PM

Treats - melt in your mouth not in your hand.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 03:37 AM

I was just thinking yesterday that this thread could be re-titled Moslem Tolerence, it could then become a discussion as to why the majority of moslems who believe in the Koran and its' teachings, are not up in arms like the rest of us condemning the actions of the militant minority. As Edmund Burke almost said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Are they becoming like the Catholic church, or even some police forces, more concerned with maintaining the image of their organisation than in weeding out the rotten apples contained in their particular barrel?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 10:57 AM

The Muslims probably feel like a persecuted majority, much as the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of America. The 100% Muslim nation of Saudi Arabia, where it is death to try and convert a Muslim, and the many overweening majorities of Yemen, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Azerbaijan, Usbekistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkmenistan. Such a fount of democraic thought and wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:38 AM

I was just thinking yesterday that this thread could be re-titled Moslem Tolerence, it could then become a discussion as to why the majority of moslems who believe in the Koran and its' teachings, are not up in arms like the rest of us condemning the actions of the militant minority.

This is an assumption and not based on fact. And it is an example of one of the more insidious kinds of intolerance (or possibly bigotry) towards Muslims that we see in the West. Just because you haven't heard about them doing what you mention doesn't mean they aren't doing it. It just means that the sources you go to for news and information are ignoring it when it does happen.

And most people couldn't be bothered to take the time to find out for themselves, because of their own intolerance toward Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:59 AM

I don't see any other groups with terrorist training camps other than Moslems.

New ones have been cranking them out now in Pakistan last I heard.

I know that many of you tolerate this. It's so obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:22 PM

Many, many groups besides Muslims have training camps for "terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters/guerilla fighers", etc. Whether or not the governments of countries like the US recognize them as "terrorists" really depends on whether or not the US is using them to further their own agendas. Often, when the US is using these people as proxy fighters, the government of the US refers to them as "freedom fighters" or as "rebels". The only thing that determines whether or not they will be labeled as "terrorists" is whether or not they are useful to the US government.

In the case of Muslims, at this point in time, the US government's agenda is better served by calling Muslims terrorists rather than any of the other names they could be using. Back when the US was using Muslims in Afghanistan as proxy fighters against the Soviet Union, the government of the US had other, more benign names for them. And of course, many of those very same people, trained by the US in Afghanistan, and doing the bidding of the US there (Osama bin Laden being the most well know of these), are now considered "terrorists". It's all the same thing, though. Just different spin.

Subject: RE: BS: More Muslim Intolerance (2)
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:28 PM

That's bullshit. Comparing armies of organized countries to a religious group of Islamic-facists with no other motive than to cause terror and not PROTECT a recognized country but to rid the world of "infidels" shows what kind of a moron you are and shows that you cross the line with your tolerance crap.

Tolerance has limits. Tolerance is NOT open-ended. Tolerance is not the answer to terrorists. Tolerance for the sake of tolerance does not have to automatically be..................tolerated.