BS: Lincoln gay?

Subject: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Kaleea
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:58 AM

As I was channel surfing, I came upon some news show & someone? was saying that Abraham Lincoln was gay. Then they went to a commercial & my phone rang. Does anyone know anthing about this? I had not heard it. Sounded like they were trying to tie this in with the reason he was murdered.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:22 AM

Old stuff:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1376919,00.html

Possibly treu. Who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:37 AM

There have been rumors that Lincoln may have been gay for about as long as I can remember. Most of the "evidence" is marginally credible, if you seriously want to believe it. It's probably impossible to make any firm conclusions based on anything I've seen.

He is included in one of the popular Famous Gays listings as a "possible" (along with three popes and a number of legislators and other leaders of several nations). The "possible" listing is based on a fairly recent book, which is quite possibly the source/instigation for what you've run into. He is included in same category, possibly but unknown, in the more thorough and authoritative Wikopedia Famous Gays listing, again on the basis claims made in the same one book.

We do know with reasonable certainty that he was married and had at least one child. Prevailing opinion is that his spouse was one of the most intolerable (expletive for female persons deleted) in recent public/political history, and that he was quite likely denied "normal" marital companionship. I've never heard of any credible evidence that he sought extramarital female or male companions for physical/sexual activities.

Does it particularly matter?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:39 AM

Of course it matters. When homosexuals are still subject to discrimination and sometimes are victims of persecution, it matters if we find out that someone who is a political hero is gay. It is readdressing history, and writing a historical wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 06:10 AM

And if he wasn't gay then you're definitely writing a wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:03 AM

It only matters if you think it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 08:49 AM

Was buggery a capital crime in the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:06 AM

Lincoln had two sons, Robert Todd and Tad. He was also quite shy about "courting" Mary Todd, not because he was gay but because his origins were those of a self-taught, self-made man whose antecedents were poor farmers and hers were well-to-do Kentuckians. There is some thought, but very little (if any) actual proof, that Abe contracted gonorrhea either while waiting for his militia unit to be deployed during the tragic Blackhawk War or on a flat boat trip to New Orleans.

Lincoln's "social disease," like his gayness, is the result of modern interpretations. There is very little evidence for either. (I've seen the "evidence" of his gayness. Much is made of his sharing a bed with other men; nothing is said that this was a very common thing at the time and that nothing sexual was implied by it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:10 AM

Something to keep in mind, how come if we see so much evidence of it, his enemies didn't use it to destroy him?

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:13 AM

It is the easiest thing in the world to cast doubts on the sexual practices of another person. How could the person refute it? By offering the world a diary (verified by an unimpeacable source) which accounts for his location and companions every hour of his life from puberty on?

No, wait I don't mean every hour. He could have indulged in quickies. I must mean every five minutes......

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:19 AM

Marfan's syndrome, I've heard... but not gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

Le Scaramouche -

Was buggery a capital crime in the USA?

At times and in some places, officially yes.

At times and in more places, effectively yes if you include lynchings as "officially sanctioned" punishments, which they have been in some parts of the country.

"Buggery" is not mentioned in most US (States) law. The usual term is the more general and less specific "sodomy," which remains only vaguely defined in the laws of most states. Until recently several states merely prohibited, sometimes with EXTREME penalties "the unspeakable act," leaving it to the imagination of jurists and juries what might constitute "the crime."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:44 AM

The most that could be said on the basis of the evidence would be "bisexual", not homosexual. And I don't see any great reason to believe even that.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 11:49 AM

Gay (or lesbian) and straight are not absolutes, but are parts of the great mosaic of human sexuality. They need not be mutually exclusive. In addition to our biology (male, female, intersex) and our predominant affectional orientation (homo-, hetero-, bi-, pan-, a-), there are also issues of gender identification and gender expression that go into the mosaic. When we ask "Was Lincoln gay?" we could just as well be asking that of any person -- including everyone on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:31 PM

Well, he did go to the theater a lot. That's suspicious. And what about all those 'coincidental' similarities between him and JFK? Perhaps Marilyn was a red- herring. Yeah, he must have been gay. It stands to reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Alba
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:35 PM

It doesn't matter what Lincoln's sexual orientaion was but it does matter in so far as historical accuracy as Freda suggests..

As for his detractors or the Press not jumping all over this issue back then,
That was not the approach taken to Politics. That is a 'Now' tactic. Personal issues becoming fodder for the Cannons of negative campaigning.. I think.

A lot of gay Men and Women marry, they are not bi- sexual they are Homosexual and feel forced to conform to social pressures and prejudice from Churches and Employers ect due to discrimination. If Gay people are still having these problems in 2005...surely there would have been absolutely no tolerance let alone understanding of an openly gay President during Lincoln's time? A lot of marriages then were, in a sense, arranged (Family connections, Political affilations ect) and a lot of these marriages were loveless, they were a business arrangment. Status and Child bearing were high on the reason couples were matched and married.
Does it matter if ANYONE is Gay. No not in the slightest as far as I am concerned. Might bother someone else because of their personal religious views but then that is THEIR OWN personal Religious perspective not EVERYONE'S, we do not ALL follow or believe in the same Beliefs.

Historically, yes it matters. If Lincoln was Gay or wasn't. It matters.


Love to All and I mean ALL
.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:42 PM

"As for his detractors or the Press not jumping all over this issue back then,
That was not the approach taken to Politics. That is a 'Now' tactic. Personal issues becoming fodder for the Cannons of negative campaigning.. I think."

Like hell it wasn't. Smear tactics are as old as politics, and homosexuality was a far bigger issue in the 1800s than it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:28 PM

The late Quentin Crisp, who characterized himself as "one of the stately homos of England," appeared some years ago on an interview show. The interviewer noted his somewhat androgynous appearance (elderly with fairly long, blue hair, and he wore shirt and slacks that could have been worn by either gender) and asked him if he is ever asked whether he is a man or woman. Crisp replied that it happens all the time. "How do you respond to such questions?" the interviewer asked. Crisp said, "I usually ask them, 'Does it matter? What do you have in mind?'"

Worth thinking about.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:32 PM

".surely there would have been absolutely no tolerance let alone understanding of an openly gay President during Lincoln's time"

" homosexuality was a far bigger issue in the 1800s than it is now."

Aren't these two remarks basically saying the same thing ?

In the 1800's they would not have offended the reader of newspapers with some of things they bring into the arena now!
It may have been as scathing behind closed doors but not openly written about for all to Read. No TV, No Radio, No FIlm, Women were considered shameful if they showed and ankle!

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:15 PM

It would have been dynamite. Could easily have destroyed his life and carreer. The main reason you didn't publish that sort of thing was fear of being sued for libel.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 03:57 PM

Yes, it would have destroyed his life and career. In fact, had he been openly gay he would have been ostracized in New Salem, derided in the military (remember he was elected an officer of the militia), and, I'm certain, never elected to the House of Representatives. In fact, he would probably have lived in New York or St. Louis instead of Springfield. And he certainly wouldn't have been nominated to the Presidency!

While it happened some years later, consider what happened to Oscar Wilde. Lincoln was living in a time and place where to be openly gay, or even if there were reasonably substantial rumors of being a "pouf" would have most likely gotten him tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail (if he was lucky). It certainly would not have helped his law or political careers!

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:22 PM

Might even have driven him to take his life.
I have a feeling that this 'proof' has as much grounds as the Hector MacDonald affair.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 04:38 PM

It is only a case, as Rapaire said, of a modern person giving a modern interpretation to events that happened in a different time. That doesn't work when you're talking about history.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 05:07 PM

Absolutely!

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 07:43 PM

re Lincoln, it wasn't the fashion to "come out" in his day. none of us can know what someone did in the bedroom a hundred years ago or last week. and while enlightened catters here don't care, many people do, including those who experience prejudice. and that includes people here who are not out, who are very talented, and who choose not to be out because they just want to be treated with respect.

Peopel's standards of proof can vary, too.                                 
closet gay

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 07:48 PM

and speaking of attitudes, this is worth taking a look at - how we got here from there

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST,Frogprince
Date: 23 Jun 05 - 09:27 PM

Where ever there is a controversial cause, there will be some supporting it with spurious nonsense who serve only to undermine the credability of the whole cause, or at least to provide straw opponents for the opposite side. Not too long ago I heard a self-proclaimed champion of rights lamenting that, while the movie and TV series "The Odd Couple" was obviously about gay men, the writers and producers were too cowardly to be straightforward about it. The premise that brought the "Odd Couple" together was explained from the outset, and had nothing to do with anyone being gay. Wishful thinking on the part of our "expert" acquaintance, and in all probability wishful thinking in the case of Lincoln.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 04:45 AM

Honest Abe
was quite a babe
with perfect thighs
he was one of the guys

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 05:06 AM

Just occurred to me, it must be great to have a totally unsuspicious nature as in:-

Yeh Lincoln was The President, but we just couldn't find a bed for him on his own - he had to sleep with a soldier....

look that's just where Clinton rested his cigar, could have been here , could have been there.....

Michael Jackson slept with little boys, but that's just cos he 's kind and likes to make friends with them...

Okay Hitler invaded Poland, but he didn't mean anything by it....

You wouldn't really need an open marriage if you were involved with someone like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 06:12 AM

I suppose I'm never up on history, unless it is Music History. It was news to me. I did know about he and his wife being Spiritualists.    I can only imagine that the only reason it might matter would be the irony if "Father Abraham" founded the party which seeks to place restrictions on gays.
   I also dislike speaking of the deceased when they cannot speak for themselves, especially when the person is such an important person to our history. Whatever the case, he was exactly the person we needed at the time to bring the North & South back together as one United States of America. He was a great statesman.
   The book on my nightstand for many years, "Light From Many Lamps" has some of his writings and speeches. Read him sometime. He was a brilliant man.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:11 AM

actually it could explain all that much sympathised with petulance on the part of his wife.

If he had lived happily ever after she could met Oscar Wilde's wife. Mary and Constance together they would have much to talk about - both being married to men gifted with words.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 09:04 AM

LoL!

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 03:44 PM

I,personally don't find the evidence that Lilcoln was gay credible.
Lincoln had three sons. Robert Todd who lived to adulthood and served in both the Garfield and McKinley administrations, Willie who I believe died while Lincoln was president and Tad who died a few years after his father was murdered.
If Lincoln wasn't a ladies man he certainly was attracted to the opposite sex notably Anne Hathaway in addition to his wife.
Licoln suffered from Marfan's syndrome. There is no documentation that he ever suffered from a venereal disease. Marfan's Syndrome accounts for his disproportional Hands, feet and ears.
The short version is that even if he was gay it doesn't negate his accomplishments. Kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 08:19 PM

what is strange is that - if its really old stuff, how come Gore Vidal didn't mention it in his book. Or maybe he did in a veiled manner and I didn't pick up on it at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 24 Jun 05 - 10:10 PM

I was told by a fellow from Petersburg, Illinois (the town that survived when New Salem, Illinois--where Abe lived--ceased to exist) that it is gnerally "common knowledge around there" that Abe had a sexually transmitted disease, and that was why there was a near breakup between he and Mary. Abe went away then, and had a "cure" of sorts---folks say. This period was/is usually ascribed to Abe's melanchilia. If he did have this disease, and if he gave it to Mary, it might explain a lot----including her mental disease.

Probably just local folk tales though, right???

;-)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:37 AM

I dunno Art.

Robert louis stevenson got this same saintly veneer that 19th century families seemed to go in for. It makes it vey hard for those of us who admire the achievements of the man, to actually see the man - get a sense of him. Although RLS was a garrulous soul and theres more of himself expressed in his writing - so theres more for his biographers to go on.

I suppose all politicians spend their lives putting as good a gloss on their actions as they can - Lincoln being no fool, was no exception.

i devoured Gore Vidal's book looking for clues, and similarly with Casey Terfertiller's excellent book on Wyatt Earp. Somehow the essence of these people is shrouded.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:29 AM

So how many children did he actually have? We've got the count up to three now but people seem to differ....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:40 AM

I thought the title of this thread was Lincoln Gray, I was worried about Robin Hood.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Frankham
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 09:13 AM

Maybe some of Bush's cronies at the White House will think twice before sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom. :)

You never know how you catch it! :)


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:11 AM

If Gore Vidal didn't claim Lincoln was gay, he wasn't gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 10:56 AM

If gay means happy, by all reports Lincoln wasn't gay.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 02:38 PM

Rapaire: ever seen a picture of Lincoln's wife? That could explain his "shyness."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 05:31 PM

Actually, Abraham Lincoln was a space alien.






(there's WAY more "evidence" for that than for the homosexual, bisexual or social disease flights of fancy)

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 06:01 PM

When talking of the 19th century, a social disease is not such a flight of fancy as homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Jun 05 - 07:30 PM

DougR says:

ever seen a picture of Lincoln's wife? That could explain his "shyness."

A couple of rather ugly pictures have been widely circulated, and are likely to be what most people remember, but a more recent Google image search will get some rather more favorable ones. Mary Todd was considered quite an attractive woman in her time, although perhaps less for her physical attributes than for her ability to "throw a great party."

Since she was from the Confederate state of Kentucky, she was openly accused during the war of being a "spy for the Confederacy" by many northerners, and of being a "traitor" by many of her (former?) friends and family in the Confederate states, which must have been something of an unpleasantness.

One of her three sons died while Lincoln was in office, and another
shortly after Abe was murdered. Some say that the son who died while Abe was president was her "favorite," and that her mood was significantly affected; but the reports of actual effects are rather vague.

One story is that Mary Todd was seriously worried about her poverty after Abe was gone, and there are some tales about some rather bizarre things she did because of that concern. There was no "retirement benefit" for ex-first ladies at the time. A son had her judged "insane" and she spent a month or so in a care facility (various less pleasant names were used for the facility at the time) but a "political friend" was able to get a retrial and she was found "sane(?)" by the second jury.

Stories about her strange behaviour relate mostly to the period after Abe's murder; but of course different authors give different accounts. There are a reasonable number of incidents in the latter part of Abe's presidency that do show at least the "public display" of a strong and apparently conventional marital relationship.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Lincoln gay?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 26 Jun 05 - 12:42 AM

For the record, Kentucky never joined the Confederacy. While it was a slave state, its sympathies were divided, and it had just enough pro-Union political leaders to defeat the secessionists.