BS: On being mugged

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 11:03 AM

Cluin - I've been there.. this skull didn't get fractured by sitting on my ass in front of a computer. You're right in that no-one knows how they will react, but at least if you've read this thread, you might have a few more ideas if it does happen.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Pauline L
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 01:54 AM

Thanks, Janie. I'm doing much better than I was a month ago.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 01:52 AM

Lots of tough talk from people sitting on their asses in front of a computer screen. NObody knows how they'd react in a similar situation until it happens to them. I'm sorry this happened to you, Pauline. I wish it didn't and I hope it never does again. Most of all, I hope you can deal with it in your own way and don't let it get you down or change you in any negative way.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 05 - 12:28 AM

Just thought it might be good to check in--you doin' ok Pauline?

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Pauline L
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 01:46 AM

Lots of good suggestions. Thanks. I will look for a new self defense class.

The mugger told me to throw the bills from my wallet onto the ground. Then he stepped on the bills to secure them. That's when I ran away. I asked the police why he did this, and I was told that the mugger probably didn't want me to hand him the money because if I were close enough to hand it to him, I'd be close enough to strike him.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

A friend of mine, a cop, has suggested a fake wallet. You throw it on the ground, and as the guy picks it up you kick his face in (Art also suggested wearing shoes with metal cleats when you do this, but realized that that wasn't always possible).

My brother took "shooting training" from the Illinois State Police (his employer, although he's not a sworn officer). At the end of the two weeks he qualified to carry a concealed weapon when he was on duty. He sometimes, as a result, packs a .38, a "Chief's Special" that holds five rounds. He feels that he doesn't need more than that because, as he said, "If I need even one round I've made a mistake and probably shouldn't be there."

Carry a small, powerful flashlight, like one of the Maglights that take 2 AA (L6) batteries. You have light, which can blind an assailant, and a heavy aluminium case which can be used as a striking weapon (inside your fist, and hammer with the projecting ends).

I've never found the old "strike with the elbows into the guy's ribs" to be very effective. That's mostly because you can't usually get enough force going to make it work well if you're tightly held from behind and especially if you're held over your arms. Smash the instep instead -- and if you are foolish enough to be wearing high heels, place one of them on the instep and shift your full weight onto that foot.

If you can turn slightly, raise one foot and violently scrape the outside edge of your foot down along the bad guy's leg, from above the assailant's knees and bounce when you hit the instep. That will scrape his patella off AND break his instep.

If you can attack the testicles, use you hand through his clothing. Grab 'em, and yank them hard with a twisting motion. And don't worry about missing -- a man will almost always break his grib on you if reach violently for that part of his anatomy. Moreover, it's harder to block a hand than a knee. (If you do kick someone there, and it's not recommended that you try -- man or woman -- catch them on the end of your shin bone. You can literally raise them off the ground and break their pelvis. Regardless of sex they're gonna hurt.)

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 09:16 AM

Kendall

I doubt the shin is ideal - more chance of connecting and being guided in from more distance & more momentum, but knee aimed right can not be caught so easily in the vice grip that a man is instinctively going to do. Remember he has at least one hand free and if not two then a weapon in the other. I think the distance is the decider, knee close, shin further away, eyes first before deciding.

The recieved wisdom is to make a lot of noise. Loud noises are or should be agressive. Words like NO and if grabbed from behind raise arms and bring elbows down sharply into his ribs or the sides of the solar plexus.

Both the above benefit from training - self defence classes it is then. Plan ahead. Forewarned is forearmed.

But I favour the decoy wallet. If bold enough and planned by having it to hand you could throw it and give yourself a bit of distance. If dark he has to find it. No strategy is ideal, the situation isn't lets face it.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:16 PM

You could carry them, though. Without any hassle from the cops, too.

Please do not think for a minute that I do not empathize with you. I do, very much so. I would not want my own neices to be jumped, and I think that it's damned sad that this happens to anyone anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Pauline L
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 11:11 PM

Yorkshire Yankee and Janie, thanks for remembering that this is just the most recent of a string of bad experiences I've had in the last few years. Thanks for the extra sympathy.

Re kick in the groin: I was taught in one of my self defense classes not to do this because men "instinctively" defend themselves there.

I was also taught in a self defense class that identifying a person by his/her voice is sometimes more definitive than identification by looks, which people can vary, to some extent, at will. After that, I noticed that I could identify friends by their voices, their singing, or even their whistling. My recent mugging is a case in point. Since my attacker was behind me most of the time and it was dark outside, I did not get a good look at him. I could only tell his approximate weight and height. However, I heard his voice and his accent clearly, and that helped the police identify him as the person who had committed three similar attacks in my neighborhood in recent weeks.

A comb or brush could be great weapons, but I generally don't carry them in my hand as I walk along.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Janie
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:00 PM

Pauline,

I suspect you aren't particularly looking for advise about what to do if there should be a "next" time. Seems pretty clear to me that you did everything that was in your power to do at that time.

I HOPE YOU NEVER TO GO THROUGH ANYTHING LIKE THAT AGAIN.

Your job now is to process this in a way that allows you to move again in the world with some confidence. You have had to deal with so very much in the last few years, and some of those past experiences may resonate rather loudly with this one. Take of yourself, girlfriend, and be merciful with yourself.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:14 PM

Another "weapon" you might well be carrying is a comb. Slashing with a comb -- lengthwise to the comb, not side to side like you use it -- can be as effective as a knife. A "rat-tail" comb CAN be used as a knife. A hairbrush can also be effective, especially the kind with only a few hard bristles, if you wield slash with it and go for the eyes. Jabbing -- hard! -- with a hair brush can also work.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:58 PM

Avoid dark places, walk with confidence. If you are going to go for the jewels, use your shin, not your foot.
Carrying a weapon is not always stupid, I could almost pity the poor bastard who comes at me with a weapon.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:16 PM

My sympathies, Pauline. When I saw the first post was by you, I felt particularly dismayed, as I know you've already been having a pretty tough time, and this just adds to a burden that was already difficult to cope with. Will be thinking of you and hoping that things are improving -- however gradually.

As far as strategies for dealing with attack are concerned, I will relate one I have heard of that worked (although I hesitate to out-and-out recommend it): a young woman was attacked and -- (I think) for lack of being able to think of anything else to do, just lost it and flapped her arms & clucked like a chicken. Apparently the attacker found this so bizarre/bewildering that he stopped his attack on her. I admit it's doubtful as a defense, but if all else fails...

Sending good thoughts your way.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:53 PM

I am,unfortunately, well aware of the tragedy in CdA. We in the south have been following it, hoping against hope and cheering when the girl was rescued.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:44 PM

why is our society turning out so many of these turds?

what goes through someones mind before they become one of these strange degenerates on the edges of our society. how can they start to think - hey this is a good idea, great career move.....

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

Right. Do whatever it takes to get away. Especially don't let the bad guy tie you up or take you anywhere; if car-jacked, wreck the car. The BG isn't taking you anwhere to do you good.

We recently had an ugly multiple murder here in Coeur d'Alene; The family apparently went along with the killer & let them tie them up. Understandable; he had a shotgun. But the only one of the five alive now is the 8-year-old girl he carried off to rape. The mother brought her & her brother out of her bedroom to the killer, probably because he threatened the others. Better to have sent the kids out the window to get help. It would have been very hard to do, and I don't know if I could do it, but it'd be the best move.

Giving control to the attacker will seldom help you. He's not there to help you.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:54 PM

If you MUST fight (and flight is preferable, really), go all out. Immediately. Don't hold back. Kick, scream, bite, scratch, scream -- and if you have taken a voice or acting course (or if you sing), you'll know how to project your voice.

Do so.

I've even heard of a martial art based upon the voice. Can't remember what it's called, but from personal experience I know how effective the human voice can be when used correctly (envision a Marine Corps Drill Instructor chewing out a recruit -- the DI is acting, actually, but he certainly seems angry...).

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:29 PM

It was said on the other thread, I'll repeat it here... the aim is not to get even but to GET AWAY.

Do not try to take them on... try to GET AWAY.

Do not kick them in the squishy bits, it's a very small target and you could easily be overbalanced and pushed to the ground... if you really must, use your knee, your centre of gravity isn't changed so much and you are still fairly stable and able to GET AWAY.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM

Sorry to hear of your incident, Pauline. I hope you are managing to keep your spirits up.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:19 AM

dummy wallets with minimal contents are one solution, there used to be the concept (American I'm afraid) of an amount that the mugger would not beat you up for, out of spite. I had one in Honk Kong with cardboard credit cards. The time I nearly had a wallet grabbed was when buying in a public park and it was the real wallet but muggers don't work that way. I was holding it across the width not the thickness and felt a tug - I must have been wary. She (see later) tugged from the other direction and as I looked around had to do 360 - the dip was in the toilets by then - probably the ladies loo. All well worked-out. Lift cash, pass cards to next cubicle and flush all else away. Not that day.

A personal alrm is always a good thing - for reassurance if not anything else. but you have to wear it so that it can be pulled and thrown. I have one with a light - it doubles as a torch and presumeably flashes if set off. The moment has passed when I needed it (in the work place!) but it was re-assuring. Bugger the image thing.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:14 AM

I don't think I could take that marker away from a determined woman any easier than I could from an 11-year-old boy.

I think the determined part is more important than the weapon part; you have to have the will to resist. Armed or not. No matter which of the sexes you are.

Kneeing in the groin will disable tha bad guy & even KO him, but it's very difficult; you must get him right in the eggs, and men have learrned by experience to be very crotch-protective. Only try it if you've got a clear shot.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 12:32 AM

Clint - If you are a woman, the chance of being over-powered and having the weapon taken from you and used against you is much greater.

Kat - Kneeing them in the groin is not a great idea. Apparently it doesn't disable and only makes them madder.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 12:14 AM

Something odd about the logic here.

Why is it I wouldn't be able to take a magic marker away from an 11-year old without getting seriously marked but a bad guy could take a weapon -- a stick, a knife -- away from *me* and use it on me without getting seriously hurt?

Look, a weapon is not a defense, but a weapon with the skill nd determination to use it is. And it's true no weapon or training will guarantee a victory, but they can improve your chances. That's why weapons are around.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:30 PM

A couple of more: if grabbed from behind, drop straight down as quickly as possible instead of struggling, they don't expect that.

If grabbed from in front with their hands on your shoulders, bend your arms at the elbows, reach back with your hands and grab their fingers; peel them up and off of you as much and as quickly as you can, then run, or, if you can't, stomp on their instep, knee them in the groin, whatever is available and always USE your voice as much and as loudly as possible.

Another wonderful thing which helped me to feel safe was a year long tai chi class. My daughter took it, too. She was only about 13 or so. The movements become so automatic. She didn't realise her own strength intil one day a boy in school ran by her locker and swatted her on the back. Without thought, she automatically pivotted in a tai chi manuevre with her arm a certain way which connected with him and sent him into the lockers across the hall. She felt a little badly, but it also felt good to know that she could take care of herself if need be. Our teacher was great in that he taught it more as a moving meditation than for self-defence, BUT he always let us now how it could also be used for the latter.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:26 PM

That was from me--have no idea how that cookie fell off.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:24 PM

Pauline--

A couple of suggestions

1)   Push HARD for good lighting along this trail. I'm sure you're not the first to have had a problem on it. Get a petition signed by as many women (and men) as you can find. If this trail is by some chance under the jurisdiction of the complex where you live, point out to them the possibility of legal exposure. If you have no luck, try contacting your county safety officers and if still no luck, try Congressmen, Senators. Go as high as as you have to. Be a squeaky wheel.

2) In the meantime, is there another route you can take?

3) If you feel anybody touch you on the trail when you weren't expecting it, run--towards a door or a light, yelling all the way.

4) If you still have to walk home from the bus stop after dark, see if you can arrange to have someone meet you at the bus stop so you can walk home together.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:23 PM

Pauline, the key is knowing how AND, most importantly, DOING so. The will must be there, especially when you realize that these techniques can cripple (perhaps for life) or even kill someone.

But attackers don't care if they injure or kill you, and you can return the favor.

Also, try out the techniques with a friend (NOT at full power!) so that you know how they work.

Another thing is to rip your fingernails across the guy's forehead -- very rich in nonlethal blood vessels, which can do a nice job of blinding him with his own blood. You do need reasonably long fingernails for that, though.

There are other things that can be done as well -- like reaching back, grabbing a handful of hair, quickly bending at the waist and throwing the assailant over your head. But these take much practice and, hopefully, proper instruction.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Pauline L
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM

Thanks again to everyone for good advice and moral support. A special big thank you to Rapaire for your detailed instructions on how to fight in my situation.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST,kat coming through the back door
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM

Pauline, as soon as I can get in through the front door, I will PM you. Just wanted to let you know.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:45 PM

Pauline:

Thanks for your willingness to come forward with this unhappy, outrageous event. It happens to a lot of folk, and it happens to big strong men, too.

Although it is not always possible, walking with or near other people is a form of defense as well.

In 1982 there was a broadcast, as a work of art, from the Edinboro Festival, of a solitary woman's impressions: "Steps behind me, steps getting closer...steps catching up, the WOMAN behind me - the relief ... steps behind me, steps getting close, the MAN behind me - the attack."
Made an impression on me.
For what it's worth, if I'm on the street in the evening and there is a single woman also on the street, I also try to either keep my distance, make non-stealthy type noise, or get quickly ahead of her if I can do that without being a source of alarm.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:59 PM

Pauline - I never meant to imply that you didn't know how to take of yourself. It seemed like a good opportunity to let people know what to do when if attacked. Rapaire gave some really good advice.

Anyhow, keep talking. Each day you will feel less fearful, especially if you do something pro-active.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:51 PM

" Never fight a knife, broken bottle,"

Ya want an example how much damage a hand weapon like that can do to ya? This can actually be kinda fun...

Find an 11 year old kid (Any adult can beat an 11 year old right? No matter WHAT weapon they have eh??? HA!) Put on some old clothes you don't care about any more and give the 11 year old a BIG magic marker with the cap off... Tell them to attack you with it until you can subdue them and get the marker away from them....

Then stand back and look at yourself in a mirror... everywhere there's a magic marker stain, assume a gash deep enough that you'd need stitches... Take note if any cross any major arteries... those tend to be KILL shots...

Now try it with a 15 year old... note how MESSED up you are when all's said and done...

Now if you feel real brave, try it with an adult...

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM

I remember the instructor's admonition: If you have the guy writhing on the ground, don't stop to kick him in the head, as is one's natural inclination- JUST GET OUT OF THERE!

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

You should have been taught that an attack can come from any direction (even below, by having your ankles grabbed).

There are several things you can do if assaulted from behind, depending upon the circumstances.

For instance, if grabbed from behind (arms over your arms) you can thrust your buttocks back to gain some room while stomping -- HARD! -- on the instep. Then turn and assault the eyes by ramming the butt of your palm into the chin (HARD!) while clutching at the eyes (slide up the face to get under glasses).

If you are put into a choke hold, quickly turn your face right or left -- this will help stop your throat from being crushed or your air cut off. This for an "arm hold," not a hand choking and works from front or back. Turn into the crook of the assailant's elbow.

Never fight a knife, gun, broken bottle, etc. unless you are a) absolutely certain there is no other choice and that the chance of death or injury exceeds the certainty, and b) you are reasonably certain that you can hurt the assailant before the assailant hurts you -- and that the damage you do will be greater than whatever he can do and, c) you know what you're doing. Luck is fine, but it runs good AND bad.

You are a weapon. Use it when you have to.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:05 AM

There was another thread on this subject a while ago.... in the Headbutting thread. The good advice starts around about 14th May postings.

Keep talking about it. You are in shock and you need to deal with it or it will keep coming back to you when you really don't need it to.

That's one of the beauties of this place... you can always talk to us - it may take a while to answer though!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:03 AM

Pauline,
    I know how you feel. In the last two years that Patricia and I lived in Chicago we had, between, been mugged six times. it's one of the reasons that we left. It will dominate your thoughts for a while, but don't let it dominate them for long. The best way to get past it is to not dwell on it.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:41 AM

I must admit that I was also surprised to read that you were taught that attacks rarely come from behind. That is nonsense. If I were foolhardy enough to assault any of the women,whom I have trained with, from behind, I would very quickly regret my mistake!

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 01:08 AM

"Please don't imply that I should have known how to take care of myself"

No such implication was intended... I suggest self-defence classes now as a way to help you feel better about yourself now... and to help you get through that fear...

"I was taught that people seldom get attacked from behind"
Then you were taught poorly... A good teach would have told you that an attack can come from anywhere...

"my saving grace was sheer luck."
A good friend of mine says, "I'd rather be lucky than good", but another says, "I'd never trade skill for luck" heh

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 12:45 AM

I was assaulted many years ago in a park I was working in. I wasn't in uniform at the time, and I screamed my head off. There were some people nearby (beyond some bleachers) who decided it must be a joke. That was unhelpful and I was quite traumatized. When he was spotted a couple of times more in the park my boss took matters into his own hands, and the next time his presence was reported, he followed him, flagged down a cop, and the guy was arrested. He was 14-years-old. Buy the time he was arrested he had gone from simple assault (grabbing and struggling and verbally threatening a weapon but not showing it) to actually using a weapon and committing sexual assault.

It took a long time to get over it, and chances are he was not punished in any way that took him off of the streets or actually got him any help.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Pauline L
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 12:34 AM

Thanks, everyone, for your support.

I must point out that muscles, weapons, and self defense training don't always work, as some of the people who have written on this thread know from personal experience. Being a victim was bad enough. Please don't imply that I should have known how to take care of myself. I have taken several self defense courses. That's why I screamed a lot. However, I was taught that people seldom get attacked from behind and I wasn't trained for it. I tried to counterattack by pushing my elbows behind me. Frankly, I believe that my saving grace was sheer luck.

The legacy of this event is living with fear. I spoke to a doctor about my experience but he wasn't particularly sympathetic or supportive. I'm glad I have friends on Mudcat and elsewhere who have been supportive. Thanks also for the suggestions on victims' support organizations. I'm sure the albums will help a lot, too.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 12:24 AM

Clinton is right when he says, "most studies show that the majority of weapons carried for 'self-defence' wind up being used against the person they were supposed to defend... "

That goes for any weapon, even bear spray.

Learn to walk with confidence. Always know who is behind you. Cross to the other side of the street if a stranger is appoaching and the streets are empty. Carry your keys in a fist with the jagged edge out. If attacked, scream and go for the eyes. When they put their hands up to protect their eyes, run. Keep screaming!

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 10:58 PM

Over the years I've been mugged several times; only one produced injuries. My best advice is fight if you can but yell your head off all the while.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 10:01 PM

If I am attacked I will defend myself. If my wife is attacked and I am with her I will defend her -- after she has beaten the shit out of the attacker.

"It's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six." But you may have other opinions, and I respect those and will support whatever you decide to do.

But I don't think that letting the bad guys win is the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:57 PM

BTW I wrestled for seven years, coached/officiatd the sport for seven more, and professionally taught self defense classes. The child sustained no injuries.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:50 PM

I was attacked from the backside with no warning, two months ago, in a public setting at 9:15 a.m.

I was hit once, then powerfully hit a second time; I used self-defence after the second blow and was attacked a third time and then used a non-violent self defence.

The perpertrator was a 16yo male, footballer, with shaved head, creased white t-shirt, kahkis, and Nike shoes.

Because I am an adult 50+ yo and the assailant was a minor child I am being investigated by three different sets of authorities.

Three doctors, three lawyers later, yes counseling with other than friends and family might be a good idea.

Only in America would the victum become the suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:15 PM

Every coin has two sides... every good knife cuts both ways...

Yin... yang...

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

Is the reverse true? One cannot have good without evil? It may be true but I've never understood either one.

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 08:49 PM

One cannot have evil without good....

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 08:37 PM

I wish there was a magic wand to remove all the evil from the world.

I'm sending you positive vibrations.

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: On being mugged
From: Janie
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 08:18 PM

(((((((((((HUG)))))))))))))).

Keep talking to people about it--about your thoughts and feelings. Process the grief and anger and fear, out loud and in person with people who will listen and validate, and not try to fix it for you.

Another ((((((((((((((((((((((((HUG))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Janie