BS: Noted without comment

Subject: BS: Noted without comment
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:30 PM

LONDON (Reuters) - The word "fail" should be banned from use in British classrooms and replaced with the phrase "deferred success" to avoid demoralizing pupils, a group of teachers has proposed.

Members of the Professional Association of Teachers (PAT) argue that telling pupils they have failed can put them off learning for life.

A spokesman for the group said it wanted to avoid labeling children. "We recognize that children do not necessarily achieve success first time," he said.

"But I recognize that we can't just strike a word from the dictionary," he said.

The PAT said it would debate the proposal at a conference next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:32 PM

Labels can be quite distorting, it's true. But calling a failure a "deferred success" is really silly. Calling it an opportunity to learn a lesosn, in order to have a success next time, makes a lot more sense.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:44 PM

What's wrong with "needs improvement"? Or maybe even better... "needs assistance".

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:49 PM

Problem is that in the adult world we come across these words being used for real. We might fail to get a particular job, or to meet a deadline. Relationships fail. I cannot believe that sheltering children from the harsh realities of life can help them. We all have to learn what it is to lose at some time or another.

Maybe if 'fail' was not used in such a critical sense, to beat the recipient about the head, but to try and help that person understand why they did not succeed and to accept that they were trying something that was not right for them, or to assist them in trying to find another way to reach an objective, would be more healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Kaleea
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:18 PM

It used to be that in the first few grades, there was only "S"-satisfactory, or "U"-unsatisfactory for the exact purpose of non-labeling, better self esteem. Everyone on the planet needs improvement in some areas.
   The biggest factor, is that many parents are too wrapped up in their own troubles to deal with the kids, & confuse parenting with schoolin'-do little or nothing at home & expect the school to deal with the kids. Thus, TV shows like Nanny 911 & such, "Jay walking" with Jay Letterman & such. It all starts in the cradle!

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:40 PM

If you don't get a particular job, do you say you have "failed"? I would tend to say that I didn't get that particular job. I also tend to say, about relationships, that they "didn't work out". I don't use the word "fail" in relation to my own life too much, precisely because I expect that I will not give up. So in my own life, I consider that I simply have not succeeded yet. I don't see any reason why it should be different for children.

There were quite a few times while my son was growing up, when he felt like giving up because he wasn't experiencing success as quickly as he wanted to. I used to tell him, "just because you haven't succeeded yet, doesn't mean you have failed... it just means that you haven't succeeded yet." That helped him a lot, because he needed to see it from that angle.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 12:34 AM

In my experience fail means bad teaching

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 01:18 AM

I "fail" to see the point of this! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 01:38 AM

So if you can't get it up do you say you have a "Deferred Boner?"

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 01:40 AM

In NSW primary schools (up to 12 yrs old) they now have stages - Beginning, Developing, Consolidating, Achieving, and Working Beyond.

No passing or failing. It seems to work well.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:38 AM

" a group of teachers has proposed."

What a bunch of deluded pussies! Someone needs to have a good looks at "Bill Gate's Rules For Children"

        RULE 1: Life is not fair - get used to it.

        RULE 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

        RULE 3: You will NOT make 50 thousand dollars a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone, until you earn both.

        RULE 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure.

        RULE 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping - they called it opportunity.

        RULE 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

        RULE 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

        RULE 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not.
In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

        RULE 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

        RULE 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

        RULE 11: Be nice to the nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

"In my experience fail means bad teaching"
Sometimes... sometimes it just means the kid is stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Shakey
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:54 AM

Oh Clinton I hope you've got a hard hat. If not do you want to borrow mine?

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: GUEST,G
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 06:56 AM

Cool Clinton, and thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:02 AM

I normally think Clinton talks sense, but this time you have surpassed yourself. Especially like the 'be kind to nerds, in real life you'll probably end up working for one.'

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:17 AM

The basis of such initiatives is a wrong understanding of the 'labeling effect' taught at the universities in the 60s, 70s and 80s. I bet you these people have got their education then.

Change a label and the bad connotation will stick to the new label within weeks whatever the good ideas for the change have been. Prejudices or 'labeling' do not go away with changing labels.

During my lifetime the official word for those who get government money to be able to live has been changed twice (and if I go a bit further back it has been changed three times). Very quickly, the social stigma got stuck to the new word. "Poor-help" became "welfare" then "social help" and is now "help to life support" or even "Hartz IV" (named after a manager). If the content doesn't change changing the container or the label on it never helps for long.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:21 AM

Right on Clinton.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:21 AM

"In my experience fail means bad teaching"
Sometimes... sometimes it just means the kid is stupid...

or a clever kid has just not done enough.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:28 AM

So why is failure considered to be the end point? What law says that if you've failed once you have to give up? This is the way a word is interpreted, not what it means.

However, for once I agree with Clinton and Bill Gates.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:32 AM

Words have a deferred success with me...
We pay for them from our tax money... Cut such wastrels "dead" - or defer their salaries for the next life.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:32 AM

Was it George Carlin who said, "Kids are like any other group of people... very few winners at the top... whole lotta losers at the bottom."

In accordance to Rule #1 Dennis Leary said "Life sucks, get a f-king helmet!" Put that up in glow-in-the-dark letters over the bed of your "minimally exceptional" kid who is enjoying the fruits of his "deferred success" because he "just hasn't succeeded yet"... Might help give him a little perspective on the Real World...

Check your dictionary Especially #1, 2 and 3...

fail
v. failed, fail·ing, fails
v. intr.

   1. To prove deficient or lacking; perform ineffectively or inadequately: failed to fulfill their promises; failed in their attempt to reach the summit.
   2. To be unsuccessful: an experiment that failed.
   3. To receive an academic grade below the acceptable minimum.
   4. To prove insufficient in quantity or duration; give out: The water supply failed during the drought.
   5. To decline, as in strength or effectiveness: The patient's heart began to fail.
   6. To cease functioning properly: The engine failed.
   7. To give way or be made otherwise useless as a result of excessive strain: The rusted girders failed and caused the bridge to collapse.
   8. To become bankrupt or insolvent: Their business failed during the last recession.

Provided your success wasn't deferred when you learned to read

"do not necessarily achieve success first time"
Succeed... that's the word this blatherskite is looking for... you don't 'achieve success'... you succeed... Or you fail... Just cause you change the language, doesn't mean you change the thing... 'Post Traumatic Stress Disorder' still walks. swims and quacks like 'Shell Shock'... And when they called it Shell Shock, a lot of the guys who needed it got good help dealing with it...

These are the same kind of self-important, over-educated, under-intelligent people that want to call a hurricane a "vertical, circular wind disturbance", cause they THINK it makes them sound like they know what they're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:36 AM

So they haven't failed to find WMD at all. Success is just around the corner.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Shakey
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:37 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 07:57 AM

The big problem in schools in England (the Scots have their own independent systems), is that everything is ruled by accountants, whether Government or local.
The cash which goes to a school is decided by accountants, not teachers. A lot of the cash given is based on "bums on seats" i.e. the number of children attending. This is, in turn, influenced by the "Performance" of the school which is decided by "League Tables".
If you have league tables, there has to be a means for placing the "winners".
A number of years back the government of the day introduced "Standard Assessment Tests", which were supposed to measure what stage of development the children had reached. The levels were based on an expected "average" level for an age group. They were supposed to help teachers to decide which pupils needed more help to reach the expected level.
The government "accountants" then decided to publish these test results, and so created the league tables so that parents try to move their kids to the schools with higher marks. These schools then get more cash and the lower schools are starved of money, resources and become more likely to "fail".
Schools and pupils now are not alowed to have children who perform to the expected average. Kids must all get higher than "average" no matter how clever or stupid they might be. As a result they are being force fed the "test passing" from an early age. The less able are not given the time they need to learn when they are ready to do so. As a result they do not learn anything, as the teacher is not allowed to backtrack, because the class has to cover X, Y, and Z, before some arbitrary deadline. The result is that a number of children know nothing but "how to fail" as they are always a number of steps behind where the rest of the class are, with no way to catch up.
Quite frankly the system is a total shambles, and is dragging our education system into a mire of disaffection and disruption.
Rant over.
The kids should be given a framework which allows them to succeed, not the current one which is based on unrealistic test scores, which automatically mean that a section will know nothing but failure for the whole of their school life.
As has been said - tinkering with labels does nothing to help. It just brings the tinkerers into public ridicule.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 08:05 AM

When I ride on a train and I put my ticket in the little machine as I'm leaving the station, the display blinks "Ticket Captured".
One day I'm gonna kick the crap out of one of those machines.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:19 AM

Nicely put, Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: GUEST,The Truth of Martin Gibson
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM

Very good Clinton.

The politically correct should take what Clinton wrote and stick it up their rosy red rectums.

Failure is a part of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

hope the PC version of failed doesn't spread...

The jet turbine fuel line was replaced with a spare part labled: deferred success.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:17 PM

You're right Clinton "sometimes it just means the kid is stupid... "

But bad teaching seems to be the norm. And avoiding the use of the word failed could be just another way of exonerating the teacher who was responsible for the student's progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:33 PM

Bill Gates is the ultimate failure. The same kind of failure that Mr. Potter was, and George Bailey was not.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:44 PM

Sometimes failure can be a positive experience.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

But don't count on it!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:47 PM

"Sometimes failure can be a positive experience."

If you do it properly and don't have a 'Curling Mom' sweeping the ice in front of you

"Bill Gates is the ultimate failure"
That might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard... Go ahead... keep posting and see if you can out-do yourself...

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:50 PM

That might be the stupidest thing I've ever heard

Ask me if I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Homeless
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:14 PM

Kids must all get higher than "average"
Does anyone else see the fallacy in this?

And Wolfgang is right - change the name, and it quickly gains the meaning. Then someone just wants to change it again. Just ask the negroes, coloreds, blacks, African-Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:22 PM

It's not the name that counts, it's the attitude. If the changing of the name is simply PC and PR then it's of no use at all, but if it's indicative of a change in attitude then that is significant and probably a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: number 6
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:23 PM

" If you do it properly and don't have a 'Curling Mom' sweeping the ice in front of you"

That's why I said 'sometimes'.

I don't beleive there is a 'proper' way to fail .. if you fail, well ya failed. Pick yerself up, look at why you failed, don't blame anyone else, beleive in yourself and get on with it.


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:25 PM

You don't have to use a name at all. All you have to do is indicate what is needed if the student doesn't perform up to expectations. The idea that there needs to be a label is a fallacy.

And also the idea that a child who has below average intelligence (the ones labeled in this thread as "stoopid"), even though he/she has performed at his/her maximum ability, has failed, is also a fallacy.

Schools exist to help children learn things they need to know. They don't exist for the purpose of creating artificial designations of "winners" and "losers", and determining who fits into which category.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:33 PM

I went to high school with Molly Picoun's niece. She bore an amazing resemblance to her famous aunt. But she couldn't act. Someone had told her at some time to face the audience and say her lines good and loud, and that was what she did. Watching her do "Mame" or "The Chalk Garden" was painful.
But she was cast in a vast assortment of plays and musicals because of her famous aunt.
In short, she succeeded with no effort and no ability. She didn't get into Carnegie Mellon, but she did go to a good college as a theater major.
She didn't start serously failing as an actress until she started making the rounds of auditions.
Sometimes people who have no business succeeding do. Sometimes success has nothing to do with effort or ability. Sometimes failure is, indeed, a learning experience. It's a rotten shame Molly Picoun's niece didn't fail sooner and more often.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: LadyJean
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:36 PM

Re Average,
I once took a test to see if I was worthy of employment at Pier 1 imports.
They asked me how many fist fights I had been in, Above Average, Average, or Below Average.
Average for who? The average number of fist fights for a lady past 30 is 0. There is no below 0. I didn't get the job. But not because of the fist fights.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:05 AM

Does Molly Picoun's niece think it's a rotten shame? Because she really is the only one in a position to judge. Maybe the experiences she had in college as a theater major will help / has helped her in some other area of endeavor in which has has more ability. Maybe majoring in theater is one of the best things that ever happened to her, regardless of what else she ever does with herself. Maybe if she hadn't had that extra help getting into and through that school with that major, she would never have had that experience, and maybe she is grateful for it, even if she never succeeds on the stage. Who knows? And why should we judge?

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 01:03 PM

Just a rider to Clinton's wee diatribe. Life does NOT suck, but you should have a helmet anyway in case it tries to. Tough situations can suck, but being ready for them and being a bit tougher than the situation is probably the best remedy for "suckiness". Friction hurts, space is infinite, light hurts your eyes, fire burns your toes, people can be mean-spirited or downright stupid, gravity sucks, but intelligence and effort pay off, if applied consistently...and life...well, life is beautiful. :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

If the conventions (And EVERYHTING has conventions...) says you need to collect 37 purple gorillas to move on to the next 'stage'... regardless of whatever your excuses are, if you do not collect all 37, then you fail... plain and simple...

Can we expect everyone to function at thet same level? Just look at some of the things said in this thread.. obviously not... See above re" "whole lotta winners at the top... whole lotta loosers at the bottom" and there's nothing artificial about those designations at all... ask the food chain...

"Friction hurts"
Get more lube!

"gravity sucks"
Sure beats the hell outa the alternative! LOL

" I don't beleive there is a 'proper' way to fail..."
I'm reminded of the line... "This isn't flying! It's falling with style!" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 01:52 PM

Where would you place bacteria in the food chain, Clinton? All of those kinds of designations are artificial and made up by people who want to control other people. The losers are the ones who actually think they're better than others just because of some stupid artificial designations made up by people with the emotional maturity of 13-year-olds.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 01:59 PM

Hey, don't knock bacteria, it's the only culture some people have.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:01 PM

I'm not knocking bacteria. Bacteria are some of the most successful of all organisms.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

Whoops , sorry here i go again posting with the wrong name, the bacteria quip was mine.

I've just installed a fresh PC so things are a bit unsettled at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM

"designations are artificial"

There are smart and dumb people... just like there are pretty and ugly people... I suspect the largest slice-of-the-pie is somewhere under the 'average' of all such designations... That's not a slight... it's just an observation...

Not all the coins in the fountain are shiney nor can they all be exchanged for the same number of jelly-babies...

It's like the song says...

It's not just what you're born with (lucky for most)
It's what you do with what you've got

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:10 PM

Some "dumb" people can be considered much more successful than some people who are extremely intelligent. Some people who are "dumb" in some areas of endeavor are geniuses in others. It all depends on how you define success and intelligence. It's all completely arbitrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 03:55 PM

" It all depends on how you define success and intelligence."

I said that already... note above re: Conventions... This article is about the conventions of the educational system... And within those conventions, FAIL is a very serious concept... and a very necessary one as well...

"Some people who are "dumb" in some areas of endeavor are geniuses in others."

I said that already too... Not all the coins in the fountain are shiney nor can they all be exchanged for the same number of jelly-babies...

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:01 PM

English, man. Speak English.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:04 PM

But reporting on a students academic progress in relation to their peer group is not arbitrary at all. The criteria is set. The assessment is directly referenced to the criteria. What is in question is how to report the performance to the student and to the parents in a truthful but tactful manner.

I still think needs improvement, has not met grade level expectations, below average, etc. are all adequate. 'Fail' is too final and smacks of an inability to succeed at anything. "Deferred success" sounds like a group of non-teachers trying to solve a problem by being PC.

What is necessary is that the school report on a student's progress,and how the school will help the student achieve and indicate if there will be additional support required. It should also indicate what parents can do at home to improve learning.

Try telling parents of young children that their little darling has failed and you will soon see that the problem is communication. It is easier to stomach when you say the child has not yet met grade level expectations.   

Just because adults live in a tough world, doesn't mean that young children have to bear the consequences. Given time and/or modified instructional methods and support the failure can be turned into success. Just because a child 'fails' reading in grade 1, doesn't mean that he won't be able to read in grade 2.

Lets face it, 'fail' really means that the system has failed to provide what the child needs in a classroom setting. This isn't necessarily the fault of the teacher. There are many, many variables.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

I agree with your 22 Jul 05 - 04:04 PM post, dianavan. It is a teacher's responsibility to give children tools to overcome obstacles. The idea is to focus on the tools and how the student can use them to achieve succes... not to focus the obstacle and the fact that the student has not yet overcome it.

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 02:59 AM

When teachers are given children who haven't even been given a basic grounding in manners at home, who quite often cannot speak English having been brought up in a household where it is not the parents first language, children who do not know the meaning of the word NO, and children who have spent most of their first few years of live stuck in front of a TV to keep them quiet. WHAT THE F**K is she supposed to do??

However apart fom that I am pissed off with all the mealy mouthed twisting of the English language that goes on, just to avoid calling a spade a spade. People don't get 'let go' they get fired, companies don't 'downsize', they make staff redundand. It's all spin, everybody seems to speak in estate agent [realtor] language. You can't fight a war without somebody getting killed, and that is KILLED, not 'collateral damage'
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Noted without comment
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:33 AM

"It's all spin"

'Zactly! From me to CarolC (And any other two extremes you wanna quote) It's ALL spin... the difference is, I KNOW it's spin...