In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:41 AM

Shambles, you have mis-stated Joe's description of current reality, and then suggested a debate that is founded on the non-reality that your position and Joe's are mutually exclusive-- as if there is a battle necessary.

In fact there is no battle, nor need there be. People are free here to post whatever and however they wish, and there is nothing preventing that. As each post passes into the memory of the database Max maintains here-- the database of threads and posts-- it sometimes undergoes changes to take what was evanescent, transitory, and store it as a functional resource.

In other words, what happens in the "NOW" is based on free choice, but as posts pass from "now" into "The Past," there is some organizing applied so that as people come looking for things, they can be found with some degree of logic and clarity.

Your statement of Joe's position makes him out to be a demigod. He's not-- he's a man who's been entrusted with a job to do, and he does it like a human being, warts and all. To treat him as if he's the man who singlehandedly and capriciously forced you into PELs is not only wrong, it's inaccurate.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:43 AM

Yes, Roger - Joe's view is most likely the majority view. More importantly - it is Max's view.

Is it really Max's view?

I think the majority of us see Mudcat as primarily a place that is oriented toward the reader, rather than toward the person who furnishes information. As such, Mudcat should make the priorities of the readers its primary consideration.

Is this - in fact - now the majority view?

How would you, me, Max or Joe - know this?

Shall we have a poll to establish what the majority view now is? If such a thing as the majority view is now really thought to still be important.........

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:50 AM

they know this because the number of readers outweighs the number of posters. They know this because of the number of searches that occur. They know this because of the number of people who have said they came for the lyrics.

but in the long run - it doesn't matter - because it *is* Max's view and that's the way he wants it to run.

Roger - each and every volunteer with editing abilities is essentially a representative of Max. Do you honestly think he would allow them to continue to so represent him if they weren't performing within the guidelines he has set? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:01 AM

Shambles, you have mis-stated Joe's description of current reality, and then suggested a debate that is founded on the non-reality that your position and Joe's are mutually exclusive-- as if there is a battle necessary.

Susan - I have mis-stated nothing. I have copied Joe's views in full - just as he stated them. Joe has claimed this 'priority' to our forum's readers was the majority view. The question is simply if the need Joe sees now for this unequal treatment is - in fact the majority view?

The routine imposition of thread tile changes upon the originator - that we have seem evidenced here - springs directly from Joe's concept that priority should now be given to our forum's readers - one that he claims to be a view supported by the majority.

I suggest that the majority of posters would still wish to be respected and treated equally - whether they are posting or reading.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:06 AM

Do you honestly think he would allow them to continue to so represent him if they weren't performing within the guidelines he has set? I doubt it.

MMario - The whole crediblty of our forum hinges on the answer to that question. One on which the jury is currently out on.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:14 AM

I again protest the use of the word "routine" - there does not seem to be enough evidence that thread title changes occur as "routine" in any sense of the word.

BTW - it is *NOT* particularly "Joe's concept", he merely is the one that stated it.

Any title or post can be changed - how it this "unequal treatment"? There is a concerted effort to make changes only when they will aide in searces or clarify issues. Yes, personal judgement is used. But all editorial changes are subject to review by the owner of the site and can be reversed if he finds against them. Since he holds the right to change, delete, edit ANY content on his private pages (which includes the entire forum) this is his privilige.


Furthermore - the *desire* to be respected does not necessarily lead to respect. Respect, as the old saying goes, has to be earned.

Whether or not it is true - you give every indication to those reading you that you have deliberatly taken offense at minor editorial changes and blown them into a crusade. Reading over these threads my impression is not that YOU have been mistreated - but rather you are doing your best to cast aspersions on Joe and the clones, stir up dissension and basically cause trouble.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:44 AM

This is what I asked in the first post. This was before the title of this thread was subject to yet further imposition and the attempt made to justify what was a deliberate and personally motivated imposition on my contribution - by a fellow poster.

Can the wishes of the origination be respected and any change to a thread's title only be undertaken with their knowledge and permission?

Thank you.

MMario - and you accuse (amongst other things) that I have deliberatly taken offense at minor editorial changes and blown them into a crusade.

I totally agree with what another long-term poster has posted earlier in this thread.

The thread title should NEVER be changed without the consent of the originator.

NEVER means just that. Adopting this suggestion - saves all of us from making or being the victim of any needlesss judgements.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 10:46 AM

But Max disagress.

and you misqouted me. the original was:

Whether or not it is true - you give every indication to those reading you that you have deliberatly taken offense at minor editorial changes and blown them into a crusade

very different from what you have quoted

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 11:03 AM

given that the subject had already been discussed - so that you were essentially beating a dead horse -that opening "oh-so-civil" request comes across as rather snide and self-serving.

the title of this thread was subject to yet further imposition and the attempt made to justify what was a deliberate and personally motivated imposition on my contribution - by a fellow poster

well - from my point of view the title change was just what Joe says it was - a clarification of a very vague thread title.

and you still have not acknowledged that the "fellow poster" is the appointed designee of the site owner, operating under the approval of the site owner, performing a job the site owner has requested him to do and following guidelines given him by the site owner.

whether or not you like the fact, or whether or not you respect the fact - the fact remains. Joe and the clones operate with the support and consent of the site owner.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:13 PM

Bert says

The thread title should NEVER be changed without the consent of the originator.

MMarios says

But Max disagress.

Does he? Where is this stated - or is it your assumption that Max will automatically agree with all of Joe Offer's or any other volunteers personal views or actions?

And MMario - also says.

well - from my point of view the title change was just what Joe says it was - a clarification of a very vague thread title.

Your support for Joe is as notable as it is damaging in this instance. But Bert's sensible view would not have prevented the second imposed change from taking place - just from any conflict or bad feeling resulting from the change being imposed upon the originator without their knowledge or permission. The originator - who (in this case) would have readily agreed to any proposed change. Had they been first asked.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:14 PM

Actually the title of this thread IS much clearer than it was originally. Even you can stand on occasional improvement. (Hard to believe, sure).

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:35 PM

If Max disagreed with the policy I'm sure the policy would be changed.


sensible view would not have prevented the second imposed change from taking place - just from any conflict or bad feeling resulting from the change being imposed upon the originator without their knowledge or permission. The originator - who (in this case) would have readily agreed to any proposed change. Had they been first asked

So you are saying your ONLY objection is that you weren't asked first?
That makes this whole thread even MORE senseless then at first glance.

YOu remind me of the person invited to dinner who makes a fuss because they are allergic to the entree- yet never informed the person hosting the dinner they had the allergy until they were served.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:40 PM

MMario says

I again protest the use of the word "routine" - there does not seem to be enough evidence that thread title changes occur as "routine" in any sense of the word.

From my position there is far too much evidence that imposition is undertaken - as a matter of routine - too often on my posts alone.

MMario - will you accept that for a fellow poster to impose any change upon another's contribution (for whatever reason) without their knowledge or permission - on our forum - should be always thought to a major thing. Something not to be done on a regular basis or a matter of routine but as rarely as possible and to handled as fairly and sensitively as can be managed?

Perhaps if this can finally be recognised - a more sensitive approach is needed than just repeating that whichever anonymous volunteers was responisible - was just following Max's guidelines?

Perhaps the sensitive nature of such imposition can be finally recognised (by those who are unlikely to ever be subject to it)? And if always seeking the originator's permission is thought too cumbersome - perhaps to ensure that such action is always seen to have met with Max's approval - any volunteer fellow poster comtemplating such imposition - always obtains Max's approval first?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:51 PM

Can the wishes of the origination be respected and any change to a thread's title only be undertaken with their knowledge and permission?

Thank you.

MMarios now says So you are saying your ONLY objection is that you weren't asked first?

It is difficult to see what exactly you are arguing with me about - if you did not understand this. Yes IMPOSITION is the main concern - there often may be very good reasons why a thread title may need clarifing - if so - in most cases the originator would readily agree to any proposed change.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:54 PM

you keep adding on those modifiers and conditions. Yes - your basic premise is true, fair, and to be desired - but like a pork barrel politician you can't leave it there.

"fellow poster" when describing a volunteer doing editing duties is not , and as has been explained to you, should not be considered an accurate description.

If YOu and a surgeon are both members of a country club you wouldn't normally describe that surgeon while operating as a "fellow country club memeber"


The procedure as you describe it would prevent any change being made on any anonymous contribution, spammer , etc. Max has a life. Part of the reason there are clones in the first place is to provide faster, better response time and more coverage.

And you have yet show that "routine" applies.

BTW - How many times have you qouted me, or Joe, or other fellow posters out of context? I daresay it would be a routine procedure for you even using my definition of routine. I can think of at least seven or eight people you have done it to without even having to strain.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 01:56 PM

MMario - will you accept that for a fellow poster to impose any change upon another's contribution (for whatever reason) without their knowledge or permission - on our forum - should be always thought to a major thing.

I would accept that it could conceivably be a major thing, but in most cases is not.


Perhaps if this can finally be recognised - a more sensitive approach is needed than just repeating that whichever anonymous volunteers was responisible - was just following Max's guidelines?

Practically speaking, there is such a thing as over-sensitivity, a disproportionate reaction to stimuli which do not actually constitute an important impact. These minor judgement calls on the part of forum volunteers have by and large improved the forum, and not lessened anyone's ability to communicate. It does require some slight degree of flexibility, though, which is not evident in this instance.

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:51 PM

Shambles- All you do is fucking moan, why dont you do something usefull with your spare time?
[work in animal shelter, homeless place, kids home, or charity shop, [or wahtever], obviously you got too much time to fill, .

you wont anser me, buit i;m not bothered.

you are a real moany, i dont know were you live, but if im ever in your area, i definetley wont go to your folk session, or folk club [your too moany].

you always complain about mudcat, but, i reckon that even if mudcat could give you words and cords to any folk song, and free cd downloads of any folk cd you choosw, you still would moan!

a while ago, [couple of years?], i started a thread ="Are you happy with Mudcat?"
about 93 percent said YES,!

and= you keep saying =QOUTE= "this is our forum".
It isn't!,it is MAx;s forum, if you dont like them, use another site, or set one up, simple as that!


I've had tyhreads deleted, [they were drunken bullshit threads, that made no sense to anyone!]
i had pms from joe and jeff= "hi john, i delted your tyhread, as it was a total load of crap, and made no sense wahtso ever"
so wahts wrong with that then?

just shut up.

john

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 04:41 AM

"fellow poster" when describing a volunteer doing editing duties is not , and as has been explained to you, should not be considered an accurate description.

That is your opinion - which you are very welcome to explain.

However, some of our volunteer fellow posters are quite insistent on their rights. Their right to impose their personal judgement upon their fellow posters - (whilst claiming to be impartial) - whilst at the same time - declaring their right to be entitled to openly express their personal opinions (and sometimes personal abuse). To be a fellow poster - appears to be important to some of them.

If YOu and a surgeon are both members of a country club you wouldn't normally describe that surgeon while operating as a "fellow country club memeber"

There are many that clues that let you know when a surgeon is undertaking their duties and when you need to respect their knowledge and skill in that field. If they jumped over the tennis court nets and decided to open you up with a scalpel - you may decide that they may be geting a little confused and unable to tell the difference.

If our volunteer fellow posters - just want to conventionally moderate on our forum - I will be quite happy to describe them as moderators. As they insist on doing both (and some remain anonymous) the term - volunteer fellow poster - perfectly describes this role and at he same time - demonstrates the roles main weakness.

For how can any lesser poster ever be expected to know the difference?

Perhaps if Joe Offer will forsake his ability to post his personal opinions on our forum and concentrate all his Mudcat time moderating -and confine his contributions to inserted brown editing comments - then there will be no confusion and no need for any other volunteer fellow posters?

Even better - perhaps all our volunteer fellow posters will all just volunteer to return to post on the same basis as their fellow posters - or perhaps Max can ensure that they do?

There are reasons why things are as they are currently. However, if our volunteer fellow posters are given a choice now - for the future of our forum - I hope they will at least chose one or the other. The combination of these two aspects and needless secrecy about it - is expecting far too much of everyone.

If the role is limited to helping - at the request of or with the prior permission of the originator - that does not create the same problems. The problem that urgently needs addressing is just the current and increasingly used ability of volunteer fellow posters (some remaining anonymous) to impose their judgement upon their fellow posters - without the originators knowledge or permission.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:00 AM

I would accept that it could conceivably be a major thing, but in most cases is not.

Amos - perhaps you would accept that when such action happens to you - the impostion of another's judgement - will ALWAYS be a major thing?

Perhaps those are the cases you refer to where you consider it conceivably could be a major thing?

Especially perhaps when the individual imposing the judgement is an anonymous fellow poster? You may think it a major thing if I were the one imposing my personal judgement upon you. And how do I or anyone else know that it was not you that imposed your personal judgement upon my first thread title? Perhaps it was you?

Sadly I can see why some of us would judge that any action imposed upon others would not be a major thing. However, that sort of judgement is not likely to move our forum or the human race very much forward - is it?

We're alright Jack, so don't bother us
It may affect us too, if you go kicking up a fuss
I can see you are wounded
Not in the best of health
But we all agree, you must have brought it on yourself

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:00 AM

For everyone elses edification..........In most forums there are moderators delegated by the site administrator or owner who perform the duties Shambles objects to here. They do so as do the Joeclones at the request and with the approval of the site admin or owher, Posters to the forum are expected to follow a set of rules as laid out and these are subject to change and interpretation by the moderators and they have the approval of the owner before doing so, Posters have no say in these matters and debates and discussions such as this one are non-existent because a mod OR the site owner/admin would have removed it immediately. Administration and moderation of the site is NOT a topic for discussion.

These moderators are anonymous and use "handles" when performing their duties AND they also post to the threads but under their usual name. As a poster and member of the forum, you do not know who is who. As a moderator they are "Thread Zapper" and as a member they are "Danny from DesMoines." Here at Mudcat the clones were asked to remain anonymous but it soon became common knowledge who was a clone. This would not have happened had they chosen separate names as Mods. The mods make editorial postings when they want to give a warning but in general they PM the parties involved after the fact. A warning might read.......I have let this thread go on but it is getting close to becoming nothing more than a flame war. Pull it back now or I zap it into the ozone....Thread Zapper"

Anonymity keeps any debate between the site owner through PM or e-mail. It works well.

Just wanted to let everyone know that what Shambles is complaining about is like a pea in the Grand Canyon. Mudcat operates so freely and loosely we all should be overjoyed that so little actually is done to even clean it up. If you are so sensitive that the meer change of a title to more accurately reflect the subject bothers you, you need a valium. I am grateful for whatever is done to keep things clearer. As Shamble's stock-in-trade is obtuse obfuscation, I can see why he is troubled.

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:18 AM

I have a solution!

Shambles can donate the necessary funds to have round the clock moderation of the forum by named emplyess who will be forbidden to post. I expect roughly $120,000 annually should cover the salaries and benefits.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:19 PM

If anyone really likes imposed censorship on the lines detailed - perhaps they would like to go to such a site or start one - rather than invite others who do not welcome the introduction of such things on our forum - to go elsewhere.

Our forum is special - any attempts to make it as ordinary as other places - will never be very welcome by many long- term posters. Such things have nothing to do with the accomodating welcome and toleration that has always been the case and which will remain crucial to our forum.

The suggestions do not prevent 'indexing' - clarification or anything else thought necessary - the only thing that will be prevented is the routine imposition of the personal views of volunteer fellow posters upon the contributions of their fellow posters - without their knowledge or permission.

MMario says -
The procedure as you describe it would prevent any change being made on any anonymous contribution, spammer , etc. Max has a life. Part of the reason there are clones in the first place is to provide faster, better response time and more coverage.

It is perhaps not a good idea for you to mention the prevention of anonymous contributions or anonymous anything? But common sense would dictate that what is being stressed here by me and other posters - is the showing of mutual respect. A conventional contribution from a named poster will be showing our forum respect - even if (to some folks mind - its title could be clarified). Anonymous spam etc - would not be showing our forum any respect.

Are you really suggesting that it all should be lumped together -viewed and treated the same - for the sake of speed etc?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:31 PM

The suggestions do not prevent 'indexing' - clarification or anything else thought necessary - the only thing that will be prevented is the routine imposition of the personal views of volunteer fellow posters upon the contributions of their fellow posters - without their knowledge or permission

Your suggestion was no edit be done without the permission of the original poster. How does one determine that for an anonymous poster?

And as regard the routine imposition of the personal views of volunteer fellow posters upon the contributions of their fellow posters - without their knowledge or permission - well - we've been over this already - especially regarding "routine" and "fellow posters" in reference to the clones. As far as the "personal views" bit goes - there are guidlelines that have been given by Max. The work of the clones is subject to review. If the guidelines are exceeded or ignored the edits can be reversed. How does this become "imposition of personal views"?????

A system of checks and balances is in place - ordained by the site owner.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 12:43 PM

MMariodarlin'...it's no use...his convoluted, lone ramblings will go on and on, no matter how much logic and reason you try to insert. May this thread die through lack of response to such paranoid obfuscation...

kat

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:00 PM

Your suggestion was no edit be done without the permission of the original poster. How does one determine that for an anonymous poster?

If this is the only problem to be overcome before the suggestions here can be implemented - there is not much to worry about. MMario if it is not possible for any poster to be contacted - then leave the contribution as posted.


Before I am subject to more accusations and assumptions about my mental health from people I have never met - I feel some reality needs to be introduced into this debate.

It will remain a fact that none of my contributions have been subject to editing because they were abusive (or anonymous) or ever presented any real threat to our forum. Mostly they have been subject because the personal views of Joe Offer are different and thought (by Joe Offer) to be more important than mine or fellow posters.

Along with others I have had totally innocous posts delected permanently just for being in an entire thread - because Joe Offer stated that he was not prepared to take the time to delete only the offending posts from the thread. His personal view is thought to be more important than mine (and others).

I have lost count of the number of threads that I have either orgininated or posted to - that have been closed - again (usually) by Joe Offer and only because his personal views and judgement is different and thought superior to mine.

I have a similar problem with thread titles that anonymous volunteer fellow posters and Joe Offer seem to need to impose changes to - without my knowledge or permission - again because Joe Offer's personal views are different to mine. And so on..............

Is it seriously suggested that Joe Offer's personal views and resulting actions are always shared exactly by Max? Is it really too much to expect a situation where any volunteers fellow poster's personal views expressed on our forum - can never be confused by anyone - with Max's views and policy and thought to be one and the same?

It is not my paranoia but fact to be faced by all on our forum - that the difficulty that I have now in being subject to this imposition and special treatment - results only from expressing and evidencing a different view - on an open discussion forum - to that of one fellow poster.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM

Look man.....You ain't nothin' but a troll....period. It works for you and you love it. Anything else that might be on your agenda is pure unadultereated bullshit. You're a troll.....period..agaim.

If any of this tripe you sputter and spit had any validity to you, you would take it to Max and fight for some changes. Instead you troll along here having great fun with no real agenda at all.

I can only judge a person based on evidence and I can say that looking at the evidence, you are not the least interested in change but rather in stirring the pot. I have yet to see or hear of you taking any action that might result in the changes you supposedly desire. Not a single thing can I recall that would lead to change has been undertaken on your part. If there is, please enlighten us. You have no more interest in change around here than you do in sucking shit out of a yak's ass.

You do a helluva' good job of trolling though!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:27 PM

I would accept that it could conceivably be a major thing, but in most cases is not.

Amos - perhaps you would accept that when such action happens to you - the impostion of another's judgement - will ALWAYS be a major thing?

Well, in fact, Roger, it is not, in my view. I have had such judgements imposed on me, and found the explanations tolerable and made no big deal about it. See, I know I am not perfect, and I enjoy my fellow man well enough that a little give and take to make things move along smoothly is acceptable to me. Not only is such stuff not ALWAYS a major thing, in my experience as it has actually occurred here it has NEVER been a major thing and I see no reason to make it into one.

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:44 PM

Look, I have been going crazy here, trying to find a blow-up doll of Hillary Clinton, okay? There aren't any. Not on Ebay, not at Howard Stern's site, not on the black market, not anywhere. And it's not fair! Something needs to be done about it. This is important, don't you agree? Who is going to help? Anyone? I want action on this! So just get on it, okay?

You too, Shambles. Address yourself to something that friggin' matters for a change.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:46 PM

LH - the Hilary Clinton blow-up doll was discontinued because no one could tell it apart from the real one.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 02:53 PM

LOL! But that's the whole point, isn't it?

Oh, Hillary, sweet Hillary....

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 03:51 PM

Well, in fact, Roger, it is not, in my view. I have had such judgements imposed on me, and found the explanations tolerable and made no big deal about it.

Amos-

Perhaps if you had made more of it - this may have played a part in preventing the same treatment from being imposed upon others - who may have deserved it a lot less than you thought you did and would not have taken it so well?

But you are welcome to your choice. However, I do not appear to be very welcome to express mine. Not that I see I have any real choice but to continue until there is an end to special treatment that I unfairly receive from our volunteer fellow posters and all posters are again treated equally and respected on our forum.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:21 PM

"Not that I see I have any real choice but to continue until there is an end to special treatment that I unfairly receive from our volunteer fellow posters and all posters are again treated equally and respected on our forum." (Shambles)

Oh ....please can I be excused - I must go and watch some paint dry...

Blowz (who can't be bothered to learn how to do things in italics or other fancy stuff)

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM

Perhaps if you had made more of it - this may have played a part in preventing the same treatment from being imposed upon others - who may have deserved it a lot less than you thought you did and would not have taken it so well?


I wish well to all who tread these hallowed threads, but I assure you I have better things to do than to worry about those who are so self-obsessed or so plain overly-delicate that they can't handle a little plain and friendly exchange with someone as decent as Joe or his Clones. My advice to anyone in such a sorry condition is to toughen up, get a sense of humor, and discover a passion for life itself. Then they won't be bothered with sweating the small stuff.

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 07:00 PM

The 'small stuff' is often what we mistakenly think it is safe to let pass.

Our precious and hard-won freedoms are all lost in this fashion.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 11:54 PM

Why not write a long dissertation comparing the atrocities committed by the evil Clones of Mudcat to the Holocaust? Somebody put on a cassette of "Onward Christian Soldiers" to set the ambience.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 06:39 AM

OK - as you asked.

Many of aspects of the Holocaust were down to perfectly good people who were caught in a system - (that was based on bullying and stealing from selected targets) - when it was that it was too late for them to change or influence that system.

The main contribution these good people made to the humilitation and destruction of other equally good people - was to look the other way and fill in the forms that ensured the process which resulted in the murder of millions of others - was undertaken as efficiently as possible.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 02:53 PM

So, Roger, by implication the thread title alterations (without originator approval) in Mudcat are just the tip of the iceberg, and will lead to worse things - that is what you imply by drawing a parallel with the holocaust and the early appeasers, correct?

If that is indeed your drift, by all means, express away; feel free. And allow us the freedom to have a laugh at your example too.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:05 PM

Yeah, and Mudcat Gatherings are really just a convenient way for Max to round us all up and send us away.

~S~

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 03:51 PM

My GOd, Roger, ....I never LOOKED at it that way before!!! There really IS no difference between social compromise and Fascism!! Wow!!I mean, sure, they are a little bit different in terms of the determination of them, but that's just a quibble; the Germans are an excellent example.

IS that a freight train I hear coming out of your monitor? Ohhh....nooooooooooo!


A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 04:00 PM

So, Roger, by implication the thread title alterations (without originator approval) in Mudcat are just the tip of the iceberg, and will lead to worse things - that is what you imply by drawing a parallel with the holocaust and the early appeasers, correct?

Nope - I was asked to do it in this thread. I think what I said in those few words will be pretty clear to anyone who is not determined to find it obscure or intent on reading something else into it or finding in it yet more ammunition to fire (with the mob) at a selected easy target.


If you have an atmosphere - like the original spirit of The Mudcat Forum - that gives an accomodating welcome for all views to be expressed openly, equally and without judgement - most (if not all) contributors feel encouraged to follow the friendly example set. Folk usually know what the right and respectful thing to do is - and they feel free to do this in such an atmosphere.

When this atmosphere changes to one where an accomodating welcome is not given for all views to be expressed equally and where judgement upon the right of these to be expressed as posted - is imposed - folk then feel encouraged to follow this example. Folk still know what the right and respectful thing to do is - but are less likely to do it - in such an atmosphere.

Folk still know what the right and respectful thing to do is - but some feel in this new atmosphere - that not doing it and joining in with openly abusive witch-hunts against selective easy targets (like the one in this thread) - is now acceptable.

Or some think that even if they do not join in - that tolerating such hypocrisy as displayed in these type of witch-hunts - (as long as it happens to someone else who probably deserves it anyway) - is acceptable.

Thankfully others always know (whatever atmosphere is created) what the right and respectful thing to do is and do always try to do it.

The really sad thing is that the prentence is still made that the traditional accomodating welcome is still given on our forum when most of the guideing principles have long been sacrificed to some private concept of order.

Over time - our forum has traditionally changed in order to accomodate the contributors. Now the contibutors are expected to change and conform to the expectations of those few who feel their personal views and wishes are most important and now feel they are suitable qualified to control every aspect of our forum.

I live in hope that the traditional values of our forum are not lost forever. And I will continue do my best to try and ensure that the current pretence can once again become an honest accomodating welcome to all contributors to express their views - in the manner of their choosing. For that is all that I am doing. Is it really acceptable that anyone be subjest to open abuse on our forum - for moderately expressing their views?

You judge.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 05:40 PM

Shambles:

I do not agree that that is all you are doing.

Your charges of pretense, dishonesty, and moderation are not all they are claimed to be; they do not arrive there. The manner of your choosing, as you put it, is cloudy, unanswerable and obscure beyond reason.

Joe or one of his clones modifies the title of a thread to make it clearer to viewers. For this you launch a Federal case of infringement?

It may seem to you that some imbedded power structure of the Mudcat has erected an unfeeling, unhearing barrier to your rational and innocent communication.

But it does not work that way.

My judgement is the Mudcatter doth protest too much. You need to find the answer, but it won't be found among others, but within.

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 08:11 PM

The best way to deal with a fellow poster's freely expressed views - is perhaps not to impose your judgement on their words and change them.

Or to publicly judge their mental health and to pontificate upon their possible motives, call them names and invite others to do the same and laugh at their views (especially when you are not aware of all the circumstances). You may very well consider their concerns - not to be of equal concern to you.

But if you don't - why not just ignore them? They are not your concerns but your public judgement of them and your lack of concern - will not not make them of any less concern - to the one concerned - will it?   

I do not agree that that is all you are doing.

It matters little if you agree or not ----- For it remains a fact that all that CAN (just about) do on our forum is express my views.

To freely do so in the words of my choosing is all I wish - that I and everyone else is allowed to do. I cannot impose my personal judgements upon the contributions of others and have no wish to do so. I accept that I have no control over the posts of others and have no wish to this either.

I can very easily ignore the contributions of some posters and not post to refresh a thread with concerns that I claim am not concerned with. Something that others seem to find impossible........

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 09:15 PM

I cannot impose my personal judgements upon the contributions of others and have no wish to do so.

You mean, except when you misquote them, slant them, quote them out of context and long after the fact, and use them to stir up upset that has nothing to do with what they said or meant?

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 05 - 11:42 PM

Well, sure, Rog, have at it, say whatever you like. Feel free.

I'd be more interested if it was less likely to be untrammeled histrionic moanery, but you don't care about that.

I'll do likewise.


A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 02:52 AM

There's freedom of expression and there's gurning.
Sorry...couldn't resist it... cheap dig... apologies.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 03:15 AM

I prefer untrammeled histrionic moanery, but it only takes me to message #296...

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:02 AM

You mean, except when you misquote them, slant them, quote them out of context and long after the fact, and use them to stir up upset that has nothing to do with what they said or meant?

Susan-

One of the best aspects of our forum is that the words that are posted remain as posted and can always be brought back for clarification - unless they have deletions, closures and other changes routinely imposed upon them by fellow posters (some of whom remain anonymous).

All posters can judge for themselves if I really deserve your accusation - or indeed any of the accusations and abusive names that it now seems acceptable to call me - or anyone else who posts views that are not now thought to follow the official line in open discussion and debate on our forum. Or indeed if such judgements of fellow posters - by fellow posters have anything at all to do with all those invited by Max to contribute to our open discussion forum.

The request remains simple - that a posters words in thread titles remain as they are posted - unless they agree to any changes. The new principle has developed where our volunteer posters now consider that all thread titles are there for them to impose any changes they wish - without the originator's knowledge or permission. A practice said to be only undertaken for the clarification of our forum's readers - which (in a major if unstated piece of officail policy) are thought now to be more important than it contributors and seems to prevent the showing of equal respect to its contributors.

But as pointed out in this thread - this is a practice that is only selectively practiced on certain thread titles - even when many (or even most) thread titles could always be clarifed. Despite this - such selective actions are defended and justified as if the originator's wishes were thought less important than the wishes of those of their volunteer fellow posters ( some of whom remain anonymous) and whose actions always seem to be supported. Even when - as in this case when the incorrect imposed change caused the very confusion it was supposed to be changed to avoid.

I would like to see a situation return on our forum where everyone was seen to be treated equally. Is that really so bad?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:12 AM

Considered your request. Denied.

Mick

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:15 AM

So Shambles, when YOU call people names it's free speech, but when anyone else does it, it's a conspiracy?

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 09:25 AM

So Shambles, when YOU call people names it's free speech, but when anyone else does it, it's a conspiracy?

Susan - these are your words not mine.

Please first provide the evidence of me calling anyone names or responding in kind to the abuse and many names that I have been called and that you seem to think is acceptable on our forum?

Or perhaps it would be more constructive for you to address the issue?   

I would like to see a situation return on our forum where everyone was seen to be treated equally. Is that really so bad?