In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 10:06 AM

You mean Max's forum that we use, for free in most cases? The one where Max makes the rules or chooses not to?

Thanks,

Mick

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 10:12 AM

As far as I know, Shambles, everyone is treated equally, within reasonable margins of error.
If they post hatred, it will be deleted; if the post with an obscure or confusing post title it may be enhanced; the FAQ lays out the nature of the game.

It is natural that some develop reputations in one direction and others in another. I have a reputation for being very wordy and long-winded.

But that's part of the territory of human interaction, and is easily managed by personal choice.

So there ya go. You are an equal among equals.

Not all posts or all threads are created equal, though; when I create a post that breaks the rules of the forum I get it removed, and Joe tells me why he did it. I say, "Oh. Quite right, Joe, I overstepped there, didn't I? Jolly good, carry on." End of story -- two PMs.

Under the exact same circumstances, you would, I think, be more likely to write a Gibbon-sized tome on the wrongness of all that has been done to you. Somehow that does not strike you as boring.

I can only assume that you enjoy that activity -- me, I prefer to get on with it. I think there are MUCH more interesting things to discuss than the tiny vagaries of site management.

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 10:38 AM

ONCE AGAIN: the thread title in question, after 300+ postings, was ADDED TO, NOT changed. There was no harm done by it.

kat

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

The harm done was that the polite and respectful action of first asking the originator was not undertaken before the still anonymous volunteer poster imposed their judgement selectively and unfairly upon that thread title in isolation and not others.

Further harm was done because had the originator been first asked - the 'UK' would not have been incorrectly added because the information the thread contained did not apply to the UK.

Perhaps the originator should be the one who judges whether harm is done or not. Perhaps they should also be due an apology when they are clearly seen to have been unfairly treated?

Considerable harm is done to the credibility of our forum if these incorrect imposed judgements by anonymous fellow posters are still to be defended (as if they had in fact clarifed anything or been fairly and generally imposed) and anyone one who may object to this needless imposition is subject to abuse and name-calling for just expressing and evidencing this view.

The manner of which the title change was needlessly imposed on this thread and the harm done to any attempt at of impartiality and posters being treated equally by our volunteer fellow posters - rather speaks for itself.....

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 02:24 PM

No harm? No harm, you say? This is the thin end of the wedge, this is! What's to stop message content being changed next? And after that, it will spread to other websites, no doubt. Soon enough it will be accepted as standard practice across the internet. Books will be censored. Free speech curtailed. By that time nobody will care, anyway, when they come to take your spouse away. And your children, to work in sweatshops. And it will be one short step away from indiscriminate killing of any free thinkers, to make the parallel with the Holocaust complete.

I see them coming now. They are coming to take me away.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 03:04 PM

Editing complaints are asked, numerous times, to be posted in the Help Forum or privately to Joe Offer.

Taking it public as a first course of action, and making a witch hunt of it against site personnel, is a bit like undertaking to f**k a gift horse up the a**. That's one's own choice, of course, but to pretend surprise when one is kicked is somewhat disingenuous.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: GUEST,615
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 03:25 PM

Holy crap - is this whinefest STILL going on ? Shambles - get a grip. There are far more important things to worry about. And NONE of them are located here at the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 04:39 PM

"The manner of which the title change was needlessly imposed on this thread and the harm done to any attempt at of impartiality and posters being treated equally by our volunteer fellow posters - rather speaks for itself....."

Yes, you could be right. I think it does speak for itself. What it is saying is: "At least 95% of the people have no idea what it is that Shambles is running on and on about and could care even less. If Shambles is so overwrought and deeply harmed as he purports to be than he should take his troubles and his damaged soul to Max who is the ONLY ONE who can provide the solace he so desperately requires."

Yeah.....that's what I hear it saying. You're big on the PM's Roger......Why haven't you written to Max? Better get on it right away!!! Or you could take Susan's appraoch and fuck the horse in the ass! I'll buy a ticket for that!!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 05:02 PM

Agree, WYSIWYG - that is why we Greeks traditionally only look gift horses in the mouth :-)

And of course they are more stroppy than goats.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:08 PM

Editing complaints are asked, numerous times, to be posted in the Help Forum or privately to Joe Offer.

Joe Offer states in this thread - that basic respect cannot always first be shown to posters - in the manner of privately consulting them before editing is imposed upon their contributions - because it is considered by our volunteer fellow posters as too 'cumbersome'.

My posting policy (to be found in my FAQ) is to ask that I and others are first consulted privately before any changes are publicly imposed upon our contributions as a matter now of routine - by anonymous fellow posters.

If this simple request was honoured by my fellow posters - there would be no need for any complaints about imposed editing action to be made - in any form.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:24 PM

And if you disagreed about the way the forum is run for our benefit? That is why the consultation principle has the potential to be cumbersome; look at the enormous waste of time in this thread.

If you were unhappy about the change then a comment to that effect in the relevant thread explaining your position should have been sufficient.

If you dont like max's rules and the way he organises his helpers then set up your own forum and if we all like it better we'll follow you.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:47 PM

That is why the consultation principle has the potential to be cumbersome; look at the enormous waste of time in this thread.

It would not be cumbersome at all to most of us - just polite - and this thread is only a waste of time for those who don't think the issue to be important and keep posting and refreshing the thread just to say how unimportant they consider actions imposed upon other people are.

If you dont like max's rules and the way he organises his helpers then set up your own forum and if we all like it better we'll follow you.

I have like Max's rules perfectly well for many years - perhaps those who do not kike them - are the ones who should take their rules and actions that you consider as too cumbersome and start a site where they could impose as many rules as they wished?   

Subject: RE: Explain the BS rules
From: Max - PM
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 12:40 AM

Since you are with us, you get to help us make the rules. Of late it seems that it is used for non-music related questions, comments, thoughts and stories. It may be like just a light conversation piece, or just killing time, or getting through a bad day, or anything non-academic (if you will). Or, just don't use it. It is what you make it. Don't sweat the rules, cause there aint none.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=14726&messages=56&page=1&desc=yes

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:21 PM

Shambles, just because you may not have grown up any since 26 Oct 99 doesn't mean Max hasn't. Is it possible he's learned a few things about running a discussion forum since then? Oh well, since you have not consulted him, you're free to imagine him held hostage, too, as you seem to think you are yourself. What, did Joe Offer slip him mind-control drugs last time they met?

Bad Joe! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:49 PM

312 posts in one of these threads before the quote comes out. Is this a record?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: bobad
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

Shambles has had 8481 posts to date.

Anyone willing to venture a guess as to how many of these were complaints about mudcat?

Subject: Policy on thread name changes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 12:49 AM

Well, let's see....I guess there are some 315 posts in this thread, probably more by the time I'm done with this. Maybe it's time to summarize.

• Shambles proposes that any time a thread title is altered in any way, the thread originator should be contacted in advance for permission. He contends that any alteration of a thread title is censorship, and should not be done without the express permission of the thread originator. To do less is to show disrespect to the freedom of speech of the thread originator.
  

  ---

  
  
• The volunteers and I contend that we do respect the freedom of speech of our fellow Mudcatters because we do not touch the content or titles of the messages posted except in very rare and restricted circumstances. We contend that the Forum Menu and thread titles are merely an index, not a free-speech expression; and that thread titles are a service to the community and should clearly identify the contents of a thread and differentiate that thread from other threads. As such, thread titles are not and should not be under control of the thread originator.
  
  
• In addition to our policy of leaving the contents of messages unaltered in most circumstances, we do show respect for the concerns expressed by Shambles because we attempt to rename threads by adding to them, leaving the core of the thread title intact. If there is a possibility that the thread originator may have trouble finding the thread later, we DO contact the originator when possible and give notice of the new name of the thread.
  
  
• We contend that advance notification of thread name changes is unnecessary and impractical. Most threads have most of their traffic in their first half-day of life - so if a name change is needed, it should be done as soon as possible, to help Mudcatters know right away what's inside that thread. In addition, it would indeed be cumbersome for multiple volunteers to develop a system for contacting thread originators for permission and waiting for a response, and then remembering to make the change once permission is granted. What if more than one volunteer gets the idea the thread title should be changed? Do we have to have a staff meeting to decide responsibility for each title change?
  
  
• We also have a regular practice of contacting members by personal message and e-mail when they have trouble logging in, and we ask them to respond to make sure everything is working properly for them. Adding a requirement for contact and waiting for response on thread title changes would add effort and confusion to this already-heavy burden.
  
  
• In general, our thread naming practices are quite innocuous, and consist of adding song titles and songwriter names to threads about songs, adding the date of death to obituaries, adding locations to gig threads, changing ALLCAPS to Title Case, removing inconsistent spellings or unusual characters that can impede searches, and other mundane matters. The logical time for a volunteer to make a thread title change is when he or she is reading the thread - not a day or two later, after the need and the idea have passed. We try to be consistent in our methods of titling thread so that people will have an easier time searching. In our experience, it appears that very few people - perhaps only one - have any complaint about the vast majority of our thread title changes.
  
  
• Athough we do not have a system for advance approval by thread originators of thread title changes, there's nothing to stop anybody from complaining about any change we make. Just send me a personal message. You may not like my answer - but then you're free to appeal to Max.
  
  

So, Shambles, I think that's a pretty good summary of your complaint and my answer. Now's your time for rebuttal - but please be succinct, and please stick to the topic at hand. Once you've had your say-so, I'll respond. If you don't like my response, feel free to go to Max. But I think it's time to stop repeating yourself on this issue. Take your time and think things out carefully, and do your best to say whatever you have to say in one message. Then I'll respond, and then you can go to Max if you're not happy with my response. Please be sure to tell us what Max tells you.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:29 AM

Joe -

Is this your personal view expressed as a fellow poster?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 03:50 AM

Your response should be one and the same, Roger, irrespective of which hat Joe was wearing. The truth is always the truth; and your position should always be the same, no matter who asks the question. So skip the smokescreen.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 03:53 AM

Roger......Is that your answer expressed as a troll?

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:41 PM

We contend that advance notification of thread name changes is unnecessary and impractical.

I have no idea who Joe's Offer's 'we' consists of do you?

There are an unknown number of anonymous volunteers and an unknown number of volunteers (with edit buttons) who are prepared for their names to be be known and to stand by their imposed judgements upon their fellow posters.

Until it is clear that Joe Offer has approached every one he claims to speak for and all of of them are in complete agreement with everthing he has stated here on their behalf - I will make the sensible assumption that it is only Joe Offer's personal (and perfectly valid) view. For this message was not contributed as an editing comment and to add further to the confusion - it finshes off with the following.

So, Shambles, I think that's a pretty good summary of your complaint and my answer.

So Joe - is this your personal view expressed as a fellow poster?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:51 PM

Sham, do you not speak English?

A

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:54 PM

Anyone who claims to know English (even American English) will know there is a world of difference between 'I' and 'WE'.

Perhaps you could explain this difference to Joe?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 02:57 PM

Judging by his answer Joe is already quite aware of the differences and correct usage.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 04:12 PM

Stop playing games, Roger. In my first paragraph, I identified "we" as "the volunteers and I." That's not the issue.

You (who contend that there should be no rules) have proposed new rules to control actions of volunteers in the naming and renaming of thead titles, and I have responded to your proposal and given you a chance to rebut my response. Thus far, you have failed to offer a rebuttal, and you have instead chosen to attempt to confuse the issue with your silly "I-we" game.

Do you have anything rational to say to rebut my response, or not? Stick to the subject at hand, Roger.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: harpgirl
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 06:38 PM

Who types faster? Roger or Joe?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 08:27 PM

"Stick to the subject at hand, Roger."

LMAOLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAO

And when exactly has he ever done that before?

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 06:26 AM

You (who contend that there should be no rules) have proposed new rules to control actions of volunteers in the naming and renaming of thead titles, and I have responded to your proposal and given you a chance to rebut my response.

Joe - It is not my contention that there should not be any rules. But over the years there have been precious few imposed in practice or much real need for this imposition - and it is Max who I quote and to whom you should perhaps take issue? It is what you make it. Don't sweat the rules, cause there aint none.

I am making no rules - just a simple request proper respect is again shown as a matter of course - to invited contributions. That thread titles remain as posted unless the originator's permission to change it is first obtained. It is only your personal wish to impose your judgments upon thread titles and your personal view and insistence that thread titles are now yours to impose changes upon - that is causing the concern that I am trying to address.


Stop playing games, Roger. In my first paragraph, I identified "we" as "the volunteers and I." That's not the issue.

I am afraid that before I make any further response to your personal opinions posted as an ordinary fellow poster and refreshing the thread in the conventional manner - and not as a editing comment which does not refresh the thread - this remains very much the issue. Certain terms need to be first agreed before this exchange can be called in any honesty - a debate on our open public discussion forum – where all animals remain equal. Or something quite different where some animals are now more equal than others - and their views thought more important and to be routinely imposed, defended and justified.

I see my personal views as no more important than any of my fellow posters and have no wish to impose my views upon them – as I have no qualification that enables me to sit in judgement. Perhaps those who do feel themselves qualified to do this can explain why they wish to impose their judgement upon their fellow posters and how and why they feel qualified to do so?

When other posters and I use the word 'WE' - it is general term for ALL OF US.

Joe when you use the same word and speak for this 'WE'- whoever you are speaking for - it does not mean ALL OFF US - does it?

When YOU use this word now - it has a specific meaning that does not include other fellow posters and me. Your use of this word now - refers a unknown number of volunteer fellow posters. And upon whom – the placing (what some of these volunteers) consider to be a cumbersome burden upon or inconveniencing in any way – is beginning to sound as if it is thought (by these volunteer posters anyway) to the major consideration on our forum. A priority that is less with our forum's readers needs (as claimed) but the needs of some of our volunteers fellow posters.

And when your use of the word 'WE' switches at will - to the word 'I' - there will always remain some confusion about who you claim to speaking for and the status of your personal views. I question the wisdom or the need for such a 'THEM and 'US' divide on our forum - and it is the attempt to maintain this fairly new attitude in the face of this division between friends - that is at the very heart of the issue.

I stand to be corrected - as I am not privy to these secrets - but is not Bert still a volunteer fellow poster with an edit button. Is his opinion included when you post and speak for 'WE'? Or are the views of anyone who may not agree with your personal views simply to be discounted? Bert for one - does not seem to be in agreement with what you claim 'WE' - are said by you - to maintain. Perhaps there are others who may also not be in agreement? If so - one can only hope that they are brave enough to publicly say this here and if they do – that their views and wishes are then given more consideration than mine, Bert's or others.


Subject: RE: In the UK..............?
From: Bert - PM
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:37 PM

I have to agree with Shambles on this. If someone originates a thread what right does someone else have to change the title?

Unless the thread is offensive then it should stay as it is. So if YOU have the ability to edit threads then keep your bloody maulers off unless the thread is a personal attack, a threat, or is offensive.

Subject: RE: In the UK..............?
From: Bert - PM
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:04 PM

Oooh wow. There's a lot going on here.

First Shambles and Katlaughing and Wolfgang and just about everybody posting here. No not just about - EVERY SINGLE PERSON posting here, I consider to be a dear friend. So my opinion is based on the issue involved and is not personal in any way.

The issue is that Shambles has been targetted for editing by one particular elf.

So if that particular elf would BACK OFF AND LEAVE HIM ALONE then the problem will go away.

I will also state that I consider the elf in question to be a dear friend. So it is not a personal thing. Now Elf in question just take it easy and let Shambles and all the rest of us have their say without interference - PLEASE


Subject: RE: In the UK..............?
From: Bert - PM
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 02:03 PM

No Jerimeluv, I didn't take Shambles side without question.

Firstly I have the right to my own opinion regarding this issue.
"Either leave things as they are or add place of origin to ALL Mudcat postings." Willy nilly adding origins to a few threads only doesn't appear top me to be a good solution to the imagined problem. And it is an imagined problem, we have been doing fine for years without adding origins to threads.

If we do start adding origins I see the posibility of Mudcat being divided along national lines. This is something I would not like to see.

Secondly I have exchanged pm's with Shambles about his postings being subject of unnecessary editing and removal. So I can also see why he is a little sensitive about his thread being changed. If we had received the same treatment that Shambles has then we all would be up in arms about the problem and would come down firmly on his side.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:28 PM

Take it to Max, Roger. Bert is wrong in which elf he *thinks* added to the title. As a joeclone, Joe is speaking for me. IMO, this thread should be closed. Take it to Max.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM

Joe speaks for me too, though I am not a joeclone.
IMO, rules are needed where common sense is absent.
In this case, common sense flew out of the window a long time ago.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:43 PM

What Kat and George said.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM

Bert is wrong in which elf he *thinks* added to the title

I have no idea who Bert may think was responsible and whether he is right or not - because he has not said and it matters little anyway. But if all volunteer fellow posters were known and operated openly - would there be a need for any of this divisive speculation?

Perhaps those who do feel themselves qualified to do this can explain why they wish to impose their judgement upon their fellow posters and how and why they feel qualified to do so?

Perhaps if they now all volunteered to unvolunteer to impose their judgement upon their fellow posters - we would could all start again to post pn an equal basis?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:49 PM

If thread titles were really thought to need clarification – the originator would be likely to agree and there would be no need for imposition.

Also if it is generally thought that they would benefit from additions being imposed – this is in effect – means thread titles being made longer by our volunteers. The question raised by this is – if longer imposed thread titles are possible – and they are - because our volunteers with edit buttons have more characters available to them for thread titles – than ordinary posters. Why cannot the number of characters available to ordinary posters be increased to the same number available to our volunteer fellow posters?

Certainly any judgement made by our volunteer fellow posters on the clarity of originator's thread titles should be seen in this light. With more characters available to them - the originator may have been able (without any imposition) to make a much clearer and longer title themselves. Given this needless inequality – any imposed judgement could be seen to be a little harsh and perhaps hypocritical?      

Can the number of characters available for thread titles - for ordinary posters - be increased to be the same as those given to our volunteer fellow posters?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 01:53 PM

Please give some examples where a volunteer changed a thread title that was already at the limit

---

The volunteers have the ability to change thread titles and are encouraged to do so in certain obvious situations, but I do most thread renaming myself so that we maintain a consistent pattern to aid searching. When a thread title is truncated, I'll often make use of my extra four spaces (or whatever) and complete the missing word(s). The extra spaces are handy, because the allow room for volunteers to fill in missing tags or locations.
I sometimes squeeze in extra space by changing "lyr req" to "req" (or "req/add" when lyrics are submitted) so a more complete song title can appear in the thread title. Harvesting marks and other harvesting and categorizing tags are sometimes added, but most of the volunteers are not involved in that process. I have also experimented with changing "lyr req" to "lyr/chords" or "lyr/tune" when appropriate, rather than having separate threads for lyrics, chords, and tune requests and additions. Common sense, I think.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: (thread title change complaint)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM

Well, Roger, you've made your rebuttal. I think I'm satisfied with what I said in my initial summary (click) on 08 Aug 05 - 12:49 AM, and I don't have anything to add.

You haven't changed my mind and I'm not willing to accept the rules you seek to impose on our volunteers. We will continue to operate by common sense and consistent practices, not rules, sparingly augmenting thread titles for the purpose of clarification; and we will continue to leave message titles and content unchanged.

And yes, I will acknowledge that Bert is a volunteer and has been since the beginning of Mudcat, and that he has expressed a differing opinion. He is the only volunteer who has done so, and many of our volunteers have spoken up in this thread. Perhaps he would like to step forward and explain more fully why it's wrong to add a song title or songwriter name to the countless threads titled "lyrics required," or a location to a gig thread, or a date of death or "Obit" tag to an obituary without going through an approval process. As far as I can see, Bert is the only individual who has expressed any agreement with your proposed rules at all.

I do think you you need to study English grammar and usage a little more deeply, so that you understand the use of the first person singular and plural pronouns. Proper use of first-person pronouns requires the writer to establish initially the identity of "we," usually by stating "such and such and I" in the first usage - as in "The volunteers and I." After that, the first person plural pronoun "we" may be used. To continually use the term "The volunteers and I" in a statement would be redundant, since the writer can easily and clearly replace it with "we." Of course, you have made it quite clear that you believe in redundancy as a way of life. You have repeated your arguments on I-we and thread title changes ad nauseam.

I realize that you have a compulsion to write rules for the behavior of others, but extending it to their use of grammar is a bit extreme. I prefer to follow conventional rules of English usage, and not to emulate your style of prose or attempt to follow the rules of Shamblesgrammar.

So, our policy on thread title changes has been stated. If you don't like it, your next step is to go to Max. I have nothing more to say on the matter and you've had your chance. Please stop back and tell us how Max responds.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:19 PM

Perhaps the thread could be closed till Shambles notifies a volunteer (via the Help Forum) that he has something current from Max, to add.

Perhaps future (and any still-opn past) threads on the same manner could also be promptly closed?

~Susan

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:24 PM

Yes, Susan, good suggestion. Close the thread!

Subject: (yet another thread title change complaint)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:41 PM

I thought of closing the thread and waiting for Roger to come back with a response from Max, but that would just give him a reason to start another diatribe about closing threads. So, let Roger decide whether he wants to prattle on, or if he wants to go to the top and convince Max to countermand our current practice and impose Roger's rules upon us.

Maybe he can get Max to make a ruling on the proper use of "I" and "we," huh?

I think it's wiser to keep this thread open and force Roger to keep his remarks in this one place where I've taken the time to give a reasoned response.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:02 PM

The extra spaces are handy, because the allow room for volunteers to fill in missing tags or locations.

Joe do I take it that as this was an editing comment - it is not just your personal view?

If the extra tags were available to all posters (I suspect a not too difficult operation) - it would be handy for them also and may prevent the imposition of any changes or prefixes - which still remain optional for posters to use or not in titles - or do you personally consider their use now complusory on our forum?   

The important point about the grammar - (as I am sure you are aware) - was to to point out that when you use the word 'WE' you do not now mean ALL OF US. That remains a very sad fact.

You willingly accept that your use of 'WE' did not include Bert - whilst accepting that he is a volunteer - but this fact (or his view) does not seem to have any affect on your insistence on still using this divisive and inacurate term. And claiming your detailed personal view is speaking on behalf of many others.

---

I have nothing more to say on the subject, Shambles. The spaces are used for administrative, harvesting, and indexing purposes which have been clearly explained. Prefixes and other tags are optional in the thread creation process, but they will be added by volunteers if needed to assist in indexing.
You're repeating things we've already covered. What's the matter? - don't you have the courage to talk to Max about it?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:16 PM

Yes, Susan, good suggestion. Close the thread!

Yes! - Me too! - Hang the witch!

What is now thought to be so threatening about continuing an open debate on our open discussion forum? These are simply my honest views. What grounds could there possibly be for closing this thread?

If its contents are not to your taste - then don't open it - and don't keep posting to refresh it.

I don't see anything unreasonable about trying to ensure that the words of what I and others post on our - always remains as posted - unless agreement is first reached with me for it to be changed.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:23 PM

hey Joe! thanks for your explanation above - tho' I was attempting to ask Roger to present examples where the situation he describes in his post of 3:02 was applicable.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM

I don't see anything unreasonable about trying to ensure that the words of what I and others post on our - always remains as posted - unless agreement is first reached with me for it to be changed.

So you now want to be consulted on changes to others' posts as well? Just a bit of a control freak aren't you?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:39 PM

I have nothing more to say on the subject, Shambles. You're repeating things we've already covered. What's the matter? - don't you have the courage to talk to Max about it?
-Joe Offer-

Since you made that statement you have as usual continued to say more on the subject and will - I suspect - continue to personally taunt me and treat me unfairly whilst doing do so - but at the same time saying little that will change anything for the general benefit of our forum - I fear.

However, I have no fear of talking to Max and why would you think that I am not also doing this when I am contributing to an open debate on the forum that Max created on his website - for that very purpose?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:42 PM

Probably because you have been repeatedly asked by multiple persons to take your questions to Max - as per stated forum policy - and there is no indication that you have done so.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:46 PM

So you now want to be consulted on changes to others' posts as well? Just a bit of a control freak aren't you?

Sorry about that one - it was not of course what I meant to say and in that form - it could have come from any of our volunteers who may be what you describe.

It should have read -
I don't see anything unreasonable about trying to ensure that the words of what I and others post on our - always remains as posted - unless agreement is first reached with the originator for it to be changed.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:53 PM

And of course by "our (forum?)" you mean "Max's forum" correct?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 03:55 PM

tHIS PROBLEM IS NOT A SHAMBLES PROBLEM. iT IS A MUDCAT STRUCURAL PROBLEM WHEREBY MAX SAYS NO RULES AND DOESN'T RESPOND TO QUESTIONS EXCEPT ON THE OPEN FORUM AND WITH PRECIOUS LITTLE CLARIFICATION AND DEFERS RULE MAKING TO THE VARIOUS VOLUNTEERS. iT IS A FRUITLESS DEBATE SINCE THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN CREATED BY mAX IN HOW HE STRUCTURES THE (LOOSELY USED CONCEPT OF) ADMINISTRATION AND HE REFUSES TO DIRECT THE VOLUNTEERS. mAX HAS CREATED THIS ENDLESS DEBATE AND ONLY HE CAN STOP IT. wHY DON'T THE REST OF YOU STOP PLAYING mAX'S PSYCHOLOGICAL GAME? AND MAX, STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND STOP ALL THIS USELESS YAMMERING!

LOVE, HARPGIRL

aND HERE ARE THE CLONEHEADS THAT i KNOW OF
bERT jOE jERI kATLAUGHING mICK AND i THINK CATSPAW AND JEFP

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:00 PM

?? Max has always responded to me when I've PM's him with questions.

And unless you are a clone OR have discussed it with Max, how do you know he doesn't give them direction?

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:01 PM


Way back when Roger you were more than happy to cry to Max at every chance and when things went badly for you, you sulked off in the corner. Ah yes, there was that touching "good-bye" as you left supposedly never to be seen again. But then you decided to come back because the music still had merit or whatever it was you said back then. The joint was pretty small and most of us were so enamored of it that having you return seemed only right. It took a very short time to remember why it was so pleasant when you were gone. This bitch session of yours has been pretty much seamless ever since!

You also know exactly what Max will say and you don't want to ask him. He won't tell you off or anything of course but will probably suggest that Joe has his confidence but thanks for your suggestions. We both know he might also suggest that you've repeatedly stated your thoughts and that's enough.

Then what will you do? Why will you have reason to come here? Perhaps we need a Shambles Suggestion thread. On it you can post all of your complaints and solutions to Max and the rest of us will leave it undisturbed with no debate whatsoever. Then Max can read it occasionally to see what is troubling your mind lately. To be fair I think you should have to limit yourself. Once you have stated a problem as you see it.......THAT'S IT! No more.

Shall I start that thread for you?

Spaw

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:06 PM

I am not a clone.

I am, however, Spartacus.

Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:24 PM

This is the game that Max plays in catspew's remarks:
He won't tell you off or anything of course but will probably suggest that Joe has his confidence but thanks for your suggestions.

This is a non answer designed to avoid responsibility but not give adequate responsiblity to someone else.

It's called "let's you and him fight." Max could solve this problem. He chooses not to. He enjoys the chaos. What else could one conclude when some passive aggressive clone edits one of Roger's thread titles?
the cloneheads know Roger will get upset but they do it anyway. Only Max can solve this problem. He doesn't. Therefore, it continues. Any monkey could understand this.

I've always thought that the games Max plays are very interesting and amusing, frankly. But he is ultimately rsponsible for the endless arguing and abuse that is heaped on Roger at his request. Max feels superior and above it all when he watches this shit go on without changing the mudcat structure to make it stop. Simple as that.

love, harpgirl