Irish in Civil War? (USA)

Subject: Irish in Civil War?
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:30 PM

There were Irish Brigades in the Civil War, as enlisting meant instant citizenship. I seem to remember a song about this appearing in the forum, but have no idea how to search for it.
Can somebody please point?

Also, is there a good book on the subject?

TIA,
Michael

(I feel a song coming on...)

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:34 PM

I couldn't start sifting through it, Michael... Sorry.

But here's a link to some of the results I got from a search... Click Here

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 08:37 PM

... I dont know if that link works now, or not... I typed Irish Brigades Civil War into the boxes on an Advanced Forum Search, and it returned quite a few references..

The Cat's a bit crazy at the minute...

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:37 PM

On her Sean Nos album, Sinnead O'Connor did a song about
an Irish immigrant who was not happy to find himself fighting
in the American Civil War.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM

My collection isn't handy but you might google for a cd called "The Irish Volunteer". All Irish, all Civil War.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:57 PM

Guest Gerry -- thanks for jogging my memory. On Sinead's CD it's called "Paddy's Lament", while Andy M. Stewart recorded it as "By the Hush".

Hear ye boys, take my advice
To America I'll have you not be coming
There is nothing here but war
Where the murdering cannons roar
And I wish I was at home in dear old Dublin

Guest 8:34 -- thanks for your efforts, but the link returns an error message. And when I tried to replicate your search, I got "no results"...

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

There were plenty of Irish fighting on both sides. The North may have employed a greater number of immediately-recent immigrants "right off the boat," but the South signed up plenty of Irish immigrants and second-generation Irish-Americans too, many from Savannah and New Orleans. Both sides organized "Irish Brigades."

Check out Mudcatter Jed Marum, who has written a number of songs about the Irish in the Civil War, including this complete album. Some of his work involves transcribing poetry and other actual writings from the past and setting it to music, so some of his original material is truly "historical," not just traditional-sounding. Jed knows his stuff about Irish history and the American Civil War, and this material is where his two great interests intersect.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: GUEST,Dave'sWife
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:21 PM

There are also a number of songs about The Fighting 69th Irish Brigade from New York. There a number of threads about such songs but, The search function isn't showing the ones I remember. I'm sure in a few syas or weeks when the Mudcat is feeling better, the searches will show more.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:10 PM

Predominantly Irish units for the Confederacy and the Union are listed here: Irish in the War Between the States
This website has links to many informative sites.

As Poppagator says, there were many Irish who fought for the South. Ships with immigrants from Ireland and elsewhere landed at southern as well as northern ports prior to the War and perhaps after. New Orleans had a rather large Irish population; they often undertook jobs that slave owners would not permit their slaves to do, and they displaced many of the free blacks working the docks and the River. Their history may be found in several books.
In digging the New Basin Canal in the 1830s, estimates of the Irish that succumbed on the job vary wildly, from 3000 to 30000; the song says:

Ten thousand Micks, they swung their picks
To dig the New Canal
But the choleray was stronger than they
An twice it killed them awl.

The Irish controlled the cartage and hack business for many years. There also were many Irish professionals and merchants.

Civil War threads at Mudcat have quite a bit of information, but as noted, difficult to to find now.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: GUEST,ex-pat, mm, where is my cookie?
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:44 PM

The Canadian band Hardtack and Harmony have some great songs about the Irish in the Civil War on two Cd's. I believe New Orleans was the 4th biggest point of entry for the US up to 1861. Several Louisiana regiments were predominately Irish.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:06 AM

Oh, that civil war. Mudelf, please put (USA) in the thread title.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:15 AM

The use (or threat of) of Irish troops was indeed one of the immediate causes of the Civil War (in England and Wales), and there was an Irish Brigade led by General Eoin O'Duffy on the Fascist side - the only foreign fascists other than Germans and Italians- in the Civil War (in Spain).

Irish troops were used by both sides in the Civil War (1922-23).

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: sapper82
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:12 AM

My thoughts entirely Richard!
Thought we were bound for yet another prolongewd diatribe about Oliver Bloody Cromwell!

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War?
From: ejsant
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:34 AM

David Kincaid has two CD's out that have twenty-four Irish American songs in total from the Civil War era on them. In my opinion they are brilliant CD's. There are songs from both the Union and Confederate soldiers. They can be found on this web site:Here

By they way from what I have learned some of the Irish were conscripted upon arrival here in America. It was easy they were hungry and in need of a situation. $5.00 and the promise of citizenship and pension was all that was needed to entice them to fight.

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:00 AM

Kincaid is your man, also his band The Brandos.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Charmion
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:15 AM

"Paddy's Lamentation" or "By The Hush, M'Boys" appears in the first volume of Edith Fowke's "Folk Songs of Canada". It is also in "The Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs", which contains so many of the songs from Edith Fowke that she should have received royalties.

Ms Fowke collected "By The Hush" from a vigorous old logger, O.J. Abbot of Hull, Quebec. If I recall correctly, that version is the source of most North American iterations of this song after 1950.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:22 AM

I made a note of the following, from Shelby Foote's brilliant TV series on the Civil War. This passage is from the diary of a Confederate general, describing a Union offensive during the Battle of Fredericksburg:

"How beautifully they came on. Their bright bayonets glistening in the sunlight made their line look like a huge serpent of blue and steel. We could see our shells bursting in their ranks, making great gaps; but on they came, as though they would go straight through us and over us... The brilliant assault of their Irish brigade was beyond description. We forgot they were fighting us, and cheer after cheer at their fearlessness went up along our lines... It was suicide... They came forward as though they were breasting a storm of rain and sleet... The Irish brigade got within 25 paces of the wall, and the men of the 24th Georgia who shot them down were Irish too."   -   General George Pickett

Pickett's own division was lost - again near a stone wall - when Lee ordered a suicidal charge on the appropriately-named Cemetery Ridge during the Battle of Gettysburg. It was Longstreet's duty to relay Lee's command to Pickett, and when the hour of attack came, he could not trust his voice, but merely nodded. As the doomed Rebel troops advanced, waiting Union soldiers are said to have chanted "Fredericksburg Fredericksburg" over and over, before slaughtering 6500 Confederates. Afterwards, when Lee told Pickett to rally his division in case of a counter- offensive, Pickett replied "General, I have no division now." He never forgave Lee.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:38 AM

You would be absolutely wrong to assume that Irishmen were forced in large numbers to fight for their adopted countries - North and South in the US Civil War. This is a myth created in modern times. Some did, but this was by far a minority attitude. At the start of the war, Irish immigrants and their sons, volunteered to join regiments of Union and Confederate armies in huge numbers. They remained the largest single immigrant group to do so throughout the war.

Most fought willingly and bravely for their respective sides, in order to prove their worth to their new homeland. They believed in the ideals of the USA and CSA. They wanted to disprove the popular 19th Century American notion that Irishmen, especially Catholic Irishmen were not valuable citizens and would be loyal Rome over their new home. They wanted to demonstrate the loyalty and bravery of Irishmen. They wanted to develop military skill and experience - in order to help free Ireland one day, if they were called to do so, and bring American type freedom to Ireland.

Of course, some were dismayed over consrciptption. Of course some felt the things said in "Paddy's Lamentation" aka "By The Hush" - but this was a minority opinion - greatly overshadowed by the other, much more prevalent motivations.

I've read many books on the subject - but this is my favorite and the best place to start researching the subject:

Irish Rebels, Confederate Tigers: The 6th Louisiana Volunteers, 1861-1865
by James P. Gannon

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,Jed Marum sans cookie
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 10:42 AM

that was me, above, without my cookie, somehow ...

Here's a link to my collection of Civil War songs and stories. There are quick loading, lo-fi sound samples too.

Fighting Tigers of Ireland

Ditto on Kinkaid comments above -- and thanks Tom!

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:00 AM

and Bonnie Shaljean ... in the Fredricksburg battle you describe above, the Irish Confederate regiments who were shooting down their 'cousins' on the Union side were cheering them, as the shot them down. In the James Gannon book I listed above, he retold of the tears and cheers the Irish Confederates poured out for their fellow Irishmen enemies in blue. It was, by all accounts I've read a profoundly moving scene.

One of the other sonsg from the era, "Honest Pat Murphy of Meagher's Brigade" has a couple of lines that lament,

"Och, murder!" says Pat
"'tis a shame for see
brothers fighting in
such a queer manner"

He goes on to say he'd be much happier to fight the English, and finishes later on saying that:

"If ever old Ireland
for freedom should strike
We'll a helping hand
offer quite freely
And the Stars and the Stipes
shall be seen
along side
the flag of the
land of Shillelagh"

In fact, that last verse really sums up the prevalent Irish immigrant feelings of the day when he says, surely America, after seeing the Irish fight will now recongnize the Irishman value:

"Surely Columbia can never forget
While valor and fame hold communion
How nobly the brave Irish Volunteers fought
In defense of the flag of our union."

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:01 AM

A couple of the Young Irelanders ended up officering on either side, as far as I remember.

So Oliver Cromwell fought in the Irich civil war, did he? I wonder was he a Stater or a Republican.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,Jed Marum sans cookie
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:01 AM

ooops me again above ... I better go find my cookie ...

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: DannyC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Anybody know where Jackie Small (I think it was him) got this (below)? I always assumed that he had crafted the song around some written piece that he had found somewhere. Sorry, I only recall this:

"Seven of our Irish boys came down by George's(?) St.
when one of them Yankee dogs they happened for to meet
he offered them employment in a brickyard near the town
and then he did invite them all their names to write down.

he took them to an alehouse where they had drinks galore
and such an entertainment the boys had never seen before
and when he thought he had them drunk then this to them did say
"You're enlisted now, you're soldiers boys. Defend your country."

Twelve Yankees dressed in soldiers clothes came in without delay
they (lah dah dah dah dah dah dah) (a heros debt to pay(?)
Said, "Here's your commanding officer, he's enlisting you complete
ya need not think but to resist - we have you five to three."

They looked at one another and one of them did say
"Twas never to join your army we came to Americay
but to seek for better bread and board as manys the man before
and that's the only reason we left the shore."

Their Irish blood began to boil it made them Yankees frown
as soon as they could strike a blow they knocked them Yankees down
with bloody head and broken bones they'll mind 'em ever more
fromthe swing of sweet shilleleagh that they brought from Erin's shore

************************************

My version is ridden with errors but maybe somebody has a more complete hearing of it.   At any rate, it seems to fit with the thread.

Peace,

Danny

line break fixed...hope I got it right. If not, please post to let us know. - joe clone -

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Another aspect -- ugly -- were the "draft riots." During the U.S. civil war, these riots in New York were thinly disguised anti-black Irish gang violence with up to 100 killed and 1,000 injured, some in horrific circumstances.

Quote: "While competition for jobs was a source of hostility between many ethnic groups, no other group was so brutalized and dehumanized as Black people. Gangs of young men who fought each other over turf and honor, turned vicious and murderous when fighting Blacks. The "draft riots" were little more than a pogram [sic]."

more: Here

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: DannyC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:30 AM

Note to prior thread:

I hod put in a place holder in the second line of the third verse which the machine dropped.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Just another Dave
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

If you are looking to read about "the Irish soldier's view" of life in the Army at that time, this page has some suggestions:
http://www.28thmass.com/diaries.htm

(Shameless self-promo follows)

If it's music you are lookinig for follow the above link and then click on the "Music/Poetry" button.

:-)
Dave

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Ernest
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:32 AM

Derek Warfield of the Wolftones recorded an album called "Sons of Erin" containing Irish-American Songs of the Civil war too.

And Mick Moloneys book/cd "Far from the Shamrock Shore" got some as well.

Regards

Ernest

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 11:59 AM

For more on the song Danny quotes, see thread interp of 'seven Irishmen'.

For more on By the Hush, see (in particular) Lyr Add: Paddy's Lamentation

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: DannyC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:15 PM

Thank you Malcolm.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:36 PM

Wondering how many Irish who fought in the US Civil War had been in the British Army prior to emigration?

I had a great grandfather who was in the British Army when he was scheduled to go fight the Russians in 1854. He embarked for New York instead and immediately joined the U. S. Army. The unit came west and took part in the 'Navajo War.' During the Civil War, he was in the forces that opposed the Texans under Gen. Sibley in New Mexico. The fate of some of Sibley's soldiers is told in the song, "The Santa Fe Volunteer," written at the time. After that action, he transferred to the Commissary department, handling cattle.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:00 PM

I rather suspect that although hundreds of Irishmen joined the ACW willingly, most did it for a hot meal rather than idealism.

Q, the answer probably depends on how long you enlisted in the British army for. Can't remember offhand.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

Le Scaramouche, he took 'french leave' from the Brit army, so enlistment length not a factor.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:51 PM

I saw that yours did, I meant in general.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:53 PM

After the first two years of the American Civil War, the original enlistees were free to go home (having enlisted for two years).

The North in particular (well, I really don't know about the South) "guilted" new immigrants into enlisting. My brother is doing major research on a German Wisconsin regiment -- nothing has been published and little is known about them.

There seems to be more written about the Irish . At least, I've read many articles in The Boston Irish Reporter about the Irish in the Civil War.

Linn

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:57 PM

Guest 11:00 am (Jed?), how do the two accounts of Fredricksburg differ? The description of the battle (which is General Pickett's, not mine) does mention the combination of cheering and slaughter. In any case, I'll certainly be interested to read the Gannon book.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:02 PM

Thanks everyone for all the links and info. Mudcat rules!

The song is beginning to take shape. I'll post it when it's done.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:04 PM

Music played at the major battles was not uncommon. At Gettysburg, a British observer noted: "At the height of the cannonade, a Confederate band of music, between the cemetary and ourselves, began to play polkas and waltzes." The bands were from the 26th North Carolina and the 11th North Carolina Regiments. The band books of the former have been preserved. What is unusual about the band of the 26th is that it was a Moravian band from Salem, NC.

A Union band played for observers who had come in their carriages to observe the progress of th battle.

The Irish tune to "Gary Owen" was played by everybody, but it is known mostly for its association with the 7th Cavalry. "St. Patrick's Day in the Morning" also was popular with Union troops.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: DannyC
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 09:41 PM

I was surprised last weekend when my mother-in-law stated from the back seat, "That field there is where the Yankees camped back in the Civil War.   The Hazel Green people had to go hide their country hams or they'd a got 'em stolen."

We were motoring up from Campton on Rte. 191 and had reached the southern fringes of greater Hazel Green, Wolfe County, Kentucky. The broad patch is merely grazing land now. There's plenty of corn and 'baccer in nearby fields but the Yankees' field goes untilled.

When we reached the Buchanans, I asked Roger about the Yankee camp. He said, "The people around here had to hide their country hams." When I asked if they had hoisted the hams into trees, he motioned and said, "No, they hid them in the caves up near yonder cliffs."

I came to understand that at last the main troop came in from Ashland, and the Yankees and their growling stomachs went off south and west to win their glory.

I had a quiet laff on the way home, conjuring hungry Yankees, and caves and cliffs and wars and Osama (not that a ham would be of any use to him).   I suppose war's glory bounced over Hazel Green like a skipping stone.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,cookieless Jed
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:09 AM

Bonnie Shaljean - the accounts you and I noted do not differ. Other Irish Confederate regiments, including Gannon's 6th Louisiana were at Fredricksburg and reacted the same way as the 24th Georgia. I hope you do read the Gannon history. Great book.

Le Scaramouche tens of thousands of Irishmen joined the ACW willingly and for mostly for patriotic,idelaistic reasons. History and literature is quite certain about that. Late in the war, when consription was enacted, some were drafted. Joining for "a hot meal" was simply not part of the picture.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:52 AM

Cynical, cynical me. Pickett's account of Fredericksburg was written at the height of the sentimental age in America, when writers in a pop Romantic daze routinely emphasized noble idealism at the expense of sordid reality. (The "Custer myth" is an apt example.)

My reading of human nature suggests that those Confederate Irishmen were more likely cheering at the effectiveness of their own fire on the Union Army, blowing gaps in the formations even as they approached to within "25 paces of the wall," than at the bravery the enemy exhibited.

Sympathy for an enemy's courage and losses usually comes after the battle - if it comes at all. Cheering an advancing enemy coming straight for you while his cannon fire rains down on your head strikes me as too idealistic for actual human beings.

BTW, the movie "Gods and Generals" (a 19th C. film if ever there was one) did a great job with the battle of Fredericksburg.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

The anti-black Irish riots, etc, have a deeper and darker provenance. Search out an article by David McWilliams in the Sunday Business Post (www.thepost.ie), where he tracks the fact that a high proportion of prostitutes in New York in the times after the 1840 Famine were "Gaelic-speaking Irish".

McWilliams says in the article that many of the woman "married up", as the saying goes, by marrying ex-slaves, well-qualified black carpenters and plumbers and craftsmen of various qualifications, who had gone to New York and similar places on the granting of freedome.

So anti-black feeling may have been as much "those swines are taking our women" as "those swines are taking our jobs".

When you think of the current black vision of Irish names as inevitably a cruel remnant of slavery by Irish masters, it's kind of ironic, eh?

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:32 PM

Tales of the fictional Scarlett O'Hara family to the contrary, there were never many Irish slaveowners.

The Scotch-Irish in the South (early immigants from Ulster) were mostly indentured servants who labored like slaves on the lowland planations unti they were able to head for the hills and become frontiersmen. These people didn't own slaves; they did all their work for themselves. A piddling small number may have risen to plantation-owner status, but they would have been the exception to the general rule.

The Gaelic (Catholic) Irish who came later were also poor folks, peasant farmers who became unskilled laborers upon arrival in the southern port cities, and they only began to arrive within a decade or two before the Civil War ~ hardly enough time for upward mobility.

I think Lighter is right on the money about all that cheering while gunning down the enemy. As a committed pacifist, I may be a bit jaundiced in my view, but I'm very skeptical whenever I read anything that romanticizes slaughter in such a manner. Like the man says, it was an era notable for highly idealized writing, and the authors are rarely men who were completely at risk in the front lines of a suicidal mission. They were officers, who of course were at some degree of risk, but not nearly so grave a risk as the men they ordered into battle.

Writings like Pickett's are of course part of the historical record ~ they were actually written at the time, and by actual witnesses to the events ~ but that doesn't mean that they do not reflect the prejudices and the wishful thinking of the writers who left them behind for us.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

It was a different time, and a different sensibility. I do not doubt that they cheered the courage of the Union troops even as they gunned them down. Many gallant gestures were made in those days, and many ruthless ones as well. The top officers on both sides had mostly served together as friends in the war against Mexico. The cameraderie they had experienced then gave them more than enough reason to appreciate the humanity of their opponents across the line, and that would have communicated itself to the ordinary soldiers too.

Similarly, in World War II, the Japanese (who were usually totally ruthless with their enemies) were known to stand at attention on the bridges of their warships and salute the sinking American, Dutch, and British Commonwealth vessels which had fought bravely against them. They were honoring the courage of the sailors who fought them. (this did not mean, however, that they spent much attention on rescuing those men from the water or treating them decently as prisoners...prisoners were thought to have lost their honor in the Japanese credo, and were therefore treated very badly in most cases).

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:41 PM

Ah, but those Japanese sailors were not under fire; what's more, they were performing something like a ceremonial obligation.   

I don't doubt that thoughtful men like Pickett were impressed, even moved, by the sacrificial courage of the enemy, but the idea that the hundreds of Confederate riflemen who *were* cheering did so for that reason - and not for the obvious and predictable one that they could see the attackers being stopped in their tracks, that's just too much for me to believe, no matter how one might wish it were so.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:04 PM

Lighter, these are not the stories made up by a few romantic soldiers in their memoirs. These are stories told by many many soldiers over and over in their letters home and in their diaries.

Seems to me wishing it not so flies in the face of the obvious and well known truth as told by many individuals to their loved ones at home, as well as by official dispatches by their commanders.

Reading as much history and as many personal memoirs as I have over the years, it is not difficult for me to believe or understand - and I thik Little Hawk's "different time, and a different sensibility" comments are right on. And the example he cites is a modern day example of a similar thing.

In modern times we easily underestimate the importance of the sense of duty and loyalty men of this generation had.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:46 PM

Okay, Jed, I'll believe it if you'll do me this favor. Quote to me one - no, make it *two,* since so many men were involved - *two* letters written home during the war, North or South, from *any* field of battle, that say essentially, "I was so moved by the bravery of the enemy that I cheered them even as I was shooting at them and their gunfire rained down on me."

If you can do that, I'll readily agree that Pickett's interpretation of the cheers he heard is probably correct. Seriously.

Here's a different example of reality vs. sentimentality. A Civil War veteran was asked how realistic he thought newspaper sketches were that showed regiments sweeping across fields on the attack in even rows, shoulder to shoulder, with all flags carried straight and high. His reply was, "God don't make men who can fight like that."

The story may be a myth, but it's food for thought. Ranks crossing a broad field had to advance slowly until nearly to the objective, and once enemy fire began to take its toll, the ranks would wobble and mix together in clotted masses as the survivors pushed on unevenly through clouds of smoke. Not a pretty picture - but that's my point. There is just no time for charity toward the enemy when he's trying to kill you.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:46 PM

Dave Kincaid's recordings, as mentioned above are very good. He does thorough research and produces a very handsome product. If you have the opportunity to see him live, don't pass it up. Click here for David Kincaid's webpage.

No Irish Need Apply by The Gallant Sons of Erin is very good too. The webpage for their recording is The Gallant Sons of Erin.

To confuse matters further, Folk-Legacy Records issued Irish in America: A Musical Record of the Irish People in the United States, 1780 - 1980 in 2000. That CD has 2 Irish songs from the U.S. Civil War, "The Irish Volunteer" and "Pat Murphy of the Irish Brigade" plus an Irish song from the Revolutionary War, "The Sons of Liberty." The webpage for that CD is Irish in America. It received some very good reviews, which you can read at that site.

The disclaimer should read that both Dave Kincaid and some of The Gallant Sons of Erin are friends of mine, and my friend Bob Conroy and I are the singers on Irish in America.   

Above, DannyC asked about a ballad known as "The Seven Irishmen." That's an old broadside ballad very closely associated with the late Irish traditional singer Joe Heaney. I second the suggestion above that Oliver John "O.J." Abbott was the fountain source of "By the Hush." The late Frank Harte sang "By the Hush" and "The Plains of Waterloo," another song recorded by O.J. Abbott, an Ottawa Valley lumberman and a very important Canadian traditional singer. Virtually everyone in Ireland would've had those songs through Frank and Frank would have to have heard them sung by Mr. Abbott.

All the best,
Dan Milner

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:26 PM

My new song, Dreams and High Hopes is here.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:23 AM

Owen Parry's novel "Bold Sons of Erin" should be out in paperback now. It concerns the Irish in the Civil war, particularly General Meagher, who escaped from an Australian penal colony, came to The U.S.A. and led the Irish Brigade. There's another character to research, and I believe there are both Australian and American ballads about Meagher.
My great grandfather, the son of Irish immigrants, served as a messenger boy for Hood's Texans. The family didn't have enough money to afford slaves. But he was an Irish boy and there was a fight on. He and his mother came north after the war, and me married the daughter of abolitionists.

Subject: RE: Irish in Civil War? (USA)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:42 PM

Lighter, you seem to be making the assumption that the Union soldiers were firing upon the Confederates as they advanced. But it doesn't seem so, from the tone of Pickett's narrative. It sounds as though the Unionists had to get within range before they could fight, and that they were marching to what everyone – on both sides – knew was their deaths. Pickett calls it "suicide" which suggests a fatal inequality of power, giving more an image of doomed determination than of aggression. Your own well-worded description struck me the same way: "Ranks crossing a broad field had to advance slowly until nearly to the objective, and once enemy fire began to take its toll, the ranks would wobble and mix together in clotted masses as the survivors pushed on unevenly through clouds of smoke… There is just no time for charity toward the enemy when he's trying to kill you." But it looks like the ranks crossing the field were getting killed rather than doing the killing. If you're the cat and the other guy is the mouse, you can sometimes afford to be magnanimous.   

Also, how practicable was it in the 1860s to "rain cannon fire" while in motion? (That's not a rhetorical question – I really don't know; but the little I remember about large 19th-century weapons makes me think they were treacherously awkward to manoeuvre, even if the troops had the luxury of smooth ground.) The Unionists had to keep moving. All the Rebels had to do was wait for them and pick them off.

I used to work in the rare documents and letters department of an antiquarian book shop (Goodspeed's, Beacon Street, Boston; back in the early 70s) and I once had a packet of letters from a Civil War soldier land on my desk. I can't quote you chapter & verse, but there was a spirit of weary compassion about them - no gloating or jeering at the enemy, whose sufferings he obviously understood only too well.

As has already been pointed out, extraordinary times can call forth extraordinary responses.