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BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell.
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Subject: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:50 PM The fuel cell which runs electric vehicles and creates water for exhaust needs the holy grail fuel of pure hydrogen. This is the biggest stumbling block for the fuel cell to replace every internal combustion engine on Earth. I believe I have solved this problem. The beauty of the solution is that the answer is relatively musical. I have discovered that the answer is as simple as a tuning fork. There is a sound frequency that seperates water into H and O. The frequency is something like 300,000 Hz. A battery plus stored downhill gravity energy to charge the battery, vibrates the tuning fork and voila you use the water from exhaust to feed the tuning fork chamber. The chamber never turns off and the stored H is not under high pressure. At the "pump" your generated H can be condensed into your high pressure tank. There you have it world, I Don Hakman have solved your energy problems...or not. One thing for sure... Days when I find that I am particularly inventive are usually followed by several days of migraine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:31 PM Yeah, but there's also the storage of the hydrogen. The safe storage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Bunnahabhain Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:17 PM So you use the battery to run the tuning fork to produce the Hydrogen to run the fuel cell? Right.... The only sensible way to produce Hydrogen for fuel cell use is via electrolysis. You need clean electricity for this, be it Fission, Fusion, Tidal or Solar. Storing Hydrogen safely is just an engineering problem, which can be solved. Petrol needs careful handling as well, but we're used to it. See prvious thread- "oil will run out" www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=66696#1395118 |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:23 PM Tongue firmly in cheek, right? Even if the separation could be achieved with sound waves (300Hz is the old VHS frequency, I don't recall water splitting when I turned on my radio... ) where would the energy for pressurizing the H come from (at least 500 psi/350 bar)? If you have a prepetual motion machine you should get in touch with James Randi ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:27 PM dS = dQ/(T1 - T2)????? Even if the tuning fork produces a molecular separation of the water into H2 and O2, there is the problem of obtaining transport of the separated molecules to the separate sides of the Fuel Cell membrane (in common kinds of fuel cells). If you leave "separated" H2 and O2 mixed together in the same container, you will eventually - by accident or by intent - produce the semi-spontaneous chemical reaction known by the technical name "BOOOOOOM!!" or not? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:59 PM Pinklad I did not post the actual frequency for H2O seperation. A woman scientist in Chicago worked this out 30 years ago. The clean energy will come from large generating plants that use this H production and fuel cell technology. Perpetual motion claims are a reaction I anticipated. The energies of molecular bonds and the electrical potentials of the fuel cell are not equal. Also I think the storage tanks for hydrogen cars is actually 5000 Lbs per sq. inch. .......................... JonKan, I wish I spoke math but to my negligence I do not. I don't think the seperation problem is difficult. What might be difficult is a practical H storage bladder/balloon and of course, if the actual amount of H this technique generates is effective for the needs of the vehicle. As far as booms go, H is relatively not half as explosive as gasoline or propane. .................................... Bunahabain, Sensible electrolosis is sensible until a more efficient way comes along. I believe my way is far more energy efficient. Partly because the vibration uses very little electricity and partly due to the special shape of the chamber which doubles the efficiency of the desired frequency. ........................ Rapaire, Could you please head up the commitee to create a cost benefit study of the "safe enough" safe storage problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:05 PM Metal hydrides will work, and are working. The problem is how to safely store ENOUGH hydrogen. See the PDF here. you might also want to look through the earlier screens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: CarolC Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM Fission = "clean electricity"? I don't think so. At least not using current technologies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:12 PM btw, fusion plasma reaction research made a big breakthrough just weeks ago. They think they have a sustainable reaction by just making the whole containment chamber larger. Rapaire, I hope the EPA won't condemn metal hydride facilities for pollution. more likely the petroleum industry will do their enemicable worst to slow the progress of H tech, even though they have recently made large investments in this initial turn around technology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: CarolC Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:24 PM My guess is that the existing fossil fuel industry will try to pull a "Bill Gates" with the hydrogen fuel technology, ie: do everything in their power to own and control as much of it as possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jul 05 - 03:30 PM The best energy source would be fusion -- it could even use the current nuclear wastes as fuel, converting them into other, non-nasty, things. Support fusion research -- the US government did until the Tokamak got too close to actually working and it got mothballed. (I'm also not yet clear as to why we simply don't mix nuclear waste with concrete and cast it into giant cubes about, oh, 10 meters on a side. It could be stored in a desert area, above ground, and would be available for future use if needed. It would be difficult to steal, and anyone who wanted to mess with it would get exactly what they deserved.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM OK, I'm getting confused by some of the vagueries. We're not talking about 'cold' fusion, are we? Perpetual motion claims are a reaction I anticipated. Good pun! The energies of molecular bonds and the electrical potentials of the fuel cell are not equal. Basic laws of physics state that 'for each and every action, etc' so input = or > output. The trick is to get a cheap source of input (the least work). It will always be equal or be greater than the output. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM Most of the people who are working really hard on fuel cell devices have pretty much discarded the notion of storing and carrying compressed hydrogen gas as a fuel. There are some serious heat balance and peripheral power problems with liquified hydrogen, although a very few "experts" seem to think that it can be made practical. A very few years ago most of the research was on metal hydride storage, where the hydrogen is combined with a suitable metal as hydride, and is simply "boiled out" as needed. Extraction of the hydrogen from the hydride generally requires fairly high temperatures, so there's a definite crash safety concern for vehicle use. Technical solutions may exist there, but the more serious concern is that nearly all of the suitable metals are heavy ones, and processing the massive quantities required for useful distribution in vehicles would be a serious environmental problem. Current fuel cell research and developments mostly center around using a liquid fuel, most likely methanol, with "catalytic reforming" to generate/separate the hydrogen used by the fuel cell. Some fairly efficient regenerators have been demonstrated, and there are abundant theories about how the efficiencies can be improved. The "best" catalysts present some of the same environmental concerns as for the metal hydride storage systems, and some are in rather limited supply; but some "pretty good" alternative materials are known that may present lesser problems. Although methanol can be made from a number of crops, and is often touted as a "renewable energy source" it's not altogether clear that it's that ecologically sound. Most of the crops that are most efficient for production of methanol, as currently grown, require fairly substantial fertilization to get acceptable yields; and many of the commonly used fertilizers are based on or require consumption of petroleum products. Most of the best ethanol source crops are also water intensive, and the availability of water for irrigation is almost as critical now as the dwindling of our petroleum resources. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: JohnInKansas Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM I must apologize for my failure to reply to earlier comments. H is relatively not half as explosive as gasoline or propane None of these, hydrogen, gasoline, or propane, is explosive alone. It's only when they are mixed with oxygen that they are a hazard. Any of the three, at low pressures and mixed with oxygen, will react by deflagration, i.e. with a flame that progresses from the ignition point at moderate speed through the mixture. While a significant amount of heat and some rise in pressure may be produced, this is not an "explosion." At low pressures, hydrogen may in fact be a little harder to ignite than propane, but probably lights off a little easier than gasoline. Any of the three can be made to "explode" (detonate) if mixed with oxygen and compressed sufficiently before being ignited. (Think engine knock here.) This is unlikely to happen unintentionally with gasoline or propane, since they can be stored and handled at ambient or relatively low pressures. Any useful amount of gaseous hydrogen stored in a reasonable volume will almost necessarily be at a pressure high enough to detonate if ignited with sufficient oxygen present. Under normal handling conditions, hydrogen is the only one of the three likely to "explode," although they all will burn. On technical grounds, your statement is not really correct. All three fuels present somewhat similar problems in safe handling; but most experts do consider gaseous hydrogen significantly more hazardous than the others, principally because it must be at relatively high pressure (a hazard by itself) in addition to all of the other hazards associated with more conventional flammable fuels. I don't think the seperation problem is difficult. Such separations are considered one of the most difficult problems of chemistry and thermodynamics. Quite some time ago James Clerk Maxwell proposed the thought experiment in which a little demon stood by a hole between two chambers and threw all the "cool molecules" into the other chamber. The variation in "temperature" of individual molecules within a gas is such that the demon would soon produce one very cold can full of molecules and one very hot can of molecules. Since separating molecules by molecular weight rather than by temperature can be imagined about as simply, there's no difference in principle between the two separation problems. Any flow of heat (transfer of enthalpy) from higher temperature to lower can run an engine. If you've discovered and tamed Maxwell's demon, i.e discovered how to do the separation of your gases, you don't need any fuel. (so now I'm the demon's advocate here?) Sufficiency of the H2 and it's storage has been pretty generally discussed, although we're still waiting for the answers. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: jpk Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM one thing to think about,what is all that water vapor[yes it will put a lot of vapor into the air]going to do to the enviroment,ice age maybe or will it turn us into another venus[water vapor is large factor in the high temp. of venus's surface] every so called solution may have unseen efects. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:30 PM Ah, jpk: The atmosphere of Venus is composed of about 96% carbon dioxide, with most of the remainder being nitrogen. The atmosphere appears to be relatively clear until the cloud deck starts about 50 km above the surface. The clouds are composed of sulphuric acid and various other corrosive compounds, and the atmosphere contains little water. The pressure of the atmosphere is about 90 times that of the Earth at the surface, and the surface temperatures on Venus are around 500 degrees Celsius, exceeding that of Mercury and hot enough to melt soft metals. Calculations indicate that for the temperatures to be so high there must be a mechanism in the Venusian atmosphere that traps solar radiation very effectively. The idea that Venus had high degrees of water in the atmosphere was exploded years ago when the first probes (Russian, I think) descended to the planetary surface. A shame, as it put the quietus to a lot of great science fiction stories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:57 PM As to JiK's comments about explosiveness, remember that compressed oxygen cylinders cannot use any lubrication on the threads - the pressure alone at room temperature is sufficient to cause an explosion sooner or later. I seem to remember that Asimov wrote an 'SF' novel that used that as a plot device. And as for fission, the walls of the reaction chamber have a limited life - they need to be dismantled and taken away for safe storage after a few years as the material absorbs neutrons and this causes the surrounding shielding to mutate into radioactive isotopes of various differing new elements. Of course, I wonder if you could turn lead into gold this way.... could help turn a profit - till the world market is saturated... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM Nah, they're the same old elements we know and love. They're just different (and not necessarily radioactive) isotopes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM James Randi's mouth is a perpetual motion machine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Paul Burke Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:43 AM Unless there's some unknown nuclear reaction involved, the "sound frequency separation" of water will take more energy than you get back by burning the hydrogen and oxygen. That's one of the basic laws of physics, and can be paraphrased as "there's no free lunch". So the storage becomes academic. Of course, some people (including Cambridge University's Professor Josephson) believe that there IS a cold fusion reaction available simply and economically. As he discovered the Josephson junction, he must know far more about physics than I ever will, but as he is also currently investigating the paranormal, there's some possibility that he's gone off his trump, as happens with many clever people. Look at Bill Shockley, who invented the transistor, but ended up as a proponent of racist eugenics. I'd like it to be true (cold fusion, not racist eugenics). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:26 AM I suspect room-temperature fusion has more promise than the original Pons-Fleischman flap indicated. There have been a number of followups in Japan and the U.S. that have looked promising and have actually produced tritium at temperatures less than 180F. The issue of evolving this research into an application and evolving such an application into something safe, reliable and easily replicable is another question altogether. It is a long way from Col. Edwin Drake's tar-pit oil discovery to a corner Amoco station. How much time do we have? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Bunnahabhain Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:37 AM Hydrogen gas is much more explosive than either petrol or propane. Explosive ranges ( % fuel in in air to produce an explosive mixture) Petrol: Min 8%, Max 12%. Propane: Min 10%, Max 15%. ( Not too sure about this one) Hydrogen: Min 25%, Max 75%. Those are the approximate limits for a mixture that can detonate. Outside of these, you can a have a mixture that may deflagrate, but not detonate. Can't remember if it's by weight or by volume, but either way, H2 has a much wider range than the others. Oh yes, jpk. Check what comes out of a car exaust at the minute. CO2, a few trace gasses, and alot of water vapour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: GUEST,John J Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:42 AM 300,000Hz (ie 300kHz) or 300Hz? 300Hz is audible. 300kHz ain't, even pussy cats and doggies can't hear that high. You're well up into RF (=1000m in the Long Wave band). Generating 300kHz is easy-peasy, even at power. The problems arise when you want to convert these oscillations into audio. Finding an effective audio transducer for that frequency isn't going to be easy and it certainly won't be efficient. I can't comment on the chemistry, I know nowt about it. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: GUEST Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:38 PM Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. In fact, we have plenty of it right here in our solar system. The sun is mostly hydrogen. So, we can just mine the sun and bring the hydrogen to earth. Simple, isn't it. G. W. Bush |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: MMario Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM better to mine from the gas planets - less energy required to transport it to earth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:52 PM Of course we could sign that Kyoto thing and learn to live with less ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: GUEST Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:19 PM Mmario: Are you one of them liberal obstructionisers or what? It's dark on Jupiter or Saturn and we'd have to have lights and they would use up more energy than we would get. There's plenty of light on the sun. See? G. W. Bush |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: jpk Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM ok rapaire you got me on that one,i make an excuse of day dreaming in the 60s sf,still an abundance of water vapor would have a marked cooling effect[more than likly]do to the reflectivty of the clould layer.possible. as to the limits on lubs being used on o2,most lubs that the unknowing would use or flamable,and in the rich o2 enviroment at high pressure would cause a fire,not an explosion,non flamable lubs like teflon are used all the time.mistakes can be dangerous though,watched a plane burn to the ground because someone used a scharder valve in a gox[gassous ox system instead of liquid,bad in either]system thet had been removed from a hyd system,he thought it was clean.suprise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:15 PM We need an engine that will run on garbage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:24 PM What we flippin need IS: An engine that will run on farts. Lots and lots of beans. Free beer. Girls who don't say "no". A new flag that has a beaver on it. A bottomless beer bottle. A pizza that has zippers around the slices, so ya don't have to mess with it too much. A printing press in every flippin' basement and a brewery on every flippin' corner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:42 PM TANSTAAFL!! and don't forget it! When I mentioned fusion I wasn't thinking of cold fusion, although that would be great. I meant Ye Olde H3 + Neutron -> He sort of reaction that powers the Sun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:04 PM On nuclear powered submarines we used to split pure water into hydrogen and oxgyen using an electrolyser. The catalyst used was monethylamine which was very corrisive. The oxygen was then compressed into tanks for the life support systems and the hydrogen very carefully bled to sea. Nasty stuff hydrogen. Towards the end of WWII the Germans started experimenting with HTP, high test peroxide. This was used as a fuel in a closed cycle engine that could propell the submarine dived without resorting to running on battery powered electric motors. The RN took two of the captures submarines and based the design og HMSm Exlporer and Excalibur on them. The results were a bit iffy. Explorer became known in the fleet as Exploder as HTP can be unstable when it meets two dissimilar metals. Following a large explosion in Weymouth in the mid 50's she was scrapped and the RN went nuclear as a means of propulsion. The Soviet Navy still carried on using it as a torpedo propellant. If you recall the Kursk disaster that was caused by HTP leaking from a torpedo onto nearby metalwork and igniting as high levels of hydrogen were given off. The ignition caused the that torpeod and one next to it to explode blowing off the front end of the Kursk. The rest you know. To be safe hydrogen fuel cells need to be closed, the risks of explosions otherwise are quite high. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:29 PM Mining the sun would be difficult as it is so hot that the miners would demand too much in penalty payments, unless you did it at night. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Bobert Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:40 PM You be da man, Donuel!!! Hey, maybe folk music could be turned into hydrogen if it's played loud enough??? As fir yer little experiement tho... Me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule was messin' 'round one night... No, make that not me, but the Wes Ginny Slide Rule and, well, it was messin' with water and a tunin' fork and blew the heck outta my recordin' studio... Ever since I don't let the WGSR nowhere near tunin' forks or water... But when it comes to inventions, hey I got a sure fire way of makin' you as young as you wanta be. I sho nuff do and no water 'er tuning forks involved... And it is foolproof!!! Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 08:15 AM In a demonstration of the explosive nature of fuels in same sized containment tamks I watched a gasoline cylinder a propane tank and a hydrogen tank, all shot with a high power rifle and explode. The Hydrogen tank was a bluish yet virtual flameless poof, the gas tank wxploded in flames as you expect and the propane under pressure not only had the largest explosion but traveled 50 yards. I am not talking about explosive efficiency here but the relative behavior of these fuels in the real world of catastrophic loss of containment and explosion. ...................................... The heart of the question as Paul states it is: "Unless there's some unknown nuclear reaction involved, the "sound frequency separation" of water will take more energy than you get back by burning the hydrogen and oxygen. That's one of the basic laws of physics" 1 Even the most casual observer will notice that we are not talking about equal and opposite reactions. We are talking about weak molecular bonds vs the electric potential. 2 By doulbing the efficiency of the acoustic seperation chamber one enhances the H production process to extraordinary proportions. 3 If we were able to "easily" extract only the electic potential on an ATOMIC scale the mass of a penny would produce enough E to lift an aircraft carrier. But we are only talking about "lensing' the acoustic seperation of water molecules and then using the H in fuel cells that strip off the electron and send it into electric current around the cell to eventually meet up with the 8 electron Oxygen and reunite as water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:54 AM It was so strange that the last post where I explained in detail the efficiency of the acoustic chamber and its current problem did not appear. I will view that as providence to not repost the nuts and bolts of this process but I welcome anyone to: 1 Bet against my success 2 That the acoustic production of H fuel will reveal a profit in both energy outout vs energy input as well as econonomic profit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: mooman Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:01 AM There is certainly some strange science being expounded in this thread! Peace moo |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Paul Burke Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:33 AM 1 Even the most casual observer will notice that we are not talking about equal and opposite reactions. We are talking about weak molecular bonds vs the electric potential. It doesn't matter whether you regard the bonds as electrical or mechanical, the energy is the same. Weak bonds are easily separated, and will produce a small amount of energy when they re- form. The net energy of the circular process is exactly zero. But any real process will not just separate the bonds, but heat up the liquid/gas/equipment as well. So you lose. Or have you some magical means of saying: HA! I tell you that you are a weak bond NOW! But HO! when you reform it will be as a deep electrical potential well, and you will give me LOTS of energy back! Betting? If it works, I will buy you a musical instrument of your choice, even if it is a young female (or male) singer. If it turns out too work by magic, you will have discovered a new metaphysics, and will be so rich you won't need to collect. If it turns out to be cold fusion, likewise. If it DOESN'T work, what do I get? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM We are not seeking to get energy from the reforming of H2O. We are using the stripped electrons from H to create the electric current in the fuel cell. In fact we do not want the gases H and OH to reform in the acoustic chamber. When they do, the energy released is in the form of light called sonic luminesence. Mabe some of that energy could be recaptured with solar cells but that is not the point. There is a magnifying effect when ultrasonic energy is resounded in the chamber. In fact when more current is applied there is an exponential Energy effect in the chamber in the form of heat. And there is the rub. In the chamber we do not want excess heat that needs later cooling, we do not want too many reforming molecules or its luminous effect. We want seperate gases with a minmum input. There is a term called cold boiling (cavitation) which has nothing to do with cold fusion but cold boiling is basicly what we are doing in the chamber. Let me remind you that certain reactions have a much different output than its energy input. If you can not grasp this you will not grasp the rest. Sir Francis Newton can rest in peace knowing that his conservation of energy is not being violated here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 29 Jul 05 - 11:28 AM The word for that phenomenon is sonoluminescence, and it produces dramatic cavitation -- microscopic explosion -- as a result of sonic energy at certain frequencies. There's scads of data out there on it, but it hasn't been understood yet. Google the term "sonoluminecence" and you'll have a busy day. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Rapparee Date: 29 Jul 05 - 12:50 PM There's also thermoacoustic seperation. (No, it's not the divorce that results when a hot groupie is found with an acoustic guitarist.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:44 PM Rapaire, Filtering out various things via acoustic seperation is a great short cut for chemists. It may to too much to hope for that a sonic unit can be small enough to generate H within the vehical it powers. It may be that a factory sized acoustic unit would become more econmical than electrolosis. In practical terms I am only 10% into this project after 2 years. It is time to allow a team of great technical minds solve the hardware challenges. Do you know anybody like that who is not encumbered by corporate exclusivity clauses? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM Donuel: WOuld you PM me or email me the description you didn't post is possible? Nondisclosure assured. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Bunnahabhain Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:33 PM This science belongs on MOAB. If it's true, I'll double whatever Paul Burke is promising. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:38 PM Borrowed from 17th century acoustics, is the discovery that a certain kind of xxxxx xxxxx will lens sound at one end as intense as it is at the point of origin. Borrowed from a 1970s discovery of the cold cavitation of water into gases via acoustic vibration. Using a diaphram or spherical vibration source, the sound will be doing double the work when spaced correctly inside the xxx xxxxx chamber. An exotic shape of many joined xxxxx xxxxx with the vibration unit at the central interesection is also a possibility to multiply the effect 8 to 32 times. Overcoming reunification of the gases, excessive heating, seperate venting and safety are a few of a number of problems to be solved. I am making a digital 3D picture of the unit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:42 PM I don't need any more instruments. I have the Italian cello of my dreams, a great keyboard and I don't play guitar or mandoline well enough justify a nice Martin. What you don't know is that thousands of people can now hear due in part to the concept research I did in the 70s. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:57 PM As one of many relatively stupid people what I do have 1. is the belief in the possiblility to make something work. 1 1/2. knowing that a disbelief in the possibility of success is a common disability of many highly intelligent people.* 2. awareness that invention is not created in a linear fashion. *This in no way is meant to justify the stupidity and resulting disasters of GWB |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: jpk Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:26 PM the farmers and the distillers with the new energy bill ripoff of the u.s. consumer with its alky requirment.then again the coal plant that they want to build where i live,will have to be built to provide the power needed to distill the alky,maybe some good jobs there.is it worth it, no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 30 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM Donuel: Ignore the naysayers; they are either too ignorant or too locked-in to past technologies to be able to think through the description you are hinting at. I would give me eye teeth to see a prototype. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: skipy Date: 30 Jul 05 - 07:18 PM Storing enough hydrogen onboard a vehicle to achieve a driving range of greater than 300 miles is a significant challenge. On a weight basis, hydrogen has nearly three times the energy content of gasoline (120 MJ/kg for hydrogen versus 44 MJ/kg for gasoline). However, on a volume basis the situation is reversed (8 MJ/liter for liquid hydrogen versus 32 MJ/liter for gasoline). On-board hydrogen storage in the range of 5-13 kg H2 is required to encompass the full platform of light-duty vehicles. Hydrogen can be stored in a variety of ways, but for hydrogen to be a competitive fuels for vehicles, the hydrogen vehicle must be able to travel a comparable distance to conventional hydrocarbon-fueled vehicles. Hydrogen can be physically stored as either a gas or a liquid. Storage as a gas typically requires high-pressure tanks (5000-10,000 psi tank pressure). Storage of hydrogen as a liquid requires cryogenic temperatures, since the boiling point of hydrogen at one atmosphere pressure is -252.8ºC. Hydrogen can also be stored on the surfaces of solids (by adsorption) or within solids (by absorption). In adsorption, hydrogen is attached to the surface of a material either as hydrogen molecules or as hydrogen atoms. In absorption, hydrogen is dissociated into H-atoms and then the hydrogen atoms are incorporated into the solid lattice framework. Hydrogen storage in solids may make it possible to store larger quantities of hydrogen in smaller volumes at low pressure and at temperatures close to room temperature. It is also possible to achieve volumetric storage densities greater than liquid hydrogen because the hydrogen molecule is dissociated into atomic hydrogen within the metal hydride lattice structure. Finally, hydrogen can be stored through the reaction of hydrogen-containing materials with water (or other compounds such as alcohols). In this case, the hydrogen is effectively stored in both the material and in the water. The term "chemical hydrogen storage" or chemical hydrides is used to describe this form of hydrogen storage. It is also possible to store hydrogen in the chemical structures of liquids and solids. skipy |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 30 Jul 05 - 08:26 PM Skipy: Many thanks for that exposition. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 30 Jul 05 - 10:16 PM TITANIUM AND NANOTUBES IMPROVE FUEL CELL STORAGE CAPACITY July 26, 2005 – Researchers at the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and Turkey's Bilkent University discovered that titanium-crusted carbon nanotubes could meet two key requirements for efficient hydrogen storage: the abilities to latch on to hydrogen molecules in adequate numbers and to relinquish the hydrogen readily when heated. The U.S. FreedomCar Research Partnership, which features participation from the U.S. Department of Energy and U.S. automakers, requires a 6 percent minimum storage capacity. The researchers' single-walled carbon nanotubes, which are decorated with titanium or other transition metals, can amass a predicted 8 percent of the nanotubes' weight worth of hydrogen. Single-walled carbon nanotubes have been considered a candidate material for hydrogen storage by others in the past, but the 6 percent target has been an obstacle. According to calculations and models by the researchers, positioning a titanium atom above the center of hexagonally arranged carbon atoms appears to resolve this problem. The researchers discovered that interactions among carbon, titanium, and hydrogen give rise to unusual attractive forces. As a result, four hydrogen molecules can dock on a titanium atom by means of a unique chemical bond of modest strength, it appears. The four hydrogen molecules that link to the titanium atom are then relinquished readily when heated. Taner Yildirim, a NIST theorist, says that several forces at work within the geometric arrangement appear to play a role in the reversible tethering of hydrogen. As technology related to fuel cells continues to be refined, automakers are already sending fuel-cell vehicles onto the roads for testing. Automaker DaimlerChrysler has announced that its first hydrogen-powered fuel cell cars will enter the commercialization phase by 2010. The company currently has a fleet of 30 fuel cell buses running in daily service in ten European cities and is testing a fleet of 60 Mercedes-Benz fuel cell powered cars in Germany, Japan, Singapore, and the United States... From SmallTimes Magazine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Peace Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:21 PM One thing to keep in mind about Donuel. He is BRILLIANT. The man is a for-real genius, so I would be very hesitant to toss his ideas out just because. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:30 AM Dissolving a fuel gas in a liquid under pressure for storage has been going for a long time - acetylene bottles (for oxy welding/cutting) for instance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Bunnahabhain Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:41 AM Let me remind you that certain reactions have a much different output than its energy input. If you can not grasp this you will not grasp the rest. Th heat of formaton of water is -252.15 kcal/mole. To split it into hydrogen and oxygen , you must supply at least this much energy in some form. I will state this in the simplist possible terms. thermodynamics for all When water is formed from Oxygen and Hydrogen, energy is released. The bonds in the oxygen and hydrogen molecules were broken, and stronger bonds between the oxygen and hydrogen in the water molecules were formed. The energy released is the diffrence between these bond energies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 31 Jul 05 - 10:50 AM Bunn: Look into sonoluminescence. It is not yet explained, but it does annoy the hell out of conservation. It doesn't violate it, but it annoys it badly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 31 Jul 05 - 12:18 PM I thought a little perspective might be enjoyable here. These lines are from a lecture by R. Buckminster Fuller, and shows how impossible things have seemed before they came about: "The year I was born Marconi invented the wireless, but it did not get into any practical use until I was 12 years of age when the first steamship sends an S.O.S., its in distress, by wireless so think of it a great many miles and the world began to know the ship was in distress and ships began to rush to its aid. Absolutely unexpected! My father and mother would say "wireless! such nonsense!" And when I was three the electron was discovered, and nobody talked about that. It wasn't in any of the newspapers nobody was interested in electrons didn't know what an electron was that had been discovered. I was brought up that humanity would never get to the North Pole absolutely impossible, they'd never get to the South Pole; and our Mercator maps didn't even show anything... the Northern-most points were kind of a rugged line, but you didn't see or know anything up beyond that. When I was 14 man did get to the North Pole, and when I was 16 he got to the South Pole, so impossibles are happening. Like all other little boys, I was making paper darts, which you could make at school; and boys must have been making them for a very long time; and we were hoping we might be able to get to flying. But the parents, your parents were saying "Darling, it's very amusing for you to try that, but it is inherently impossible for man to fly. So when I was 7 the Wright brothers suddenly flew and my memory is vivid enough of seven to remember that for about a year the engineering societies were trying to prove it was a hoax because it was absolutely impossible for man to do that. So then, not only was there the radio, but when I was 23, which you think well I guess many in this room are not 23 yet when I was 23 the human voice came over the radio for the first time, and that was an incredible matter. When I was 27 we had the first licensed radio broadcasting. When I was 38 I was asked to go on an experimental TV program in New York where the Columbia Broadcasting had 70 sets in various scientists' and their Board of Directors' homes, and they had experimental programs going on, they didn't have any money for paying anybody. The man who ran it, Gilbert Seldes was a friend of mine, and ran the studio, and so, I often appeared on his program, but we don't have television operating in the United States until after World War II. So we're talking about when I was 45 when we had our first television. So this is very ... it couldn't be a more recent matter; and yet nobody thought at that time we were going to have ... they didn't know you were going to have transistors; they didn't know man was going to have satellites going around the earth; they didn't know we were going to have radio relay satellites, that we were going to be able to have programs coming out of any part of the earth, going to any other part of the earth. " |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: JohnInKansas Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:23 PM As an interesting side note, that should be better known: Foolestroupe: Dissolving a fuel gas in a liquid under pressure for storage has been going for a long time - acetylene bottles (for oxy welding/cutting) for instance. Much has been said about "how explosive" hydrogen, propane, and gasoline are. None of them by itself is explosive. You must have a mixture of any of these with oxygen and the mixtures are, under some conditions, explosive. The difficulties attending use of each depends in part on how easily you can prevent mixing with oxygen, and on how broad a range of mixtures can be "exploded." "Acetylene" alone and unmixed with anything else is explosive. The gas that's called acetylene is principally ethylene. If the pure gas is compressed (I believe the critical pressure is just over 200 psi) it can explode if subjected to shock, heat, electric discharge, or just about any other disturbance and does not require mixing with anything else to do so. Acetone/ethylene dissolved in acetone can be compressed to the typical few thousand psi commonly needed to get useful amounts of a gas into a manageably sized cylinder. An acetylene cylinder is pretty much full of carbon, which has no function except to retain acetone. When you put ethylene into it, the ethylene dissolves in the acetone and can be safely brought to the typical 3,000 to 5,000 psi commonly used. When you take ethylene out of the cylinder the acetone is retained by the carbon and most of it stays in the cylinder. If you "put a little bit of acetylene" in a container not equipped with an acetone reservoir - for example to take a bit home for a "home welding project" - there is a very good chance you will die. The same ethylene gas is produced when you drop solid "carbide" into water, and rather large "carbide generators" were fairly common in welding shops in earlier times. References to "carbide gas" are to the same ethylene as for "acetylene." Automatic mechanisms were intended to regulate the gas pressure by controlling the rate that rocks were fed in. Typical operating pressures were in the 100 - 120 psi range. At 150 psi, you might make a quick check to see if "something might be hung up" that you might knock loose, but 170 psi was "run like hell and shout loud" time. The Santa Fe Trailways Bus Maintenance Facility at Kip, Kansas was mostly "removed from the face of the earth" by a carbide generator explosion ca early 1930s. My ex father in law "ran like hell," and it was a favorite story. Of course ethylene/air (carbide gas/air, acetylene/air) mixtures are "explosive" at ambient pressures. It makes an impressive "bang." John |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Peace Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:43 PM I would hasten to add (thread drift here) that Sir Isaac Newton should also be remembered for having established the gold standard. The effects of that are as far-reaching as his explication of physical laws. More so in many ways, because physical laws 'had' to be discovered; economic laws are manipulated and employed or not. IMO. Let me ask you this: If I told you I have found a way to predict squares, would you believe me? That is, from 4 x 4 I can then tell you what 14 x 14 is equal to? It ain't rocket science, but it DID take me fifteen years to find. The notion of efficient energy is important because without the idea being kicked around, it ain't gonna be found. Thinking starts with dreams. New 'discoveries' start with dreams. Read the book, "Empire of the Stars". Science is science, but the great discoveries have started with dreams. They have been found in the face of opposition from established ways of thinking and in the face of entrenched ways of perceiving the 'world' around us. Keep dreaming, Donuel. The world needs such thoughts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:26 PM Thanks everyone for the critiques, detailed information, historic submarine technology, praise and even the yelling. Necessity is the mother of invention. Be I the bastard son of that mother or dreamer of wrong dreams I feel I am on to something here just as strongly as I did when I first heard a deaf guitarist playing at RIT and I thought to myself "how wonderful it would be if he could hear what he was playing.". As a result of that inspiration I conceptualized a simple microphone and transducer to focus a signal from outside the scull on the inner ear in frequencies that nerve signals use. I did some more work and took it the largest corporation in town, Kodak. They saw the potential, put a tiger team on it and got some real hardware set for testing. They then sold the project and rights to Litton Industries. Countless thousands of experts and doctors did the real life work to actually make a cochlear stimulator work. Basicly they implanted part of it. My original concept method actually caused a confusion of sensations among many senses and not just hearing. That is called synthesia. For my brief efforts I had an honorary dinner on Kodak's tab. Such is the remuneration for private concept work. That is why I want to take the University route for help this time. If I am entirely wrong about the potential of acoustic H generation, let the trumpet sound and the walls fall down. But if I am partially right there will be one less cause for economic war. There might be peace where there may have been war. War will undoubtedly find a different/same excuse; greed. I don't know about you but it sure would feel good to be able to tell the Arabs "shove your oil up your royal butts". The information volunteered so far has been very helpful and motivational. I am betting the ranch that acoustic lensing will work. We are have been lensing light for hundreds of years. We are now making earth based telescopes that will outperform the Hubble space telescope. They will be able to see a man on the moon if a 6ft man were there. They will be able to see other planets in other solar systems directly. 2 of these lenses are be being made in the US. Not to be outdone Europe is making an absurdly large telescope that will dwarf both of the extremely large telescopes in the US put together. We can lens sound to do remarkable work as well. If I am wrong I'll buy you a drink and toast Jules Verne for being ahead of his time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Peace Date: 31 Jul 05 - 11:29 PM Hell, Donuel. I'll buy YOU the drink just for the pleasure of meeting you. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: robomatic Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:55 AM Donuel, name the brand of aluminum foil you'd like for your next hat. Otherwise, it's back to Reynolds, baby. Oh, and I 'spect you meant to write skull, not scull, right? 'course, then you'd have to have at least one of your oars in the water, right? write! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Grab Date: 01 Aug 05 - 05:00 AM Amos, re that Bucky Fuller quote:- Like all other little boys, I was making paper darts, which you could make at school; and boys must have been making them for a very long time; and we were hoping we might be able to get to flying. But the parents, your parents were saying "Darling, it's very amusing for you to try that, but it is inherently impossible for man to fly. So when I was 7 the Wright brothers suddenly flew and my memory is vivid enough of seven to remember that for about a year the engineering societies were trying to prove it was a hoax because it was absolutely impossible for man to do that. I hope that Fuller's memory is inaccurate, and/or that people really weren't that stupid back then. Lillienthal and Cayley had proved pretty comprehensively several decades earlier that a person could glide very easily (assuming they didn't mind risking their neck - they weren't very stable!). Balloons had been working since Mongolfier a century earlier. And whilst we remember the Wright brothers as the ones that succeeded, there was a good 30-40 year period where zillions of rich dilletantes were taking Cayley and Lillienthal's principles and marrying them to the lightest engines they could find - steam engines wouldn't work, but Benz and his mates got 4-stroke engines working and suddenly there was something that might get it there. With that going on, it was just a matter of time before someone combined enthusiasm and engineering to make it work. Let me remind you that certain reactions have a much different output than its energy input. If you can not grasp this you will not grasp the rest. That's fine. But that only holds true where there is stored energy - like a barrel hoisted up on a rope, you can use the stored energy to do things (as in, famously, pulling yourself up as the barrel falls). Suppose you start with the barrel on the ground and you want to hoist it up, you need to *add* energy. And that's the situation you're in with splitting hydrogen. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Paul Burke Date: 01 Aug 05 - 07:47 AM like a barrel hoisted up on a rope, you can use the stored energy to do things (as in, famously, pulling yourself up as the barrel falls). Brilliantly brought on topic for the Cat. But while chemical/ electrical (ther's really no difference) splitting is impossible as a source of energy, a nuclear reaction of some sort is not. Energy-from-water schemes have been proposed, and some have claimed success, over many years. I played with the idea once that they might not all be crank schemes, and looked for a possible reaction. One that initially looked promising was oxygen 16 capturing slow thermal neutrons to become oxygen 17- that's a stable isotope. There's a modest energy output, and if it worked it would be perfectly usable, and probably very safe indeed. Sadly, it seems that oxygen 16 nuclei are virtually invisible to neutrons, and that there'd be a better chance of them hitting hydrogen to make helium- that probability is virtually zero. So, sadly, no free energy, and no Nobel prize for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Torctgyd Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:36 AM What's the problem with using hydrogen as a fuel in an internal combustion engine? We've got propane and LPG powered engines; what's so complicated about using hydrogen as a fuel? And if the fuel tank leaks (unlike carbon based fuels) the hydrogen is lighter than air so will float off into the atmosphere. The only problem would be in unventilated storage areas. As for the energy needed to produce the hydrogen, why not use hydro-electric power plants? Natural gas and other fuel gases are transported around in pipes from huge gas mains to the small bore pipes in your house and are these any less likely to explode than hydrogen. I don't know too much about fuel cells and how efficient and environmentally friendly they are but: HYDROGEN IS THE ANSWER!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:59 AM It's not the USING - it's the STORING & TRANSPORTING it economically - some problems of which are detailed above. During WWII, some cars ran around with a big balloon above them that carried the gas they used for fuel, generated in the boot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:12 AM Thats the spirit. As for efficiency, the Nuclear energy programs do not seem to include the cost of cancers, mining, digging out mountains to store the waste... etc. They call it cheap clean and efficient in one quick breath. that a by product of nuclear energy is an arsenal of nuclear weapons from H bombs down to DU artillary shells is probably th impetus of their outlandish lies. ......... OK There is no free lunch... you have to pay the devil its due... all things being equal, nothing is... There is a cleaner and better solution even if we do have to supplement it with hydroelectric and the damage it causes to rivers. but robo has a better idea. I should quit and die. now be a good lad and go do something useful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:55 AM Donuel: I expect you know this but there is alot of prior art out there on both sides of this idea -- acoustic lensing used to focus the location a sound appears, for example, and the use of cavitation from acoustic energy. I think you are onto something. Get that prototype, dude! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:47 AM "During WWII, some cars ran around with a big balloon above them that carried the gas they used for fuel, generated in the boot. " I had no idea. My dad told me about bicycles that would wind a spring when going downhill so it would give you a boast later on. It seems that ideas are forgotten too fast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Grab Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:48 PM Hydrogen isn't a danger on its own. It's not even very flammable (it was the outer skin of the Hindenburg that burned and not the hydrogen inside). The problem is that it has a very low energy density - that is, you have to burn (or otherwise react) an awful lot of it to get significant energy out of it. That's the advantage of gasoline - energy-wise it's practically perfect because it has such a high energy density (shame about the other crap in there though). So you need a lot of hydrogen to match a tank of gas. No problems, let's squash it up a bit. Turns out that "squashing it up" means really, really, *really* serious pressures! The problem now is threefold. Firstly, you need a massively strong tank to take the pressures. Secondly, it takes some significant energy to get the hydrogen up to that pressure, which reduces overall energy efficiency. And thirdly, if your tank isn't *quite* massively strong enough, or if it gets a nudge that damages it, a large amount of hydrogen gas at some insane pressure will blow the tank apart into a zillion pieces, all of which will introduce themselves to anyone within some distance with real enthusiasm and vigour... There are various efforts to store hydrogen better. There does seem to be an odd effect that carbon nanotubes have roughly a hydrogen-atom-sized hole down the middle, so that the hydrogen atoms will slot themselves neatly down the tubes like peas in a pod, and this doesn't seem to require nearly as much energy. That's still pure research though, because no-one has yet found a good way of mass-producing long carbon nanotubes. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:54 PM From Nanotechweb: Extra-long carbon nanotubes set new record 20 September 2004 Researchers at Los Alamos National Laboratory and Duke University, both in the US, have created, at four centimetres long, what they believe is the world's longest single-walled carbon nanotube. The team hopes it may ultimately be able to grow nanotubes continuously. "Although this discovery is really only a beginning, the continued development of longer length carbon nanotubes could result in nearly endless applications," said Yuntian Zhu of Los Alamos. "Actually, the potential uses for long carbon nanotubes are probably limited only by our imagination." According to the researchers, applications for long single-walled carbon nanotubes could include electronic devices, microelectromechanical systems, biosensors, scaffolding for the growth of neurones, robotics, space exploration, personal armour and sporting goods. " Funny they didn't mention hydrogen, but I suspect this is typical insulation among our disparate fields of effort. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:46 PM It has been suggested that nanotubes are strong enough to make an elevator cable to geo stationary orbit. ........... My acoustic lens looks like a blastopore* from the outside. *(embrionic stem cell) http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/H.jpg.jpg 4 lens and 8 lens look relatively similar but my computer is not powerful enough to show the internal dynamics for more than 4 lens. My ray tracing computer program seems to be indicating that there is a power drop off as more chambers are added but I had to lower internal reflectivity after 2 lens to save computing time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 04:22 PM Beautiful design concepts, D. The real thing here is, as far as I know, no-one has explored the effect of multiple source sono-luminescent frequencies. The ultrasound freqs could easily intersect in such a way as to produce multiples and harmonics, and no telling what that does. I would be really interested to hear if you get a prototype up and what kind of observations you make with it... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: GUEST Date: 01 Aug 05 - 08:44 PM Dude-uel ... if you really think you're on to something, then get a patent on the idea now. Even if you don't get a prototype up and running, if someone else does, they'll have to pay you for use of your idea...or oil corporations could buy your idea for a handsome sum and shelve it so we can continue to pay through the nose - in more ways than one - for gasoline. Either way, you stand to come out better than the rest of us sorry slobs. Good luck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:47 PM For 3 countries the patent cost is $8,000. I'm using the patent lawyer that my Taiwan composer friend used for a violin invention... and probably a different guy if we ever need to do battle. a pretty but inefficient design http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/H33.jpg A better lense. http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/H1a.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/H2a.jpg PS my original idea of the E source being at one end, sucked big time. The center seems best. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:29 PM COncur. Nice graphics, man! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:59 PM Inspirational or delusional, in the beginning anything seems possible. I'll cap this one with a poem pic. .................................. What if I told you we could power the world with a song we can not hear. Would you believe me? What if I told you we could boil water cold and siphon hydrogen. I have made a lense for sounds so high they split H2O The walls shall come tumbling down when we let the trumpet blow. Composing energy of sheer beauty with electricity from the sea. I'm sure you don't believe me yet That is where I'll be, http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/H33.jpg Don Hakman |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Peace Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:11 AM http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/H33.jpg BEAUTIFUL. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:47 AM I have made a star in my garage, All built of fire and song. The prototype is still too large And the wavelengths must be jigher. But when I've finished every part And drives all your city's cars, Then the song will warm your home, your hearth With the singing, The singing of the stars. A Rootin' for ya, Donuel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Donuel Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:23 PM I heard that Stanford U is now looking into acoustic production of H |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Bill D Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:30 PM that's nothing new....I have heard acoustic players that SOUNDED like H. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:25 PM Public release date: 12-Nov-2007 [ Print Article | E-mail Article | Close Window ] Contact: Bellave Shivaram bss2d@virginia.edu 434-806-9582 University of Virginia Scientists discover record-breaking hydrogen storage materials for use in fuel cells Scientists at the University of Virginia have discovered a new class of hydrogen storage materials that could make the storage and transportation of energy much more efficient — and affordable — through higher-performing hydrogen fuel cells. Bellave S. Shivaram and Adam B. Phillips, the U.Va. physicists who invented the new materials, will present their finding at 8 p.m., Monday, Nov. 12, at the International Symposium on Materials Issues in a Hydrogen Economy at the Omni Hotel in Richmond, Va. "In terms of hydrogen absorption, these materials could prove a world record," Phillips said. "Most materials today absorb only 7 to 8 percent of hydrogen by weight, and only at cryogenic [extremely low] temperatures. Our materials absorb hydrogen up to 14 percent by weight at room temperature. By absorbing twice as much hydrogen, the new materials could help make the dream of a hydrogen economy come true." In the quest for alternative fuels, U.Va.'s new materials potentially could provide a highly affordable solution to energy storage and transportation problems with a wide variety of applications. They absorb a much higher percentage of hydrogen than predecessor materials while exhibiting faster kinetics at room temperature and much lower pressures, and are inexpensive and simple to produce. "These materials are the next generation in hydrogen fuel storage materials, unlike any others we have seen before," Shivaram said. "They have passed every litmus test that we have performed, and we believe they have the potential to have a large impact." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Holy Grail of the fuel cell. From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:30 PM Argonne transportation experts to present research at 23rd electric vehicle meeting ARGONNE, Ill. (Nov. 30, 2007) -- Researchers from Argonne National Laboratory's Transportation Technology R&D Center (TTRDC) will present 11 papers during the Electric Vehicle Symposium-23 that will be held in Anaheim, Calif., from Dec. 2-5. Argonne is the lead U.S. Department of Energy laboratory for modeling, simulation, benchmarking and testing for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. Some of the presentations will address how to determine PHEVs' ability to reduce gas consumption; and how battery and electric machine components can impact a vehicle's energy consumption. "These papers represent leading efforts to objectively evaluate PHEVs and PHEV technologies and their potential impact on energy use," said Larry Johnson, director of the TTRDC. "Argonne possesses world-class expertise and state-of-the-art tools and facilities and is a definitive source for comprehensive dynamometer data on PHEVs." The papers that will be presented at EVS-23 and their Argonne authors are listed on the original web page . |
