BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:16 PM

Last Night the "Daily Show" did a neat parallel with a Republican flack charging Ms. Sheehan with profaning the memory of her son, followed by a photo moment from the archives with same Republican apologist defending the parents of Terry Schiavo for defending the rights of their daughter.

It's pretty clear that Ms. Sheehan is speaking her mind in her own country. Whether she is honoring the memory of her son, or exploiting it depends more on the observer's position than on Ms. Sheehan, who, regardless of your opinion, is exercising her free rights as a US citizen who has lost more in this war than most of us.

On behalf of 'W', I think it more likely that he is exercising his sense of politics in not meeting with the lady rather than exposing his callousness. I suspect that PM Tony Blair would be able to make real hay out of this opportunity with his exceptional talent of communications, a talent that President Bush does not have to an equivalent degree (to put it mildly).

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 07:25 PM

Hell, seems to me to stop the black limo and give her a hug of sympathy and say "I am sorry" would cost him nothing and would be within even his absurd vocabulary. ANd would reap great PR benefits politically.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:02 PM

Whether she is honoring the memory of her son, or exploiting it depends more on the observer's position than on Ms. Sheehan

I think Ms. Sheehan is the only person who can make that determination. She is, after all the only person who knows what is in her heart. All else is speculation at best, and character assasination at worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:04 PM

I just saw a headline that said her husband filed for divorce. I'm not following this story much, but that does seem to add insult to injury, perhaps making her position more vulnerable in the public eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:28 PM

They've been breaking up from the strain of the loss of their son anyway, according to reports, but she got the news that he files in California while she was standing her vigil in Texas.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 08:52 PM

In Britain too there are parents whose sons have been killed in Iraq who have been active in protesting against the war and the continued fighting and killing. (For example Rose Gentle)

But so far as I am aware, there hasn't been any of this hate and rage agains them, even by people who disagree with them.

I get the impression there is something very wrong indeed in the way in which people disagree with each other over these kinds of things in the States.

"Only in America" - isn't that supposed to be an expression of pride in your country, as a kind of model of how things should be?...

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 10:47 PM

OK Tarheel-

You have consistently, if very creatively, dodged the issue raised in Azizi's first posting on this thread. What exactly is the noble cause Cindy Sheehan's son died for? So far, all we have from you is the typically fatuous-- (look it up)-- Bushite answer--"the service of his country". But there has to be a reason for the country to need such service. Please enlighten us as to what it is--since Bush no longer says that WMD were the concern,
and the alleged link to Osama has been discredited.

"Protecting the freedoms we enjoy", another of your classic boilerplate phrases--(do you and our illustrious "commander in chief" have the same unimaginative and logic-challenged speechwriter?)-- also raises more questions and answers none. Saddam is long gone from power--exactly what freedoms are being protected?

It seems likely that the freedom being protected is the freedom to watch Iraq sooner or later dissolve into factions squabbling about oil, federalism and the role of Islam in government.

Somehow that doesn't seem worth dying for. I guess some of us must not enjoy it as much as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 11:20 AM

A gentleman Texan down the road a short way has kindly offered his one-acre lot to the Sheehan delegation. This gives them some space and security from the Rangers or sheriffs who were beginning to get pressured to move them from countty land.

He stated that he believed that people should be allowed to protest if they choose, and that he believed the Iraqi war was one we didn't need to be in.

I think he has demonstrated real gentility, after two other nearby ranchers have shown such barbaric dramatizations (firing off shotguns and driving a pickup over the group's signage/crosses).

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:01 PM

As much as I might sympathize with Ms. Sheehan for her loss, and may even share some of her views, it's a little hard for me to figure out what she's after, other than to make a scene. She surely can't imagine that she (and every other citizen in this nation of almost 300 million) has a right to multiple meetings with the President, or that her status as a grieving mother entitles her to demand a one-on-one debate with the President. She does have a right to express her views, to lobby others to join in her cause, and to request that her elected representatives use their authority to influence the nation's policies. But no President in modern times has opened himself up to meetings with every private citizen who might want one.

We have freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association and assembly, so there are lots of ways for Ms. Sheehan to make herself heard, and to encourage others to similarly raise their voices. I respect her son's sacrifice, and her grief, and I too think the administration needs to revisit some of the simplistic assumptions it continues to hold and broadcast to the rest of the world. But the campout by the side of the road in Texas is starting to look like a childish stunt to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:05 PM

Well, mebbe so; but I for one would really like to know the answer to her questions.

If her stand bendsprotocol a bit, it is little enough compared to the amount of ignorance Mister Bush has inflicted on the nation's citizens about what he is really doing as their elected representative, and why.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:26 PM

She's taking crap for allegedly (allegedly) staying in a motel?
As opposed to GWB who spends every night pampered on his ranch.

She's taking crap for "exploiting" her dead child for political purposes?
As opposed to GWB who "exploited" his daughters for political purposes at last summer's convention (and they are still alive, and will never be anywhere near Baghdad).

She's taking crap for "changing her story".
As opposed to GWB who invaded Iraq for WMD...no no 911...no no freedom and democracy...

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: kirstenanderberg
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:26 PM

Yes, I have raised a child to adulthood. My son is 20 and will be 21 in Oct. He is my only son. I raised him all by myself. I talked to him about this just last night, and he said "hell yes you better break my legs to keep me from going if I try something that dumb!" Yes, I have a RIGHT to speak on this, as in a draft, which is impending as we cannot keep up with this war, MY SON GOES NEXT. And yes, if she LET her son go, she SENT him. AS I WOULD NOT LET THEM TAKE MY DRAFT AGE SON IN A DRAFT. SHE LET THEM TAKE HER SON NOT IN A DRAFT! She has no excuse!!! Would she let her son just be a free will sex offender or serial killer? Hell no! No difference here.

As I said, I would not physically allow my son to go. Period. I would immediately get a family intervention, I would break his freakin legs if I had to. I would physically harm my son's body to keep him from leaving to kill others, something he would regret later, or to come back dead himself, something I would regret later. If i had to kidnap him against his will to stop his export, I would risk my own jailing for that. I see that NOW BEFORE he is sent off and coming back dead. I did not need my son to come home DEAD to understand this war for god's sake!

You simply cannot be an antiwar protester and send your kids off as soldiers. You become a "military" family the minute you allow that to go down. There is a time to take a stand. And this is one of them. NO ONE IS TAKING MY SON OFF TO IRAQ for this ILLEGAL OCCUPATION. NO ONE. You will have to KILL ME FIRST. Thus if I live long enough to show up on GWBush's lawn in protest of my dead son, it will be because they TOOK my son AGAINST MY WILL AND JAILED ME TO KEEP ME FROM STOPPING HIM!

Also, my son and I have already had MACHINE GUNS aimed a foot from our heads in March 2003 in PERMITTED protest zones. I have SEEN US cops aim a machine gun at my kid, who was unarmed, was a teen, was in a permitted zone, doing nothing illegal or violent, and they aimed a machine gun less than a foot from his head and I was right there asking the military cops why he was physically threatening my son for free speech and we had snippers aimed at us, this was on March 22, 2003 and then we were corralled and cops beat people around us until their heads bled and we feared for our safety...we have already begun to street fight with US cops for our rights to protest this war in Seattle, so do not act like I am not backing up my words with action. I have also been interviewed on national radio shows about how to make a conscientious objector file for your sons now...before the draft comes. This is VERY serious to me. The US Military MAY NOT have my son for ILLEGAL occupations based on WMD LIES, plain and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:39 PM

Kirsten:

There is no need to be yelling like that. She tried to argue him out of it and he believed it was his duty. You may be in a position to judge what the right degree of violence you would like to use on your own son under such circumstances is, but I don't think you have the right to accuse Cindy Sheehan of not being you; she never signed up to be you. Her protest was overruled by his self determination. She did not SEND him anywhere -- to the contrary she exerted herself to stop him from going; but she respected his decision. I think, had she to make the same choice over again, she might indeed see your reaosning. But also bear in mind that in her case it would have been assault and battery against an adult, legally, regardless of the maternal relationship.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 01:39 PM

Right on!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 02:20 PM

"But also bear in mind that in her case it would have been assault and battery against an adult, legally, regardless of the maternal relationship." Amos

As it would also be in your case, Kirsten. You don't buy into the idea of freedom? If your child, as a free thinking adult, should disagree with your own views on a matter, do you really think it is either your right or your duty to keep him or her from acting on their own beliefs? Going or not going to war is only one aspect of a much larger issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:27 PM

On the Demagoguery ahead -- excerpted from this article which predicts a lot more irresponsible arm-waving and blame and character-besmirching sleaze from the overheated NeoCon camp before much longer:

"The Bush administration's top officials must be counting the days until the end of the presidential vacation brings to a close the Crawford standoff between Camp Casey and Camp Carnage. But media assaults on Cindy Sheehan are just in early stages.

While the president mouths respectful platitudes about the grieving mother, his henchmen are sharpening their media knives and starting to slash. Pro-Bush media hit squads are busily spreading the notions that Sheehan is a dupe of radicals, naive and/or nutty. But the most promising avenue of attack is likely to be the one sketched out by Fox News Channel eminence Bill O'Reilly on Aug. 9, when he declared that Cindy Sheehan bears some responsibility for "other American families who have lost sons and daughters in Iraq who feel that this kind of behavior borders on treasonous."

That sort of demagoguery is on tap for the duration of the war. Military families will be recruited for media appearances to dispute the patriotism of antiwar activists -- especially those who speak as relatives of American soldiers and shatter media stereotypes by publicly urging withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. "

---

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 03:32 PM

Ao, Amos, a grieving mother who is against the war is just expressing her opinion, but one who supports the war is a demagogue?

All have the right to express their opinions- but if one side uses the fact that her son was killed as a platform, why do you deny the other side the same right?

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 04:53 PM

I wasn't. I was citing the article. What the author implies, and rightly, I think, is that if a grieving mother who believes in the war calls Cindy Sheehan's behaviour treasonous, she is crossing the line into demagoguery, or at least irrational extremist rhetoric. The exercise of free speech is not treasonous, generally; I believe conspiring to overthrow the Constitution or government by force may be so defined legally, but I am not positive about that.

Sheehan is not calling those who defend Bush's war treacherous for their actions, despite the undermining effect it has had on our national repute, the hemorrhaging impact on our financial resources, and the ruination that it will have wrought on the thousands of men and women who return from the horrors of war physically intact and mentally shattered. These things do great damage to the nation. By inciting violence beyond need, Mister Bush has opened a Pandora's box of nightmares which will roll out over the years as men wake up in cold sweats reaching for their weapons, only to find they are in bed at home. It has happened with every class of war veterans -- WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, and Desert Storm. It is aknown consequence of sending men to do violence. Perhaps it is an unfortunately treasonous side effect of political decisions.

But no-one in Sheehan's camp is calling those who support the war -- mothers or not -- treasonous, despite the possible reasons for using that term. Such language would be demagogic, intended to rouse flames and ire instead of reason and a review of what we are and what we stand for.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:05 PM

Amos,

Thank you for the explaination. I was nodding, right until the last line in the paragraph

"Perhaps it is an unfortunately treasonous side effect of political decisions.

But no-one in Sheehan's camp is calling those who support the war -- mothers or not -- treasonous, ..."



Such language seems to be demagogic, as well as contradictory. Or, are you NOT in Sheehan's camp?

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 05:09 PM

My point, which may have slipped sideways in transmission, is that although it could be argued that supporting the war is "treasonous" in the sense that it is harmful to the well-being of the nation and against the common good, nevertheless those in Sheehan's camp are not resorting to such language. To do so would not be rational, but intentionally inflammatory.

I am in support of Sheehan getting her questions answered honestly, although I fear this is unlikely; and I admire her courage in standing up to be counted despite the inevitable character assasination it has brought her from those more interested in being right than in right being.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 06:25 PM

Weird!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:43 PM

Kevin, what are you applying that to?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 07:57 PM

Parents of fallen Marine make plea to Bush

POSTED: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 8:50:03 PM
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:34:36 PM

CLEVELAND -- The Cleveland family of Marine killed in Iraq says President Bush needs to create a plan that will bring the troops home
Rosemary Palmer is the mother of Lance Corporal Edward Schroeder the Second, who was buried yesterday.

Palmer says the war is not going well and that changes have to be made. She says the troops either need more support or they need to be pulled out of Iraq.

At a news conference at their home today, Palmer and her husband applauded Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a fallen soldier who has posted herself outside Bush's ranch in Crawford, Texas.

Palmer says Sheehan is the Rosa Parks of the anti-war movement.

Schroeder died two weeks ago in a roadside explosion along with other Ohio-based Marines.

Source: http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=39408

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 08:08 PM

What does weird mean there?

My post to this thread yesterday at 8:52 pm gives a hint.

"Weird" means a time and a place where this kind of hate and contempt toward this lady is evidently accepted as a normal part of political behaviour. Weird, and frightening, because it's showing itself in the most powerful political entity in the history of the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:18 PM

Well, seems the Bush nmassive PR machine is workin' 24/7 tryin' any trick they can come up wioth to discredit Cindy Sheehan with out seemin calous... Good luck to them but I'd rather have my hard earned tax bucks goin' toward something more positive than trying to get me to think they way that Bush's PR folks would like me to think...

And, IMHO, I think this woamn has every right to do what she is doing... Since her first meetin' with Bush a lot of stuff has come to the forfront and, yeah, ain't jus' Cindy Sheehan that has questions...

Seems there ain't too many folks, other than the partisan true believin' Bush-heads, that don't have a lot of questions...

Meanwhile Bush hides out on the ranch... Normal... That seems to be his MO.... Hide and let daddy fix it... He is not a man... He is a spoiled little kid who occasionally tries to act like he is a man...

... which is yet another lie on his resume'.... Like he cares???

Legacy???? Hmmmmmm???? Crook, liar and murderer... That 'bout sums up his regime...

When can we have our country back? This guy is killin' it....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 05 - 10:59 PM

Bobert,

You make a great standup comic - forget the guitar.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 12:34 AM

"On Monday night, a vandal in a pickup truck ran over hundreds of small white crosses that had been installed in Crawford, Texas as a simple memorial to the Troops killed in Iraq. The vandal, who police say is Waco resident Larry Northern, was soon arrested, and OpTruth's Perry Jefferies managed to find his e-mail address. Here's what he had to say:

Mr. Northern:

I am a Veteran of the Iraq war, having served with the 4th Infantry Division on the initial invasion with Force Package One.

While I was in Iraq,a very good friend of mine, Christopher Cutchall,was killed in an unarmoredHMMWV outside of Baghdad. He was a cavalry scout serving with the 3d ID.Once he had declined the award of a medal because Soldiers assigned to him did not receive similar awards that he had recommended. He left two sons and awonderful wife. On Monday night, August 16, you ran down the memorial cross erected for him by Arlington West."

To continue reading this open email to the vandalizer of the crosses at Camp Casey, click Operation Truth

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,kirsten anderberg
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:47 AM

Look, you cannot say you have to let kids have free will and be soldiers and then act like you didn't know they were risking their lives. That is idiocracy. And then to feign ignorance to cover guilt once they are dead is ludicrous. Period. Do not complain about American kids coming home dead in bags if you did not complain about them going there to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:47 AM

kirsten, I really wonder at what drives some of these arguments. You are attempting to answer emotion with logic. I guess you can try, but I don't know how far you will get. I get the distinct impression from your posts that you have the answers and we poor saps should all be able to "get it".

How many Mothers and Fathers in the last 45 years or so had to set back and watch as their children went to a war they may have had doubts about? They did it because young folks, despite our best efforts, grow to young adulthood and make choices.   We raise them to do so, and not just the choices we want them to make. It is not only in the war arena. I just heard a caller to an NPR talk radio show complaining that his beautiful, science trained, college graduate niece had chucked it all andwent to one of the old Soviet Republics to preach the Gospel to Moslems. The whole family is in distress, but she has made her mind up.

Mothers and Fathers are only complicit in the decisions that their children make to the extent that they raised the children.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 07:53 AM

Look, you cannot say you have to let kids have free will and be soldiers and then act like you didn't know they were risking their lives.

I don't think anyone is doing this. But understanding it never lessens the overwhelming sorrow when the risk turns bad.

Every risk has two sides, also. I wonder if Casey had killed a dozen angry men of his age but different nationality and religion, and come home with the blessings of Uncle Sam, would she be staked out? Obviously not. Someone else might be, though. And Casey could be just as ruined internally, maddened by what he went through and what he did.

War is the worst choice available.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:16 AM

MY own son, age 23, is back "camping" on my futon for a few weeks till he gets settled at school/work. I've had to set some "sound boundaries" around here lately, particularly around this one new and particularly brutal and oppressive heavy metal number he likes, by a group called System of a Down (I think they're from the UK). Just imagine all that testosterone ROARING out the last verse over and over, and you'll see why I had to set the boundary ....


"B.Y.O.B. System Of A Down lyrics
Artist: System Of A Down
Album: Mezmerize
Year: 2005
Title: B.Y.O.B.

Why do they always send the poor!
Barbarisms by Barbaras
With pointed heels.
Victorious, victorious, kneel.
For brand new spankin' deals.
Marching forward hypocritic
And hypnotic computers.
You depend on our protection,

Yet you feed us lies from the table cloth.
La la la la la la la la la,
Everybody's going to the party have a real good time.
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine.

Kneeling roses disappearing,
Into Moses' dry mouth,
Breaking into Fort Knox,
Stealing our intentions,
Hangars sitting dripped in oil,
Crying FREEDOM!

Handed to obsoletion,
Still you feed us lies from the table cloth.
La la la la la la la la la,
Everybody's going to the party have a real good time.
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine.
Everybody's going to the party have a real good time.
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine.

Blast off, its Party time,
And we don't live in a fascist nation,
Blast off , its party time,
And where the fuck are you?
….. Yeah
Where the fuck are you?
Where the fuck are you?

Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor? [X4]

Kneeling roses disappearing,
Into Moses' dry mouth,
Breaking into Fort Knox,
Stealing our intentions,
Hangars sitting dripped in oil,
Crying FREEDOM!

Handed to obsoletion,
Still you feed us lies from the tablecloth.
La la la la la la la la la,
Everybody's going to the party have a real good time.
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine.
Everybody's going to the party have a real good time.
Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine.

Where the fuck are you!
Where the fuck are you!

Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
Why don't presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor? [X3]
Why, do, they always send the poor [X3]
They only send the poor [x2]"


Good question - it's just the form that's not user-friendly for an ole fossil like me. Lately though, because of Cindy and her son, I've had a change of heart about that song. And I keep wondering if Casey liked the same music Eric does - they were about the same age.

"Kids" (???) that age are much more likely to listen to their peers and the media than their mothers. I know - I have 3. So I'm glad at least somebody's asking the questions - and in a form that might attract the attention of the young ones who need to ponder it most. I'd like to make it mandatory listening for all young people considering a career in the military! It's just so unfortunate Casey never got to hear it. And poor Cindy is most thankfully reaching a larger audience.

Even though I am pro-peace and non-violence, if my sons chose to join the Armed Forces today, they would do it with my blessings and best wishes. I'd certainly make it my business to be sure they understood why I'd prefer otherwise, but I would never interfere with their free will by trying to force my point of view on them, or continue to harrass them about it - much less "break their legs"! That's because I'm into non-violence and freedom for ALL, even those who disagree with me - not to mention avoiding police, courts and prisons (as Amos pointed out).

My grandfather was decorated for bravery for his actions in the trenches of WWI, at the ripe ole age of 19. My father spent a couple years in Korea before I was born, then in Egypt during the 60's, as a UN peacekeeper. I remember the daily stress and worry that he'd be posted to Vietnam when he got back from teh Middle East - but that war ended before they sent his division. I would not DREAM of dishonouring them today by informing them about how "foolish" or "immoral" (??) I thought their careers (and their sacrifices) were! Even if I did think that way (which I don't), and even if the ones who choreographed those wars were misguided and 'evil' (which they probably were). That's because I love them, and I know saying those those things would only hurt them, and change nothing anyway.

Opinions, circumstances and choices may come and go, but in the end only Love Rules.

Even so, the stand Cindy is taking is commendable and vitally important. It's so dangerous to publicly hold a 'serial bully' accountable though! Not to mention the planets's most powerful serial 'superbully' (at present, anyway). Drives their "Malice" levels up right off the scale, if I remember correctly from the article I linked to in my first post here. So I just keep watching, and hoping, and praying for the best ....

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:12 AM

May the Universe spare your son, and your son spare your ears, from their several assaults.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 01:34 PM

I'd like to throw another thought into this mix. For years this one song has offended my sensibilities. It was written (recorded?) in 1914 and I object to the mindset it propounds.

"Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
And smile, smile, smile
While you've a lucifer to light your fag
Smile, boys. That's the style!
What's the use in worrying? It never was worthwhile.
So pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
And smile, smile, smile."

Vietnam protests have taken us a long way past the idea that we should present ourselves or our boys as fodder for our 'betters' to use as they see fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 02:00 PM

1915 actually. Here's a page with the lyrics and a couple of recordings from 1916 and 1917. I think you may be misunderstanding the mindset, Ebbie - basically it's not gung-ho patriotism, it's keep-smiling-through stoicism, with a definite touch of irony. Remember it's an English song.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:33 PM

BREAKING: Cindy's going home asap
...Cindy Sheehan's mother has had a stroke and she is heading home to be with her.

Cindy said, in the brief clip, that the camp would continue as other Gold Star Mothers were there.

Pray for her. And keep the strength flowing to Camp Casey."

-snip-

For more information on the vigil by Cindy Sheehan and other Gold Star parents, visit dailykos

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:06 PM

Her son.

Her husband.

Her mother.

Dear heavens to Betsy, this gal is hoeing a rough row.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:23 PM

Not to mention some oft the media.

Thanks, McGrath. I didn't even know the song was British. And I certainly didn't know it had verses! I had never heard them.

It well may be meant in irony- as various have said, some Americans don't pick up on too finely pointed irony; I don't think my failure is because I am American but because, for whatever reason, I tend to be literal by nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 09:46 PM

Well, good danged post daylia...

Yeah, what's gettin' shuffled unner that table is not the right ot wrongness of America's forieng policy under Bush but personalities... Cindy v. Bush...

Yeah, I'm sorry that Cindy has had to rush off but this ain't about one woman's grief but a much larger issue of a terribly flaweed American foriegn policy...

This is what we should be discussin'...

See, this is how good the Bush PR team is...

Like what are we really discussing here? Whether a woam who has lost her son has a right to petition the president??? Like who friggin' cares???

It's more about whether the mothers , afether, brothers and siteres of all the service folks in Iraq have a right to clear answers on why we are still there...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 10:52 PM

Bobert is dead right. As I pointed out earlier, none of our intellectual giant Bushites have managed to answer Azizi's question opening this thread--what exactly was the glorious cause Cindy Sheehan's son died for?

The silence has been deafening.

As others have pointed out, you can perhaps gain a good picture of how much Bush believes in his own cause by observing how hard he has tried to persuade his own daughters to join the "front lines of freedom" in Iraq.

As I noted earlier, it seems likely that the only freedom being protected by her son's death is the freedom to watch Iraq, sooner or later, descend into factions squabbling over oil, federalism, and the role of Islam in government. Even if the constitution does finesse these issues by this coming Sunday, they will not go away--and any of these could destroy Iraq as a state. (Obviously the Kurdish north has been de facto, if not de jure, independent for years now--and sees no reason to backtrack.)

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 11:19 PM

I am sorry if this has already been posted, but tonight, I can finally say "I see some hope and am proud of some of my fellow Americans." To see why, look at this slide show of favourite pix from around the country from over 1700 candleight vigils for Cindy: click here. The more the shurb ignores her, the bigger the groundswell of Americans for Peace, imo. Give 'im enough rope...

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 11:55 PM

Here ya go -- Clicky.

I heard on the radio today that there are those who think that Cindy's vigil has had a sort of "Rosa Parks Effect" and may very well have breathed new life into the peace movement. Let's hope!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:59 AM

Oh yes Don, I really hope so. I just saw the slideshow and was filled with hope. Well done those people! More and more this is reminding me of the Vietnam era.

If public opinion turns our way sufficiently, Bush will have to start listening, if for no other reason than his desire not to get voted out of office.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:55 PM

Thanks, Don, for the clicky. I tried to fix mine last night when the 'cat went down.:-)

I DO believe this is breathing new life in the Peace Movement. I loved that one sign which quoted the 60's "War is not good for children and other living things."

Don't forget there is a HUGE IMPEACH BUSH march on Washington, DC coming up next month!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 07:15 PM

It's rather a pity you don't have the same system of popular recall nationally that Arnie the Terminator took advantage of in California.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 08:06 PM

The President is quite impeachable, Kevin...it only requires enough brave lawyers...oh, never mind!!!!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:28 PM

Keep it up, folks! A concerned friend from New Orleans just sent this encouraging update:

"...Meanwhile, Bush's approval continues to sink. For example, this from the webnews...

August 17, 2005

Bush Approval Continues to Fall   

http://tinyurl.com/at7p3

President Bush's job approval has dropped to 41% nationwide, according to the results of 50 separate but concurrent, statewide public opinion
polls conducted by SurveyUSA ( http://tinyurl.com/9x75l )


Bush's approval rating ranges from a high of 59% in Idaho to a low of 29% in Rhode Island.

a.. Bush is above 50% in 7 states.
b.. Bush is at 50% in 2 states.
c.. Bush is below 50% in 41 states.

Compared to last month's poll, Bush's approval numbers dropped 5 or more points in 10 states. The single largest drop was in Minnesota, where it fell 10 points. Bush also fell 9 points in New Mexico.

For state by state details go to SurveyUSA

http://tinyurl.com/9x75l

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:33 PM

PS System of a Down is not from the UK, but the US. That feels reassuring, somehow. ANd thanks all, for your thoughts and songs and blessings too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 09:59 PM

See this online article of two Gold Star Mothers who are joining the vigil in Crawford, Texas:

"Ga. Moms Protest at Bush's Ranch

It is traveling day for Evelyn Allen and Patricia Roberts, two mothers who lost their sons to the war in Iraq.

"We just don't know the truth behind the war," Allen told 11Alive's Jerry Carnes "We're at a standstill. Why is it going on? We want to know why."

Allen is the mother of Jonathan Shields who was 25 when he died in Iraq. Patricia Roberts is the mother of Jamaal Addison, who was killed at the age of 23. The mothers boarded a plane at Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson Airport, bound for Crawford, Texas. They've joined in a protest there in front of President Bush's Texas ranch, demanding that president Bush end the war.

"I've never heard from the President," said Roberts. "He's never sent his condolences and never acknowledged my son personally, and that's what I ask of him."

Civil rights leaders, including Rev. Joseph Lowery and John Evans, also made the trip.

"This trip isn't about who Bush is," said Rev. Lowery. "It's about who we the people are, and we are the people who call for an end to the slaughter."

In the same airport, at virtually the same time, hundreds of soldiers lined up for their trip to the Middle East. Sgt. Carnell Lee said goodbye to his wife and daughter.

"I can understand their grief because we're losing soldiers over there," said Sgt. Lee said of the protesting mothers. "But, we've still have a mission over there and we still have to complete that mission before we come back."

Sgt. Curtis Hodges said grief can't interfere with unfinished work.

"Let us do our job," said Sgt. Hodges. "Let us do our job and complete the mission, and when the mission is done, we'll come home."

Protesters say if Bush doesn't bring American soldiers home, they will demand that congress end their financing of the war."

http://11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=68052

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 10:01 PM

What is the noble cause people are dying for?


****



Maybe I finally got #100??!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cindy Sheehan: A Mother's Love
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 10:03 PM

"System of a Down"?? What -- Microsoft's next release?


A