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BS: Old expressions explained
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,Rog Peek at work Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM I understand that 'getting the wrong end of the stick' originated from the Romans use of a santary sponge on the end of a stick to wipe their behinds. The stick was kept in a bucket of water and re-used until it became too foul. Consequently, one took great care not to take hold of the wrong end of the stick. Incidentally Tofctgyd, I grew up in Cirencester in Gloucestershire and we called the custom of knocking on doors and running away 'knock down ginger', so it was not just local to London. Rog |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: HuwG Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:43 AM Just re-read some of the earlier posts: Time Immemorial does (or did) have a specific meaning in English law. In 1276, it was fixed by Statute that any custom or right which had been exercised since before 1189 (i.e. the end of the reign of Henry II and the accession of Richard I) should be regarded as having been in use since "time immemorial", and therefore did not need any specific grant to be exercised. A requirement was that any such right or custom should be "continually exercised" i.e. could not fall into disuse and be subsequently reinstated. The difficulty of proving this over seven hundred years led to a change in the nineteenth century. It was established that any right which had been continually exercised for at least twenty years (or thirty years where the right had been exercised against a claim by the Crown) should be regarded as having existed since "time immemorial". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Escapee Date: 25 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM Many of these phrases are explained in The Oxford Book Of Ships And The Sea, Oxford University Press, Peter Kemp, editor. Some of the explanations are pretty dull compared to this thread, but they're much easier to swallow. It's amazing to me how many common words and phrases come to us from the days of sail. But it was a pervasive technology. Where we see one container ship with a crew of maybe a dozen or so, our great-grandparents would have seen dozens of ships and hundreds of sailors. And its nearly gone, except for the way they talked. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: autolycus Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM Hope that helps, Cindee. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:37 PM I've been in and out of this thread at various times, and I might have missed someone else giving this, but I remembered that "blue blood" or "blueblood" was questioned earlier, so I looked it up in WorldWideWords which is an excellent source of reliable word knowledge, run by Michael Quinion. He says: Unlike so many other expressions, this one is well documented. It's a direct translation of the Spanish sangre azul. Many of the oldest and proudest families of Castile used to boast that they were pure bred, having no link with the Moors who had for so long controlled the country, or indeed any other group. As a mark of this, they pointed to their veins, which seemed bluer in colour than those of such foreigners. This was simply because their blue-tinted veins showed up more prominently in their lighter skin, but they took it to be a mark of their pure breeding. So the phrase blue blood came to refer to the blood which flowed in the veins of the oldest and most aristocratic families. The phrase was taken over into English in the 1830s. By the time Anthony Trollope used it in The Duke's Children in 1880, it had become common: It is a point of conscience among the — perhaps not ten thousand, but say one thousand of bluest blood, — that everybody should know who everybody is. Our Duke, though he had not given his mind much to the pursuit, had nevertheless learned his lesson. It is a knowledge which the possession of the blue blood itself produces. There are countries with bluer blood than our own in which to be without such knowledge is a crime. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: kendall Date: 25 Mar 08 - 02:51 PM The use of the word "cannon" is improper when referring to the armament aboard a ship. A cannon is used in a fortress on shore, and the same type of weapon aboard ship is called a gun. |
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Subject: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,Cindee Berry Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:48 AM I'm trying to find the origin of an expression we used as kids ... and unfortunately, I'm not quite sure if we got it right. We said some form of envoir ... or Omvure ... or homvoir ... phonetically ahm-ver or ahn-ver that meant anything from 'shame on you' to 'that's bad' or 'I'm telling' Any thoughts or suggestions on this? We were raised in Montana. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: autolycus Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:47 AM Without yet having read right thru this fascinating thread,I just wanted to mention one resource that my waters tell me hasn't yet been referred to yet. As a means of answering these questions. Wait for it. books. some people masy have heard of these,especially those who grew up B.I. Got it? No? yes? B.I. - Before the Internet There are loads of books that give phrase origins,some with detailed sources,too many without. And books are sometimes more authoritative then the big I. Ivor PS There are also amazing,little-known places that are a treasury that kind of stuff,going under wierd names like library and bookshop. Definitions of both are available in the infinite glories of www. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,Black Hawk not logged in Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:26 AM I spend my holidays in Scotland & have a static caravan on a small farm. The most enjoyable evenings have been when the farmer & I enjoyed a 'wee dram' together sitting outside as the sun went down. Between yarning etc. there would be pauses when we just sat & enjoyed the view over the Loch. During these pauses the farmer would sigh now & again & I would hear a quiet 'Och Aye'. My children think of this as a typical scotsmans expression. Alas, my friend died last year but I still have memories of a real gentleman to treasure. He was definately OK ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: bubblyrat Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:02 AM Regardless of how much it weighs, armour is dangerous ! Last year, I read a newspaper report about a man ,in full armour, at a re-enactment or something in, I think, Sweden, who was struck by lightning-----Shocked witnesses reported a hissing sound, and steam coming from the eye-slits in the helmet !! Uuugh !! As to the origins of " OK " ----My own pet theory is this : Many early Immigrants to America , came from Scotland. Now, when a Scotsman wishes to indicate assent or approval to / of something, he invariably says " Och ! Aye ! " , and it is easy to see how this could have mutated into " OK ", don"t you think ??? At least, it"s more feasible than some of the rather far-fetched and convoluted explanations that I have encountered thus far !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: MMario Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:00 PM I'm waiting for the day some of the "explanations" and "histories" humourously posted here at the 'cat show up on someone's internet page as "truth". already seen a couple cases of recently composed verses being touted as "traditional" - and tracing them back to challenge!s or speciulative postings by 'catters. (though it wasn't intentional on the part of the people claiming that - it was confusion and inadaquete reading) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Amos Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:26 PM ROFLMAO!! It actually derives from an Old French vernacular word "piet! piet!" which was used as a nickname for small housecats by Breton farmers and their wives. Circa 1278. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,meself Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM Yeah, but you and 97.8% of the people you meet will THINK that you are wise, and that's all that matters. Btw - re: "for the love o' Pete". This expression refers to a well-known gigolo of mysterious origin who appeared in Paris around the end of WWI - or, according to some sources, around the end of the Roman conquest of Gaul. Lonely patrician women would ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Amos Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:22 PM Do your own homework, research, and thinking, for the love o' PEte, insofar as possible. There is so much trash on the Internet about false histories (for example, the railroad-gauge deriving from Roman chariot widths story) that you can get a head full of false data and end up stupider than you would be if you'd never even found the Internet in the first place. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,Black Hawk Date: 24 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM When I was at (UK)school in the fifties we were taught that in medieval times, market days were held & people bought piglets sewn into a bag called a 'poke'. Thus you were never to buy 'a pig in a poke' because it could have been a cat, hence (as mentioned above) the buyer could warn others about the swindler by 'letting the cat out of the bag'. If not true, it shows you should never rely on teachers! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Mr Happy Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:18 AM square plates = "Square meal" so following on logically, why didn쳌ft the navy have square balls to stop 쳌eem rolling around? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,meself Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM In other words - have fun! (From the acronym, F.U.N., or "F---ed Up Nonsense"). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,meself Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM I've seen so many plausible and implausible, delightful and mundane expanations of old expressions bunked, debunked, rebunked, junked and defunct, that no longer believe ANY of the explanations. I think Snopes captured the matter well: "Most of us feel a bit of a glow when we think we're in possession of information others aren't privy to, and when a titillating or apt story is thrown in behind the trivia, these things just take off." (But - carry on!) (Oh - sailors in the British navy had to tote or "carry on" their personal gear, when boarding a ship. Often, the morning after a last night's spree ashore, a groggy sailor would hesitate to try to determine if he was about to board the right ship. The presiding officer would holler ... hence the commonly used ... blah, blah, blah ... ). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,Black Hawk Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:39 AM Re. hangers on. In the Newgate Calendar (a collection of records of infamous villains, Dick Turpin, Jack Shepherd & such) there is frequent reference to friends and family hanging on to the victims legs to hasten death. The standard execution was hanging but this meant a slow death by strangulation, the 'modern' method of neck-breaking had not been developed. The victims were referred to as being 'turned off'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Rowan Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:41 AM Life's a bitch, isn't it Amos. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Amos Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:05 AM It's just possible, though, that the concept of observing a top dog and an underdog at work goes back waaaay before saw-pits... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: frogprince Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:47 PM The Mrs. and I saw a "top dog" and "under dog" demontrate that technique a couple of years back. Any extended time working as "under dog" had to be one of life's almost unthinkable occupations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Amos Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:07 PM Lovely explanation, Rowan! Thanks! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Rowan Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM GUEST,Boab's "All info as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike---" reminded me of two that are common around where I live: "Useless as tits on a bull" and "Useless as a plough upstairs". The continuing posts about cannon balls and brass monkeys is intriguing for a couple of things: 1 Everybody, with the possible exceptionof one poster who made reference to Brighton and Aberdeen, seems to have associated cannon and their ammunition with ships (and the Victory seems central to many notions) when there is plenty of evidence (ie stories) about land-based use of them, 2 Everybody, again with the possible exception of the poster who started the reference to monkey's tails and other anatomy, seems to give little credit to the possibility that much earlier people had the same sense of absurd wit that we value, exemplified in the more modern Goon Show; the absurdity of linking the feeling of bitter cold to both balls and a brass monkey is exquisite. But to add to the list, a couple from the days of cutting tall timber manually. "Top notch" is used to describe "the best" and there are two situations where it applied literally. The tallest trees in Australia's forests (and the one measuring 366' when felled was regarded as the tallest in the world) are Eucalyptus regnans and had very large buttresses (my grandparents had a piccie of the base of one that took 39 blokes to stretch arms to reach around it) that reached a good 40' up the trunk from the ground. To fell the tree and have a log that was round, two axemen would operate from opposite sides cutting a notch as far up as they could reach. Into the notch they'd ram a 6' long horizontal plank, climb onto it with their axe and another such plank and stand on it to cut another, higher notch. This would be repeated until they got to the desired height when they would fell the tree. Woodchop competitions still celebrate this technique. To get to the required height the fastest was to be top notch. The other situation was when the log was being sawn longitudinally and gave rise to another expression often used in Australia. Before mechanical milling, the log that was going to be sawn was positioned over a pit and sawn by two men pulling the opposite ends of a long saw; crosscut saws (with a particular set to the teeth; another 'term') were used when cutting across the log and rip saws (with a quite different set to the teeth) were used for cutting along the log. The "top dog" would stand on top of the log and place the rip saw in the top notch where the cut was to start. The "under dog" would stand in the bottom of the pit and pull the saw down. The top dog would then pull the saw back up but, to maintain rhythm and speed, would not bite the saw into the timber as hard as the under dog could when using gravity to assist his pull down. The underdog also got covered in sawdust from all this, as well as doing the tougher labour. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Bill D Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM yes they did...right under the question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST,xavior Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:56 PM Hey.....no one answered the person who wrote in wondering where the expression "chocker blocked" came from. Anyone know. x |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Leadfingers Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM Thats OK jenny - I looked at this one earlier but couldnt think of any thing sufficiently witty for a 99th !! You are welcome to the 1ooth !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: JennyO Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:56 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: JennyO Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:56 AM Here's an old expression - at least it's been heard around here a few times before........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:29 PM The best 'Old Expression' is a smile - self explanatory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Schantieman Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:48 PM Tony Robinson's TV programme is called The Worst Jobs in the World and featured the dyer, boiling up crushed woad leaves to make a brilliant blue dye. Smells awful apparently. HMS Victory does indeed have wooden shot racks on all the gundecks but I suspect they've been put there for effect. It doesn't take a particularly rough sea to get the ship pitching and/or rolling and the damage to feet and bulwarks would have been severe. Shot was stored in the shot locker in the hold where it would be used as ballast. Captains who cared about the sailing performance of their ships (Lord Cochrane, the model for Hornblower, for one) used to get their ships' companies to redistribute the shot to change the trim of the ship. Jack Aubrey did this too, so it must be true ;-) Larboard originated as 'ladeboard' - the side of the ship (board) over which it was laden and unladen. It had to be done on that side coz on the other - steerboard - side was the steering oar which would've been damaged if ground against the jetty. (Of course, it was on that side coz most of the steersmen were right handed). The term 'Larboard' was replaced by 'Port' in the nineteenth century to avoid occasional confusion with 'starboard'. I agree with Shanghaiceltic's views on the cat. The prisoner used to have to make his own from a length of rope. Thieves were further punished by having the tails knotted so they'd bite into the flesh more effectively. No-one wanted a thief on board. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Leadfingers Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM My 'Old Expression' is very simply explained !! Its down to my Age !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: open mike Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:15 AM i have a book called heavens to besty if any0ne wants me to lok up any thing, let me know it is a book about origins of expressions and figures of speech |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: kendall Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:56 AM Many of our expressions come from the sea. Scuttlebutt. Gossip. A scuttlebutt is a water keg. By and large refers to the set of the sails. Sailors refer to the toilet as "the head". In the days of sail, the relief station was located at the bow ,or the head of the ship. Hold a turn. To belay a sheet or halyard. By the boards. In the early days a ship was steered by boards which hung over the side. Starboard is a contraction of "steer board" Larboard is the "Lee board". The left side of the ship was the "Port" side, the side that was up against the wharf or pier. You sometimes hear people say, up against the dock. No, a dock is a body of water between to piers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Paul Burke Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:39 AM To be at loggerheads with someone... The battle of Blore Heath, in the Wars of the Roses, was fought in Shropshire in 1459. As usual, Yorkshire won, they won all the battles except the ones that mattered. The outcome was that Richard III became king, but that belongs in the other thread. Quite near Blore Heath (about 2 miles) is a place called Loggerheads- it's the nearest village, and the Lancastrian army would have marched through it, if not camped there for the night. The area supported the Lancastrians, so would probably have collected feudal levies on the way. So did the phrase come from the battle? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: mack/misophist Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:46 AM An official etymology was announced about 10 years ago. One of the various stories was that Andrew Jackson initialed state papers with "OK" for 'Oll Korrekt'. It was a lie. He was quite literate. However... In New York state there was a little town called Knickerbocker where folks from New York city went to escape the summer heat. Even there, the dog days were so bad that people just sat on the porch and drank iced lemonade. The local paper, The Knickerbocker Times, knew this, of course, so during the hottest part of the summer they published many games, puzzels, and humourous essays. They are the ones who started the Andrew Jackson canard. That was the very first print appearance of "OK" in any country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: beardedbruce Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:52 PM The best explaination of ok I have heard was in science fiction... Because of the (future ) use of the metric system, the time travelers that went back used the term "0 k" ( zero kilometers) to indicate something that was unused, totally new, or like new. Since the people of the era they visited were using the English system, when they were overheard to say "ok", it was thought to be slang. As the time travelers had set themselves up as upper class ( wealthy) individuals, this soon caught on, and thus... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: kendall Date: 25 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM I've heard many explanations for "OK". One of them is this: President Martin Van Buren came from the town of Old Kinderhook New York. He was said to have signed papers with his nickname, "Old Kinderhook" or OK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: The Walrus Date: 24 Aug 05 - 08:42 PM I haven't read most of the rest of this thread, but, has anyone dealt with 'Bombing Along' for moving at a good speed? The version of the story, as I understand it. In the early stages of the Great War, the method of trench clearing involved riflemen and 'bayoneteers', each bay having to be cleared by fire power and by use of the bayonet (or less regular improvised weapons) when fighting corps a corps. With the advent, first of large quantities of smaller grenades (as opposed to the longer and slightly unwealdy Grenade MkI<1>), and later of the Mills type grenade, clearing of fire bays and dugouts became a much quicker affair. The trench clearing parties now consisted of riflemen, bayonet men and bombers. The use of grenades was known, in the British Army as 'bombing' (There had been some complaint - from certain Regiments with influence - about referring to the bombers as 'grenadiers'). Any other theories? Walrus <1> The Mk.I Grenade was originally issued for siege warfare (Royal Engineer issue only), it was in a long cane handle (unwealdy in the confines of the trenches) and were detonated by a percussion system, dangerous when throwing from confined spaces and requiring a good direct strike to detonate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:26 PM Oh Raedwolf..I have so failed...to name the programme. Please trust that I actually did see the programme but fail in remembering the name of it. Perhaps some other helpful catter in the UK can remember it for me. I don't consider that I was thoroughly telling you off either..merely supporting something from my own framework and suggesting a little research. Best wishes, Mike. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Raedwulf Date: 24 Aug 05 - 04:47 PM GS - I consider myself thoroughly told off. It was on TV! It must be true! And you even (fail entirely) to name the program that said so! {rollseyes} Now try producing some real evidence. Because, of my own curiousity & volition, I went looking for a source. The only thing I could find outside of a bare defintion, is that Partridge's Slang dictionary says it is first recorded in the 16/17thC. I cannot find any explanation of the the origin of the phrase. Not your assertion, not my supposition, not anything. So produce some genuine attributable evidence. I only suggested that "know-nothing"'s explanation was unsupported rubbish. MY theory is only an educated guess. Where's YOUR evidence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Georgiansilver Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:27 PM Degeneration I call it...pure degeneration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Le Scaramouche Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:33 AM Blasphemy was considered worse, much worse, I didn't say they never used sex and stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Paul Burke Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:39 AM Nowadays it's about sex or bodily functions, but in Victorian times (and earlier) blasphemy was it They spell Sunt with a C, which is damnable. I think that's 17th century. It's not that they didn't use sex and bodily fuctions- it's just that the blasphemy got printed, but by God and Mary, it's lost its power now, the very Devil it has! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Le Scaramouche Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM Swearing WAS different then, Paul. Nowadays it's about sex or bodily functions, but in Victorian times (and earlier) blasphemy was it. Damn was very bad, that's why Sam Hall was so shocking!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: GUEST, Jos Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:21 AM On 'time immemorial' http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/time_immemorial |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Paul Burke Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM When references to "brass monkeys" started appearing in print in the mid-19th century, they did not always mention balls or cold temperatures. It was sometimes cold enough to freeze the ears, tail, nose, or whiskers off a brass monkey. Likewise, it was sometimes hot enough to "scald the throat" or "singe the hair" of a brass monkey. These usages are inconsistent with the putative origins offered here. It would have been difficult the refer to monkey's naughty bits in print in the 19th century, when the dialogue of villains was rendered as "---- your eyes! Take THAT, you d------!" However, some facts. Let's assume a cannonball is 10cm in diameter. The differential temperature coefficient of expansivity between cast iron and brass is about 7 micrometres per metre per degree. Also assume that the balls were stacked in the tropics, near Brighton, at a temperature of 45C, and that they have reached the bloody cold waters of the north east Scottish coast, and the air is at -20C. That's 65 degrees change, so the differential contraction between the monkey and the balls is 65x7x.05 micrometres per ball, or approximately a thousandth of an inch. Each ball has changed by about one-and-a-half thousandths in diameter. If balls were to need to be so accurately aligned to remain stable, I don't think they'd last long in a swell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Aug 05 - 06:43 PM Time immemorial is more or less what's meant by the old expression, "A long time ago, the memory of the oldest inhabitant runneth not to the contrary". Or something close to that. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: Georgiansilver Date: 22 Aug 05 - 03:18 PM Thanks Beardedbruce....Tony Robinson gave us the answer in his series of programmes on the worst jobs ever which is being repeated on UK TV at present. Best wishes, Mike. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained From: beardedbruce Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:57 PM PETARD A small bomb used to blow in a door or gate. If it wasn't for its appearance in Shakespeare's Hamlet: "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer / Hoist with his owne petar" and its fossil survival in the rather more modern spelling to be hoist with one's own petard, this term of warfare would have gone the way of the halberd, brattice and culverin. A petard was a bell-shaped metal grenade typically filled with five or six pounds of gunpowder and set off by a fuse. Sappers dug a tunnel or covered trench up to a building and fixed the device to a door, barricade, drawbridge or the like to break it open. The bomb was held in place with a heavy beam called a madrier. Unfortunately, the devices were unreliable and often went off unexpectedly. Hence the expression, where hoist meant to be lifted up, an understated description of the result of being blown up by your own bomb. The name of the device came from the Latin petar, to break wind, perhaps a sarcastic comment about the thin noise of a muffled explosion at the far end of an excavation. |
