BS: Old expressions explained

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:42 PM

Well my dates were all screwed up; but yer tellin' me the ancient Briton did NOT paint himself blue with woad? I am stunned!! Bert's whole claim to fame was singing the Woad song on Mudcat Radio!!! LOL

What's the use of wearing braces,
Boots with buttons, shoes with laces
Coats and ties you buys in places
Down on Bronckton Road?
What's the use of shirts of cotton?
Studs that always get forgotten?
These affairs are simply rotten!
Better far is Woad!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

Deckman, afraid Le Scaramouche is right -- even though the port-out starboard-home is an extremely popular explanation -- especially here in the UK. Catspaw wrote the following on (coincidentally) another thread dealing with the origins of the brass monkey/balls expression...

As to POSH.....I was absolutely sure it meant port-out,starboard-home until a few months back when on another thread, Sourdough pointed out the following from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"Oh yes, Mater, we had a posh time of it down there." So in Punch for September 25, 1918, do we find the first recorded instance posh, meaning "smart and fashionable." A popular theory holds that it is derived from the initials of "Port Out, Starboard Home," the cooler, and thus more expensive side of ships traveling between England and India in the mid-19th century. The acronym POSH was supposedly stamped on the tickets of first-class passengers traveling on that side of ships owned by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company. No known evidence supports this theory, however. Another word posh was 19th- and early 20th-century British slang for "money," specifically "a halfpenny, cash of small value." This word is borrowed from the Romany word påh, "half," which was used in combinations such as påhera, "halfpenny." Posh, also meaning "a dandy," is recorded in two dictionaries of slang, published in 1890 and 1902, although this particular posh may be still another word. This word or these words are, however, much more likely to be the source of posh than "Port Out, Starboard Home," although the latter source certainly has caught the public's etymological fancy.

Bummer huh?

I found Spaw's message while searching for the following info I had posted in a different thread (but thought Spaw's info was different/interesting enough to be worth posting here again as well):

posh       Swanky. Deluxe. [A direct borrowing of the form but not the sense of Romany posh, half. Brit. Gypsies commonly, if warily, worked with Brit. rogues. Shiv, Romany for "knife", came into Eng. through this association. Similarly rum go is at root Rom go, "a Gypsy thing," hence, a queer thing. Brit. rogues came to know posh in such compounds as posh-houri, half pence, and posh-kooroona, half crown, so associating it with money, and from XVII to mid XIX posh meant "money" in thieves' cant, the sense then shifting to "swank, fashionable, expensive" ("the good things money can buy").]
       NOTE: A pervasive folk etymology renders the term as an acronym of p(ort) o(ut), s(tarboard) h(ome), with ref. to the ideal accomodations on the passage to India by way of the Suez Canal, a packet service provided by the Peninsula and Eastern steamship line. The acronym is said to explain the right placement of one's stateroom for being on the shady side or the lee side of the ship. On the east-west passage it is true, the ship being north of the sun, that the acronym will locate the shady side (though time of year will make a substantial difference). The lee side, however, is determined by the monsoon winds, and since they blow into the Asian heartland all summer and out of it all winter, only the season can determine which side will be sheltered. The earlier dating of posh as glossed above sufficiently refutes the ingenious (but too late) acronymic invention. As a clincher, veterans of the Peninsula and Eastern, questioned about the term, replied that they had never heard it in the acronymic sense.

-- from A Browser's Dictionary
   A Compendium of Curious Expressions & Intriguing Facts
   by John Ciardi (published in 1980)

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Know all
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:07 PM

When people were hanged in the 16th 17th centuries....the relatives would run and grab their legs and body..putting extra weight on them so that they died quickly......hence the expression "Hangers on"

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

That's correct Torctgyd,

Iron balls on iron monkey in a pyramid... Same rate of contraction, balls stay put.

Iron balls in a pyramid on a brass monkey... Brass contracts more than iron and squeezes the bottom layer, till a certain point is reached when the balls are explosively ejected, flying all over the gundeck.

Got that from the guide when I visited HMS Victory, and he assured me it is historically correct.

Victory, of course, carrying Nelsons flag, used brass.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Torctgyd
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 06:26 AM

"show a leg" from the petty officers on Royal Naval ships demanding proof that the occupant of the hammock in port was not a skiving sailor but his 'wife'

Brass monkey story I heard was similar except that the balls fell off brass monkies due to the differential contraction between the admirals brass monkies and the iron cannon balls when the admiral went up north. The lesser captains had wooden monkies and these didn't contract and unseat the iron balls.

Square meal definitely comes from the square plates used on RN ships (but like stiff upper lip may well have been coined in the US).

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 05:50 AM

SSSHHHEEEEUUUUHHHH! The next thing you're 'gonna tell me is that chicken's don't have lips! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:37 AM

Actualy, Amos, you have to prove the blue-blood theory.

Nobody quite knows the origin of posh. The Port Out, Starboard Home has been shown to be false. A more likely theory is that it comes from Romani for money.

Doolaly is because soldiers stationed in the town of Deolal were driven mad by sunstroke.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: rich-joy
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:18 AM

re the "Bristol fashion" expression :
I had heard it was to do with the practice of having the mooring ropes going right round the boats (under the hull) to help keep them upright during the tidal variations (I think Bristol has MAYbe the second highest tides(???), after the Bay of Fundy) ... is this not true then??!

And so now you're telling me that the tour guide on Nelson's "Victory" was "pulling my leg" too, when he gave the traditional Brass Monkey explanation to us, in 1977 ... jeez!

And I really did believe that the Ancients daubed their skin with Woad ... how silly am I?!


OK, OK, so what about "pulling my leg" - and the variation "pull the other one, it's got bells on it" - origins?


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 04:00 AM

To nick, in the sense of to steal, derives from the laws governing the Derbyshire lead mines.

The mines were usually vertical shafts, with a winding gear called 'stows'. If a miner found someone else's mine that was not being worked, he could apply to the mining court, the Barmoot, to take it over. A notch or 'nick' would be cut on the stows at weekly intervals. If the original owner had not recommenced working after three weeks, the mine was 'nicked', that is confiscated and passed to the new claimant.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:54 AM

"Blue blood dates back to the ancient Britons using war-paint made of blue clay called woad. If one's family tree was traceable back to 1066 and beyond, one was clearly a blue-blood. That's my story and I'm stickin;' to it, unless some research proves I am full of it!!
"

Woad isn't clay; it's a plant. It's not very good as a skin dye, and almost certainly wasn't used by the Brits, unless they were daft, which is of course perfectly possible. The Brits, if they ever did use woad, stopped shortly after the Roman invasion of 43AD. The country was Saxon (and called itself England) when Billy the Bastard invaded, over a thousand years later. And most of the uppercrustocracy dated to the invasion (very few) or afterwards- the whole purpose of the conquest was to nick the peasants from the native bosses.

Apart from that, it was reasonably accurate, so I will not comment on your faecal plenitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 03:43 AM

Chokker... and all the other meanings of the term blocked, means that there is no more 'purchase' on a double block-and-tackle, the pulley blocks are touching each other, and so the tackle must be dissembled and re-rigged. Tedious.
Do not try to explain this to someone with a blocked nose. They will have no interest.

Nippers were ships boys and when the anchor was being weighed, their job was to tie (nip) the capstan cable and the anchor cable together, and then untie it a coule of yards on and run back and do it again. And again. And again. A gang of boys.
Am I making myself clear? The anchor cable did not go around the capstan, much too thick to bend. The endless capstan cable ran alongside it and was tied to it with hundreds of temporary 'nips'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Metchosin
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 02:16 AM

Does anyone know the origin of the expression for something being full, as "chocker block" or sometimes referred to as "chuck a block"?

I have a vague recollection that this expression originated in the lumber industry on the west coast of North America, but I have never been able to find out anything further.

Is it true that the word "golf" originated from "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden"?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 01:12 AM

'The cats out of the bag'

Came from the practice of placing the cat o nine tails in a hessian bag after it was made by the mad who was to undergo a lashing. The cat and bag would be handed over to the bosun's mate who would keep it until the punishment started and took the cat out of the bag. A sign of something nasty about to happen.

Kept it clean and ready for use. They were only ever used once, how hygenic can you get.

'No room to swing a cat'

Definately connected with the above. One needed room so the cat could be whipped back and brought down on the offender.

'Rubbing salt into the wound'

Following the lashing salt was rubbed into the mans' back, a cheap form of antiseptic not an additional punishment.

'Ship shape and Bristol fashion'

Bristol in Avon was a major sea port for the Atlantic trade. They prided themselves on running and maintining their ships so they would survive the sea crossings.

'Navy cut' as in tobacco. Tobacco was not normally smoked at sea on a warship, there being rather large amounts of gunpowder around.

So tobacco was rolled tightly in a canvas roll and bound, then soaked in rum and dried. Sailors would cut a 'quid' (yes that is a much used expression too) with a knife to chew. Hence Navy Cut tobacco.

Spitkids were placed throughout the ship. Woe betide the sailor who spat and missed, considered as an insult to the Crown they could end up seeing the cat come out of the bag.

'Gone doolally' Gone mad.

Comes from the time of the Raj in India where there was a mental home in a town called Dolahly (at least I think that is how it is spelt).

'A right lash up' Badly done.

After sailors were woken to come on watch on warships their hammocks had to be neatly and tighly trussed up and put in the netting around the upper gun deck. This was used as a form of protection during battle. On more modern warships when hammocks were still used again they had to be neatly and tighly trussed up for stowage. Badly trussed hammocks earnt the ire of the inspecting Chief or Petty Officers.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:32 AM

All info as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike---

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:15 AM

"The accomedations were POSH!"

This came from New York back in the glory days of the steam ships that sailed between New York and England. In the vernaculiar of the shipping trade, "POSH" stood for "Port Out, Starboard Home." (P O S H ) This meant that the more expensive cabins would be on the port side of the vessel leaving New York, and the starboard side of the vessel leaving England. Why? The sun would rise sooner on the starboard side of the vessel, being to the South, leaving New York and heading East. This meant that you could sleep a little later in the morning without the sun rising! (scrabble anyone!!!) Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Deckman
Date: 16 Aug 05 - 12:02 AM

"Jerkwater Town." When Sam Hill was building his railroad across the American West, he established a watering hole every few miles. He built a well and a windmill to pump the water up to a water tank, with a movable spout. Every 15 or 20 miles, a steam locomotive could find one of these water tanks where it could stop, and jerk the water spout down and fill his water tanks. He also established towns at every well. Hence ... "Jerkwater Town!". CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 11:48 PM

Like I didn't already have 10,000 different ways to waste time, now I'm gonna be stuck for days working my way through the Wordorigins.org site. Gee, thanks Mack.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

Hardly, Guy! Fascinating! Tell us more?!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 10:31 PM

All trades have thier stories . Here are some traditional pottery ones .            
               In the pottery world we have always used a "fettling knife" to claen up the edges on a leather hard pot. Being of fine fettle was all cleaned up. Hence   Your uncles "in fine fettle " meant he was dapper . The american vertion is often "He's in fine fiddle today . "
                One pottery in Ohio in the 1850's used to write on the side of the pots "Ol Korect "       ( All corect). Which was shortened to OK .. ( I know there are tons of other stories for OK but this is one of them ) As you know this tradional potter cant spell either!
                Working to a certain size pot meant you put a stick in some clay near the "turning table" and set a pointer to the finished height and width of the desired pot. Making pot after pot the same was called " Sticking to it " .
                "Turning out ware" was a term for making both pottery and wooden bowls : Pottery on a turning table and wood on a laithe .
                Bunging up the door of a kiln ( Cumbria UK ) was bricking up the door and frosting it with a layer of slurry clay from the workroom floor .
                  A bung of pots was a tower of pots in the kiln ( Yorkshire UK)
                  Turning a pot : turning upsidedown and trimming ( Cumbria UK )
                  Turning a pot :Making it on the wheel ( North Carolina )
                  Throwing a pot : Making it on the wheel ( Modern )
                   Jug : a small spouted vessle for poring under a gallon ( England )
                   Pitcher: a very large jug ( UK)
                   Pitcher : a small or large spouted vessle for poring (America)
                   Jug : a vessel closed at the top to less than 2 inches . (America)
                   Bottle:a vessel closed at the top to less than 2 inches (UK)
               

                   More then anyone really wanted to know . All the best Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:44 PM

This site, usually reliable, says that 'square meal is an Americanism. Alas.

If you really want to know, pm me and I'll tell you where 'OK' comes from. It's too long to post here. At least I think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:42 PM

Mack:

Blue blood dates back to the ancient Britons using war-paint made of blue clay called woad. If one's family tree was traceable back to 1066 and beyond, one was clearly a blue-blood. That's my story and I'm stickin;' to it, unless some research proves I am full of it!!

While it is true there was such a thing as a retainer called a brass monkey, it has nothing to do witht he expression and cannonballs. Freezing would tends to make the balls stay ON the brass, not fall out/off.

The bottom drawer and upper crust are suspect to my mind. Why not the upper and lower crusts of a pie, one of which is turned out neat and decorated up and the other merely a carrier of mincemeat?

A-who-is-not-blue-blooded.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:31 PM

If one works out of doors in minimal clothing, one is usually too tanned and chapped for the feint blue veins in the arms to be seen. Not true of aristocrats; hence 'blue bloods'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:24 PM

brass monkey

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,know all
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:17 PM

Oh yes it is my unknowlegeable friend. it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 09:15 PM

That thing about the brass monkey is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:58 PM

There is a site somewhere that has these expressions explained, but of course, tonight I can't find it.

I like the upper crust explaination. Bread was baked in wood or coal fired ovens. The bottom of the oven got covered in cinders and crap. When the bread was taken out, it was sliced horizontally. The nice clean top bit was given to the 'gentry'. The middle bit was given to the poorer members of the community and the crunchy cindered crusts given to the poorest. Hence, the rich were 'the upper crust'.

Similarly, if someone was 'bottom drawer' it was a reference to the habit of poorer people bedding infants in the bottom drawer of the chest. They couldn't afford to get a cradle, having neither the money or the space so bedded the infant in the bottom drawer until it was bigger.

Limpit spent the first 6 months of her life on top of a chest of drawers, there being no room elsewhere in our bedroom for a crib... what does that make her?

LTS

Subject: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Know all.
Date: 15 Aug 05 - 08:36 PM

So the British Navy in the 18th Century had square plates on ships so they would be easier to manage...Hence the expression "Square meal"
"Enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is also an expression from the British Navy regarding cannonballs......ie....when they used an iron 'monkey' to hold their cannonballs...the constant hot and cold caused expansion and contraction....when contracting...the cannonballs rolled off the 'monkey' so they used brass which was infallible as regards holding the cannonballs.....to freeze the balls off a brass monkey is an impossibility....... so "Enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is incredulous to say the least.
When a flintlock pistol was fired...sometimes the main charge did not ignite.....only the powder in the pan at the side...hence the expression "just a flash in the pan"

Any more please?