BS: William Wallace

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:05 AM

Gaughan sings this one doesn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:27 AM

yes he did.

He olny fought against a country that wanted to oppress the Scots, unfortunely it was the English, it could of being the Welsh or the Irish, but it was the English, that were the opressors, and in some cases still are.

Not to be taken serously

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:34 AM

I'm only kidding Scaramouche, OK.

Please don't take any offence at what I have written here.

You have your views and I have mine

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:35 AM

The song by Brian McNeill is excellent and warns us of the dangers of romantic, narrow Scottish Nationalism. I put similar sentiments in two of my songs written in the sixties, The Scottish MP and Culloden. Dick also sings the John MacLean Ballad by Hamish Henderson and Maclean was a fervent Scottish Republican who advocated an independent Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:35 AM

OH I have an ancestor called The black Douglas, and another one called Robert the Bruce.

Tam Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:38 AM

I'm not getting offended, but when people pounce because I used words like 'miscalculated'....

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:49 AM

BOTH SIDES THE TWEED
( Words trad, amended by Dick Gaughan / Music : Dick Gaughan )

What's the spring-breathing jasmine and rose ?
What's the summer with all its gay train
Or the splendour of autumn to those
Who've bartered their freedom for gain?

Let the love of our land's sacred rights
To the love of our people succeed
Let friends and honour unite
And flourish on both sides the Tweed.

No sweetness the senses can cheer
Which corruption and bribery bind
No brightness that gloom can e'er clear
For honour's the sum of the mind

Let virtue distinguish the brave
Place riches in lowest degree
Think them poorest who can be a slave
Them richest who dare to be free

I just like this song

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM

Thank you Scaramouche,

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:17 AM

Mind you, Edward's reasoning wasn't 'lets oppress the Scots', but rather how to deal with a potentialy dangerous kingdom on his borders. His ideal solution would have been a wedding, but unfortunately, Margaret died.
If Scotland were stronger, it would have done the same, in fact both sides were making inroads against the other for as longas there had been a divide.
As for 'self-rule' the concept, as we know it today, simply did not exist in most of the world.
19th century nationalism has coloured our view of the past almost beyond recognition.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:21 AM

And what about the Brythonic and Pictish people displaced by these Irish invaders?

PP

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:41 AM

I don't want to argue

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:34 AM

Me neither.

TTFN

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:40 AM

I think the word 'freedom' was used rather than self-rule. See the Declaration of Arbroath, 1320. And PS to Big Mick .. I still use my practice chanter!

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 10:49 AM

The term Self rule has been bandied about in this thread.
Even freedom, for the majority of people, what freedom?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 11:18 AM

Freedom from English rule. See The Declaration of Arbroath 1320, sent to the Pope. (you can google it or go here: http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 11:45 AM

What it basically amounts too, is the ruling classes not wishing to be ruled by anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:00 PM

Oh God, Scaramouche, firstly they are brigands and cattle thieves, now they are the ruling class! Just give up and read your history. Ta ta.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:10 PM

Look at who signed the Declaration of Arbraoth.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:44 PM

Goodbye Scaramouche.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 12:53 PM

Tell me these aren't the ruling classes:

Duncan, Earl of Fife, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray, Lord of Man and of Annandale, Patrick Dunbar, Earl of March, Malise, Earl of Strathearn, Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, William, Earl of Ross, Magnus, Earl of Caithness and Orkney, and William, Earl of Sutherland; Walter, Steward of Scotland, William Soules, Butler of Scotland, James, Lord of Douglas, Roger Mowbray, David, Lord of Brechin, David Graham, Ingram Umfraville, John Menteith, guardian of the earldom of Menteith, Alexander Fraser, Gilbert Hay, Constable of Scotland, Robert Keith, Marischal of Scotland, Henry St Clair, John Graham, David Lindsay, William Oliphant, Patrick Graham, John Fenton, William Abernethy, David Wemyss, William Mushet, Fergus of Ardrossan, Eustace Maxwell, William Ramsay, William Mowat, Alan Murray, Donald Campbbell,
John Cameron, Reginald Cheyne, Alexander Seton, Andrew Leslie, and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the whole community of the realm of Scotland.....

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

GOODBYE from Jim and me.

You're just becoming a pest, sorry to say, but you are. I'm not offended by what you write but there are others in Scotland and from Scotland who are.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 11:32 AM

So sorry about that but that the way it goes.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 11:36 AM

Goodbye Scaramouche

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 11:43 AM

Fine, but it's possible to be too touchy. Did I say Scottish nationalism was a bad thing? Did I saw you were wrong? I was only trying to talk about seven-hundred years ago, from an historical perspective. Different standards applied, different mentalities. What is so difficult to understand about that?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 11:56 AM

you are becoming a bore,

so goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 11:59 AM

Or maybe some people don't like to hear unpleasent truths.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:01 PM

all this thread was about the exsicution (spelling) of William Wallace 700 years ago, it was you that turned it into this thing about Scottish Nationalism from a historical point of view, but Jim McLean says firstly they are brigands and cattle thieves, now they are the ruling class! Just give up and read your history.
I just agree with that statement. It's just becoming a bit boring.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:04 PM

Scaramouche--

Great handle, by the way--Raphael Sabatini? As I recall, Scaramouche swashed and buckled with the best.

However:

Your list of the signers of the Declaration of Arbroath is basically meaningless. So it was signed by the ruling classes (who, surprise, surprise) also happen to be the literate classes.    Your point?

If the non-ruling classes were totally ambivalent about whether they were subordinate to the English or to the Scots, how could Wallace, and later Robert the Bruce collect armies, which were not all ruling classes, to fight the armies of Edward I and later Edward II?

One of the ways the English assured anti-English feeling, which made possible the rise of Wallace, and later Robert the Bruce, is by "extracting from the subject Scots, by taxes and sequestration, funds...so urgently required for the war against France". "William Ormesby, the Chief Justice...with a dog-like fidelity hunted out all who had not signed instruments of fealty, proclaimed them outlaws and seized their properties and goods. A growing band of outraged and dispossessed men" (and not all, I suspect, literate) "took refuge in the forests and mountains..." --from Robert the Bruce, by Ronald Scott.

Face it , Scaramouche, there was really was some anti-English feeliing in Scotland, even by some of the non-ruling classes, and possibly even some feeling of being Scots. Obviously, however, we'll never know what the non-literate classes really felt, so it's pointless to speculate. But your assumption that they were ambivalent has no more validity than projecting 19th century nationalism onto them, especially if any got the word that they were being taxed to finance the English king's foreign wars.


So unless, as I suspect, you are nothing more than an agent provacateur on this topic, it makes no sense to pursue it further.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:09 PM

Thank you Ron Davis, but mind you they'll proberly post another message I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:32 PM

I never said they were always ambivalent, but a lot of it was just venting rage, frustration and xenophobia. You might stand to gain something by it as well. However, the Declaration of Arbraoth is written by the rulers, to demand the Pope's support in regaining their power. The people didn't figure into the equasion much at all. They really had no say in it. Do you seriously think that if their tenants had said no, we prefer the English, these barons would scratch their heads and say 'you win some, you lose some.'
There were certainly more literate people than just eight earls, four high officials and twenty-seven barons. In fact most of those were only semi-literate. These were the people most hurt by English occupation, which was not one continuous rampage, pillaging, slaughtering and burning as they went along.

Tam, I wasn't the one who turned it into a discussion of nationalism, you'll find that that was Freda. I wanted to discuss him in proper context, that of his times. Apparently, it's impossible to do so. Seems that whatever one likes can be said about the English, but feelings are hurt if a fraction of that is mentioned about a Scottish hero.
Wallace lived by brigandage, it was his source of power. These are the sort of men around in 1296, Garibaldi and his ilk were a long way off.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 12:57 PM

Do you or do you not believe that Wallace was a Scottish hero, supported by enough Scots to raise at least one army which defeated an English army?. Nobody claims he is Garabaldi.

Again, do you have a point at all, rather than argument for argument's sake?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 01:17 PM

Wallace is a Scottish hero, and raised an army, but that is due as much to his magnetism, physical skill and success as it is to hatred of the English. You can be an unsavoury brigand and a national hero, they are not mutually exclusive by any means.
My point is look at things in context, not through modern lenses.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 01:24 PM

"Unsavoury" is in the eye of the beholder. As long as you concede he was in fact a Scottish national hero, that's the main point.

I think if you are saying we are projecting modern sensibilities onto Wallace, you are setting up a straw man. Congratulations, you knocked it down.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Neefmestier
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 01:42 PM

Still at it, eh, guys? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 01:59 PM

I had never said he wasn't. People seem to equate me saying Wallace was a brigand with Wallace being EVIL or not a hero. Everything ought to be in context.
If it's a straw man, someone else did the setting up.
To my opinion, he was an unsavoury individual, and frankly, I can't really think of any leaders who weren't.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:30 PM

Scaramouche--

"I do take issue with the haagiographic view"--straw man #2

"19th century view of nationalism has colored our view of the past almost beyond recognition" (what do you mean, "our" view, white man?)---straw man #3

Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 03:33 PM

Sorry about the faux-Finnish spelling of "hagiographic"

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:24 PM

Look at some of the other posts and tell me I was imagining things.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 05:54 PM

Not imagining things, just reading too much into them.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:15 PM

Like people, including yourself, read too much into mine?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:33 PM

Sorry, there you're wrong. I and any number of others can quote you chapter and verse from your own postings, if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:35 PM

But it's Saturday night here, and I have some better ideas to spend my time.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:48 PM

Because I have a differnet opinion that is?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Flamin' bloody Ego!
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 08:49 PM

That's the way, men! Have at it, I say. "Lay on MacDuff!" and all that...

There is no reason to ever admit defeat when an unsavoury opponent has DARED to express an opinion contrary to one's own or question the perfection of one's own position. Hell, no! Rather should we charge into the breach again, and again, and yet again, yea till the alleys and the valleys run red with blood, till the heads of the unrighteous are lopped off, and their entrails scattered to the four winds!

No slight will go unpunished. No idle word will go unremarked upon. Let forgiveness and mercy not be OUR code, but let us batter and pummel our feeble opponents into the ground with an unremitting flow of verbiage, statistics, facts, and opinions. Let us hammer them into insensibility with arguments so cunning, so determined, so repetitive, and so vicious that they cannot stand before them!

Let us humiliate them totally and reduce them to cringing helplessness before the irresistible power of our mighty words. Let us drag them in the dirt and trample upon their pitiable remains.

Forgive? Ha! The strong never forgive, never accomodate, and never compromise! Only the weak forgive! The strong seek only one thing...VICTORY!

Therefore debate, debate, debate, and carry on debating until no one dares speak another word in contradiction of our holy and perfect opinion, which, dare I say it, has the very sanction of the Allmighty and the unstoppable force of Truth on its side FOREVER!

And so quoth the Rampant and Glorious Ego, as it prepared, one more time, to hit a deadly and final "submit message".

CLICK!

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:00 AM

Scaramouche,

Why don't you give up, no one is interested anymore you are becoming a bore or a troll, so do us all a favour and just leave, yawn

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:05 AM

I told you Ron, there are people that will not take a telling.

The only way to Shut Scaramouche up is don't reply to them, however that might not work.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:11 AM

Alright I'll give up and hero worship Wallace from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:17 AM

At Last, oh by the way you don't have to hero worship Wallace, Ok.

don't be like that, I don't hero worship Wallace, either but he was good at what he did
But thank you for your contartbutions (spelling)

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:17 AM

AT LAST YOU GOT THE MESSAGE

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 07:19 AM

Scaramouche, I couldn't care less how you feel about William Wallace, you could hate his guts for all I care, it's just that you were becoming a bit a bore that's all.

Tam