BS: William Wallace

Subject: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:30 AM

today is the 23 of Aug, 700 years ago William Wallace was killed by the English.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:36 AM

I can't spell exscuited, see what I mean

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: kendall
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:02 AM

Was he betrayed by Robert the Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:20 AM

Jack Short, I believe.

Was Robert the Bruce's sister caller Roberta the Sheila?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:00 AM

it was by a person called Menteith that betryed him, there's a mounment to him in Ayrshire that tells you all about Wallace and the beytral that took place. It's just down the road from where Iive in Ayrshire Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:14 AM

By 1296 Scotland had been conquered, causing deep resentment. Many of the nobles were imprisoned, they were punitively taxed and expected to serve King Edward I in his military campaigns against France. The flames of revolt spread across Scotland. In May 1297 Wallace slew William Heselrig, the English Sheriff of Lanark. Soon his rising gained momentum, as men "oppressed by the burden of servitude under the intolerable rule of English domination" joined him. From his base in the Ettrick Forest Wallace's followers struck at Scone, Ancrum and Dundee. At the same time in the north, Andrew de Moray led an even more successful rising. From Avoch in the Black Isle, he took Inverness and stormed Urquhart Castle by Loch Ness. His MacDougall allies cleared the west, whilst he struck through the north-east. Wallace's rising drew strength from the south. With most of Scotland liberated, they were prepared for an open battle with an English army.

But Wallace was not a great general. He only fought in two battles. He famously won at Stirling Bridge, alongside de Moray, in 1297, when the English were left with 5,000 dead on the field. He became Guardian of Scotland but the position did not last for long. The Battle of Falkirk on July 22 the following year saw Wallace defeated by Edward's army, and he fled underground. It is thought that the basis of his authority among the people vanished soon after. During his subsequent travels in Europe, Wallace went to France and it is claimed he also met the Pope. But he largely faded away to evade capture, resurfacing in 1304. The following year he was betrayed by Sir John de Menteith while sleeping at a well near Robroyston. Tried for treason at Westminster Hall, Wallace was crowned with a garland of oak to suggest that he was the king of outlaws and declared guilty.

On August 23, following the trial, he was removed from the courtroom, stripped naked and dragged to Smithfield Market at the heels of a horse. His terrible fate was surpassed by the grim triumphalism of his enemies' celebrations. Strangled by hanging, but released near death, drawn and quartered and beheaded, Wallace's execution was completed at the Elms in Smithfield, London. His head was placed on a pike atop London Bridge, which was later joined by the heads of his brother, John, and Sir Simon Fraser, who had fought for Robert the Bruce. The English government displayed Wallace's limbs, separately, in Newcastle, Berwick, Stirling and Perth as a warning to others. But it did not manage to strangle the movement that Wallace had started. Instead he provided inspiration for the man who would help Scotland to victory at Bannockburn: Robert The Bruce. The debate rages on whose achievements were greater but more seems to be known about the latter.

Brown said: "They will both be remembered as part of the same movement, but if the Bruce had not been successful at the battle of Methven [in 1306] that would have been the end of his attempt to become King." Victory at Bannockburn followed in 1314. But it was not until 1328 that the Treaty of Edinburgh and Northampton ended the wars of Independence. Seven hundred years on, however, academics are united in saying that it was Wallace who started it all and that more should have been done to celebrate the anniversary.

taken from the longer article at
Wiiliam Wallace - the undisputed leader of Scottish resistance

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:30 AM

What Wallace was, no offence to Scots nationalists, was a brigand, much like the Balkan Haiduks.
There is no need to debate if he was a Good Thing or a Bad Thing, pointless really. He happened, that is all.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:32 AM

excerpts from "The Life and Heroic Actions of the Renowned Sir William Wallace, General and Governor of Scotland ", by Blind Harry. Little is known about Harry's life. He was most-likely born into a noble family perhaps from the Lothians and it is thought that he was blind from birth. He is credited with writing the 12 volume patriotic epic on The Wallace, around 1460.

Hynt out his suerd, that was of nobill hew,
Wallace with that, at hys lychtyn, him drew;
Apon the crag with his suerd has him tayne;
Throw brayne and seyne in sondyr straik the bayne.
..Wallace a lord he may be clepyt weyll,
Thocht ruryk folk tharoff haiff litill feill;
Na deyme na lord, bot landis be thair part.
Had he the warld, and be wrachit off hart,
He is no lord as to the worthiness;
It can nocht be, but fredome, lordlyknes.
At the Roddis thai mak full mony ane
Quhilk worthy ar, thocht landis haiff thai nane.

[When Wallace, to escape his enemies, had to disguise himself as a maid spinning, harry says quaintly..]

.. he sat still, and span full connandly
As of his tym, for he nocht leryt lang.
When their enemies were upon them,
His falow Stewyn than thocht no tyme to bide...

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:35 AM

With as much historical veracity as the Illiad.
Entertaining, though.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:35 AM

That comment is a red rag to a bull, La Scaramouche. A bit like passing off Ned Kelly as a common criminal. It neatly sidesteps and deletes the political motivation of William Wallace, that is, a motivation to return Scotland to self rule.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:22 AM

If you mean the brigand comment, I said like the Balkan Haiduks. Look them up and see.
Besides, self rule is a little more modern, but that's fine semantics.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:29 PM

Oops: he's on the telly right now. Byeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!
TB

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:52 PM

"It neatly sidesteps and deletes the political motivation of William Wallace, that is, a motivation to return Scotland to self rule."

Couldn't have said it better myself, Freda.

Imagine the person who verbally sacrifices somebody else for wanting to spread freedom and give people a chance to rule themselves.

It truly boggles the mind that some people would say the things they do about others.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:55 PM

Watched the film have you?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:56 PM

BTW, Hubby, do you know the Ballad of Boh Da Thone?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:59 PM

yeah...wasn't that a Bob Dylan tune?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:13 PM

Kipling:

Boh Da Thone was a warrior bold:
His sword and his rifle were bossed with gold,

And the Peacock Banner his henchmen bore
Was stiff with bullion, but stiffer with gore.

He shot at the strong and he slashed at the weak
From the Salween scrub to the Chindwin teak:

He crucified noble, he sacrificed mean,
He filled old ladies with kerosene:

While over the water the papers cried,
"The patriot fights for his countryside!"

I compared Wallace to Haiduks. Before you start accusing me of anything, look them and Klephts up.
Trust me, you wouldn't have wanted Wallace and his band within 500 miles of your land, freedom or no.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:15 PM

Please visit a website where much good research has taken place....
http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/wallace/
Copy and paste to your address bar...
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:58 PM

William Wallace - the Truth Behind the Man

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:16 PM

Freda..you link does not work for me...I just get my own E-mail out.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:20 PM

That's because it's mailto:

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 07:19 PM

One of a series of TV docudramas called Vic Reeves' Rogues Gallery, portrays Wallace as a con man & cattle rustler, who survived mainly by playing on the hatred between two Scottish Lairds (Argyll and Montrose).

He was reported to have specialised in arriving at the field of battle just too late to become personally involved.

Much as I would prefer him to have been the great hearted, honourable man so ably portrayed in the film, I suspect that the truth lies somewhere between the two.

What is certainly true, is that the progress of Scotland toward self determination and independence started, inadvertently or not, with him.

Maybe flawed, but a national hero nontheless.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:10 PM

Scaramouche you are such an intellectual snob.

Either provide a link or tell us what you're talking about.

What's next? Latin asides?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:34 PM

Let's try that link again:

Not Mel Gibson.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,William Wallace
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:57 PM

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!
Come up an fight ya cowardly crew
I'll have ye for
My pot of stew
Ye're feart tae fight wi me

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:10 PM

From: Scotland (Magnus Magnusson)--

"To the English, Wallace was merely a brigand; but his brigandage appealed to a deep-seated Scottish resentment of English domination and of the obeisance of Scotland's leaders to King Edward of England." ---- somebody who labels him only a brigand is wearing his sentiment on his sleeve.

Later

"Wallace was now a fully fledged-guerrilla (or terrorist, depending on your point of view), implacably dedicated to the destruction of the English troops who garrisoned Scotland's towns and castles, with a formidable band of disciplined, battle-hardened followers at his back."

Then, after Stirling Bridge, "Wallace and ...Murray were now the de facto joint rulers of Scotland, working in the name of John Balliol, the deposed king, and the people all over Scotland rallied to them--including most churchmen and some at least of the nobility."

So, it seems reasonable to say that at this point he had progressed beyond brigandage.

Obviously, complete objectivity is unlikely on this topic.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 03:22 AM

I didn't label him only a brigand. I compared him, si parva licet componere magnis (just to keep O'Lennaine happy) to the Haiduks and Klephts, who were brigands with political overtones. Koloktrones and Odysseus the great Greek leaders in their War of Independence are the classic example. Odysseus in particular. If one were to put Odysseus in 13th century Scotland, or Wallace in 1820s Greece, you wouldn't notice much difference. Brave, charismatic, intelligent, unscrupoulus and ruthless, for men of this sort, conflict was not a means to an end, but the end itself.
If one wishes to look at Wallace using 19th century concepts of nationalism, go right ahead.
Just remember that brigandage and revolt aren't incompatable.

"Then, after Stirling Bridge, "Wallace and ...Murray were now the de facto joint rulers of Scotland, working in the name of John Balliol, the deposed king, and the people all over Scotland rallied to them--including most churchmen and some at least of the nobility."

So, it seems reasonable to say that at this point he had progressed beyond brigandage."

Or worked on a larger scale.
I think Scotland and Northern England were probably very lucky that he didn't live to see peacetime.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:43 AM

Scaramouche sidesteps the English imperialist agenda here. Wallace was tried and executed for 'treason' in England although he was not English.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 08:00 AM

I agree Oh by the way I'm a Scottish Natianalist, I Just think that Wallace and Bruce were and are Scottish Heroes.

But we are different, Scaramouche arn't we

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 11:52 AM

Scaramouche says:"conflict was not a means to an end, but the end itself."

This may have been true of some of the leaders who are cited in the Haiduks and Klephts, but there is documentary evidence - surviving letters from Wallace to other European countries seeking to remind them of Scotland as a trading partner. Not the typical activity of a man whose only thought is of war, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 12:23 PM

"He was reported to have specialised in arriving at the field of battle just too late to become personally involved.

Now who does that remind me of??

Seriously though folks, I never went to see the Mel Gibson bowdlerised version of Wallace, for a start it beggars belief to see a Scotsman reputedly well over 6 feet tall portrayed by a short arsed Australian.
As for flawed heroes, most countries have them, but it is now fashionable to debunk them, there was a time after all when General Custer was regarded as a hero!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM

Hero yes, but doesn't stop him from being a brigand too. Like I said, it's futile to argue if Wallace was a Good or Bad Thing. I'm stating an opinion, not passing judgement.

Wallace was tried and executed for treason not so much because of imperialist agenda, but for being a big thorn in the English backside.
Legal niceties, like never having sworn allegiance to Edward, were just that, niceties.

There are also similar letters from Klepht chieftains, Koloktornes for one, so?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:13 PM

You once again miss the point, Scaramouche. The English had invaded Scotland and were aggressors. To describe Wallace as 'a big thorn in the English backside' is to trivialise the actions of the English. To be hung, drawn and quatered and then disembowelled while still alive because of a 'legal nicety' is rather a quaint way of putting it.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 02:31 PM

I said whether or not the charge of treason held was a legal nicety. The English weren't inclined to split hairs when they had captured the biggest nuisance to their power. neither were Scottish monarchs, or any others, when it came down to this sort of situation. King James and Black Jock Armstrong is one example, Henry VIII and Robert Aske, another.
Saying that Wallace was a big thron in the English backside doesn't trivialise anything. You are going into motive. Would you dispute that he was a complete headache to England?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 04:32 PM

The headache was purely self inflicted. We should accept that English aggression was thwarted by Wallace and led to the eventual emergence of an independant Scotland. The treatment of Wallace by the English after being betrayed by a Scot (nothing changes) should not be trivialised. I suspect Scaramouche is just playing a game .. Wallace = Mel Gibson, it's all a joke and the English were only doing their job.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 04:50 PM

A self-inflicted headache is still a headache, so what? Wallace's treatment was not really different from that of any other menace to royal rule, of any court. English, Scottish, French, what have you. This was not a particularly tolerant age.
I have never said Wallace did not lead to an independent Scotland, Edward miscalculated badly, but I do take issue with the hagiographic view.
And if you truly want to go into the small details, it was innocent people from both sides of the Border that paid the price for that struggle and conflict. Robert the Bruce, for instance, treated the prisoners at Banockburn humanely, but ravaged the north of England. Not to mention other actions, or similar English ones. Isn't nice, isn't pretty, but history. Do you really object to trying to get a warts and all view of Wallace?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 05:34 PM

No one is trying to canonise Wllace but in saying he was a 'menace to royal rule' (which he wasn't ...English royal rule possibly) and that 'Edward miscalculated badly' shows where you are coming from. Just admit that the English aggressors were eventually run out of Scotland and that Edward was a cruel and vindictive English monarch. He was also responsible for expelling Jews from England. Was that also a 'miscalculation'?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: GUEST,Edward Longshanks
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 06:54 PM

I know your kind, Jim McLean. I know the cut of your fallow kilt. You're a wretched Scottish wastrel, the same as all of you misbegotten, heathen knaves and cutpurses from the Highlands. I did my best to exterminate the lot of you and deliver the land over to those of far better blood, the English. If I had you in my clutches now, my fine feathered lad, I would have your eyes plucked out and your privy parts severed and stuffed down your miserable gullet. I would then have you flayed alive for the entertainment of the masses. I would then have you drawn and quartered and your various bodily portions cast into pitch and burned up in an oven. I would then expectorate upon the ashes. There is only one way to deal with those who stand in the way of England, and that is with stern, ruthless, merciless force and utter brutality...providing they cannot be bribed or otherwise persuaded. I was never found to hesitate in the breach when blows were called for. Nay, not I, for I AM ENGLAND! Remember my name and tremble.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: John O'L
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:27 PM

So Wallace died 700 years ago eh?
Scottish hero. Scottish icon.
An essential part of what Scotland is and how the Scots view themselves.

700 years ago did he smell of sweat under his armpits?
I don't care for the disassembly of cultural icons so they can be reassembled with Every Clean White Piece Of Truth clearly on display.
On the 11th November we can go after Ned Kelly. Does Robin Hood have a day of his own? King Arthur? Boadicea?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: John O'L
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 10:28 PM

Damn. Clicked the wrong button. I hadn't finished yet.

Well I guess I had.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:06 AM

I am trying to come from as objective a point of view as possible. I enjoy history rather more than myth-making.
Why a miscalculation, Edward had thought leaving behind the elderly and incompetent Warrenne with several English garrisons was enough to hold Scotland.
Much of what you call cruel and vindictive about Edward, was policy. Nothing terribly unusual there. No matter what your political slant is, there's no denying Edward was capable. Bruce was enormously capable too, his character notwithstanding.
Wallace was a very big menace. If Scotland were restored to independence, with an hostile king, the political consequences would be enormous. He had already tried to call on the Kings of Europe and Rome for aid.
Of course, I must be an imperial lackey.

John, some Australian recently, can't remember if he were a psychologist working for the police or what, had looked at Kelly's famous letter and said words to the effect of it being the whiniest, most adolescent thing he'd read in his life. GROW UP with how he summed it.
I'm of the view that one should try to gain as good an understanding of historical characters as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: John O'L
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 03:39 AM

I assume you're refering to The Jerilderie Letter?
Judge for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:25 AM

Dear Mr Longshanks,
Thank you for the hammering you gave me.
I shall now renounce my Scottishness and be forever English:
I will forego the kilt and never let a chanter pass between my lips again:
I will swear allegiance to Queen Elizabeth the 2nd of England:
I will castigate William Wallace as a brigand and always refer to him as Mel Gibson:
Likewise that other Australian ingrate Ned Jagger who also did not appreciate the niceties of English law and order:
I will wrap myself in the Union Jack with 'England' emblazoned across it and say along with Admiral Lord Nelson 'England expects .. all Scottish, Welsh and Irish mugs to fight for her':
And when the papers come hurtling hot from the press with headlines proclaiming world disaster, I will instead turn to the sports' page to see how England is faring at cricket, before scuttling up to the Palace for my Knighthood or some other gong.
Respectfully,

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:29 AM

So will I,

God I wish I never started this thread now.

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 08:46 AM

You know, Tam, just before I read your last post, I was thinking how glad i am that you started this thread. Apart from the rightroyalroosters, there has been some very interesting info on this thread.

freda

(daughter of Jean Wallace)

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 11:29 AM

Thank you Freda,

I was only joking about not starting this thread, I'm glad as well.

Tam

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Tam the man
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 11:34 AM

I like it when you have different opinons,

Even though some of them are really silly, but that is their views.

They are more to pited than scaulded

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 11:50 PM

Jim, loved your post. I agree with it, for the most part, in all its tongue in cheek glory. But if you are putting the chanter between your lips, we need to talk. Put the mouthpiece of the blowpipe in your mouth and finger the chanter, and your music will sound much better. Damn ........ I am getting aroused......

I'll get me bonnet and coat.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 05:08 AM

Here's some more petrol on the flames.
If Edward I were a Scottish king, he'd be remembered today as one of the greatest leaders Scotland ever produced.
I really have little interest in taking up politics of seven-hundred years ago, only in reading about them.
Never said castigate Wallace, Good Things and Bad Things only work in 1066.
Wallace was very dangerous to England and on top of it all, they wanted revenge too. Hardly likely to start scratching their heads over the legal definition of traitor. Any power would, and, does the same.
Jeddart justice ring a bell?

Subject: RE: BS: William Wallace
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:05 AM

( Words & Music : Brian McNeill )

I was listening to the news the other day
I heard a fat politician who had the nerve to say
He was proud to be Scottish, by the way
With the glories of our past to remember
"Here's tae us, wha's like us", listen to the cry
No surrender to the truth and here's the reason why
The power and the glory's just another bloody lie
They use to keep us all in line

For there's no gods and there's precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the land o the leal
And it's time now to sweep the future clear
Of the lies of a past that we know was never real

Farewell to the heather in the glen
They cleared us off once and they'd do it all again
For they still prefer sheep to thinking men
Ah, but men who think like sheep are even better
There's nothing much to choose between the old laird and the new
They still don't give a damn for the likes of me and you
Just mind you pay your rent to the factor when it's due
And mind your bloody manners when you pay!

And tell me will we never hear the end
Of puir bluidy Charlie at Culloden yet again?
Though he ran like a rabbit down the glen
Leavin better folk than him to be butchered
Or are you sittin in your Council house, dreamin o your clan?
Waiting for the Jacobites to come and free the land?
Try going down the broo with your claymore in your hand
And count all the Princes in the queue!

So don't talk to me of Scotland the Brave
For if we don't fight soon there'll be nothing left to save
Or would you rather stand and watch them dig your grave
While you wait for the Tartan Messiah?
He'll lead us to the Promised Land with laughter in his eye
We'll all live on the oil and the whisky by and by
Free heavy beer! Pie suppers in the sky! -
Will we never have the sense to learn?

That there's no gods and there's precious few heroes
But there's plenty on the dole in the land o the leal
And I'm damned sure that there's plenty live in fear
Of the day we stand together with our shoulders at the wheel
Aye there's no Gods

PP