BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:30 PM

Guest, did he ever say he was?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM

divis you are and never have been above the law. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

Oh memories of a hardboard panelled room painted light blue with two guys with English accents telling me what they know about me and how they can and will change my life. Endless passing of photographs and A4 sheets to eachother, and threats what would happen to a pair of pensioners in their seventies who happened to be my parents.

What has happened to the guest posts ? thought there would be a few in by now, you are slipping.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:39 PM

Good point Keith, I shouldnt have overlooked that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:33 PM

They did have reason to be suspicious.
Sweeney may or may not have been a memeber,he won't say, but he has told us that he knew volunteers.
Close links with known activists is reason to be suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:24 PM

Divis, as they had no reason to be suspicious of you, other than presumably your accent, then yes, I can agree with yu, they WERE in the wrong.

I would ask you not to 'dismiss' me just because I agreed with Keith in that I too, thought it was a pertinent question, if thats what you were doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:04 PM

Dave, I never thought that the English were anti Irish. Never had a problem at street level myself. As for Alison's experience, I couldn't think of making a comment about her remark, as someone posted above that Alison is actually me under another name ! God I wonder who's mind could come up with something like that ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:58 PM

Paul,
Firstly it was me I spoke about in that post.
Secondly, I was asked at the doors of both addresses by plain clothes guys to accompany them, I asked had I a choice, and was told no.
Thirdly I don't have a conviction record.
As you have so clearly stated that you are with Keith on this one, conversation over.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:57 PM

I don't think any of us doubted the held on suspicion situations, Divis. We know it did go on. Alisons statement was that a woman in Manchester was arrested because her neighbours thought she her accent was suspicious. In fact she was Scottish. I doubt that even the Manchester police would be so stupid but I did give Alison the opportunity to provide proof of her statement. Hope that clears it up and bear in mind the idea in this thread was to determine if the English were anti-Irish. Such heresay and potential falacies do not realy help anyone.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:40 PM

The other thing I was going to ask was, have you any idea what GUEST was on about here?:

..."GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

I remember a similar thing happening in Birmingham in 1974. They were a lovely young couple who lived beside us. Released four days later. Shame really."...

-its gone right over my head, frankly....unless he meant Guildford?

(NOT accusing that Guest of being you anonymously, btw...for one thing, YOU wouldnt have got it wrong!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

Well, that was what the P.M. was going to be about!

I have to say, that I agree with Keith in this, & if they were right to be suspicious of you, then you brought it up in a way that hardly fits the tone of the conversation!

As to terrorists wearing khaki (or DPM) thats a slightly different discussion.

& I say to both you & Keith, you are both rational, intellingent men, yet you snipe at each other like kiddies! BEHAVE! *G*

If you cant debate nicely, you shouldnt be allowed debate at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:25 PM

Hello Divis.

To be honest, no I didnt.

Yes I'm aware of such things as 'Internment Without Trial' of course, but wouldnt have believed that even at the height of The Troubles that Arrests such as that would take place here on the Mainland. Are we talking here though about being arrested because of refusing to go down to the Police Station to answer questions, or house being stormed, & carted off in cuffs under a blanket? (Maybe I'll need to ask Alison about the specifics of this incident, sorry).

As to the icidets you were involved in (I cant see that I have so badly muundertood that it WASNT yourself you were referring to, as your meaning does seem plain)...will send you a P.M. about that, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM

Sorry Paul, thought you were still in Hull under your own name. Only terrorists in my country wore khaki.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:12 PM

Sweeney, you have dropped enough hints that you were an IRA man, though you always stopped short of admitting or denying it.

If you were a terrorist, the police were right to stop and question you.

Even if you only had close links with known activists, you would be flagged up as needing careful scrutiny.

Nothing to do with your accent.
(B.T.W. It was your friend Alison M who brought up Manchester bomb. Will you have a word?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 02:03 PM

Paul, I just saw there that you seemed surprised that Alison had told you that some Irish girl known to her was arrested on suspicion. Why were you surprised, did you not believe her ? Do you want to know about a guy refused entry at both English airports and docks three times, 1975,77 and 78. Arrested and held for two days from were he was staying in Rainbow Hill in Worcester. Tortured by stupid questioning when he was staying at an address in Lena Gardens in London ? Paperwork kept as souvenirs here if you want to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM

Sweeney, I did not bring up the bombings, I just responded to what others had said.
If you have a problem with that, frankly I do not care.
You may remember that someone I care for was caught up in the manchester bomb outrages.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:10 PM

I have neither the inclination or motivation to get involved in this debate or yours. Change the record Keith. Go sign in as a GUEST and call me names or something. If you want to recall atrocities I can give you plenty.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 01:03 PM

Always seemed a bit of an odd place to target given the very high proportion of Irish in and around Manchester. Perhaps that is why there was not as much trouble about it as in Birmingham? Mind you, I would have thought a lot of Irish settled in Birmingham for the same reasons - Canal building.

And, to Den - Agreed. Stalker was a fine man and true to his concience. He lost his career because of it but he is probably all the better because of that. After all, at that level most police are simply diplomats and an honest and principled politician is something they cannot seem to cope with.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 12:46 PM

Many people, mostly shop workers and shoppers, were terribly injured by the '96 bomb.
No favours done to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 11:23 AM

Manchester had 3 bombings I can remember. 2 in 1992 where one went off where everyone was being shepherded from the first and the massive one in 1996 that did us all a favour by blowing up half that monstrosity in the centre. I attended Irish sessions in pubs in Moss Side and the centre before and after the bombs and never saw any predjudice from either the people or the police. Perhaps I was lucky. Perhaps the people of Manchester are more tolereant than those of Birmingham. I doubt it though. I still haven't seen evidence of people being arrsted for having an Irish accent which is what was said earlier.

The only joke I heard refering to any of the bombings was a wonderful Stanley Accrington song in praise of the pillar box that withstood the 3000-pounder.

"What's that red thing sticking out of rubble?
It's a postbox, Pat. Postbox, Pat..."

You can guess the tune.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM

To be honest Dave - I was living in Brum at the time. i can believe it and I know much worse stuff happened to lots of Irish people. The atmosphere must have resembled Whitechapel in the 1880's when jack the Ripper was about - a reign of terror.

The atmosphere is hard to describe.

Try and imagine it with these Al Quaeda blokes now. As a prelude the news on the TV every night was bombs going off in Belfast, and murders and our soldiers killed. then this McDade character blew himself up on the roof of Coventry post office. then these two bombs went off in pubs that everybody used in the city centre.

It all happened in a very short time. Up to that time Birmingham city centre streets had been as full at ten o'clock at night as they were at ten in the morning. After the bombs the whole place was deserted. People just scuttled out after work.

Irish folk singers were bluntly told to shut up if they sang a rebel song - apart from at the communist party folk club, where they had Brits Out all over the walls. People were rude and said awful things to anybody with an Irish accent - even to Irish children - (I was a teacher at the time). the Irish joke telling thing reached fever pitch - a defence mechanism maybe.

Grim times!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM

You're right Dave Stalker was a good man. Isn't interesting though, what happened to him and his career.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 09:30 AM

she was arrested because her new neighbours were suspicious of her accent that sounded a bit like an northern Irish person

As a Mancunuian of over 50 years standing I do realise that our police force are not perfect, although when John Stalker was deputy chief it was better than most. I have never heard of them arresting people for having the wrong accent though. Can we have some facts to back up this accusation and the one from Birmingham please? Either that or stop posting falsities.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

How angry those good people must have been at the IRA for bringing death, destruction and suspicion to their town.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Care to give us a link to exactly what youre alluding to, Guest? It will save us looking it up, wont it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:10 AM

I remember a similar thing happening in Birmingham in 1974. They were a lovely young couple who lived beside us. Released four days later. Shame really.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:04 AM

Arrested, Alison? What was the charge?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Alison M
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:40 AM

Hello, Guest Nick. What an interesting read about your experience of visiting England. I can remember reading a newspaper back in the 90s before the ceasefire took place in Ireland. An Irish protestant man claimed he had come over to England for a visit and he felt very uncomfortable over here because of his northern Irish accent, as his visit was just after the Manchester bombing by the IRA. The media hyped things up so much about the IRA during that time and this made all Irish people a suspect as being a member of the IRA because of their accent. I did know some people that feared the IRA especially during that time. For example, my friend had just moved house to live in Manchester and she was arrested because her new neighbours were suspicious of her accent that sounded a bit like an northern Irish person. It turned out that she was actually from West Scotland and never have been to visit Ireland in her life and none of her family came from Ireland either.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

Interesting thread and just thought I'd add my tuppence. Back in 1991 I went to England. At the time I was very self-conscious of my Irish accent, and the suspicion I felt of people watching me out the corner of their eye whan I was at the tube station or airport etc., and the sense I got of 'stay away from him, he's Irish'. Now it wasn't everywhere, and my guess is that the people that reacted like that suffered from cosmic xenophobia anyway. But it was there, as a definite feeling. Of course that was before the Ceasefire etc., and there were still signs everywhere about 'if you see anything suspicious...' etc., People I met on a personal basis seemd fine, perhaps at pains to prove they weren't biased. I probably got less flack than some of my friends, on account of my English surname (50% English family). I know many of my friends in those days got hassle at seaports, airports etc., and being forced to sign the PTA (the pink paper, we called it, Prevention of Terrorism Act form). One border official explained to my friend 'It's only because of the Irish problem, you see" My friend asked this guy if Northern irealnd was part of the UK, and of course the border official said it was, so my friend replied, "well, then, it seems to me to be more of an English problem than an Irish one" I don't know if he accidentally fell down a stairs after that one or not, but I believe he's still alive and well.

About 2002, up in Bushmills, an avowedly Loyalist town. The kerbside was still blue, white and red, The landlady in the B&B was nice enough, but back in town, lo and behold I couldn't get a bite to eat anywhere! Every cafe / restaurant I went to was 'just finished serving' or 'out of stock' (!) though I could see they evidently were not. But I guess my southern accent put them off. In the end, the good old chinese takeaway did the business.

Then I was over in Oxford one time to visit a friend (about 1998, maybe) and we all went for drinks in the pub with his work colleagues (English). They were all as nice as could be, and even at pains to show they were not anti-Irish, and some even searched hard in their minds to see if they had any Irish ancestry. I have to admit I was a bit bowled over and remember thinking "My God! It's gone hip to be Irish! The End must be Nigh!" It was all a bit of a turn around from the previous decade's experience.

I have quite a few good English friends and we share quite a laugh over Viz comic etc., But I must say I don't really like 'Irish' jokes a lot. One guy I know said 'you know why Irish jokes are so stupid? So English people will understand them' Now I think that wasn't very nice, but I could see where he was coming from. You do get an unthinking kind of person for whom the word 'Irish' is lazy shorthand for stupid, but often it just shows up their own ignorance. Liz Curtis wrote a very good book on the subject ("Nothing But the Same Old Story") and in it she recounts a typical example of this last kind of person: a British guy who'd gone on holidays and when he returned he developed his holiday snaps. Getting them back from the shop he discovered he had 24 close-ups of his left ear. "Must have been an Irish camera" he was quoted as saying in the local rag that bothered to report the story. Groan! Where do you start?
The tabloids have most to answer for in this regard, but they are soundly mocked by that excellent (and English) publication, Viz comic.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 02:15 PM

I think we have to step back and not make judgements on who is anti this and who is pro that. The fact of the matter is that no one that I know is anti-Irish , but they are anti-Irish politics. I don't think the media is anti-Irish not even anti- political murderers parties.

It is very sad that the amount of truth that is out there about events that have happened over the past thirty years has been swept under the carpet by the mainstream media. We all have been fed Pro British propaganda for the last thirty years and to be honest I was sick of seeing it on the news. I think we have look at who is benifiting from all of this "new Ireland" stuff have we all have duped ?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 05:37 AM

Getting back to the original question. My experience in living in England for a couple of years, and in visiting England often since then, is that yes, plenty of English people are anti-Irish.

These people have a complex of prejudices that interfere with their sight when they're looking at me. When they look at me, they see not me but what they perceive as "an Irish person", and their responses to anything I say or do are mediated through these prejudices.

I haven't experienced the same kind of prejudice among Scots or Welsh; but that's just my own experience. I've certainly seen headlines about Rangers-versus-Celtic battles and the like. (Though these sound more like what you might laughingly call religious differences.)

Reading down through the thread, I've seen some typical examples of prejudiced terms - "The Irish" blew up a postbox; jibes about Cromwell; stereotypes about Irish people bearing grudges, etc.

Perhaps a corrective for anyone with stereotypes about other nationalities would be to read Irene Nemirovsky's book(s) Suite Francaise, which she wrote about the occupation of France, at the time of that occupation.

Nemirovsky was the least prejudiced of people, but she has a sharp eye for its workings.

(It's the best book I've read in the last 10 years, by the way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

Guest, maybe youre right, but it may not be the one youre attempting to slander.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

Most people are pretty good people most of the time, but a few people are mostly crummy most of the time. Back at the turn of the 1970's, when Meathead accused Archie Bunker of prejudice, Archie answered truthfully, "I ain't prejudiced, I hate everybody!"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

We are not anti-Irish Alison as you will read above.
Only one member is.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM

I am British with some Welsh and Irish ancestors. I am not anti Irish, far from it, as I am very proud of my Catholic ancestors. There is nothing wrong with being Irish whether you are Catholic or Protestant. Both should be equal and have equal rights too to everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 05 - 09:57 AM

I take it you are a supporter then Kieran?;-)

I was once asked to support children in need. The woman with the collecting tin thought I had gone mad when I started chanting "Children in need (clap, clap, clap) Children in need (clap, clap clap)"...

Where are the two Tirs btw? I miss them. Or is it three Tirs, like a wedding cake?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Kieran O'Duinn
Date: 03 Oct 05 - 11:30 AM

Yay IRA yay IRA!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 11:11 AM

MY conclusions are:-

1   A good look at myself never did me any harm, a good look at others however can be a bit scarey ;¬)

2   I dont think that I am any more anti- Irish,than anti any other ethnic group

3   I am Brittish and English and a Northerner..... and (I hope) a human being for all that

4   There are some in here who have dug their holes so deep they are unable to climb out

5   Violent conflict damages EVERYBODY involved

6   Swinton folk club is great

7   I MUST go there tonight (8.30)

8   Anyone not going there (without a note from your parent / guardian) is a........ (insert ireverant expletive here)

9   Mudcatting is annonimous, maybe we should have a badge or a funny handshake or something to let other 'catters know we are part of the group .................... ....or not?   8¬}

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

OK - Let's see if anyone would like to give sensible summaries.

Let it fall off the end if they don't or ask Joe to close it if we get nothing more than white noise;-)
Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 09:36 AM

Good thread Dave - I think we got somewhere, with some good debate before the squabbling brats moved in.

It would be nice to to know if Tír Eoghain or any of the other useful contibutors have any final thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 06:46 AM

I think I may as well give up on this thread and request it's closure. Anyone object to that? Apart from a couple of children who may feel their ball has been taken away that is;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM

no we aren't free of such scum in dear old blighty - but at least there was always mudcat where decency in ones relationships with other human beings was accorded some value

and if murder and racial insults from the faceless ones (oohahh and divis jim) are the subject of merriment - expect a resonse from me

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 05:22 AM

If someone starts an attack on me or my nation. Do expect a response. It becomes clearer by the post the attitude of the English vistors to this thread. At least there was a lighter note to be found is this line from a post, renouned throughout Europe ! I could not agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:44 AM

"Good man(?) stigweard. Thanks Tir - man will do fine :)

It seems as though this thread is beginning to decend into the sort of bilge you might expect from people whose ability to debate a point is limited by their capacity for cogent thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,John Prescott MP for Fractured Jaw
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:04 AM

Oahh and WLD, You have it in one, the English have always acted reasonably when confronted with yobs, of course we are lucky in dear old blighty we are free of such scum,although I had reason to put some manners on a poor imitation with a stiff left to the jaw.

Our football fans are renouned throughout Europe for fair play and exemplary behaviour, and our soldiers have also shown through the ages that they are models of disipline.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM

there appears to be some sort of competition going for the most tasteless unpleasant remark.

there are some brilliant chatrooms on yahoo for people whose tastes run in this direction and there you can mix it with 14 year old kids from round the world in a sort of gross out olympics.

I just think mudcat is a classier joint, and you should both be ashamed of yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

Ooh-Aah2 Glad you see you must have get your end off. Well folks you asked were are we anti Irish ? Well your answer is here before you. Does this gentleman speak for you or is he typical of what we on the outside see at your football matches ?

And as to ..
What a fabulous reaction! Excellent. The nice thing about the 'Irish' Irish is that they always react so predictably; smack their bottoms and they always bounce nicely.

Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM

I have been following this thread with interest and believe that you are right, Dave.

Like any divide and conquer strategy, the last thing the power elite want is for the working class of Britain to agree that they are all oppressed by those that own and control the means of production.

The fact is that the working class of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales have more similarities than differences. God help the upper classes if the middle and lower classes ever join forces. Better to keep them at each other's throats and emphasize religious differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 03:53 PM

I could be wrong, Guest 08:33am but in this thread we seem to have convinced at least some of the people you may perceive as exteemists that the average Brit is not at all anti-Irish. It has also shown those of us who believed that all along that there was good reason for some people believing it was so. I agree that some will still continue to believe that and that is their perogative (sp?). We will also continue to see that there are some Brits that are anti-Irish and that the structure of 'Great Britain' by it's nature was to turn the English nation into a supremist state over our neighbours. I think it's very unfair to say that this thread illustrates your point when, to me at any rate, it seems to do the opposite. It has created a (mainly) civil and very productive dialogue between people with dis-similar points of view and brought those points of view closer together. If only all world politics could do the same:-)

Cheers

DtG