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BS: Evolution as Heresy?

JohnInKansas 18 Jan 06 - 12:17 PM
Amos 18 Jan 06 - 12:05 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Jan 06 - 10:31 AM
Pied Piper 18 Jan 06 - 07:58 AM
The Shambles 18 Jan 06 - 05:41 AM
Amos 17 Jan 06 - 03:56 PM
Bill D 30 Dec 05 - 11:47 PM
frogprince 30 Dec 05 - 09:53 PM
Bev and Jerry 19 Dec 05 - 02:29 AM
JohnInKansas 18 Dec 05 - 08:41 PM
Bev and Jerry 18 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM
JohnInKansas 18 Dec 05 - 01:13 PM
robomatic 11 Nov 05 - 08:23 AM
JohnInKansas 10 Nov 05 - 12:21 PM
TIA 10 Nov 05 - 09:46 AM
JohnInKansas 09 Nov 05 - 09:59 PM
Amos 09 Nov 05 - 03:12 PM
Mrrzy 09 Nov 05 - 02:47 PM
Bill D 09 Nov 05 - 12:28 PM
Amos 09 Nov 05 - 12:02 AM
Peace 08 Nov 05 - 10:47 PM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 10:21 PM
Peace 08 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM
Peace 08 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM
Amos 08 Nov 05 - 08:56 PM
Amos 08 Nov 05 - 08:11 PM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 07:49 PM
GUEST, TBPL 08 Nov 05 - 07:47 PM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 07:33 PM
TheBigPinkLad 08 Nov 05 - 06:28 PM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 05:22 PM
TheBigPinkLad 08 Nov 05 - 01:31 PM
Auggie 08 Nov 05 - 01:13 PM
Paul Burke 08 Nov 05 - 11:53 AM
John Hardly 08 Nov 05 - 11:08 AM
Bill D 08 Nov 05 - 10:43 AM
Amos 08 Nov 05 - 08:32 AM
Paul Burke 08 Nov 05 - 03:44 AM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 12:50 AM
Bill D 08 Nov 05 - 12:32 AM
John O'L 08 Nov 05 - 12:13 AM
Bill D 07 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM
Amos 07 Nov 05 - 08:17 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 12:42 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 12:01 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 11:54 AM
Bunnahabhain 17 Oct 05 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 08:08 AM
Pied Piper 17 Oct 05 - 07:56 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 12:17 PM

Amos -

Fire Sale?

On inferior merchandise that's now irreparably damaged.

Who'd want it?

And with the number of foreign investors who own the businesses that pull the strings on it, how the h..e..l..l would we know who has a clear title to sell?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 12:05 PM

PP:
The Onion is a highly reputable source of parody and invention.

Spoof? Why do you ask??? :>D

Their latest issue reports that Bush is having a fire-sale for the Federal Government which is going out of business. Everything must go!! Buy now!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 10:31 AM

In this morning's newsless rag:

[quote: OCR from scan]

4A THE WICHITA EAGLE
WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 18, 2006

Calif. district abandons intelligent design class

FRESNO, Calif. —

Under legal pressure, a rural school district Tuesday canceled an elective philosophy course on intelligent design and agreed never to promote the topic in class again.

A group of parents had sued the El Tejon school system last week, accusing it of violating the constitutional separation of church and state with "Philosophy of Design," a high school course taught by a minister's wife that advanced the notion that life is so complex it must have been created by a kind of higher intelligence.

[end quote]

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 07:58 AM

This is a spoof, isn't it Amos?

PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 05:41 AM

Tenet is defined on Word Web as : A religious doctrine that is proclaimed without proof.

Newton and his fellow scientists are expected not only to predict how the force of gravity will behave but are also expected to explain the force.

The simple religious tenet that some undefined and unproven God is dropping things on us from on high is OK.

Do I see the goalposts being moved here on a rather unlevel playing ground and under a double standard?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 03:56 PM

From The Onion Issue 41•33:

        Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory




KANSAS CITY, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling.


Rev. Gabriel Burdett (left) explains Intelligent Falling.
"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University.

Burdett added: "Gravity—which is taught to our children as a law—is founded on great gaps in understanding. The laws predict the mutual force between all bodies of mass, but they cannot explain that force. Isaac Newton himself said, 'I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.' Of course, he is alluding to a higher power." ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:47 PM

something to read

and something from Darwin himself...
"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."   - Charles Darwin








"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's funny...'.."   - Isaac Asimov


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 09:53 PM

Picked up a Christian station in Indiana while on our journey to spend Christmas with kin. They announced that it was almost time for a CREATION MOMENT, so I stayed tuned in out of morbid curiousity; so glad I did. I learned of the recent discovery of a mammal which existed at the same time as some dinosaurs. This proves, we were assured, that all animal life was created on the same day, just like the Bible has said all along...
Uhhhh...Oookay....


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 02:29 AM

Well, now the Doonesbury site has a new cartoon on it so you have to press the "previous" button to see the one about evolution.

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:41 PM

Bev and Jerry -

That Doonesbury even ran in the local rag here this morning - I'm surprised nobody's started a protest yet.

One of the locals has actually run some great ones on the subject. Fella by the name of Crowson. I don't think he has a website, but he got right to the point in several cartoons - and plays a great banjo. He's been doing a song about "*eyvolushun" that he wrote a couple of years ago. I should see if I can find a couple of his cartoons posted somewhere, but it will have to wait a bit.

* That has to be pronounced in "Fundamentalist Revivalist" tones for effect.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Doonesbury

Bev and Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 01:13 PM

People may have already seen similar reports, but an article in my morning rag gives a brief bio snatch on U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III, and reports that "This week he is expected to issue his decision,... "

My local won't have it on web for linking for a few days, and the article is fairly lengthy; but those interested can possibly find it in any paper subscribing to NY Times service:

Pa.judge preparing to rule on intelligent design (may vary)
BY LAURIE GOODSTEIN
New York Times News Service

A recheck of the ACLU-PA site where transcripts were being posted shows that they've cleaned up the missing and mangled, and you can now look at all 21 days of testimony. It's hard to pick a session that might have significance for those handicapping what the decision may be, but almost any at random is good for a bit of humor.

For convenience: Dover Trial Transcripts

For those who haven't looked, transcripts are .pdf and generally run 100 to 300+ KB per session.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:23 AM

To paraphrase Patrick Henry:

"If Evolution is Heresy, make the most of it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:21 PM

TIA -

Eight of the Nine school board members were defeated in the election on Tuesday. The Ninth one doesn't come up for election until sometime in the future.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: TIA
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:46 AM

The trial was front page in our local paper (Lancaster Intelligencer Journal) right on through.

And, on Tuesday, the entire ID-supporting school board was ousted. Intelligent voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 09:59 PM

Looking for information on when a decision may be rendered in the Dover ID trial, I was not amazed that about the only concise report (that Google found) is from the Register in the UK.

Pennsylvania intelligent design trial winds up

The Register says:

"Judge John Jones says he wants to have made his ruling by the end of the year, early January 2006 at the latest."

And additionally:

"Meanwhile on Thursday, the Vatican issued a statement warning against ignoring scientific reason, saying that by doing so, religion risks turning into fundamentalism. Cardinal Paul Poupard, who heads the Pontifical Council for Culture said:

"The permanent lesson that the Galileo case represents pushes us to keep alive the dialogue between the various disciplines, and in particular between theology and the natural sciences, if we want to prevent similar episodes from repeating themselves in the future."

"He also argued that religion could act as the conscience of science, citing the atomic bomb and the possibility of human clones as scientific ideas devoid of ethics."

(italics added)

The Register, in a separate story does give some concern that all the nut cases aren't exclusive US property though.

"It seems to me in many respects the cards are stacked against radical, innovative views getting a fair hearing in science these days," he said.

The guy obviously hasn't looked at much modern physics if he can't see radical all over the place ...

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 03:12 PM

You go, gal!! LOL!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 02:47 PM

And the Dover, Pennsylvania trial is over (parents sued because the school board inserted ID into the biology curriculum) - I can hardly wait to see the verdict. Here you are:
EVOLUTION
All of the tune and most of the lyrics are shamelessly poached from the Beatles' "Revolution"
What little rewriting and rearrangement I did was to follow an actual (I almost said honest-to-god) Evolution on Trial case, Kitzmiller et al. v. the Dover Area School Board, of which the Alan Bonsell whom I mention is an outspoken member. If you haven't been aware of this case, I envy you unless you have children in the US public school system.

You say we're teaching evolution, well, you know
We all want to feed our head
You say you've read the constitution, well, you know
You better free your mind instead
Cause when you talk about destruction
Of Jefferson's wall, well, you can count me out
Without science it will be(shoobedoo) all night
all night, all night
all night, all night, all night
all night, all night, all night
All…
ID, you say, 's a real solution, well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
Don't ask me for my contribution, well, you know
Let's wait and see the judge's hand
For if you want money from people with minds that think
You better think too or baby your cause will sink
If we can't learn it will be (shoobedoo) all night
all night, all night
all night, all night, all night
all night, all night, all night
All…
You say all change is revolution, well, you know
The Middle Ages weren't so free
You say that in your institution, well, you know
"Because I Heard So" trumps "I see"
But there you go carrying pictures of Allan Bonsell
If I were a Christian I'd say you should go to Hell
If we can't teach it will be (shoobedoo) all night
all night, all night
all night, all night, all night
all night, all night, all night
All…


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 12:28 PM

"from false premises, anything follows."


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 12:02 AM

The likely implementation is that any course which teaches Darwinism, neo-Darwinism, or any other intimation of evolution will ALSO have to say that the theory is countered by those who can't figure it out. No, no, I mean countered by those who don't "do" math. No, that's not it...um...the teacher will have to also include that in clear spite of math and of evidence, some people are so uncomfortable with the physics that they retreat into puerile tribal beliefs... no, wait... the teacher will have to say that some people think evolution is MUCH too complicated to understand and therefore they posit that Cosmic Awareness must be guiding the unfolding of evolution. Of course these people also believe the spirit of God rides every hydrogen atom and directs its turnings, but, once you cast off reason, any port can be your home, I guess.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:47 PM

Sign of the times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:21 PM

So What's going on in Kansas anyway? How is this going to be implemented? Are qualified teachers going to be expected to teach 'Religious Mythology 101', or are community volunteers (we call them Sunday School Teachers) going to just wander in and tell the kids whatever fantasy occurred to them that morning over breakfast?

Will it be examined or assessed? Will it count towards school qualifications? Will Muslims be given equal class time? What about Native Americans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 09:31 PM

Dang. Yeah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM

Now wait a minute Peace, that really did happen. I saw it on TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM

Well, Dorothy . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:56 PM

In other sad news, the Kansas State Board of Education today voted 6 to 4 to teach creationism -- or, sorry, "intelligent design" alongside of Darwinian evolution. Some of the students currently in their senior year said, "We're glad we're seniors -- we feel sorry for the kids who are going to come after us under these new rules."

The Scopes Trial has just been wasted in the headlong rush back into Medieval times rules by superstitions and authorities, so dearly beloved by those who cannot conceive of a world where free and intelligent discourse defines the course of history, rather than priests and their pet boojums.

I am very disappointed in Kansas and especially the State Board; I am willing to bet none of those 6 is capable of first-order statistical analysis nor could think his way out of a paper bag half full of water. The "too complex to be evolutionary" argument was thrown out of court within Darwin's lifetime, and here these Bible thumpers want to reverse the course of history.

It is disgusting, a paean to ignorance and its elevation to a cultural standard.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:11 PM

The system exists only and solely because of its subscribers; my use of the word includes and hinges on the participants, their minds, AND their system -- what else?? You are splitting hairs to no genuine clarification.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:49 PM

LOL. Good one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST, TBPL
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:47 PM

I was just scared Auggie was about to deify Amos and run off and form a religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:33 PM

Yeah, OK, I agree that the language needs to be used correctly, but I don't like seeing informative discussions being sidetracked by arguments about the correct use of a word.

...and here I am creating that very monster...Igor! Turn it OFF!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 06:28 PM

I know exactly what he typed, John. I also know what I think he means. Not the same thing. How can you know that I know what he's saying? I don't know myself half the time ;o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:22 PM

Semantics, BPL.
You know what he's saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 01:31 PM

Science , being amoral, cannot become immoral. A sytem does not have personality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Auggie
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 01:13 PM

Amos-

"religion tends toward non-rationality and uses that freedom to be easy about irrationality . Science, in turn, being a-moral in its nature, often doesn't mind becoming immoral."

What a poignant, pithy turn of a phrase. Well said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:53 AM

That's right, John, science has NO conscience. Scientists do (usually).

And "was" is not the same as "should be"- the fact that people did "x" 2000 years ago has little bearing on whether "x" is the appropriate thing today. Religion also can be a useful informer, but all to often has not only no scruples, but no memory of what went wrong last time.

Examples:

Good: Sermon on the Mount, Mullah Nasruddin, Zen tales
Utterly neutral: go to church/mosque/synagogue, wear yarmulka or headscarf, food rules applied to yourself
Dodgy: social exclusivity, eye-for-an-eye, sex discrimination
Plain bad: stone the adulterers, smite the Philistines, recover Jerusalem from the Christians/Jews/Moors, enslave the nonbelievers, start an inquisition, kill the XXX people.

And they are good ------> bad independently of whether they are sanctioned by religion or not. Morality, as you correctly point out, is a matter of humans living together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:08 AM

"I'd broadly agree, except to add that the religions must show that their moral strictures have better backing than "it says so in a controversially- translated book". "

...and if man wants to live together in peace, and with peace of mind, he cannot infer that what science teaches us is that "can" is the same as "should". Science is a great informer but a lousy conscience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 10:43 AM

a nice distinction, Amos....but I fear that it's nuances wouldn't/won't be grasped by the ones who need to hear it, and thus the implications never explored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:32 AM

Science and religion can write handily about each other when they are both rational. There may be no counting the number of the mythical Beast, but all kinds of studies are possible about statistical impacts of belief systems, brain-body interactions, sociological tallies of out-of-body experiences, and it is likewise natural to assess the moral and spiritual implications of, for example, nuclear power, DDT, or polcies relating to charity.

But the big issue is that religion tends toward non-rationality (given its nature) and uses that freedom to be easy about irrationality as well. Science, in turn, being a-moral in its nature, often doesn't mind becoming immoral.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 03:44 AM

The Catholic church has had little problem with evolution for many years now. I think they are just staking a claim for some metaphorical core in Genesis, that somehow God really in some mysterious way started it all.

This is more-or-less the leftpondian consensus for the last three-quarters of a century. It's really only the US fundies and their third- world imitators who still stick to the every-word-in-the-Bible line.

Stephen Jay Gould, an excellenty science writer who thought he was superceding Darwinism when he was actually improving it, pushed the idea that science and religion are separate domains, and that religion has nothing to say about science, whereas science has nothing to say in the moral sphere. I'd broadly agree, except to add that the religions must show that their moral strictures have better backing than "it says so in a controversially- translated book".


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:50 AM

I did realise that Bill, I just couldn't resist having a bit of a dig.

I don't think there will be much sense coming immediately from the hardcore fundamentalists, but there does seem to be the wiff of consensus in the air at last.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:32 AM

I don't think you got my cynical little remark, John...it's "what a wonder that a major theologian managed to admit that evolution IS the process that is at work, whether started by God or not....now let's hear some others agree."


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:13 AM

Am I reading you correctly Bill?

"the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

That's OK by you?

Is some kind of consensus just around the corner?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:17 PM

will wonders never cease! Now, let's hear Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell say "ditto"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 08:17 PM

Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
From:
By Martin Penner

November 07, 2005

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.
His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.

... (From an Australian new site).


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 12:42 PM

There is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the existence of a divine spirit. Searching for knowledge, gaining insights to life we stumble and fall, sometimes we find wonderful things. What has been created, does not mean that creation is completed, the creator may very well be creating new things for us to discover even now. Einstein said "I want to know gods thoughts, all else is just detail" As for proof, you are here now, and are your own proof of existence of spirit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 12:01 PM

Evidence Guest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 11:54 AM

Since man created and measured time to suit his own purpose time is a man made creation. To the creator, time is not that an important issue and is therefore very subjective.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 09:42 AM

organised religious belief exists even amongst scientists

It does, but almost always in a form that says religion should be concerned with how we should live our lives, and leaves the how life works to science.

The concept of a Creator starting everything off is one thing, and is just as verfiable as any other explanation for the big bang, but the concept of a Creator who feels the need to tinker with here and there, now and again just doesn't fit the evidence we have.

You have to have a very special kind of faith to, for example, as a Geologist know this rock is 380 million years old, formed over thousands of years, from the scientific evidence, and also know that it was created 6000 years ago in one day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 08:08 AM

If you study history Pied Piper you will find that the freedom from superstition and brainwashing was hard won by many members of organised religion. Extremists of any ilk are detrimental to all pholosophy and progress; however organised religious belief exists even amongst scientists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution as Heresy?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 07:56 AM

This "puppetmaster" nonsense, is just another "Paley's watch" argument, and leads inevitably to an infinite regress of creators and created (philosophy 101)
Our ancestors fought to free themselves from this outmoded medievalist superstition and get at the truth by direct contact with the world, un-filtered by the brain washing of organised religion.
If you think free people are going to role over and let the intellectually lazy snake-handlers and happy-clappers pervert the education of children, you'd better think again.

PP


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