BS: Circumcision: pros and cons

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:11 PM

" The stupidest thing I ever heard of was slow suicide by cigarette smoking."
I'm not likely to disagree... The difference is, I'm not FORCING MY smoking on a helpless infant.... Slow suicide? So what... all living is slow suicide...   Ya wanna live forever?

"what do you think of tattoos and body-piercing"
You talking about doing it to yourself, or FORCING it on somebody else?    It's your body, and if you wanna cram broken glass up yer butt, I don't give a tinkers cuss... If you wanna claim that "GHAD" or TRADITION or whatver tells you you should cram it up yer childs back-side... That I have a problem with....

"I suspect there's more than a little cultural arrogance in your opinnions"
A little?!?! Try a LOT... I'll yell it from the roof-tops "I'm a better human being than ANYONE who elects to mutilate their children! Especially the ones who do it while hiding behind mythology!!!"

"I ain't Clinton"
You're SOOOOO lucky mate! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:07 PM

Oh, right, I happen to disagree with tattooing, so you must be a barbaric scumbag!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:54 PM

I ain't Clinton but I wanna answer the last question. The idea of getting my navel pierced makes me want to puke. Tattoos wouldn't bother me a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:53 PM

Oh, Clinton, I must ask, what do you think of tattoos and body-piercing?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:51 PM

No, what has been shown is that the benefits aren't enough to justify terming it theraputic. Not that there aren't any. For all I know that's only one opinion. Find me a medical issue where opinions aren't divided or as plentiful as there are doctors.
To return to my original point, it is quite fatuous to compare male and female circumcision, simply because snipping a piece of skin off is distasteful to you. It downplays one (which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies) and to overstate another.
The difference between what I was saying and the examples given in your post above is that they are done unto others. Circumcision occurs to YOU, if it's that awful, you won't do it to your son. I suspect there's more than a little cultural arrogance in your opinnions.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Shmuckie
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:48 PM

Clinton Hammond sez "Circumcision, of either sex, in the name of "GHAD" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard..."

The stupidest thing I ever heard of was slow suicide by cigarette smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:40 PM

http://www.cirp.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:36 PM

Circumcision, of either sex, in the name of "GHAD" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard...

"What benefits, more hygenic(sic.) for one."
Already shown in this thread to be erroneous... So, got any other supposed benefits?

" There are millions of people in the world"
There are millions of people in the world who think it's o.k. to leave first-born daughters out in the elements to die...
There are millions of people in the world who think women and children are property...
There are millions of people in the world who think it's o.k. to kill in the name of some mything being...

Are they as right as the millions who think that mutiliation for NO good reason is o.k.???

"would resent your assertions"
F&*k 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:27 PM

No need to check, most Israelis are. Jews are and Muslims too, there's most of the populace for you.
As to not responding to Bobad's post, I did. If you like the answer or not, that's your problem.
What benefits, more hygenic for one.
"I could take a small child and cut the end of their little finger off and they'd grow up to suffer no 'ill effects' except for occasional malpractice accidents...."
This pretty much shows you either don't know how or don't care to read what people actualy said. Those who suffer any ill effects are because of accidents caused during the procedure, which are quite rare and happen in all fields of medicine.
There are millions of people in the world who are none the worse for circumsion and would resent your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:20 PM

I knew a guy who claimed he'd done it to himself on purpose with a buck knife at the age of twenty-five.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:20 PM

"I live in a country where most males are circumcised"
You've checked them have you?

"the only ones I know who've suffered any ill effects"
I could take a small child and cut the end of their little finger off and they'd grow up to suffer no 'ill effects' except for occasional malpractice accidents.... doesn't make it right to do does it...

Oh... wait... I asked this question before... and you couldn't put a good answer to it then either...

You also chose not to respond to bobad post... So I'm gonna quote it here so you have no excuse except being out to sea....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
A common error made by those who want to justify infant male circumcision on the basis of medical benefits is that they believe that as long as some such benefits are present, circumcision can be justified as therapeutic, in the sense of preventive health care. This is not correct. A medical-benefits or "therapeutic" justification requires that overall the medical benefits sought outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure required to obtain them, that this procedure is the only reasonable way to obtain these benefits, and that these benefits are necessary to the well-being of the child. None of these conditions is fulfilled for routine infant male circumcision. If we view a child's foreskin as having a valid function, we are no more justified in amputating it than any other part of the child's body unless the operation is medically required treatment and the least harmful way to provide that treatment.

From Margaret Somerville, director of McGill University's Mcgill centre of Medicine, Ethics and Law
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll wager you're still gonna be out to sea...

You keep talking about benefits... like???

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:02 PM

Circumcision: pros and cons / Home made mouse traps

Nooooooooo!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:40 PM

Doesn't say no benefits. I live in a country where most males are circumcised and the only ones I know who've suffered any ill effects, are as a result of malpractice, something which occurs enough in all fields of medicine.
So no, I don't think one is justified in calling it mutilation or barbarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:29 PM

Benefits my arse... The biggest problem 98% of men have with fore-skin is a little smegma... and if he neglects his hygiene that badly, he's probably got bigger problems anyway...

They might have ta wipe their bums someday, so maybe it'd be better to cut those off of infants too eh.....

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:29 PM

Le Scaramouche

In regards to your statement of "plenty of benefits for boys" please read my post of 13-OCT-2005 @ 7:41. This quote is taken from a book (The Ethical Canary) written by this lady with whom I've had the privilege of working. She has degrees in both medicine and law and directs the McGill Centre of Medicine, Ethics and Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:17 PM

Love your new tactic.
I don't accept that it is mutilation, anymore than most operations are. It causes no harm and has plenty of benefits for boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:05 PM

Well, in that case, it's a spurious argument at best... If I punch you in the face today, later in life it won't cause you pain either... Doesn't make it O.K. to punch you in the face, does it?

Seems to be a pretty scummy thing to do... to be arguing in FAVOUR of mutilation...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:53 PM

Perhaps you ought to read first, as I said no pain in later life.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:34 PM

" It causes no pain?

Bull and shit!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:04 PM

It is no more mutilation than having ones tonsils removed. It causes no pain, discomfiture or complications in later life.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:58 PM

'The opening line reads, "Call me Ishmohel."'

THAT is good.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:55 PM

There was a rumor floating around that the barstools on Aristotle Onassis's yacht were covered with whale foreskins. This engendered a lot of the kind of jokes one might expect, such as "If you rub them just right, they, turn into couches." I heard this some time ago and assumed it was an urban legend, but I couldn't find anything on it on Snopes.

But it turns out that apparently there actually is a fair amount of trading in whale foreskins. This is thoroughly explained in a book by someone who makes his living harvesting whale foreskins. I can't recall the title of the book, but oddly enough, it does contain the word, "Dick."

The opening line reads, "Call me Ishmohel."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:52 PM

"Is it true circumcised males can't"

Not remotely

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Richard H
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:45 PM

My brother's wife was previously married to a Jew and had a son who was circumcised. My brother always told me the boy could never... enjoy himself in the bathroom.

Is it true circumcised males can't... because there's nothing to ... back and forth?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 01:12 PM

But if everyone stops doing it, you won't be able to get those little bags of what they sell as "pork rinds" anymore...

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM

"there certainly are religious ones"
Another good reason to ban the idiocy of religion!

"how barabric it is and comparing to female circumsion(sic.), it sounds like you haven't a clue."
Sorry... you're the one without a clue... it's mutilation... for NO good reason... In either sex

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: JennyO
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 12:02 PM

Crossposting is a bugger, isn't it!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 11:58 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 11:57 AM

"You think female circumcision is considered to have "no benefits" by the cultures that practice it? You think wrong."

No, I said it presents no benefits!

Redhorse, if one believes in God (or that of the Bible), there is nothing blasphemous about circumcision. Have a look at Genesis 17.

Joe, glad to hear, but I've known several people who had it done in their 30s. They were in agony for weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:56 AM

There was a joke about a wallet made from an elephant foreskin. Need more room? Just rub it a little and it expands into a full-size suitcase.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: bobad
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:35 AM

Did you hear the one about the zoo employee whose job was circumcising the elephants?

It didn't pay much but the tips were huge.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:25 AM

A man walked into a small shop that had hundreds of watches and clocks in the front window. He produced a wristwatch from his pocket and placed it on the counter in front of the shopkeeper.

"I'd like to have this repaired, please."

The shopkeeper looked at him oddly and said, "We don't repair watches here."

Surprised, the man asked, "If you don't repair watches, do you sell them?"

"No." The shopkeeper replied.

"Well!" The man said with a growl. "Why, then do you have so many timepieces hanging in your front window?"

The shopkeeper answered, "I do circumcisions. What would you put in the window?"

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,redhorse
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:19 AM

Maybe we should think of it in terms of Evolution. If you beliieve in ID, God put the foreskin there, so cutting it off is tantamount to blasphemy. If on the other hand you believe in Darwinian evolution, its presence must have conferred an evolutionary advantage otherwise it would have disappeared; why deny the child that advantage?
Either way, Woodman spare that tree!

nick

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:59 AM

Circumcision was almost unknown among the non- Jewish community in Salford in the 50s and 60s. So much so, that when our old-maid teacher, Miss Daly, had to explain the meaning of the Feast of the Circumcision (Catholic January 1st) to us as 7 year olds, she told us that circumcision meant that they cut a circle of skin- from his ARM.

This is what Jesus thought about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:57 AM

Scaramouche, who are you accusing of being clueless? You think female circumcision is considered to have "no benefits" by the cultures that practice it? You think wrong. They think there is a benefit, but unfortunately the "they" who do the deciding are males (with adult females as proxy) who are practicing superstition and maintaining control over the women who are altered in this way. The point of that example was that what one culture approves another might not, and it is perspective and knowledge that temper the choice to mutilate a sex organ or not. So why do you think that a practice in the Western world of circumcising boys shouldn't be held to the same gaze, and found wanting? Because it hurts a little less?

It is unnecessary. And if small boys aren't taught how to keep it clean, then there is the problem. Teach the parents how to teach the child, don't just cut off the flap of skin because it is expedient.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:44 AM

let me correct you on that Scaramouche : with a general anaesthetic it doesn't hurt hardly at all . I had to have the operation last year and was absolutely petrified at the thoughts of the pain ;I thought I'd be in agony for weeks afterwards ,but that wasn't the case.On the scale of pain from one to ten with a terrible toothache at ten and the discomfiture of a mild cold ranked at one , I'd rank the pain of circumcision at one and a half.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 09:24 AM

Those of you going on about how barabric it is and comparing to female circumsion, it sounds like you haven't a clue. The latter truly is barbaric, inflicting great pain and agony whilst presenting no benefits, with the former, you get it over and done with, it hurts for a few days and then is gone. Never given me any touble in 22 years.
Of course, if you do it in adulthood, hurts like blazes. That's why Judaism says eight days. I'm not really sure why Muslims do it in later childhood, but it's still better than having it done as an adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:49 AM

Sort of peripherally relevant:

God was just about done creating man, but he had two things left over in his bag and He couldn't quite decide how to split them between Adam and Eve. He thought He might just as well ask them. He told them one of the things He had left was a thing-a-mabob that would allow the owner to pee while standing up. "It's a very handy thing," God told them, "and I was wondering if either one of you had a preference for it."


Well, Adam jumped up and down and begged, "Oh, please give that to me! I'd love to be able to do that! It seems like just the sort of thing a man should have. Please! Pleeease! Give it to me!" On and on he went like an excited little boy.

Eve just smiled and told God that if Adam really wanted it so badly, he could have it.

So God gave Adam the thing that allowed him to pee standing up. Adam was so excited he just started whizzing all over the place -- first on the side of a rock, then he wrote his name in the sand, and then he tried to see if he could hit a stump ten feet away -- laughing with delight all the while.

God and Eve watched him with amusement and then God said to Eve, "Well, I guess you're kind of stuck with the last thing I have left"

"What's it called?" asked Eve.

"Brains," said God.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:31 AM

I know who you mean SJ and he's a right "winker"
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Sooz
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 08:29 AM

Grooooan

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,andy
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:43 AM

I don't care, it's no skin off my nose!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:33 AM

Does he wink whenever...?

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:23 AM

A pal of mine had his son circumcised and they used the piece of skin to repair a damaged eyelid. His dad thjought it might give him greater foresight, but his mother was worried it might make him cock-eyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:10 AM

Mine's in a jam jar - I can take it or leave it, I some times wear it in winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM

Apparently though, my mother told me much later, that the Hospital had told her that in my case, the circumcision had been a BIG job!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:01 AM

Ah.... there would be some who say they threw the wrong bit away..... *BG*

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:58 AM

dianavan,
         WHAT are you on about?? My and all my mates were circumised at birth in the 1950's. It was routine in my part of the world for "health" reasons. None us turned out "damaged/abusive to women" etc etc We just got on with life in the real world!

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:51 AM

How can I miss what I don't remember having? I'm just glad they stopped at the foreskin.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 04:03 AM

'Failure to protect' a child from injury is why so many mothers are blamed for their children's misery in adult life. This holds true whether or not the mother is even aware that the child has been assaulted. 'Failure to protect' might also be the reason for many men's hostility to women in general.

If a mother allows her son to be sexually assaulted, wouldn't it follow that the son would feel anger toward his mother and generalize that feeling to all women?

Aside from the fact that it is not a medical necessity, I think that there are many psychological and emotional considerations. In fact, I think it should be considered a crime. I don't think too many men ever gave their consent to be circumsised.

Subject: RE: BS: Circumcision: pros and cons
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 03:59 AM

Speaking as one who had to be circumcised in my early fifties due to thinning of the skin and being thus prone to infection...I wish I had had it done when much younger. That way the scars would have been gone years ago and I would not have had the problem.
Best wishes, Mike.