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BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated
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Subject: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,mg Date: 10 Nov 05 - 07:49 PM This is the unmoderated thread. I hope that the moderators can move any hurtful messages into this thread. Sorry, but it has proved necessary to do this in the past. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 10 Nov 05 - 07:57 PM Is this a pre emptive strike? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Ebbie Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:09 PM I don't understand? If I do grasp it, you are saying you'd like this thread to be a celebration of the lives and energies that go and have gone into our national defense, but are you saying that you want hurtful messages to be included? As I said, I don't understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Ebbie Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:14 PM oh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:14 PM Ebbie, Whenever threads like this are started, as a celebration of someone or something, some of the people here insist on making the hurtful comments. Rather than try to silence them, this thread is to give them a place to make those comments, and leave the moderated thread for those of us wishing to look at the positive aspects. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans' (Armistice) Day - moderated From: GUEST Date: 11 Nov 05 - 06:43 PM And in reality all wars are started by old men and it's the young men that die in them. All how many wars throughout the world are started over God and faith ? And this is what we are asked to respect and admire ? I know when I see so called men of God standing on television speaking as if he was God himself, I turn them off. Anyone how looks at memorials of young lives lost because of faith in a church must ask who sent them to die ? I know many will say but the two world wars was to fight an evil man, yes he was an evil man, almost as evil as those killing and putting honest Palestinians off their own lands and it's accepted. [Message transferred.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Greg F. Date: 12 Nov 05 - 05:55 PM Ah, yes- lets all look at the positive aspects of war. Say whut? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 12 Nov 05 - 06:14 PM happy belated Vets Day to veterans everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Ebbie Date: 12 Nov 05 - 07:29 PM Thanks, bb. When I said "oh", I had belatedly discovered the first thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: The Walrus Date: 12 Nov 05 - 07:36 PM I've just watched the RBL Festival of Rememberance. Is it me, or has the standard gone down over the last few years? As for the performance of "For the Fallen"...we will remember them, but I for one will try my hardest to forget that appalling musical rendition of the poem. W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: The Walrus Date: 12 Nov 05 - 07:37 PM I'm sorry, but this seemed to right thread to air my (probably minority) view W |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,1st Cavalry, 1967 Date: 13 Nov 05 - 10:08 AM I have eaten your bread and salt I have drunk your water and wine The deaths ye died I have watched beside And the lives ye led were mine --Kipling Welcome home, guys |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,David Hannam Date: 13 Nov 05 - 10:11 AM For god's sake, can't political points be scored on another thread. Enough is enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Paco Rabanne Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:35 AM We thought the Fetival of Rememberance was great, well covered by the lovely BBC as usual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Peace Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:39 AM "For god's sake, can't political points be scored on another thread. Enough is enough." This thread was started by Mary on purpose. Please note that it is the unmoderated thread. The moderated thread was for more solemn remembrances. This thread was for those who just HAD to get something off their chests, so indeed it's serving its purpose. FYI. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,David Hannam Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:50 AM Wow. What are people going to do? Critisize veterans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:52 AM Wow. Everytime you try and sound sincere, I have an over whelming desire to empty the contents of my stomach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Peace Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:54 AM In past years, Mary has started threads for the purpose of remembering November 11 nad all it entails. She'd wanted to have a thread in which people could leave a bit of their hearts and maybe a few of their tears. I understand that one year some pretty nasty stuff got said. So, now she starts two threads: one moderated and the other (this one) unmoderated. "Wow. What are people going to do? Critisize veterans?" In a word, David, yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,David Hannam Date: 14 Nov 05 - 04:57 AM Thanks for being so honest mind Peace. But in a word, what do i think of that? Sick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Peace Date: 14 Nov 05 - 05:05 AM I personally agree, but I also understand why. Some people feel that without soldiers there would have been no war. Of course, they're correct. BUT, the folks who went had little choice, really. My grandfather was gassed twice. My dad was in France, and my step-dad was in Italy. All three lived, but they carried the scars, both mental and/or physical, for the remainder of their lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 05 - 05:46 AM I agree with peace. But while I can have respect for those who fought in the last two world wars, I have none for those in Iraq and found their contribution to the ceremonies sick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Pied Piper Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:48 AM Fuck W*r PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Paul Burke Date: 14 Nov 05 - 07:29 AM For me, this year's Remembrance was tainted by the revelation that the British ran interrogation camps, for up to three years after the end of WWII, where captured Germans suspected of complicity in Nazi atrocities were tortured. Furthermore, having revealed this, the government are still suppressing full publication of the details- the information released so far is only partial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 14 Nov 05 - 07:42 AM They started it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:41 AM Fuck W*r PP fuck remembrance day |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 05 - 11:12 AM Just be happy that you are not speaking German, or are dead in a gas oven. Remember the reason you still exist is thanks to the veterans who had the courage to fight for freedoms enjoyed here today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 14 Nov 05 - 12:53 PM They must be spinning in their unmarked graves at the rabble we now call soldiers. Too busy photographing their 'prisoners' in various states of indecency to use their miniscule brains and wonder what they are doing there. The armed forces were always the last alternative for the would be thug. No change there then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 14 Nov 05 - 06:50 PM On September 8th 1972 I along with about 200 other 16-18 year olds joined the Royal Navy as engineering apprentices in the Autumn entry. We were just young lads who wanted to get a trade, who thought the idea of traveling the world was a bloody good idea and we could have a laugh too. No politics were involved, the Navy had not seen true action for many years. No overt major conflicts threatened us. We swore allegiance to the Crown not to the Government. We studied in the classroom, we spent time in the workshops learning how to cut, mill, turn and generally bash metal. We learnt how to be sailors as well as engineers. Spending three years together in the messdecks of the training establishments we learnt each other ways, likes and dislikes. You got to do a lot of sport and through that and living together strong friendships were established. We were split into classes of 10-12 'tiffy's' to study, we helped each other through exams and at the end of the apprenticeship we received our drafts to different ships and submarines to carry on our careers. Of the 11, in my class 9 of us were down for submarines, the rest were left to general service. The same applied to other classes. You kept in touch and sometimes met up again in the various naval dockyards in the UK or overseas, we drank, got drunk and continued on our ways. The Falklands came out of nowhere. At first, on my boat we thought we had orders to go north again to check what the Soviets were doing. It was not the case. Many thought that it would not come to an exchange of fire. We would be recalled whilst on passage, 'Who the hell wants to fight over a few islands?' was many peoples thoughts. But we had orders, we proceded. The captains of the various ships and officers commanding the groups of marines, para's, guards all did their job in getting the ships and men ready. Unlike the Navy the marines and army had seen hot action before around the world. The majority of the navy's officers, senior rates and lower deck had not. No one had attacked an RN ship or submarine in the then length of our various careers. There were no losses of submarines in that little war, but our mates on the surface took a pasting. The shock of seeing names of friends, mates and aquaintences, then in their mid early to mid 20's, on the casualty lists was a real shock. Even now 23 years on I can still remember their faces. That is why Remembrance Sunday has meaning for me. None of us ever thought that we'd see our mates names on those lists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: mg Date: 14 Nov 05 - 11:13 PM what is also bad is not knowing their names...there were so many coming and going so fast...mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 Nov 05 - 12:31 AM After what happened last night, I think they very well might name my son Eric, in fact! A cloud of endlessly exploding gases in the middle of light-years of blacknes an armistice. WHY do you always turn that outside light? Politicians are big balls of gas, GWB with Eric on the other hand is a type of sentient politician which has been found to be extremely rare. There are the expectations of the person and with his election we all were generously gifted with an intelligent response from an intelligent Universe. It is certainly not like the situation of Buzz Aldrin the astronaut how experienced vertigo in the bathtub and slipped striking his head and place his out of the universal sphere of the senate. It is the wiggly threads of life that reveal Masters of the Far East who swim like a buttercup with a hyena and a gas leaking motorbike for parents. However, what we HAVE is human logic from from Blish to Pohl to Herbert to Donuel. The real question to be answered if rocks or clouds of gas or Eric's have brains. Those passing gas under sheets and pulling them over their bed-partners heads have rocks for brains. A tiny colony of soft corals does not pollute their environment, the stars among them are shot.
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,Shanghaiceltic Date: 15 Nov 05 - 03:31 AM It is the politicans who start the wars-the armed forces do their bidding and fight them. To tar all veterans and serving members of the armed forces with the same brush (re the assaults on civilians and POW's in Iraq) is not on. In all wars there are similar cases, but they are a minority, it is just that today with modern communications and IT these things come to light more quicker and investigations launched and courts martial assembled. Many in the armed forces joined up to get away from poverty at home, problems, lack of work etc. Others like myself joined up for the trade training which has stood me in good stead. Yes you do get thugs in the armed forces but they are a minority not a majority, just as you get hooligans at soccer matches, and muggers on the streets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:43 AM It sickens me when I see some of the comments about the men who gave all they had to give in defense of the freedom which we now enjoy. The vast majority of those who died in two world wars were not soldiers. They were men of all trades and professions, who were conscripted to serve. In light of this fact, it is extremely naive to suggest that, if there were no soldiers, there would be no wars. We should perhaps consider the fact that, without their sacrifice, we would not be able to conduct this kind of discussion at all, and thank God for them. I once read a short story by one of the famous sci-fi writers, in which he told of two planets with conflicting interests which were taken to the brink of extinction by a series of wars. They reached an agreement that in future a declaration of war would be signalled by the mass suicide of their respective rulers, after all other solutions had been exhausted. Suddenly diplomacy became the order of the day. If the politicians who decide to go to war had to hand over to their deputies, and go out to lead the troops, there would never be another armed conflict IMHO. So please don't blame the pawns for the decisions of the chess players. God bless and keep them all. We owe them a debt which can never be repaid. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST,David Hannam Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:53 AM Agree. Folk on here who make the twisted comments they have about remembrance day and our veterans are sick individuals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Paul Burke Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:54 AM The point is that, while feeling every sympathy for those young people who died or whose lives were ruined, war service is not, and never can be, uncontroversial. Just as an example, how would you feel about a memorial for the SS war dead? Japanese prison camp guards? Vietnamese vets? The Iraqis who died in the turkey shoot during the retreat at the end of the first Gulf war? The IRA or UDA? Pick your devil- there are SOME people who believed they were fighting for King , Church and Country who will be anathema to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Wolfgang Date: 15 Nov 05 - 08:13 AM Fuck w*r (Pied Piper) I just love the placement of the asterisk. If the politicians who decide to go to war had to hand over to their deputies, and go out to lead the troops, there would never be another armed conflict IMHO. (Don T.) That used to be the case in former centuries but it hadn't the expected effect. I'd just expect that the type of humans asking to be elected would be different. the British ran interrogation camps, for up to three years after the end of WWII, where captured Germans suspected of complicity in Nazi atrocities were tortured (Paul Burke) May be, I don't know. But I know that for the common German soldiers being captured by the British or the US army was considered a big win in a lottery (my father's still happy today that he 'smuggled' his small unit across the river Elbe against US orders to surrender to the Americans instead of the Russians; if he hadn't I wouldn't exist). The French were considerably worse but by far the worst of all were the Russians. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Nov 05 - 08:57 AM Paul, you do have a point, and there are certainly some in any army for whom sympathy is neither due, nor possible. I would, however, be a hypocrite if I didn't say that I regard the ordinary German, Japanese, or Iraqi soldiers as being victims of the politicians, rather than villains. They were misled by their leaders, trained to obey without question, and brainwashed to believe the enemy subhuman. In those circumstances, there were still many who did not commit war crimes, and truly believed they fought in a good cause. Even in the case of the SS, there were undoubtedly a few who avoided direct involvement in war crimes, tho' implicated by association. The real criminals are those who, by virtue of their power and authority, created the circumstances in which atrocities could be committed. For them I have no wish, other than an eternity burning in hell. For the pawns in the game, who were sons, fathers, or husbands, with families who mourn their loss, I think the time has come to temper ill feeling and wish them peace and rest. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: GUEST Date: 15 Nov 05 - 11:49 AM The moderated thread on this same subject is akin to those serving/served. One train of thought. One opinion and no room for discussion. Sad and ironic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: beardedbruce Date: 15 Nov 05 - 01:36 PM The moderated thread is for reflection and positive commnets. This one is for any comments and discussion. Sad and ironic that you can't tell the difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: mg Date: 15 Nov 05 - 03:50 PM I would visit their graves and leave flowers..those groups you mentioned. If you live on one side of a river you are on one side, and the other side of the river you are an enemy mostly just doing your best in a confusing and incomprehensible situation. mg |
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Subject: ADD: With God On Our Side (Bob Dylan) From: Charlie Baum Date: 15 Nov 05 - 04:03 PM I think it was when someone at my synagogue offered a prayer for the success of the armed forces on Veteran's Day that I found myself involuntarily singing the most appropriate hymn, a song by Robert Zimmerman (who changed his name after he was Bar Mitzvahed)-- WITH GOD ON OUR SIDE (Bob Dylan) Oh my name it is nothin' My age it means less The country I come from Is called the Midwest I's taught and brought up there The laws to abide And that land that I live in Has God on its side. Oh the history books tell it They tell it so well The cavalries charged The Indians fell The cavalries charged The Indians died Oh the country was young With God on its side. Oh the Spanish-American War had its day And the Civil War too Was soon laid away And the names of the heroes I's made to memorize With guns in their hands And God on their side. Oh the First World War, boys It closed out its fate The reason for fighting I never got straight But I learned to accept it Accept it with pride For you don't count the dead When God's on your side. When the Second World War Came to an end We forgave the Germans And we were friends Though they murdered six million In the ovens they fried The Germans now too Have God on their side. I've learned to hate Russians All through my whole life If another war starts It's them we must fight To hate them and fear them To run and to hide And accept it all bravely With God on my side. But now we got weapons Of the chemical dust If fire them we're forced to Then fire them we must One push of the button And a shot the world wide And you never ask questions When God's on your side. In a many dark hour I've been thinkin' about this That Jesus Christ Was betrayed by a kiss But I can't think for you You'll have to decide Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side. So now as I'm leavin' I'm weary as Hell The confusion I'm feelin' Ain't no tongue can tell The words fill my head And fall to the floor If God's on our side He'll stop the next war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Peace Date: 15 Nov 05 - 05:47 PM I was a soldier (reserve) once in my youth. What I do recall is that I would have killed anyone I was told to kill by anyone who had higher rank--which was everyone who wasn't a private. On his return from Vietnam, a Lt Col Sumner was asked by a civilian why he fought in Vietnam. His reply: "I thought you knew. You sent me." Soldiers do not like war. It's dangerous. People with guns are trying to kill you. I think it is disingenuous of civilians to ignore their responsibility in the process of beating drums to get kids to go kill each other. If wars involved sending your own kids first, there would be much less warfare and many fewer wars. IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 15 Nov 05 - 06:45 PM Ain't that the truth Peace, and true too that the ones who order the killing have enough clout to keep their own kin out of the draft. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Veterans (Armistice) Day - unmoderated From: Donuel Date: 16 Nov 05 - 06:26 PM This veterans day the President did not lay a wreath on the unknown soldier, that task went to Cheney. Instead George went to a military base and ranted about Democrats trying to revise history to make his war look bad. He went on with more political jabs than you can kill a soldier with. Journalists were a bit stunned since a President had never before so blatently delivered such a political speech for veterans day. As usual his sunk costs logic for continuing the war was his centerpiece, "The best way to honor the dead is to finish their mission". Here are my writings on veterans day Jim and Bob at the old age home... Remember the Maine Main what? Remember the Alamo? I thought you had it... Remember the Revolution Whose? You know Jim If we lived 700 years instead of 70 Wars would be few Bob: but Veterans day would be HUGE --------------------- Iraqi oil was there to take so George was in a hurry. With a spear from an olive branch he attacked them full of fury. Now the pipeline is his but the plumbing is shot its full of explosive holes. The fortune is lost Despite the lives it has cost To achieve his desired goals. What can we show for a billion a week Money for CEO's. Just think what we could have built with 1 and 15 zeros. A flood of blood for a lake of oil is a trade that's made in hell. The modern day El Dorado is just an oil well. Troops can't guard all 12,000 miles for the oil to flow. You may not think much about it unless it's your time to go. Think what we could have built right here at home, where Conquistadors tortured natives in search of El Dorado. ................................................. Cheer leading the 6 o'clock news. Terminate, eliminate Murder slash and kill Dispatch, assassinate Drop a poison pill Liquidate eradicate Put them down and quell Settle a score Slaughter and gore Send them straight to hell. Decimate meet their fate Slay and take a life They shuffled off their mortal coil Far from pain and strife. Hit , slaughter Shot their sons and daughters Take em out Capizass Whack like all the others. Snuff, stuff, fatally rape Decapitate the head of state Lets all get really tough Deprive of life, take a ride Until they've had enough Up with ultimate sacrifice Opps they lost their life. Turn the gun on the crowd Teach'em for us all Strafe and bomb The human race With precision shock and awe. .............................. song Thank heaven for little guerres For little guerres get bigger every day Thank heaven for little guerres They blow up in the most delightful way etc kill every last one and burn their ideas you will find you're still not done. what you fear darkly descends from the womb of religion born again the son of immortal revenge. We never call wars a war anymore. They are operations. The careful, skillful, sterile removal of infected foreign matter. We shall call this one Operation Moment of truth. Bless the "Father" the "son" and the holy roast. Roses are red violets are too In War they're the color of blood gore and goo Good times , End times As events turn worse It's too late to learn If you're breathing the curse It may be our turn With sorrow to come Still the Dark Ages Were Golden for some To kill a child --------------------------------- The baby's thrilled to walk Her eyes surprised with earthly delight. I melt with pride at her first free flight. On TV Dick Cheney chokes "We'll lose more lives here than those overseas" I believe he speaks of disease. A briefing at work today would make an athiest pray I am but bare brittle bone "Hon, can you put her on the phone?" An age of conquistadors When tribes were murdered 9 out of 10 from disease That cold history, now makes me freeze In sane times the insane mom would drown a helpless child. "Sweetie you're fine" I pretend Could I watch her agony to the end? Behind lead eyes I keep secret If she's a victim And the crime is small pox Could I end her torture at all costs? Baby remember when you walked? Shhh it'll be fine. Here honey take this, you will sleep. I'll be next, I'll not have long to weep, COLLATERAL VERBAGE It used to be shell shocked Then it was mental breakdown Now it is the post traumatic syndrome game whites, red necks, Caucasians blacks, colored, African Americans ladies now feminists fiddle with hyphens in their name It used to be 'we' It used to be war named after conquerors or numbered like WW II Count the syllables in our war today, it won't be a few. It used to be slain then it was casualties now it is collateral damage It used to be A-Bomb Now here's the exception its a device, how nice, that we can manage Stay in line You're OK if you are a REAL American Now when asked to swallow propaganda you are to be "responsible and true" In simpler times there were phrases that said it all Now we need a verbal * that will replace ALL the acceptable gender neutral non threatening politically correct phrases. * your small pox, * your crusade, * your slogans, * you. if there is a gun you try to ignore in act 2, it will go off in act 4 .............. We watched the Bond films multi billionaires took over the world but there were errors Somehow Bond lives on The bomb countdown ends 007 Its life he defends Have 'THEY' succeeded? Has Bond in real life failed? We all watched the films I think we're all nailed WAR IN THE ABSTRACTS -------------------------------- American Civil War It's about the Union and later the slaves WW II Nationalism gone beserk Another religious crusade Korean War Come out with your hands up Go back with your hands up Viet Nam Ten Hut Reverse...Charge Balkan War An imposed time out on another religious crusade Gulf War To contain a dictator Go back to Go we'll collect your $200 America's New Improved War Against terrorism...for Freedom Another oiligious crusade |
