BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, for you Bushites please see the "Bush and tortutr" thread and explain why the things that Bush has authorized and are being performed on people, isn't torture...

Or is that too much to ask a brownshirt???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM

Facts are never a friend to despots.

So some people think people like Cheney are ass holes for profiting at the death and catastrophic loss of others. Well bee hoo to you too.
Cheney thinks the rest of us are ass holes for not taking advantage of immensely profitable situations like Halliburton's unbid contracts for Iraq and Katrina. Never mind that those kind of conflicts of interest are illegal, in times of WAR all is permissable - or so we are told.

But all the name calling aside, when you send people to kill and be killed over a contrived well spun lie that intelligence reports told you was a lie...that is beyond despicable and worse than any of the reasons they decapitated Louis the 16th .

Rogue states, killing innocent people, false elections, cruel and inhuman treatment...just who are we talking about anymore US or THEM?

Six years ago I warned that the cost of war is in part, to become more like your enemy.
Welcome to the brave new world.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:32 PM

Well, Crowbar, I know that you don't like "KatrinaGate" becuase you and you Bush folks don't like it when yer man gets caught but I presented a purdy straight forward argument on why I felt Bush was rsponsible for the poor showing by the Feds...

There's actaul researched facts that you haven't even heard much in the media yet like about the National Reponse Plan... Maybe you could tell the folks what you know about the NRP, C-Bar...

Then there's actaul testomny before Congress by Michael Brown... What, did I make that up???

Yeah, it's been three weeks (at least) since I, after researching an issue that one of your Bush suporting buds here suggested would be an issue that he would be willing to debate and all I have gotten is a lot os "Bobert is full of sh*t's"... Not one intellegent rebuttal!!!!

Not one, C-Bar...

Hey, you are the one who is so willing to jump on the "Bobert is full of sh*t" bandwagon but you haven't made one intellegent rebuttal to my argument either???

Hmmmmmmmm?

Just like yer fearless chickenhawk leader you think you can jst ***proclain*** your way past yer fearless leaders screw-ups...

Back in the 30's, they called 'um "Brownshirts", pal...

But guess what???

Hey, every time I see "Bobert is full of sh*t" I know that I have brought one nugget of truth into the arena... Hey, if I were a Bushite, I'd prolly do the same thing...

That, pwerhaps, is why I am not a Bushite...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:11 PM

Waaaaaaa! Well said, Crowbar. Reminds me of song not found in the digital tradition...

Indiscipline... by King Crimson

I do remember one thing.
It took hours and hours but..
By the time I was done with it,
I was so involved, I didn't know what to think.
I carried it around with me for days and days..
Playing little games
Like not looking at it for a whole day
And then.. looking at it.
To see if I still liked it.
I did.

I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat..
The more I look at it,
The more I like it.
I do think it's good.
The fact is..
No matter how closely I study it,
No matter how I take it apart,
No matter how I break it down,
It remains consistant.
I wish you were here to see it.

I like it.

;^)ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:36 AM

Bobert:
jus' fact.. hard research

Show me one example of a fact you have presented or one bit of research.

All you do is repaeat some propaganda that you have heard somewhere or have read in your glorious (left biased) Washington Post and (on the skids) NY Times, in your own words.

How is anyone to know if you are giving it to us verbatim or if you are giving us your sarcastic laden, biased version? That is the reason for cut and pastes.

I want to see some proof that no one reads them. Otherwise your claim is false and not based on any facts.

While Mudcat is officially a forum, it is functionally the same as a blog where people post and others respond.

The rules here are no lengthy cut and paste. I have not seen the definition of lengthy yet. I have not seen any comnparison if cut and paste with cowardice.

The cowards here are afraid of facts. They don't want to be confronted with facts proving they are wrong and out of step with the rest of the world.

They want to feel safe here in their fact free haven where they can all huddle together like scared rabbits, whine an whimper to each other about the big meanies that are picking on them and making thier life so hard. They want reinforcement from other crybabies like themselves.

Boo fucking Hoo

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:32 PM

YEAH, and for the next two days we'll have it four times a day on TV. It'll be chewed over by "experts, mixed , mashed, disected and put back together, upside down and inside out till we're sick of hearing it.

You know what? It'll make no difference! What will happen will happen, because the people we allow to govern for us don't give a s**t what we think, on either side of the Atlantic.

So give us a break, Crowbar, there's a good fellow.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:02 AM

Thanks for the post Crowbar... did you really need to paste it 5 times?

...uhhhh... if you haven't noticed Y'all, we don't like long cut-n-pastes. Yep... there's even rules about 'em... round here...

I read it... and I heard it on network news, and I watched it on CBS. Tomorrow I'll read about it online and in several papers.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:39 PM

Well, well, well...

Nop crap 'n post there, C-bar...

That's progress...

But let me tell ya', pal, even the Bushites don't read long crap-'n posts here in Mudville so if yer gonna do 'um, you can take it to the bank that *NOT ONE* person will read it!!!

Guarenteed!!!

So all you are dojg it diluding what ever it is that you want to say... The reason that foolks like you jump on me is because what I say is waht ***********************I************************* say...

Ain't 'bout siome dumbass blogger who may or may not know a danged trhing about what they are talking about...

What I say, is from a lot of reading from meainstream sources... I don't do blogs... You all want to get yer panties all twisted, fine... What yiou get from me is stuff that anyone, if they wou7ld take the time, could get from just reading the newspapers...

No blogs, just fact...

NO crap 'n post either, jus' fact..


Yeah, go ahead an' attcak me all you want, C-Bar... We know who it is that can't hang when it comes to doing the hard research... We know who it is that hides behind crap 'n paste blog stuff...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 11:22 PM

It's better than your whining and sucking snot like a 2 day old calf.

It gives people something better to read than your Bobertisims, sarcasm and punditry that is totally devoid of facts.

Why don't you go on a bad will tour for the US? Are you too chicken?

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:44 PM

Yo, Crowbar, so what do you think????

14 page cut'n posts is about as cowardly as anmything I can think of... You got any thing to say??"

Didn't think so..'

Jus' more well financed crap 'n post PR pablum....

You are a coward...

Bobert

(5 years here without one danged cut'n paste cowardly post...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 12 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM

Early voting under way ahead of Iraq elections
The Associated Press, Reuters

MONDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2005
BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.


BAGHDAD Hospital patients, soldiers and prisoners began voting Monday in Iraq's parliamentary elections, three days ahead of the general population, while insurgents said the balloting violated God's law, and new violence killed at least 12 people.

Five Islamic militant groups, including Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, denounced the elections set for Thursday as a "satanic project," vowing to continue their war to establish an Islamic regime, according to an Internet statement. But they made no threats to disrupt the process, unlike earlier balloting, when militants warned they would attack polling stations.

President George W. Bush, who gave a speech and held a question-and-answer session in Philadelphia on Monday, predicted that insurgent violence would not end with the elections.

He said that much work remained to make Iraq's fledging democracy inclusive to all. The elections, he said, "won't be perfect," adding: "Iraqis still have more difficult work ahead, and our coalition and a new Iraqi government will face many challenges."

Asked about the number of Iraqi casualties from the war and the insurgency, Bush said: "I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis."

To curb election day bloodshed, Iraq will close its borders, extend a nighttime curfew and restrict domestic travel starting Tuesday. Thousands of Iraqi forces will guard voting stations, with U.S. and other coalition troops ready in case of a major attack.

U.S. officials hope the new Parliament can help quell the Sunni-dominated insurgency so that American forces can begin heading home. The 275-member assembly will be the first full-term Parliament, serving for four years, since Saddam Hussein's ouster in 2003.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said a timetable for a withdrawal would depend on the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security.

"We want the multinational forces to leave, but we don't want security to disappear as well," Jaafari said. "When the Iraqi hands are in complete control of the security situation in Iraq, then we will tell the multinational forces, 'Thank you. Please leave the Iraqi lands."'

At the largest election rally of the campaign, thousands of Shiite Muslims filled the streets of Baghdad's sprawling slum of Sadr City, chanting Islamic and anti-insurgent slogans.

"Yes, yes to Islam! Yes, yes to Iraq! Yes, yes to the religious leadership!" the group yelled as they waved Iraqi flags and pictures of the sect's top leaders amid tight security.

The Internet statement could not be independently verified, but if authentic, it was a rare instance of several militant groups joining to announce their stance.

"The conspiracy in Iraq against the mujahedeen, the so-called political process," the statement said, was nothing more than "a satanic project, just like those before it."

"To engage in the so-called political process and in the renegade election is religiously prohibited and contradicts the legitimate policy approved by God almighty for the Muslims in our constitution, which is the holy Koran."

An unsigned statement believed to be from an insurgent group and distributed in the Sunni stronghold of Azamiya said that Sunnis could use the elections to make some political gains but that "fighting will continue with the infidels and their followers."

In Egypt, the secretary general of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, urged all Iraqis to vote and "participate in the building of a new Iraq," adding that all fighting and police crackdowns should be suspended for the voting.

The voting early Monday saw the first of 1,500 patients cast ballots at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad, with officials bringing a box around to the bedridden in various wards, said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center. Police and soldiers also voted early, displaying their ink-stained fingers.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can cast ballots at polling centers in 15 countries.

Suspected insurgents held in detention but not convicted are eligible to vote, officials said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 12:28 AM

Good news coming from Iraq
Published Wednesday, December 7, 2005
Comments (0) Add Comment

To The Packet:

"I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive killing tyranny of Sadaam to modern self-governing, self-securing nationhood -- unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn."

Are these excerpts from President Bush's recent speech at the Naval Academy or quotes from Dick Cheney? No, they are the words of a leading Democratic senator, Joe Lieberman, in an op-ed piece in the Nov. 29 Wall Street Journal.

We read daily negative articles on the administration's Iraq policies demands for immediate (six months) withdrawal of our troops from Congressman John Murtha, and a litany of reports on roadside bombs, kidnappings and troop casualties. Surely such bipartisan support of our government's Iraq policy would be widely reported. I read The Island Packet the next two days and the New York Times the following day and found no report on Lieberman's comments.

If the senator had published a critical report on his return would we have seen it widely reported? Could you reprint his comments so your readers can see a nonpartisan critique of our Middle Eastern policy? It would help to report that Americans from both political parties can pull together for the common good of our country and the people of the Middle East.

John Sweeney

Hilton Head Island

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 12:36 AM

WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 (UPI) -- Ramadi citizens captured and turned in a man believed to be one of the top operatives in Iraq for Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

The man, Amir Khalaf Fanus, was turned over to U.S. and Iraq forces on Dec. 9 in Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province and the scene of intense fighting.

Fanus is number three on the 2nd Brigade Combat Team's most wanted list. According to the military, he is the highest ranking "al-Qaida in Iraq" member turned over to U.S. forces by local citizens so far.

U.S. military officials say Fanus' capture is "another indication that the local citizens tire of the terrorists presence within their community."

There are increasing signs of fighting in Ramadi between Iraqi citizens and Zarqawi's fighters. The identity of the Iraqis is unclear; they are likely Sunni insurgents who sometimes fight alongside Zarqawi's men when they are facinig U.S. forces but battle with them at other times. During the six months Fallujah was in insurgent hands in 2004, there was a great deal of violence between the foreign jihadists and the Sunni insurgents.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Yusafah
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:59 PM

OPERATION STEEL CURTAIN CONTINUES IN UBAYDI

CAMP BLUE DIAMOND, AR RAMADI, Iraq Iraqi Army soldiers and Marines, Soldiers and Sailors with Regimental Combat Team 2 continue Operation Al Hajip Elfulathi (Steel Curtain) in the town of Ubaydi Nov. 15.

It is suspected that many of the terrorists who are now fighting in Ubaydi fled from Husaybah and Karabilah, the first two cities that were secured by Iraqi and Coalition Forces at the beginning of the operation. While the fighting has been sporadic, it has been characterized by commanders on the ground as some of the heaviest since Operation Steel Curtain began Nov. 5. Intelligence reports indicate that the strong resistance to the Iraqi and Coalition push into the city is due in large part to the fact that terrorists believe they are trapped and have nowhere else to go.

An additional 30 terrorists have been killed since last night, for an overall total of approximately 80 killed since entering the city yesterday morning. Most of those terrorists were targeted by coalition air strikes, although some were killed in direct small-arms fire engagements with Iraqi and Coalition Forces on the ground.

Iraqi and Coalition Forces continue to clear the city house-by-house, occasionally encountering buildings that are rigged with explosives and triggered to detonate upon entering the building. Numerous weapons caches have also been seized, to include several that contained suicide vests and bomb making material. Overall, there have been 36 weapons caches found and destroyed during Operation Steel Curtain.

Iraqi and Coalition Forces have also discovered numerous improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and mines during the operation, the vast majority of which were destroyed by Coalition Forces before they could inflict any damage. The precise locations of many IEDs were revealed by detained terrorists. There have been a total of 107 IEDs and mines discovered during the course of Operation Steel Curtain.

Several detainees were captured trying to sneak out of the area by crawling among a flock of sheep. Overall, there have been approximately 150 terrorists detained since Operation Steel Curtain began 10 days ago.

Ubaydi is located on the banks of the Euphrates River, 20 km from the Syrian border and separated into two main areas, Old and New Ubaydi. Old Ubaydi has been cleared and now the Iraqi Army and Coalition forces are focusing on clearing the al-Qaeda in Iraq stronghold of New Ubaydi.

The intent of Operation Steel Curtain is to restore Iraqi sovereign control along the Iraq-Syria border and destroy the al Qaeda in Iraq terrorists operating throughout the Al Qa im region. The towns of Husaybah and Karabilah were cleared earlier in the operation which began Nov. 5 and a permanent security presence has been established. Approximately 1,000 Iraqi Army soldiers and 2,500 Marines, Soldiers and Sailors are participating in Operation Steel Curtain.

This offensive is part of the larger Operation Sayaid (Hunter), designed to prevent al Qaeda in Iraq from operating in the Euphrates River Valley and throughout Al Anbar and to establish a permanent Iraqi Army presence in the Al Qa im region.

ARREST WARRANTS ISSUED FOR TWO LEADERS IN THE INSURGENCY; ONE HAS TIES TO AL ZARQAWI

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The Iraqi Central Investigating Court in Baghdad issued arrest warrants for two men suspected of leading and facilitating the insurgency against Coalition and Iraqi Forces and who are responsible for many Iraqi deaths.

Issued on October 17, 2005, and only recently made public, was an arrest warrant for Muhammed Hilah Hammad al Ubaydi, also known as Abu Ayman. Abu Ayman, a Saddamist, was a former aide to the Chief of Staff of Intelligence in the Baathist Regime and has been financing and leading insurgency operations since Saddam Hussein s fall in 2003. The arrest warrant states that Abu Ayman is wanted for violation of Iraqi Penal Code 194, which addresses terrorist activities.

Coalition and Iraqi security forces have long suspected Abu Ayman of leading an extensive network of terrorists, whose aim is to disrupt democracy in Iraq. He is suspected of leading and facilitating kidnappings, improvised explosive device attacks and attacks on convoys that resulted in deaths, assassination attempts on government officials, non-Iraqi citizens, and destruction of property. Abu Ayman has focused his attacks against Iraqi forces in Baghdad, Salman Pak, and Mahmudiyah. Abu Ayman leads the Secret Islamic Army in northern Babil Province, an organization with ties to Abu Musab al Zarqawi and al Qaeda.

Also issued on October 17, 2005 was an arrest warrant for Jamal Wahab al-Dhari al ZawbaI, also known as Abu Asim. A former Special Republican Guard officer under Saddam Hussein, authorities believe Abu Asim has been active within the insurgency since the fall of the former regime.

The arrest warrant states that Asim, like Abu Ayman, is wanted for violation of Iraqi Penal Code 194.

Coalition and Iraqi security forces believe that Abu Asim is responsible for coordinating, facilitating, funding, and training different terrorist groups sharing the common goal of destroying the progress of a free and democratic Iraq. Abu Asim s focus remains in Baghdad although Coalition and Iraqi Intelligence officials believe Abu Asim is also responsible for terrorist attacks in Abu Ghraib.

COALITION FORCES CAPTURE HIGH LEVEL BA'ATH PARTY LEADER

BAGHDAD, Iraq   Coalition Forces captured Hamid Sharki Shadid, the leader of the New Ba ath Party in Diyala Province, during a patrol November 9th.

Coalition members apprehended Shadid along with physical evidence at his home.

Shadid is a former member of the Ba ath Party in Diyala Province and is suspected of being responsible for all anti-Iraqi forces Ba ath Party activities in that area.

Shadid s capture is a major achievement for Coalition Forces as they believe he can provide crucial information on the whereabouts of former Staff General Jamal Karki, a suspected Ba athist insurgent, and Abd-al-Baqi al-Sa adun, who has been a fugitive since the fall of the Saddam Hussein regime in 2003.

As the former Ba ath Party Regional Chairman of Diyala Province and Regional Chairman of Southern Iraq, al Sa adun is wanted for crimes against humanity committed during the 1999 Shi ite uprising. Al-Sa adun has remained a key leader within the Iraqi insurgency, recruiting and financing foreign terrorists in eastern and central Iraq. Al-Sa adun also actively coordinated, financed and directed attacks against Iraqi police and civilians in Nasiriyah, Basrah and Diyala provinces.

It is believed that Sa adun finances insurgent activities with money stolen from the people of Iraq during the Saddam regime and that Shadid may be an accomplice.

Coalition Forces will continue their pursuit of al-Sa adun and Karki and view Shadid s capture as a step closer to their apprehension. Up to one million U.S. Dollars is being offered to capture or kill Abd-al-Baqi al-Sa adun.

TERRORISTS CAUGHT WITH IED MATERIALS

TIKRIT, Iraq   Two men were taken into custody by U.S. troops near Hawija Nov. 12 after they were caught red-handed with IED-making material and $1,000 in U.S. currency.

Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division s 1st Brigade Combat Team were patrolling in Hawija when they came under small arms fire. The Soldiers determined that the shots were coming from a nearby cement factory and moved in to investigate.

They found the first suspect sitting in a vehicle outside the plant with a television remote control, a common detonator for IEDs, electrical wire and wire strippers.

A second man was discovered in a factory office with 50 feet of wire. A safe in the office contained a cordless phone and charger that was in the process of being turned into an IED trigger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 09:20 AM

Yes, the whole garment works for me TTR.

You are certainly right in saying that there are rich liberals, but, at this time they don't have the power to change anything. The Republican Party do have that power, but certainly they don't have the inclination.

I have lived all my life in a country where we have a Welfare State. We DO value our poorer citizens, and every worker gives up an amount proportional to his income to finance it. It isn't perfect, but it does mean that we don't have to ask a heart attack victim for his credit card, or bank details before attempting resuscitation.

It is a minor sacrifice, generally acceptable to all, and is the reason why we don't have the proliferation of insurance providers, so happy to accept the premium, and so eager to find reasons to welsh on the deal if a client has to claim.

Considering that Britain exited WW2 almost bankrupt, and the US exited as one of the richest countries in recorded history, one might have expected a reversal of that situation, but the attitude that is perceived by outsiders is one of "My family and I are all right, and the rest can go hang".

I have met many Americans in my rather long lifetime, and I can honestly state that I have never met one who was not generous to a fault. I lived near a USAF base for a number of years, and socialised regularly with US servicemen, and it was almost impossible to spend any money when in their company.

I therefore cannot believe that the majority of them do not care about the poorer members of their own community. This leads me to conclude that the lack of care is due to the political leaders fear of losing votes, although I see little real justification for any such fear.

Perhaps they need to consider the number of votes they might WIN by such policies. I rather think that they would gain, on balance.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:40 AM

However...

The rich-poor scenario just doesn't pan out. We have plenty of rich liberals and not so rich neo-cons... The class analysis doesn't really cut it in US politics anymore... It could even be said that the opposite is true, but I've no stats...

We don't measure worth in capital holdings... we exert economic influence... and are known to be very persuasive. Politics transcends this to some degree, but never will it be it's master completely. The same holds true of religion and the spiritual incentives that are always welling up within us...

Counting on the rich to take care of the poor is kind of like giving a blind man some matches and telling him to light all the candles in a room he's never been in before. His skills don't really match the job he's being asked to do... no matter how good his intentions are.

I do believe that the true sources of wealth in this country are our courage, hard work, and inventiveness... but what we do right with that wealth necessitates spiritual insight and compassionate vision.

We're not exactly world leaders in the spiritual insight and compassionate vision department now are we? These are much more important than we have been led to believe.

We need more than a shread of decency... like... how about the whole garment?
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:46 PM

Beautiful Post, Don T.

Thanks!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:05 PM

Thank you Don. I try hard to understand why humans act the way they do, and to make allowance for the fact that they often get it wrong, but it's sometimes impossible to find the good in certain individuals. Maybe it just isn't there.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:01 PM

The rich won't ever give an inch until the masses make the demands.... So if anyone is waiting for that to happen, get over it...

Like I said, it will take folks who can't be squeezed any more, like the retiree and the low wage earners primarially in the South(rednecks) in America to find they are both getting screwed... When that happens then the Green Party, or even perhaps a dem party with bones, will milk that coilition....

But make no bones about it... In the coming eyars these two groups will be in line fir the biggest screwin's...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:34 PM

Don T., you have an excellent grasp of the problem. All aspects.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:23 PM

I think, speaking as an outsider, that the major difficulties facing the USA result from two serious flaws in the American psyche.

1. You measure the worth of a man by the number of zeros on his annual paycheck. To be thought of as having value in the community, he must clear $100,000 or more each year, which automatically removes your need to respect the poor, and therefore your responsibility to make provision for them.

2. You see your countrymen as "winners", or "losers", rather than participants in a shared endeavour.

Also you use the words "republican" and "liberal" as terms of abuse for those who do not share your political views, instead of descriptors of those political views

Divisive assessments such as these make it extremely difficult to get together in any meaningful action to improve matters.

Since there is a tendency for the majority of liberal voters (as opposed to liberal politicians) to be on the poorer end of the spectrum, these are the people most likely to be dissatisfied with the current administration, and to express that feeling.

Since nobody in government is disposed to listen to them, or show any concern for their rights, they feel disenfranchised, which is hardly surprising in the circumstances.

Your country is desperately in need of a change in attitude to move back toward the ideals expressed in your constitution, and the Bill of Rights, and the main stumbling block to that is the Republican Party.

Until the rich in your community recognise their responsibility to look after the poor, to see that they have proper education, proper healthcare, decent housing, and all the other needs that are so sadly neglected right now, America will fall far short of what the founding fathers intended to produce when they threw out the colonial rulers over two hundred years ago.

Look back over the last two centuries, and count up the number of men who have had a profoundly good effect on human development, and you will find that many of them were poor men, who by discovery, or invention, benefitted every one of us living today. Many great inventions and discoveries, in medicine, in industry, and in education were made by men who struggled to survive, and never gained financial reward for their work.

IMHO, any one of them was of much greater value to the human race than any politician, however rich.

The worth of a man, to me, is measured by what he puts into his community, not by what he takes out.

Perhaps when GWB understands that (if he ever does), he might just become a valuable human being, though I'm not holding my breath.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:36 PM

Your realism about the contemporary state of liberal philosophy is endearing and disarming, Don. Thanks for clarifying. It's almost impossible to imagine a Democratic Party Platform these days that doesn't evaluate itself entirely by reaction. Where are the unshakeable 'eternal' motivations that guided our country to "freedom" at the time of the Declaration of Independence? Perhaps the next word to define here is 'freedom' itself!

The left has fractured... splitting into factions upon factions upon factions... which makes it ultimately vulnerable to "anyone" with a short term concern... and rendering it virtually void of long term constancy. And yet, it persists in our imagination... like some kind of dream... where people get along and actually speak reasoned ideas with voices that are confident of being heard and considered...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:17 PM

Can't agree with you more, Don...

Barry Goldwater amd Richard Nixon would not believe their eyes if they could see the amount of deficit spending that their present day, so called conservatives, are involved with... And for what?

But, really, it doesn't matter a tinker's dam about liberals and conservatives right now and who's who...

What is going to happen over the next several years is a major collision that both liberals and conseervative know all about but neither is willing to be the first to really take on in any kind of realistc manner...

That collision will come into full focus when out country finds it can no longer compete because of the ill-thought-out carpe diem thinking that when into our planning for the retiremnt of the Baby Boomers...

Tghis isn't just about Social Security but alaso about America's "industry"... Now, I'm probably going to sound a little like a Republican here but just bare with me... Back in the 50's and 60' and even into the 70's America's industries were doing good... NBo, make that very good and so during these years nice retirement packages were put in place to reward the workers for their labor in creating a lot of wealth for America...

We are now seeing the demise of obne industry after another and, well, it's easy to say that GM is getting what it deserves and in some ways, yeah, GM has made some bad product decisions but that a topic for another thread... Ford has made better product decisions and it is hurting as well...

(But, Bobert, Toyata is doing great and they are American designed and built...)

Glad you brouight that up... Yes, Toyota is doing well because they do not have the pension monkey on their back that they can use to make a better product...

(Holy cow, BObert, you aren't going to blame unions now, are you???)

Well, yes and no.... When GM was drowing in cash it was easier to make promises but now those notes have come due and, no, this isn't a union problem but an American problem.... And it's not just GM... It's lots of old Amercian companies...

Now here's the part where I think America is going to have to lay down the labels, roll up some sleeeves, and get to work... It will get very, very messy but sometimes things have to get very,very messy before wars end... And make no bones about it, America is very much at war with itself and the governemnt in a time of great need is asleep at the wheel, still playin' divide and conquer while grabbing as much cash as it can from whereever it can be extorted...

Fine... Maybe that's what is needed but, as I have predicted, this little out-of-control government will come to an end by necissity... That purdy much why all wars end... Now, the question that is difficult to answer is will it take Baby Boomers and rednecks from the South to form an alliance to bring down the monster or will the monster just one day wake up and look in the danged mittor and say, "Hey, we've messed this thing up purdy good. Wonder what ot will take to fix it???"

Yeah, the liberal v. conservative trhing is just a meaning diversion, much like gay marriage and flag burning...

Like Ross Perot used to say, "Hey we got a lot of plans, just no courage to try some things..."

Now before someone brings up Bush's Social Security plan, let me say this... He was correct in bringin' up Social Security... Where he screwed up was not allowing a discussion... That was more of the same liberal v. Conservative diversionary crao that he has done since 2000... We're not going to fix anything without a discussion..

That is why I get real pissed at some of the GUEST's here... The seem to be nuthin' but shills for the divide-and-conquerors...

I've tried to have discussionas about all kinds of issues here in Mudville but it ain't easy with the usual cast of gnats buzzin in ones face...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 05:21 PM

Perhaps we're talking past each other here, Thomas. I think when you and I speak of "liberals" or "progressives," we are not talking about the same things.

Much of the "liberalism" of the Sixties followed the superficial aspects of the classic position, but lacked a solid, consistent, philosophical base. I doubt that many of those out marching and chanting, although the cause (e.g. civil rights) might have been worthy, had ever heard of, much less read, John Locke.

What I mean when I use these words is the classic definitions. I do not regard Kerry, for example, as a liberal, and certainly not a progressive. At best, he's middle-of-the-road, if not somewhat to the Right. I'm quite sure he regards himself as liberal, as do a lot of other people, and that's part of the problem. The Democratic Party, the traditional liberal party, has lost its focus. In its eagerness to win elections, it has cherry-picked and adopted what it regards as the more popular policies of the party it's trying to defeat, thereby abandoning its traditional values. And it's those traditionally progressive values that offer the electorate a genuine alternative. Once again, the Truman quote.

Indeed, both major parties have lost their focus. The neo-conservatives are far from the conservatism of someone like, say, Barry Goldwater, who was the quintessential conservative a generation or so ago. And the kind of Republicans I grew up with (Eisenhower, for example) would hardly recognize the GOP as it is today. Currently, more and more Republicans are less and less happy about the position and direction of the party to which they belong.

What I was advocating in my 07 Dec 05 - 02:33 PM post was for true, philosphically based liberals and progressives, not just those with single issue agendas like abortion or the environment or opposition to the war, to get involved in the Democratic Party and do everything in their power to put it back into its traditional classic liberal / progressive position. I see this as being easier to do than joining or trying to form a "third party," which, in this country, never accomplishes much beyond weakening support for the major party closest to their own position. And for that matter, disgruntled Republicans would do well to do whatever they can to take back their own party.

The traditional, classic terminology has gone down the tubes. It's hard to have a rational discussion when the terminology we use is fuzzy and ill-defined. There is a good reason for philosophical debaters to insist that the terms being used must be clearly defined. Without a clear idea of what the words we use mean, we wind up using the same words to talk about two or more different things. It's even harder when adjectives are added that clearly imply a sneer.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:54 PM

Ah... the classic exposition of the patented 'glass jaw' liberal cop out... a veritable pouting retreat when faced with even the tiniest little smidgeon of the critisizm you project...

After 46 years of cottled liberal ephemerals... I just can't take it anymore. Oh sure... when Bobert is on one of his tirades... I understand. I mean... cool dude... I get his drift... but sorry Don... Bobert's a drama Queen. He's still hanging on to the perversion of folk music that Dylan popularized to go along along with the anti-establishment toke joke... But while some folks would like to believe that that 60's fervor fever is 'what it's all about'... I think it is missing the boat just as poignantly as the Neo-Cons... and is it's flip-side of the coin of social dysfunction.

I believe that "liberals" as a group have degenerated from the ideals of Gahndi and "Civil Disobedience" into a wishy-washy passion play of glorified decadence and immorality... and though it's sad to point out... The left is no stranger to corruption. All too often, they just call it "being cool".

Sorry Don... but I say "If our country is in trouble, our leaders are just the tip of the iceburg" ...and our lives as citizens are in need of spiritual enrichment and the more nutritious morality that comes with it. We are the mold that great men are made of... unless of course, we're actually just cowards and overstimulated consumers... competing with each other to see who's the best at remembering the brainstorms of Mainstream Media's marketing departments...

My take on it is this... that the 60's style of social disintegration was a sad mistake... It lacked clarity, rebuked God, and messed people up mightily. And until the 'liberal establishment' faces it's need for utter and complete spiritual renovation, everyone is going to suffer.

If 'The People' have no spiritual backbone... Their leaders will engage in superfluous activities... with little or no resistance.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:16 PM

Thomas, perhaps I am misreading you, but considering some of the ways you have characterized liberals and progressives in your posts indicates to me that you have swallowed the "liberals are evil" doctrine hook, line, and sinker and seem unwilling to consider that said liberals and progressives have a lot to say that is of value and should be considered, whether you eventually agree or disagree. Also, the remarks of other posters, such as ". . . those slimy liberal Dems," betrays to me a prejudice and closed-mindedness that precludes any kind of serious civil discussion.

I though that was what you were striving for in this thread.

If this is not what you were striving for, then I think I can spend my time more productively elsewhere.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:00 PM

Bobert is absolutely right about the probable government reaction to Jesus' presence on earth today. He would IMO be seen as a dangerous subversive by the very people who profess to follow his teachings.

Also, while I disagree with much of what TTR says, and believes, he damn sure has the right to say and believe what he does. At least he is willing to discuss the ISSUES, rather than personally attack the opposition.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:41 AM

Tryin' ta cheer me up with Dylan quotes and mob expose's and Willie Horton analogies this morn'in Boberto... made me think of this...

"Three guys, stranded on a desert island, find a magic lantern containing a genie, who grants them each one wish. The first guy wishes he was off the island and back home. The second guy wishes the same. The third guy says "I'm lonely. I wish my friends were back here."

Snap out of it ol'boy...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM

From a GUEST, that's purdy scarey, fiddler434... Most of GUEST-dom are on some kind of crusade to try to deminish my observations and theories...

As fir GUEST, Crowbar, I'd have to agree with you to some extent but I don't think its the issues that will hurt the Dems but the obscene manner in which the Repub can raise cash (think mob here with their rangers and pioneers and the bunding... like protection money) to purchase Willie Horton tyopa ads and run them 24/7... That is the scarey part of the equation... Ad-men are very, very powerful and what we have seen over the last several election cycles is the candidate witrh the most dough wins 9 out of ten contests...

Yeah, inspite of the Christain Right's blind backing if the Repubs, I believe that if Jesus Christ were to be found walking among us that the Repubs would consider him as threat, send a bunch of dough off to their PR folks and next thing ya' know Jesus Christ Himself would be Willie Horton-ized!!!

Bottom line, the Dems don't have the "rangers and pioneers" that can scare the corportaions into making the big donations so the Dems, unless they pull a rabbit out of their hat, are *toast*...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,fiddler434
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:33 AM

Bobert-------I love your posts!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:27 AM

At this point, everyone knows that America is stupid. I doubt if Howard will do any more harm than has already been done.

At least he won't be making the U.S. look wicked and evil like Bush has done.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 11:11 PM

Yeah Bush is a lame duck. He has nothing to loose because he is not worried about re election. Therefore he is not in a Clinton type popularity contest.

On the other hand those slimy liberal Dems will be up for re-election and they will say or do anything to get re elected, Including but not limited to doing everything in their power to make the administration look bad at the expense of America itself.

They have the perfect DNC looser/idiot to carry them to victory, Howard Yehhaaa Dean.

Go Howard, make America look stupid for your own benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:49 PM

Well, ttr, as you know we are a just sum total of all that we have experienced in life, be it 8 years of college, which prolly is hard it believe that I have, 'er just listenin' to folks, reading poetry 'er songs... Some times, as you being a poet know, it's just a few words that work real well....

"Candy's dandy but
Liquir's quicker..." (Odgen Nash)

But, no, I don't zero in on something like "I wanta hold yer hand" and attach to much to it but then again when Dylan sings "Don't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows", ahhhh, yeah, I think we can all relate to what he is telling us...

Same with Springsteen's line (from the song "Big Muddy", incidently) and he should know... Early in his carrer he got screwed over more times than any musican or artist should have to go thru so, yeah, his observation wasn't exactly made in a vacuum, my friend...

As fir the "Butcan the Dem", LOL... Yeah, I'm sure Sigmond is smilin' at that one...

And, no, I'm not stalkin' you... You have kinda stepped out into the kind of stuff that I find intersting and know a little about so as long as yer in the 'hood, I reckon you'll be hearin' more from me...

But always good to see ya, ttr...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

BTW... Do you really get your political insights from pop music stars? Yikes!

A little freudian slip there eh, Bobert... "Butcan the Dems..." Doin' your best are ya?;^)

So little to say, so much time... ...and so tiresome too.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:01 PM

Snap out of it Boberto...

BTW... are you stalking me, or are you just running around kinda confused like and hysterical? Get a grip, kiddo.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 06:45 PM

I see it differently from you, ttr... Like Bruce Sprinsteen sings, "Sooner or later it all comes down to money" and you have the upper 5% controlling 80% of the money so these folks can put lots of cash into one party or the other, or both... Given that over the last several elections that the candidate with most cash to spend on his or her campaign in 9 out of 10 races won...

So, the Dems are truly stuck in a bad situation. The Repubs have a 2 to 1 cash advantage going into the '06 election cycle and even though the population in general is far more "liberal" than "Conservative" on individual issues, the Dems are afraid to promote populist issues for fear of running off what corporate cash they are recieving because most populist issues in some fashion or another will require a larger sacrifice from Boss Hog...

In other word, the Dems are screwed!!! Go populist and loose what cash they are getting or don't and loose the "screwed majority" who don't have a lot of cash...

Now if it were truly a decision made on ideals then it would be a no brainer but without the dough to combat a tidal wave of Willie Horton ads that Boss Hog, when threatened, will run 24/7 if that's what it takes, the Dems really can't stand fir much of anything...

Which is exactly where they are today... BTW, the average Senator needs to raise over $8000 a day in campaign contributions to fund his or her next campaign...

I see no way out fir the Dems... Their current strategy of running on a theme of "We-ain't-as-corrupt-as-the-other-guys" may be their only option...

And who gets screwed??? Well, the "screwed majority", that's who who, BTW, aren't neo-cons, Christain Right or that conservative either...

According to recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Group, the Wall Street Journal and CBS News;

*65% in favor of national health insurane even if it means raising taxes

*86% fir raising them minimum wage

*60% fir recalling Bush tax cuts

*66% fir reducing the deficit by reducing DoD spending

*77% fir doing wahtever it takes to protect the environment

*87% think big corporations are gouging

*68% aginst offshoring jobs

*55 say that invading Iraq was the wrong thing to do

*60% say America is on the wrong track

Butcan the Dems tap into many of these concerns and still expect the big checks from Boss Hog?

Not likely...

Springsteen was right...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM

Righto, Don!

Isn't it curious how the 'left-wing progressives' (oxymoron for sure), and the liberal establishment spend so much time infighting, and yet are self satisfyingly convinced of thier political correctness... so much so, that hubris sets in when it comes to their approach to republicans...

Yet the underlying insecurity that liberals try to hide, is that the basic confrontation of "ideas vs. reality" that symbolizes their issues with republicans... is, simply put... 'no contest'. It is their basic impatience with the "status quo" that urges them onwards... and inflates their overused egos... to a systematic psychological shortcomming... ie. 'to disagree vehemently with reality'... that unshakable bastion of careful conservatives.

Neo-cons... IMHO, are no less guilty of this... but, fact is... their core values are more condusive to the cohesiveness of their cohorts... as are Al-Quiada, apparently...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 02:39 PM

By the way, Bobert, I'm not just honkin' at you. I'm giving myself a good, swift kick at the same time.

Cheers!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 02:33 PM

Well, Bobert, there are a couple of ways one can go.

One way is to support one of the minority parties such as the Greens or the Independent Party ("Independent Party." Isn't that an oxymoron?). The problem here is that the way the political system is set up in this country, "third" parties, which generally pull maybe four or five percent of the vote at best, don't stand much of a chance. The best they can do is to indicate that there is a small percentage of people who feel they are not being represented by the two "biggies." No matter how good their platforms are, they generally have little money, and about the best they can do to get the word out that they exist at all is to have a web site and maybe have their candidate get an interview or two on an NPR station. Quick! Tell me the name of the Green Party's presidential candidate in 2004. See what I mean? I can't remember it either.

Another way:   Thom Hartmann, whose articles I have linked to several times here on Mudcat, offers what is probably the most productive outlet for one's endeavors. Here it is again. This appears to be the most optimistic option. At least the mechanism is already in place. Read this article. Read it twice. Print it out and read it again. Third party advocates don't like what Hartmann says here and want to dismiss it, but both historical and current events more than amply demonstrated that what Hartmann says is true. Hate it if you like, but think hard about it. Hartmann isn't making this up. He's just pointing out the way things are. Swear! Kick! Spit! Now—read the article again. And really think about it!

Now, at the risk of being told, "Look, Firth, you've already posted this quote at least 372 times on various threads!" I will post it yet again. When you go to party meetings, keep repeating this like a mantra:

"Between a Republican and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the Republican will win every time!"
                                                                                                                               —Harry S. Truman

There's an organization which, as I understand it, is based on Vashon Island, near Seattle, called "The Backbone Campaign." HERE. They're on the backs (one could say "literally") of the Democratic Party, harassing the hell out of them. When you pull up the web site, go over to the right column and click on the photo of the guy with the two girls, then scroll down for the blow-up of the back of the T-shirt and read the group's platform and what they are bugging the Dems about. These folks are seriously pissed-off, and they're doing something about it.

Forget what Boss Hogg "owns" or doesn't own. The Republican Party now represents the neo-conservatives and the Christian Right because these groups knew what they wanted, they got organized, formed a coalition with each other, then moved in and essentially took over the Republican Party. Real Republicans and real conservatives (and might I add real Christians?) are not too happy about this. They got left out in the cold along with the rest of the country. In the meantime, the Democratic Party is not organized, they're standing around with their fingers up their . . . noses . . . and wondering what the hell happened. They have no direction. The best they have come up with so far is a slogan for the 2008 campaign:   "We Can Do Better!" Oh, Jaysus! If they can't do any better than that, this country, under a Christian fundamentalist neo-conservative government, will collapse into a Dark Ages-style feudal state within the next decade or two.

It's up to you and me to get in there and kick some butt. C'mon, Bobert, you're a fighter! Subscribe to the Democratic Party's e-mail news letter and bulletins (they keep begging for money, but since I don't have much, I ignore that and make my contributions in other ways) so you have an idea of what they're up to (right now, they're just sort of groping around), and also subscribe to things like AlterNet Headlines and MoveOn. Probably you already do. Good!

It's a matter of steering the Democratic Party in the right direction ("right" direction? Lousy choice of words, all things considered, but at least it's grammatically correct). If the Dems can't figure it out—as, so far, they don't seem to be able to—then it's up to people like you and me, and the folks in the Backbone Campaign organization, and other essentially disenfranchised people to give them a direction. Drag them kicking and screaming, if necessary.

If the Dems offer a definite alternative (see the back of the Backbone Campaign T-shirt), and if it is articulated clearly and briefly, and if it resonates with a sufficiently large enough number of people as I'm sure it will, then Boss Hogg's money is not going to matter that much.

Nothing will be accomplished if all we do is just sit around bitching and complaining. Attend meetings. Talk to people. Write letters. There are lots of folks out there who believe as you do. Yell your head off. Make a real pain in the ass of yourself.

(End pep talk. Let's get crackin'!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:51 AM

Yeah, Don, but...

... just why are folks gonna vote fir the "We-Ain't-Them" Dems...

They are about as sorry as their rival fraternity...

Yeah, the problem with the entire scenerio is that, like their rival fraternity, they are funded by the same folks: Boss Hog and his buddies...

Plus, there are only about 10% of House seats that are competetive anymore because of 8 years of Dem gerrymandering and lots of Repb gerrimandering since 2000...

So, unless the Democratic Party swears off Boss Hogs cash and gets some spine to it, they will loose...

(But, Bobert, doesn't the party with the least cash usually loose the elections???)

Well, yeah, it does... And that's why the Dems won't get any spine 'cause that would mean that Boss Hog would quit sending the big checks and the Dems would have to scramble fir cash...

So, yeah, it looks like 2006 is a mid-ter, that clearly is the Dems to loose and they are working very hard at doing just that... Even Howard Dean hasn't been able to get thru to their cashew sized brains...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 07:43 AM

Bobert, I have review the post of the past 24 hours and can't realize wht transpired in order for you to go on the attack like you did.

Have a bad day? Or is it the realization that personal attacks are all you really have to work with?

So, Bobert is a "badass hillbilly?" Apparently half of that quote is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:55 PM

Nobody's gettin' whupped, crowbar. Congressional elections are coming up in 2006 and Presidential elections in 2008.

Not saying Bush is a lame duck, but when he looks in the mirror in the mornings, he checks for feathers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM

GUEST A,

You forgot to put yer mask on...

You are the biggest jerk 'round here ince MG had his little situation and guess what... Yer friggin ISP can be lobbed off just like MG was threatened with...

If you have anything intellegent to say, say it... If not, go beat off in the corner, you creep.... No, make that anonomus creep... Keep it up, GUEST, A (as in assh*le)...

BTW, you coward, I ain't hard to find so if you want some of this ol' hillbilly, bring yer cowardly self on an' you'll get you a free butt whup...

No brag, just fact, assh*le!!!

I'll even provide you with detailed direction to claim yer ass whuppin'... Heck, I'll meet you at the interstate to save you some gas...

Bobert (badest hillbilly you ever got a butt whup from, jerk-off...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 11:12 PM

You know, I don't care whether anyone believes it but I would be most happy to discover that the neoconservatives were right about our illustrious leader and the direction in which his government is taking. The thing is I don't believe I ever will find any such thing to be true. This path defies logic, morality, history, and all the better instincts of humankind.

So don't for a minute think that we who are in the habit of thinking for ourselves are getting ourselves whupped. Appalled and silent at hearing such blatant ignorance is more like it.

If we ever meet, I'll buy you a beer. But don't talk politics, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 10:58 PM

Yknow, it looks to me like the antiwar protesters here are getting their asses whipped.

All they can do is complain like toothless old women.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM

Well, ttr, I can appreciate what yopu are saying and lots of us are doing what we can where we can... Yeah, I feel completely disenfranchished in terms of how the federal government operates...

...but with that said, I have been involved with community programs and find a lot of satsisfatcion there because I have a voice...

I don't forsee ver having a voice at the federal level... I think it is so corrupt that the only voices being heard are voices of rich people... The Dems take big money from rich people so they certainly aren't going to step up...

You asked me earlier if I was for some kind of revolution. Well, yes, very much so. This is exactly what we need. A revolution where the working class revolts against the master... Now, I'm not advicating taking up arms and doing some kind of Che Gavaera thing...

What is going to occur is that eventually the aristocracy will squeeze the wiorking man just a littl e to hard and I predict it will start in the South becuase people in the South are both passionate and underpaid so they are going to be the first to revolt... I predict that within 5 years, Boss Hog won't feel afe driving his million dollar travel bus thru the South and when that occurs the revolution will have begun...

Kinda funny... Not only has the South risen again with the Southern Strategy but it will rise again to take down a corrupt federal goverment by letting those in power know, without doubt, that they have had enough of being led around like cattle with meaningless flag burning, gay marriage crap and are looking at their bills and their shrinking pay checks...

Oh yeah, wages are rising... Bull feathers... Another meaningless stat...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:25 PM

by Kevin Sites Mon, Nov 28 2005, 6:59 PM

ETERBIL, Iraq -- It's Friday at dusk. People are strolling through the gardens, lounging on the grass, reading, eating snacks and chatting near the refreshment stand.

Zirar Abdullah poses his young son and daughter on the playground spinner, then snaps their picture in the perfectly diffused golden light.

"I come here with my family every Friday," Abdullah says. "I feel very secure. I feel free to do what I like."

video linkIt seems very much the picture of tranquility, this public park in the city of Erbil in predominantly Kurdish northern Iraq. But the setting becomes even more remarkable with the revelation of its history.

The grounds on which these people now enjoy a leisurely afternoon was once the headquarters of the Iraqi Army's 5th Legion, placed here by
Saddam Hussein to maintain control over the rebellious Kurds.

After the 1991
Gulf War, Saddam Hussein was compelled by the peace agreement to withdraw his forces from most of northern Iraq, giving the Kurds de facto autonomy over their territory.

It not only allowed the Kurds to turn this former Iraqi base into a public park, but also allowed them to create a society where, unlike the rest of Iraq, a diversified economy and democratic institutions were given a chance to develop.

The Kurds not only have survived as a people but also protected their culture, despite Saddam's reign of oppression against the population. During a 1988 campaign known as Anfal, Saddam issued a systematic series of attacks on Kurdish villages in the north, leading to the disappearance and presumed death of 182,000 people. In the single worst attack, at least 5,000 people were killed in a chemical weapons attack on the town of Halabja.

Today northern cities like Erbil and Sulaymaniyah are Iraq through the looking glass: relatively peaceful, secure and in the full throes of an economic boom. They are the polar opposite of much of the rest of the country.

Everywhere you look, building is under way. In downtown Erbil construction has begun on what is being promoted as the largest shopping mall in Iraq.

Flights from cities like Frankfurt, Dubai and Amman now arrive at Erbil's newly opened international airport. Workers are busy expanding a highway that runs between Erbil and Sulaymaniyah.

video linkLarge western-style residential developments are being created by the dozens with names like "Dream City," offering swimming pools and tennis courts -- all at western-style prices.

At a shawarma restaurant in downtown Erbil, 26-year-old Sherwan Shekahani says business couldn't be better.

"I feel like people are paid better now. They have better salaries so they go out to eat more often," he says.

And the good times have created job opportunities for those from less peaceful areas. Nawzad Eado left Mosul two months ago, he says, after his cousin, who owned a liquor store, was shot dead by terrorists.

He also works in an Erbil restaurant and is planning on staying.

"It's much more peaceful here," Eado says. "You don't have to fear the daily violence."

But part of what is fueling the huge economic growth, people say, is also fueling widespread corruption. Since it is seen as more stable than the rest of the country, northern Iraq is attracting much more foreign investment from the U.S., Europe and even regional neighbors like
Iran and Turkey -- a nation considered a longtime nemesis by the Kurds.

The Kurdish regions of northern Iraq are controlled by two main political parties, the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP), dominant in Erbil and the north along the Turkish border, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK), dominant in Sulaymaniyah and areas to the eastern border.

These main political factions are also the gateway to investment here and, because of that, critics say, their leadership is growing richer by the day.

But the unwillingness of many of their critics to go on the record is also a testament to the political control the KDP and PUK exert over the region.

photo essay linkThe growth has also created a labor shortage. Furniture store owner Zana Aziz says people used to beg him for jobs at $50 a month. Now he has to pay $200-$300 a month and he still has trouble keeping the 10 workers he needs to run his business. The problem, he says, is police recruitment.

"I've lost so many workers to the police force," he says. "They sign up and make 400 or more dollars a month and only have to work a few days a week. I see many of them sitting in the coffee shops or the marketplace."

Aziz says he thinks so many new policemen have been hired the government has trouble keeping track of them, so many of them don't have to work much, but still get paid.

Many businesses have started hiring Arab workers who have traveled to the Kurdish areas from central and western Iraq, but Aziz says he's not ready to take that step.

"I'm not sure I can trust them," Aziz says. "You hear so much about suicide bombings and, also, I could be abducted. I'm afraid to do it."

Inflation is also a huge problem in northern Iraq. Aziz says a few years back he used to pay $200 a month rent for his storefront. Now he pays $1,000 and the landlord is demanding even more.

Taxi driver Hemin Salam says he's making a lot more money than he did in the past, but that's offset by the high price of spare parts for his cab and the cost of fuel. Because of problems with the oil pipeline and refinement, he's able to buy only 30 liters of fuel every three days. If his taxi runs out of gas on the wrong day, he can't work.

But while many challenges remain, the mood in northern Iraq, at least for the time being, seems nearly buoyant.

In an empty parking lot on the side of a road in Erbil, men and women link arms, form a long line and dance a traditional three-step dance in celebration for the marriage of Sangar Kamal to his bride Sirwa Luqman.

Men at the end of each dancing line swirl prayer beads and wave colorful handkerchiefs as the dancers kick out their legs, moving forward then dipping back. The celebration continues into the evening until everyone is too exhausted to continue.

Although most can speak Arabic here, Kurdish is the main language of the region now and has been since the Iraqi forces withdrew.

But now a bigger question has been forced on the Kurds after more than 14 years of autonomy: Why rejoin Iraq at all when what so many Kurds have always wanted is their own nation?

With 22 million Kurds spread throughout Iraq, Turkey and Iran, they are the largest ethnic group in the world without a country to call their own.

Many feel the U.S. has put pressure on the main political factions here to remain part of Iraq, bringing a small dose of stability into the very heart of volatility. Some experts feel the Kurds are the "X factor" -- the glue that will hold it all together if they stay, or cause Iraq to rip apart if they opt for separation.

Even within Kurdish families the question is a difficult one. Sheik Mahmoud Junaid fought the Iraqi army as part of the very first Kurdish resistance in 1961, yet he doesn't think Kurdish independence is feasible right now.

Junaid says, "Everyone knows we are happy to witness this freedom right now. But the agony is in the south and central parts of Iraq. If it remains it will be terrible for all of us."

His sons, Hussein and Sayid, disagree with their father, and believe that an independent Kurdistan would be better for everyone. Sayid also thinks coalition forces should leave all of Iraq at some point, that the sight of American tanks can provoke people.

Junaid says the Americans need to stay.

"The day the Americans leave," he says, "on the next day the Arabs will attack us. When the Americans go we will go with them," he says, only half-jokingly.

Back in Erbil Park, Zirar Abdullah echoes that underlying anxiety as he and his family get ready to go home.

"I prefer separation," Abdullah says, "but for now it's OK to live with the Iraqis. Kurdistan is now secure, but if at any point that changes we must be ready."

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: GUEST,A
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 07:49 AM

Well, this should bring a few catcalls............

Due to the attacks of the Democrats which consist of nothing but just plain derogatory commentary, nothing substantial, I am presently content with a lot of GWBs leadership.

There is no alternative available at the present time..

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 07:25 AM

No responses from me till Thursday, as I'm off to St. Thomas's in London for an angiogram, and I'm staying with my family for a couple of days.

I look forward to continuing this debate when I get back.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Brought to you by... GHWBush
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Dec 05 - 05:54 AM

That last sentence should read

When , and only when, his supporters recognise these limitations, it will be possible to seek ways to remedy the situation. I only hope it will not come too late to avoid moral and financial bankruptcy for the world's largest democracy