BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch

Subject: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:01 PM

Or maybe Walmart is giving it to them. I'm starting to get concerned about the amount of unbalanced trade between the U.S and China. The Chinese are holding a big bunch of our notes, making record sales, building infrastucture and generally sucking the life out of our economy.

I have no problem with open trade agreements that would allow Chinese (any foreign, actually)goods to be in our markets.What I strenuosly object to is U.S. manufacturers sending their product or components of their products offshore to be made cheaply and then brought back to the U.S. for sale. This eliminates jobs and incomes here at home. It serves only the short term greed of owners and shareholders of U.S. companies. Eventually, the bubble will burst as american wage earners simply have no more wages to spend.

I believe it's time for americans to protect themselves by slowing down their purchases of foreign goods. The Chinese are enjoying their huge profits with an enormous arms build up in recent years. Low prices are nice, but at what cost?

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

Why don't you get your own back by forcing democracy on them!
G.☺

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:08 PM

Well, leftydee, I'm on that bandwagon. Last year I paid $1.85 each for acrylic beer 'glasses' for our beer festival (made in US) This year I'm getting them from China at 35 cents apiece. I buy 10,000 at a time ...

It's an irony of free trade that the US pushed it during the 1980s because it was positioned to be the big winner, and is now about to be at the receiving end of a 'Commies-learn-quick' economic shafting.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: MarkS
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 12:24 PM

Just wait 'till they start shipping automobiles here.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:03 PM

MarkS, That's really already happening. They aren't sending whole cars......but a majority of components are built outside the US.The Ford Fiesta, if you remember that piece of junk, had only 17% American content. Most of the little electric motors on your vehicle are Chinese built (there's lots!) wiring harnesses, electronics and any small component that are easily shipped are in jeopardy. American manufacturers are in some cases closing their plants, finding foreign sources and continuing to market their product or component to US customers. The pressures are pretty obvious when you see major manufacturers like Delphi taking a nose dive. What used to be a job that could lead an unskilled worker to the middle class is now history.The new pay rates at Delphi are "McJobs", at best, with low wage and benefit packages.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: bobad
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:13 PM

The only way to have an impact is for the consumer to refuse to consume.

Unfortunately I see the local Wal-Mart packed daily as most of the competition has long ago closed its doors.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:14 PM

BigPinkLad,

I hear you loud and clear. It's a dilemma. It's difficult to pay more for essentially the same thing. The bugger of the deal is that, if we continue down this path, there'll be no beer fesival for your grandkids. They'll be struggling to eat, no cash for beer. The leaders ( owners)of this country are all well invested and continue to make ridiculous profits regardless of where it comes from.... the workin' stiff, on the other hand, does not. I expect NO help from the government until the wealthy feel the pressure. Joe Lunchbox is the only guy to stop it. Quit shopping at Walmart and any other place that does't handle homemade goods. Your grandchildren will bless you for it.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:17 PM

Giok....maybe so.... it's working so darn well in Iraq. Lefty

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: *daylia*
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:34 PM

Two of my sons used to work for IBM in Toronto Ontario, selling personal computers to mostly American customers. Last spring, IBM sold their PC division to a Chinese company called Lenovo.

So, my Canadian sons now work for this Chinese company, selling IBM (ie "American") products to American consumers, from Toronto Ontario.

How very circuitous.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:49 PM

Yes, daylia is spot on. The UK went through this panic in the 1960s (who remembers the "I'm Backing Britain" campaign? T-shirts made in Portugal!) but it's the way of the world; global economy means just that. Most British companies lost out to US giants back then, but they came to terms with it and people are now better off (generally, economically).

No beer festivals? The Chinese are the biggest producers and consumers of beer. I just hope they learn to like real ale. ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:53 PM

Daylia

This globalization effects all of us. Trade with our Canadian brothers (in my case real brothers... 2 bros of mine are Canadian Citizens) has always been a bit lopsided but reasonably fair. Sure, we fight about lumber and cattle now and then, but our major Corps work both sides of the border without one side being completely digested. What makes our economy work is not the amount of money there is, but on how fast we circulate it amongst ourselves. The profits from Lenovo are leaving us and winding up as arms for the Chinese. This doesn't help us maintain a vigorous economy. I'm in the same situation as your son, I work in sales. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find North American or European product to represent.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 02:11 PM

If US citizens are getting disturbed, they should be. I've been involved in a futures thinktank recently, and it is estimated that by 2010 the US will be in the beginnings of a post-petroleum economy -- and because of a lack of emphasis on education (especially in math, engineering, and science) will be in decline, "losing" to China and India (who are on a collision course, in a sense).

Read what the National Association of Manufacturers (hardly a Left-Wing, Liberal, Socialist organization) wrote in their 2005 "Labor Day Report."

China owns something like 40% of the US National Debt, too...and that's paying for the Iraq business, while the Bushies cut taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 02:22 PM

Rapaire

It scares the shit out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 02:29 PM

Them Chinese can't make an accordion to save their sorry asses. The Japanese, however, when they get round to it, which is rumoured to be soon, will wipe Castelfidardo off the map.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: NH Dave
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:42 PM

Oddly enough, Yamaha, with its cryptic logo, three interlaced tuning forks, got its start manufacturing pianos for the Japanese market. They were mostly sold the to Japanese and the odd military person, stationed in Japan. I understand that their pianos are very well made, but may not be competitive over here where someone has to pay for shipping the darned things across the Pacific. Of course in the US, they are best known for their motorcycles.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 08:20 PM

We have a very nice Yamaha upright at the library.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 08:33 PM

The plan that has been cooked up between Boss Hog and China is this: Boss Hog will continue to sell off American jobs to 3rh World countries, then squeeze the American, for which he had loaned money to to by a bunch of Chinese crap, to the point they will work fir $3 an hour and then the average American will take the place of the Clinese peasant in the food chain....

And that will, of course, bring an end to all of the New Deal stuff and Boss Hog and his familee will ahve them a very nice and smug little Christmas...

Ho friggin' ho...

Bobert Claus

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 08:36 PM

Bobert,

This is of course the plan that Little Dickhead Johnny is working on here too!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 09:39 PM

Lord knows I've eaten enough Chinese lunches!

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: Beer
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 10:08 PM

I have mentioned this before on some other thread that I had(still have) a great friend, guru (Priest)when I was growing up. He truly had the gift of gab and eventually became the Arch Bishop on Nova Scotia. Well in one of his sermons (and I truly don't remember what it was all about.)he said that one day the Chinese, when ready, will take over the world, and all they would need are their sticks. This was back in the early 60's. For some reason I never forgot this. I'm not a religuos person. I don't go to (any) church anymore, but I do see that things are shifting in many repects.

Ice caps melting, forest being leveled, our beloved birds being gassed. Virus of on be known cures. Bites from those pesty mosquitoes, polluted waters not to mention the fish with two heads and glowing in the dark. Oh! and did you know that what "God" created 50 million years ago "The Wonderful Loon", will be in all likelihood extinct in 25 years due to our polluted lakes. Aids, floods in increasing numbers as well as hurricanes and all that goes with them.
Then you look at all the global conflicts (wars) going on.

Hay! I know I've forgotten some other negative thoughts. But these are true. I'm not a negative person. In fact I try and stay away from them because they bring you down.

Were still lucky in some respect. If you live in the country you can still look up and see the stars. But how long can you be outside in the summer with no shirt?

The Chinese? I remember laughing at things we use to get from Japan. What a laugh it was. Now it is accepted. Maybe the same with China, but I don't think so.
Sleep well.
Beer

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 11:28 PM

Just read in the Wall St Journal that the Chinese increased consumption of oil is likely this year to be half what it was last year. Among other things, the Chinese gas price has hit a record, and more gas-efficient cars are "in".

So--no grounds for complacency, but Armageddon may not be here quite yet.

It would obviously help the oil situation if the illustrious US "leaders" would actually take fuel economy seriously---instead of finding excuses not to--as for instance, we can always pillage the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:07 AM

Years ago I used to read the American Science Fiction magazine, 'Fantasy & Science Fiction'. The 'Science' column, in the mag, was by Isaac Asimov - and it was a 'must read'. The one thing that used to bug me about this column was the fact that, the otherwise estimable and rational, Dr Asimov, could never bring himself to criticise the West's love affair with the internal combustion engine. I used to think, "OK, but what happens when all the people in China acquire cars?" Well, in the next few years I'll probably find out!
It's not China or the Chinese people that scare me - it's the sheer size of the Chinese population that is terrifying - and the consequences of giving them all a Western lifestyle. And yes, I know, we in the West have absolutely no right, moral or otherwise, to deny them any lifestyle that they aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 06:20 AM

I was told by ShanghaiCeltic who lives and works in China, that fuel there is cheap due to government subsidies. It sounds to me like the Chinese have increased world oil demand and thus helped to push up prices, yet they are selling it at home for less than they pay for it.
There must be a reason for this but it is too obscure for me to figure out.
Of course GW Shrub's little excursions to foreign oil producing parts hasn't exactly reduced the world price of oil, although it has helped put up the profits of the oil companies.
I bet he has Exxon shares!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: leftydee
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 10:01 AM

Giok,
No doubt he's well invested in all major oil companies. The energy policy for this country was established behind closed doors by oil executives only. No voice for the evironment nor the consumer. Recently, these same oil execs where called to congress to explain the huge profits made thru our hurricane and war crises and one of the Bush cronies ( Rep from Alaska) refused to make them be sworn in. They swore in baseball players there to talk about steroid abuse, for cripessake! It sure seems odd to me... how 'bout you?

Subject: RE: BS: I think the Chinese are eating my lunch
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 12:03 PM

Oddly enough, Yamaha, with its cryptic logo, three interlaced tuning forks, got its start manufacturing pianos for the Japanese market. They were mostly sold the to Japanese and the odd military person, stationed in Japan. I understand that their pianos are very well made, but may not be competitive over here where someone has to pay for shipping the darned things across the Pacific.

Yamaha pianos have definitely improved since they were introduced to North American market in the late 60's. THe first Yamaha piano were "wet pianos" ie built of Asian wood. They could not stand up to the different climate here - the wood warped quickly when exposed to the drier climate here, so those "prototype" Yamaha pianos found their way to the junk heap in very short order.

Yamaha quickly compensated by building pianos destined for NA exclusively from North American woods, and today Yamaha pianos are among the finest in the world.

I know - I have 2!   A vintage grand from 1971, and a studio upright I bought last year for teaching. I love 'em both - but believe me, they can't hold a candle to a Steinway as far as tone quality and touch sensitivity are concerned.

The bottom line is - you get what you pay for. A new Yamaha grand piano costs about $15,000 here in Canada; a new Steinway costs about $70,000.

Currently, there's a real problem with Asian manufacturers like Yamaha and Kawai dumping "wet pianos" (ie pianos built of Asian wood and intended for the Asian market) for liquidation or re-sale here in North America. Unfortunately, the considerably lower price tags are attractive to people who know nothing about the instrument (ie a "wet Yamaha" runs about $1500 new; the same model built of NA wood to withstand this climate costs about $5000). "Wet pianos" look great, and sound ok for a few months, but within a year or two they are warped, cracked, untuneable and impossible to repair - better suited for the woodpile than for the living room.

As far as Chinese pianos go, they've been around for only the last decade or so. The Chinese started building them for companies like Young Chang and Yamaha. My best advice as a piano teacher is ... STAY AWAY, for now. They may be a LOT cheaper than other models, but till the Chinese learn how to build 'em!, it's caveat emptor.

For info about piano manufacturers, including Chinese pianos, click here

"The first pianos that came out of China several years ago were pretty rough, and were consequently priced pretty low. For a while they sort of ran neck and neck in quality (or lack thereof) with the pianos from the new Eastern European nations, many of which were also pretty rough and which required extensive servicing and dealer prep before they could be termed "playable"...

In the last few years however, Chinese pianos have improved somewhat in quality, due to substantial interest and investments from overseas piano manufacturers, and from the Chinese government, and also due to a motivated, eager labor force, willing to work hard for very modest wages.... There is still considerable debate as to the durability of these instruments, and whether they can be expected to hold up as well as ones of more established make and reputation."