BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person

Subject: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: GUEST,Bobby
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:28 AM

George Bush's goon squad killed and innocent person today. He was off his medication and his wife was yelling and trying to tell them but they shot him any way.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Dead Horse
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:51 AM

They were not "goons" Bobby. They were guys who took what they considered to be appropriate action in the heat of the moment to protect hundreds of passengers.
The guy or guys who shot the "innocent person" will have to live with their decision. Maybe they will resign due to ill health brought on by stress, then there will be a vacancy.
You up for the job?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:55 AM

And they will feel worse now they know it was a mistake - if they ARE human... probably use the gun on themsleves.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Mr Fox
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:24 AM

Anything like the Metropolitan Police and they'll be working on their alibis while their boss tries to get everything hushed up.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 07:36 AM

Is there anything you hippies don't hold Mr Bush responsible for?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 08:07 AM

Hey, even I don't hold this one against Bush but there were some 50 Iraqis who died yesterday and ____ (fill in the blank when the newspaper comes out) American servicemen that I do hold Bush accoutable for...

Hey, if this guy had a bomb, like he siad he did, and had been able to detonate it there could have been alot of innocent people killed...

Sorry, this one wasn't on the Shrub...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 08:10 AM

Hate to admit it, Ted, but Bush had nothing to do with this one. The marshalls shot a man who was claiming he had a bomb. Had they not shot him and it turned out tht he and his wife were terrorists, Bobby would be claiming that Bush is incompetent. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 08:22 AM

Suicide by 'cop'.

If someone yelled at me that they had a bomb and then appeared to be trying to get to it, and it was my job to protect a group of people, I would have shot him. I would feel bad for him and his wife, who will ALSO be wondering if there were something else she could have done. I would be angry I was put in the position of shooting him, but I would think I made the only choice possible under the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 08:36 AM

Yeah, this is more of the crap that just makes those that don't approve of Bush and the conservatives look bad. There is plenty to attack without going after something that was a tragic, but correct, action.

Let me asssure you that if I am on that plane, there are innocents aboard, a man says he has a bomb and reaches for the bag, he is dead. Period. That is what Air Marshals are charged with doing.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:18 AM

Protect the greatest number, protect the innocents.

I would have shot, too -- I agree with Big Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:51 AM

Cartoon for Air Marshall's Magazine.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/airlines1.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:57 AM

"Is there anything you hippies don't hold Mr Bush responsible for?"

He's not responsible for you, Ted.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:05 AM

The phrase, "you hippies" is interesting. Seems you have so many people categorized. Relax. I ain't a hippie, never have been a hippie and never will be a hippie. So what's your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 10:11 AM

The marshals did what they were trained to do in the best interest of public safety. Today they may be having second thoughts, and I feel sorry for the mother and the fellow who died, but when ya arm people and give them a mission, they tend to try to do what their training says they should. I am glad I didn't have to make that call.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:02 AM

what Peace and Mick said....

it's VERY sad that something like this happened, but if he was off his meds and had problems, the plane's crew should have beem informed, so they could watch him! It might have been prevented if the marshals had been warned.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:16 AM

He was a big boy......why didn't he take his meds?????

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:17 AM

In all the reports I have seen they have never said unequivocally that the victim said he had a bomb, they have said instead that; he indicated he had a bomb, he suggested he had a bomb, he made some kind of reference to a bomb.

Was the victim even speaking english? No one has said.

It will be difficult to have witnesses give an unvarnished account since ALL the passengers were marched off the plane with their hands on their heads and interrogated for several hours. This kind of debriefing that in effect had witnesses under arrest without the ability to continue traveling or communicating with each other is a severe kind of intimidation that can bias anyones account of what they saw and heard.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:23 AM

I don't hold Bush responsible for bad weather (well, some of it...), acne, cats that stand in the door for 10 minutes deciding, crazy girlfriends, boots that are too tight/loose, and the color of eggplants.

I'm not sure I hold him responsible for this incident either. Maybe partly. Maybe not.

How's that, flamenco ted?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:24 AM

I love it when people toddle over to the Mudcat to bloviate without even stopoping long enough to see there are already TWO threads on this, that I know of.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:32 AM

I love it when...


perhaps she doesn't love it at all.
Perhaps Suesan hates repreatitive redundancy over and over again with so much repeatition that we have seen over and over that we have all seen before that we recognize the same old repeatitions in other threads that our outrage becomes so irrepressable that we have to say something about it again and again.

...................................

My observation regarding the actual words the victim may have used was however unique.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:32 AM

Haven't seen the other threads, but do have a couple of thoughts.

If he said he had a bonb, which is under question, wouldn't it be dangerous to shoot at him, possibly setting off "the bomb?"

And, why deadly force? Couldn't they have shot a leg/arm to disable?

I will be glad of the day when use of deadly force is never necessary with the advent of other means to stop possible criminals. i've seen reports of "net-guns" and foam spray which stops them in their tracks without killing them. I hope we see a day when these, or something like them, are in common use.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:42 AM

They have to use deadly force so the brain cannot issue a command to push the button. "I'm bringing a bomb to leave with you all" is how we still think of terrorism, but today's bombs are more usually suicide-bombs triggered by the wearer. Stopping them from walking doesn't stop them from blowing up a whole lot of people.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 11:59 AM

Piove? Governo ladro.

That what Italians might say tongue in cheek to Bobby.

It rains? Fucking government.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:00 PM

1. The first reports stated flatly that he said he had a bomb. He grabbed for a bag.

2. He did not obey the orders to stop and drop.

3. He spoke in English.

4. Why was he off his medication??

5. Watch someone running. The arms and legs move, the torso and the head rarely do. You shoot at the "center of mass" to insure a hit; police snipers aim for a spot below and behind the ear where the bullet will destroy the so-called "reptilian brain" -- this will cause death before a trigger can be pulled.

6. Anyone familiar with firearms and shooting will tell you that "shooting the gun out of the hand" or "shooting to wound" are movie and TV fantasies -- or accidents.

7. The other passengers were treated as they were because the suspected bomber could well have had an accomplice.

Come on, folks! Use your heads!

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:26 PM

I was too young to be a beatnik and too old to be a hippie. I am not now, nor have I ever been, a hippie. Whatever that is. Someone who plays a guitar and sings folk songs? Does that mean that Richard Dyer-Bennet, standing there on stage wearing white tie and tails, was a hippie?

This can't be blamed on Bush, nor can it be blamed on the "goons." The air marshals, charged with protecting the passengers and the plane made a judgment call based on the evidence they had. They didn't shoot until the man, who claimed he had a bomb, reached into his briefcase.

Under the circumstances and given the nature of the perceived threat, it wasn't exactly practical to give the man a psychiatric evaluation before pulling the trigger.

Addendum on the use of deadly force:   a conscientious law-enforcement officer does not "shoot to kill," they think in terms of shooting to stop the person from doing whatever it is they are doing. The idea of the Lone Ranger never killing anyone who draws on him because he draws faster and shoots the gun out of their hand is pure fiction. No one, no matter how good a shot they are, can be sure of being that accurate. So, in circumstances like those the air marshals were facing (imminent explosion) they shot at what they could be reasonably certain of hitting:   the man's torso.

I'm no fan of George W. Bush, and I can find a lot of things to blame him for, but it's ree-bloody-diculous to try to blame him—or the air marshals—for this.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:26 PM

If you have to shoot, you shoot! There is no such thing as shoot to wound.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:40 PM

Even if he hadn't said he had a bomb, he was acting suspisciously and was told to put the backpack down. He then tried to reach inside of it. I believe they would have had enough reason to shoot him just because of that. How much mobility does a person need to trigger a bomb? I would think not much.

People are so used to second chances, being cut some slack, or being allowed to argue, and there are just some situations where slack can't be afforded. I was in one of these once. When someone has a gun pointed at you, you do what they say, unless you want them to shoot you.

There are numerous contributing factors and places where the end might have been prevented. He could have taken his meds, his wife could have not talked him into flying, the people who allowed him to get on the plane might have noticed something odd, such as a BACKPACK ON HIS CHEST, somebody might have stopped him from running down the aisle, etc. That none of these possibilities occurred ensured he just kept plunging toward a future of getting shot. All the wrong decisions or non-decisions played out until there were just Air Marshals and guns, and they were the ones who had to make the final decisions and get the blame.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:46 PM

Who else here thinks that W also acts suspiciously?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: kendall
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:59 PM

It was not the Marshals fault that he was off his meds.
It was not Bush's fault that he was off his meds.

These air Marshals are not Barney Fife. They are highly trained to protect all the passengers, even if they have to kill one passenger.
They acted within the scope of their responsibility, and although it's sad that they had to shoot the guy, they had no choice.

In 1970 there was a shooting on an El Al plane, and, as far as I know there has never been one since. It is well known that El Al is the safest airline in the world. Maybe now ours will be too.

Personally, I'm glad to know that there could be a marshal aboard.
What would I have done? The same thing they did, without a second thought.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:22 PM

My wife works every day with people who have been committed to an institution because their behaviour has been judged to be dangerous. Today, in most cases, such people can be stabilized and enabled to lead fairly "normal" lives if a competent doctor gets the proper medication for a given case sorted out. Then, all too often, a general human tendency takes over: "why should I keep taking medicine; I feel all right now." The cases when this leads to outright tragedy become high profile incidents; they have nothing to do with where anyone is on the political spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM

Thanks for the answers and explanations, folks.

I am all for air marshalls on our planes.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 02:55 PM

If you ever have a raging fever blister on your lip while on a plane - never get to buy some lip balm in the airport. If asked where you are going and why - do not say "I forgot my balm" or anything similar. Better to say you have the runs.

John Stewart said last night, "This incident shows us that you can be drunk on a plane or you can act crazy on a plane... but never both together."

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: mg
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:36 PM

I would have shot the man and probably handcuffed the wife to the seat just in case. If nothing else, she could presumably become hysterical. If she knew he was off his meds, that should have been reported and he should have been under close observation if not erstraint. better an uncomfortable ride than a death. mg

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:49 PM

I think W acts very suspiciously! He has shifty eyes. However, this is also true of my dachshund. In the dachshund's case, he has reason to act suspiciously. He is usually either guilty of recent theft or contemplating future theft (of food). I'm not sure what it is in Bush's case.

I'd add an opinion on the unfortunate airline incident, but I feel you are all doing so well already that I don't really need to.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 03:51 PM

The airlines carry plastic restraints ("plastic handcuffs") and have used them on several occassions, notably on drunken passengers. But you have to get to the passenger to be able to use them, and apparently this guy was running away.

I believe that they also carry injectable Valium, too.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: kendall
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 04:27 PM

Furthermore, they are not "Goons" and the man wasn't innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: GUEST,A
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:29 PM

Bobby, do you actually feel the way you started this thread or were you just trying to be an instigator?

For your sake, I certainly hope it is the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:34 PM

Not to fear, folks...

I had to be away for the day but before leaving I asked the Wes Ginny Slide Rule to see if could unravel the identity of GUEST, Bobby and guess what???

Well, the WGSL has ascertained that the post came from a computer in Karl Rove's office...

Go figure???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:41 PM

This is the second thread started by a 'Guest' to excoriate without information participants in a tragic situation.

Making an attack without information and from behind a blind is cowardly.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Peace
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

Also, it's one helluva leap from sky marshal to Bush's goons. The program was started in 1968, FYI. It's not like it's new. True, the numbers of marshals has grown considerably, but after the events of 9/11, that is understandable. I can't stand Bush, but I fail to see how he should rightfully receive any blame for this. Trust me, if I thought Bush was responsible, I'd be on him like white on rice (unfortunate turn of phrase there), but the President gets a pass from me on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:54 PM

hahaha yeah right Mr. Robomatic.
You sir have never been worthy of exoneration from your transgressions while behind a blind and without information.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:12 PM

Hakman you don't seem to be able to distinguish between 'information' and 'fact' anyhow, so what's yer beef?

Nice XMAS thread, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:16 PM

?? Surely you are not telling us that you forgot to log out, are you, Don?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: JennyO
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 10:46 AM

I think W acts very suspiciously! He has shifty eyes.

Probably blinks more with them too ;-) Gotta watch those satellites - lalalalalalala

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Piers
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:27 AM

Goons it is.

"I never heard the word 'bomb' on the plane," McAlhany told TIME in a telephone interview. "I never heard the word bomb until the FBI asked me did you hear the word bomb. That is ridiculous." Even the authorities didn't come out and say bomb, McAlhany says. "They asked, 'Did you hear anything about the b-word?'" he says. "That's what they called it."
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1138965,00.html

The two marshals say Alpizar announced he was carrying a bomb before being killed. But, no other witness has publicly agreed with that account.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7001389280

the apparent discrepancy in the accounts between passengers and the air marshals
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1663231,00.html

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:35 AM

See my comments in the Fly Safe thread.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 11:41 AM

How many passengers ran after him off the plane and onto the jetway?

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:08 PM

Kendall's 100% right.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:11 PM

Agree, and furthermore GUEST, Bobby in starting the thread in such a way proved himself a trolling arseh*le. The other thread on the same subject has been much more reasonable.

Sheesh - some people...

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: leftydee
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 12:32 PM

I'm all for bashing the Bush Thugs whenever possible, but you can't hang this fellow's death on them. Maybe he was off his drugs, well, maybe someone that cared for him should have made sure he took them or kept him home. You can't blame law enforcement types for following procedure. Tragic? Absolutely, but you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre and expect people to divine the fact that you're kidding or crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 01:16 PM

Donuel - 08 Dec 05 - 11:17 AM

What you detailed in your last paragraph would be the only thing that would provide the authorities with "an unvarnished account" of what happened, i.e. all passengers individually debriefed without being given the chance to communicate with each other.

What intimidation? In what way would any of the passengers eye-witness accounts of what they saw and heard be biased by the debriefing process?.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: GUEST,A
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 02:59 PM

Was in a long, long series of classes for some Government work eons ago. One day, without any notice, a man bursts into the room, pretends to shoot the instructor (blanks) and runs out a side door. It was amazing the varied descriptions given of the man by the class members, who had been handpicked for this job. Plus, no one could remember what the intruder said during the brief episode or if he had said anything.

And, what Jeri said.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 03:27 PM

Roshamon

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 03:28 PM

Sorry, that's Rashomon

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 04:26 PM

One point I don't think has been mentioned: an adult cannot be made to stay home or on their meds if they are determined not to, unless committed to an institution of some sort. It is wrong, imo, to blame anyone for possibly NOT making him stay home or take his meds.

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 04:37 PM

In most airports there are signs prominently posted informing people going through boarding check that all jokes will be taken seriously. So if you want to be some kind of smart-ass, you're sure as hell going to miss your flight (maybe even a lot of flights) while the authorities give you a very bad time.

Although this man was apparently not joking, as far as the sky marshals were concerned, whatever he said--or for that matter, however he acted--had to be taken seriously.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Dec 05 - 09:16 PM

I hate friggin' Monday morning quarterbacks. Your 20/20 hindsight is a joke. This is a tragedy for all parties, just as the London Subway shooting was. You have 2 men making a split second decision because they want to protect innocent life. A death occurred that will haunt them for the rest of their lives, just as it will haunt the rest. It is what it is.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: NH Dave
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 01:24 AM

Piers- NOBODY says bomb or hijack in an airport if they wish to continue having a nice day. Airlines and Sky Marshals take any mention of these two words very seriously. And as we saw in this case, these folks are armed and have a very poor sense of humor.

   At best you will spend a long time trying to explain your sense of humor to people responsible for the safety of everybody on an aircraft, and take this responsibility very seriously. At worst, you will become the subject of another Mudcat discussion.

   Didn't the British Police recently kill a suspected terrorist?

   Dave

Subject: RE: BS: GWB's Goons Killed an Innocent Person
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 05 - 11:56 AM

Dave two wrongs don't make a right. Still no passenger has come forward to say they heard the word "bomb."