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BS: Thoughts About Suicide
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Amos Date: 17 Dec 05 - 12:21 PM Bill, You are building a self-referential chain based on a sharply bounded phenomonology. At some point the fact of observation itself and all it entails will present itself for understanding. It is not awareness that defines the spirit -- hell, any chipmunk has some. It is rather awareness of awareness. That's where the center of all these constructs is found. For the rest, cf. Little Hawk, above, the monk amongus. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 05 - 02:55 PM Amos..I don't DO 'bounded' philosophy, and phenomonology, by definition is not bounded...it is merely an approach to describing "the thing-in-itelf"...whether or not the 'thing' has any objective reality! If the only way you'll allow UNbounded thinking is to require that we 'accept in order to see', I'd suggest that we have a serious difference of opinion about what constitutes 'bounded'. As to 'self-referential chains', what do you you call a system that assumes concepts in order to describe, define and speculate on their nature? "Now let's all stipulate that 'spirit' and such like nouns are really relevant, and in an important sense, "there"...here's what they must be like!"....ummmmmmm Little Hawk, our resident monk ♫"I've got plenty of nothin', And nothin's plenty for me..♫ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Peace Date: 17 Dec 05 - 03:00 PM While thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking, I thought I'd thought that what I'd thought was what I'd thought. However, on re-examination, I see it wasn't so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: CarolC Date: 17 Dec 05 - 03:09 PM For some of us, Bill, these things aren't "assumed". They are experienced. Whether or not you are willing to accept our word about what we experience, and whether or not you are willing to accept that we are no more imagining our experiences than you are, is another matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 17 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM Daylia, there are too many ways to kill oneself to blame one method. Suppose that young man decided to throw himself from a height in front of those people. Or to cut his throat, spraying them with blood. No, it doesn't do to blame the method. He should have had help. I don't know -- perhaps those who succeed with suicide have something in their makeup, some defect. You came through, others did not. It sounds harsh and it is, but perhaps "the weak died on the way." Yes, "survival of the fittest" is important. But still, because I did not have instant access to a firearm -- or even to prescription drugs -- at least I was spared the temptation of such quick, easy-looking "solutions" at those weakest, most dangerous of moments. The stats do indicate a direct relationship between access to guns and "completed" suicides. According to the Canada Safety Council and Mood Disorders Society of Canada, reducing access to guns is an effective means of reducing/preventing suicide. "The proportion of completed suicides is highest with a firearm (92 per cent). A home where there are firearms is five times more likely to be the scene of a suicide than a home without a gun ... Nearly 80 per cent of all firearms deaths in Canada are suicides, compared to 15 per cent of homicides. A firearm is the method used in nearly 20 per cent of all suicide fatalities. Some say that in the absence of a firearm, a suicidal person will seek out another method, but research indicates that is not so. A Quebec study by the Centre de pr�vention du suicide 02 examined whether suicide rates were related to gun ownership rates.4 It found that where hunting for sport is common and firearms are more readily available, the firearm suicide rate is higher than in urban areas. Moreover, as the firearm related suicide rate increased, so did the overall death rate by suicide. The researchers concluded that if a suicidal person does not have access to a firearm, there is no evidence that another method will be used, at least not one as lethal as a firearm." Interesting. The 21-yr old I mentioned above also enjoyed killing - or hunting, rather - for sport. Like most of his family and friends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Ebbie Date: 17 Dec 05 - 03:38 PM In Juneau some years ago a man left a suicide note in his apartment before he went out to throw himself off a bridge. He was later found dead in his apartment from hanging, his wet clothes in a heap nearby. Alaskan ocean waters are cold. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:22 PM Carol...and others..I have NEVER doubted that people have the 'experiences' that they refer to. I do not even suggest that I am discussing all this with folks who make up stuff.... I merely reserve judgement on the ultimate cause of these experiences. I know half a dozen possible ways in which 'unusual' experiences can happen that do not require mystical, metaphorical or metaphysical explanations. I, myself, have had for example, vivid dreams that made me wonder why those elements got all mixed up in my subconcious. The human brain/mind is complex beyond anything we have learned to sort out yet, and new stuff is being discovered everyday. Those of us who do NOT have 'spiritual' or other 'private' experiences...(memories of past lives, encounters with ghosts, OOB happenings, precognition, and other paranormal revelations) may perhaps be forgiven if we scratch our heads at some of the reports and look for other possible explanations for our friends' reports of events which we poor "unconnected" ones are missing! ☺ I am willing to learn and be educated, when & if that is possible, but elaborate stories and revelations which are preceded by "...I believe that..." are not exactly what I find convincing...(I know, I know...YOUR beliefs do not depend on whether *I* am convinced. I have no notion that anyone is going to suddenly doubt their cherished beliefs because ol' Bill typed some "but look here" stuff.) ....but maybe on occasion someone will take some extra effort and look a bit deeper into it all...and maybe we'll ALL learn more because they do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:26 PM "Only when the form grows clear to you, will the spirit become so too." -- Robert Schumann, Advice to Young Musicians (1848) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Peace Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:30 PM "I must confess that a man is guilty of unpardonable arrogance who concludes, because an argument has escaped his own investigation, that therefore it does not really exist. I must also confess that, though all the learned, for several ages, should have employed themselves in fruitless search upon any subject, it may still, perhaps, be rash to conclude positively that the subject must, therefore, pass all human comprehension." (David Hume, 1737) and/or "... the senses alone are not implicitly to be depended on; we must correct their evidence by reason, and by considerations, derived from the nature of the medium, the distance of the object, and the disposition of the organ, in order to render them, within their sphere, the proper criteria of truth and falsehood." (David Hume, 1737) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:39 PM Daylia, I think your point about guns is well taken. People commit suicide because they cannot bear the pain they are experiencing (either emotional or physical pain, usually emotional, sometimes both). Given that most suicide methods carry the risk of further pain, they are not easy to contemplate. There's taking pills, of course, but what if the dosage isn't right and you simply wake up in misery in the hospital? More pain. Shooting oneself appears to be the surest way of a QUICK exit, with no physical pain. Jumping off a tall building involves the terror during the fall. Nobody wants that. Drowning does not appear very inviting. Even less so does hanging. It's no surprise to me that people who have a gun handy are somewhat more likely than not to use it if they want to "check out". Since I feel virtually certain that consciousness survives death, I do not much like the idea of shooting myself, and then having to deal with all the repercussions in Spirit and on other people. It's a miserable business. Damn depressing. No easy way out whatsoever. It's enough to make a person think of doing away with himself! Hmmm. Seem to have come full circle here, and ended up at a dead stop. I figure if I did not believe in an afterlife, I would be far more inclined to commit suicide in difficult times. It would be a handy escape, you see. If you cannot escape, then what's the use of just accumulating more bad karma? Bill - too bad we don't live in the same town. We could talk over coffee and trade books. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Ebbie Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:49 PM Little Hawk, come to the next Getaway. I will find a little corner somewhere where you and Bill can exchange some thoughts- if you'll let me, I will be there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: MASH4077 Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:24 PM It's almost a month now since I posted a.k.a 'emotionally screwed'. well I didn't do it and the method that I finally decided on...when I have full access to several guns.... pills! ..the old 'overdose, was the method I decided on.... with guns, there could always be the chance of survival, but maimed or incapacitated.. and I sure as hell wouldn't want that, plus it's messy for the people who have to come clean up.. anyway up , I didn't , pulled myself up by my bootstraps and since found out why I had been treated like I had by that person... turns out they had even bigger problems than me................ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:26 PM Good communication can solve a lot of problems, can't it? I'm glad to hear you made it back into the daylight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: CarolC Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM I know half a dozen possible ways in which 'unusual' experiences can happen that do not require mystical, metaphorical or metaphysical explanations. Yes, I realize this. Your explanations are some of the possible "ultimate cause(s) of these experiences". As are the things others of us have described. Obviously you don't have to accept what others regard as being ultimate causes of anything. Personally, I use the word "believe" as a preface to my descriptions of what I consider to be "reality" because "I believe" that none of us can really prove anything. Not even that we, in fact, exist at all. So as far as I'm concerned, everything we hold to be "real" is based on belief. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Rapparee Date: 17 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM Great, MASH4077! That's wonderful. Daylia, you could have simply put your head in a plastic bag and drifted away in CO2 narcosis. Take a couple sleeping pills or a couple stiff drinks first to dull the ol' reflexes.... Yes, access to a fairly certain way of killing oneself would suggest that that method would be the most common one. Ready access to active volcanoes made jumping into them a prefered method in Japan for a while. Those who seek death will find it. There are too many cases, documented cases, of people who will themselves to die, including at least one case I personally know of. I deplore the fact that some people feel so trapped that death is for them the only escape. Even more I deplore the further destruction such leaves behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:01 PM Peace...in the 'spirit' of the season Bah! Hume-bug! Yep, Little Hawk...if it were easier to visit, we could probably enjoy some chats! (But at the Getaway, Amos was there, and we spent...oh...all of 45 seconds referring to our 'discussions', and then it was off to the music *grin*) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Peace Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:05 PM Good one, Bill. Have a great season yourself. Love your posts, your thinking and your writing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: bobad Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:07 PM Ditto what Peace said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:25 PM By the way...there is a fascinating little paragraph in the notes at the bottom of a page in one of Humes works...I wish I could remember exactly where. He has been going on about his theories and the solipstic nature of his philosophy, when he sort of says as an aside (paraphrased)..." ...though I have thoroughly examined all my logic and find it unassailable and beyond refute, I must admit that sometimes the implications of it become too much, and I have to quit thinking about it and clear my head by treating the world as if it WERE real and physical...etc..." I will see if I have the original text book and post what Hume admitted about his own concepts... What we learned in class was that Hume WAS very, very methodical and VERY hard to argue with within the confines of his own system. His logic was internally sound, but he never seemed to fully appreciate the assumptions he had to make to set the premises he used. I once put up pictures of Hume and Kant on the bulletin board of our graduate seminar room, with quotations under each one ...and each quotation saying almost exactly the same thing... "It is universally accepted that, to explore philosophy, we must first begin with 'experience'...." ...and under the two quotations, I wrote "Well, so far, so good!" It got a few chuckles, as after that first paragraph, Hume & Kant headed off in totally different directions as they worked out what to DO with our examination of experience! I suspect that we are just wired to 'like' different ideas, just as we like different flavors of ice cream....and it's a real trick to learn how to stand to the side and examine our own patterns of reasoning and decision making...but it can be VERY enlightening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Bill D Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:28 PM (ooohh still awake, hmmm...couldn't even get my addendum in before you replied!..) and the same good wishes to you, my friends! Have good health and good cheer all thru the season...and the year to come! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Azizi Date: 18 Dec 05 - 12:20 AM I'm still in lurking mode [a periodic occurance for me], but I feel compelled to mention that although I'm finding this conversation intellectually interesting, for me, the intellectual considerations of death, and suicide, and reincarnaton, are far less important than the other sharing that has occurred in this thread. For the record I want to state that I recognize that it might hurt some to consider this topic and it might be painful to revisit some of the experiences that have been recounted. However, it is my hope that this discussion helps more than it hurts. I also want to echo Bill D's wishes to all here: "Have good health and good cheer all thru the season...and the year to come!" Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:29 AM Gee, Rapaire, those are quite the helpful suggestions! CO2 narcosis aided by a plastic bag? Didn't occur to me. Duh. I was deploring the fact I had no garage to sit in with the engine running instead. :-/ The alcohol/sleeping pills thing probably wouldn't have worked though. I'd have had to see a doctor to get the pills, and I was afraid to go. He/she would have asked way too many questions, maybe even thrown me in the loonie bin (a fate worse than death, in my book). Plus, my stomach usually rejects alcohol, quickly and violently, whether I want it to or not. Hmmm. Little Hawk is right. This IS damn depressing. Enough already! So to lighten things up a bit, I offer you all The Suicide Guide Found it yesterday. Seems to be geared toward the under-25 set (statistically, the age group most likely to suicide). It's well-informed, non-judgmental and witty too. For example, here's the author's thoughts on what awaits a person in the afterlife post-suicide (he gives both religious and atheistic versions): His [Dante's] picture of Hell is about what you'd expect, in that there are different levels of hellness depending on what kind of an asshole you were. If you're surprised that suicides wind up in Hell at all, you have to understand that the bitch about suicide is that under the Christian scheme, it qualifies as murder. Dante's Hell has the suicide cases living in a suburb of murdererville. This may sound unfair, but remember that murder isn't a horrible crime because of what it does to the murdered. That person is gone, what do they care? No, the crime is against the murdered person's Mom and brother and sister and best friend and all their coworkers and the people he or she owed money to. All of the people who depended on that person or would have depended on them in the future had they been allowed to live, all of the people who will feel the crushing waves of misery and loneliness due to their abrupt absence, they're the victims. And since suicide creates the same real and emotional devastation as homocide, the two are treated as the same crime. I know, it sucks. But remember you're not being punished for what you did to yourself, but what you did to those around you when you pulled the trigger. That's the thing, suicide has a way of only hurting the people who liked you. The people who hated you will forget your name in a month and, in fact, the evil bastards who tormented you and drove you to this will actually be a little happier with you gone. Suicide is like a bunch of your friends saving up money to buy you a car and then you taking the car and running them over with it. So be prepared. If whatever afterlife is coming involves justice of some kind, you'll still have to answer for the fact that you ended this life by emotionally devastating all of the people who have helped you up until now, while simultaneously having bailed out on all of the people you were supposed to have helped in your remaining decades of life. From the friend who would have needed you to talk them through a tough time a month from now to the sweet girl who you were supposed to marry six years from now, all will be waiting to kick your ass in the afterworld... Honestly, if I knew a teen struggling in this manner I'd try to get them to read it! :-D ANd notice too, he doesn't say "you are not being punished for what you did to yourself when you stuck your head in that plastic bag" or "when you swallowed those pills" but "when you pulled the trigger". As if it's a given that a gun would be used. Something to think about ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:00 AM And a few inspirational words from one of my kid's longtime musical idols, Mr. Hurt CoPain "Don't expect me to cry for all the reasons you had to die. If you die you're completely happy and your soul somewhere lives on. I'm not afraid of dying. Total peace after death, becoming someone else is the best hope I've got. Though the sun is gone, I have a light." -- Kurt Cobain |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:16 AM Oops, forgot my personal favourite: "Give me a Leonard Cohen afterworld So I can sigh eternally" -- Kurt Cobain (from "Pennyroyal Tea") |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Rapparee Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:06 AM Daylia, I made a rather thorough study of ways to do yourself in, effectively and rather painlessly. Pills and alcohol are only two CNS depressants; you could use others. I myself couldn't use carbon monoxide as I would get a VIOLENT headache -- I'm a human CO detector, dating back to a wonderful old car my mother had that was rear-ended by a cop and the exhaust damaged (we couldn't afford to fix it, so we drove with the windows open year-round). I'll stop with this -- the subject is depressing and gruesome to me. It's one of the problems with knowing a lot of things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: GUEST,Joe_F Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:56 PM I have read that a charitable form favo(u)red by British coroners in reporting inquests on suicides is "While the balance of his/her mind was temporarily disturbed". That clause might, of course, be prefixed pertinently to any other sentence in the person's biography. While the balance of my mind is temporarily disturbed, I am about to post this reflection. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Had enough? Drop dead. :|| |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: GUEST Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM Any room for us atheists in this thread? It has been pointed out to me that as an atheist I have put myself above God through my pride and vanity. On the contrary, I consider that people who believe in God(s) and reincarnation and heaven and all the other "afterlife" stuff are victims of their own vanity and cannot accept the simple fact that human existence is a single event ending conclusively at death. I am over 60 and still in reasonable health so I have no reason to consider suicide at this stage. Nevertheless, if mother nature or lady luck should decide to deal me a bad hand I would be ready to take the ultimate initiative with complete disregard for the opinions of lawyers, politicians and clergy. As for my family I would not wish to be a burden on them and I have asked them to ensure that I do not obtain any medical attention which would prolong my misery in some half-alive existence. I consider this a practical outlook and make no apologies to anyone for it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:54 PM Don't be silly, Joe F. You can't put yourself "above" something you don't think even exists! I don't regard atheists as people who are putting themselves above God. I just regard them as people who don't believe there's anything else except physical life, and that consciousness ends at death. Fine. I don't care. If you like to believe that, it's perfectly all right. If there is an afterlife, then you'll be pleasantly surprised. If there isn't, you'll never know if you were "right". LOL! In my case, if there is...I'll be happy to see it. If there isn't, I'll never know I was wrong. Sounds like a good deal to me. And who is asking you for an apology? Not me. Not God. There's no reason for you to apologize to anyone. You are NOT required to believe as others believe. We live in a free Universe, where belief is the business of the believer and of no one else whatsoever. That's my belief. As for vanity...every human ego (whether atheist or religious by nature) is the victim of its own vanity, unless it has achieved true selflessness and complete love for all people and other beings. How many have done that? A handful. You may have heard their names, you may not have. Some became saints and prophets, great teachers, and founders of great religions and philosophies. Others lived quietly, unnoticed, and died unknown to the masses of humanity around them. Vanity is like sweat and blood. It's everywhere. It is the common condition of man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:56 PM S'cuse me! That last post of mine was to Guest, not Guest, Joe F. Just plain Guest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:27 AM Atheists? As someone said, we don't have a special word for people who don't believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, so why a special word for people who don't swallow some other fairy tale? But as for methods, it must be time to quote one of my favourite poets: Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:44 AM Atheists who suicide thinking there's no afterlife would likely end up just as they expect. Their consciouness probably implodes into a sort of black hole of vegetative nothingfullness, possibly forming a quantum pocket of "signature" energy. THis quantum energy (the remnants of the atheists's disembodied and tortured mind and emotions) might then attract and conglomerate with other quantum pockets vibrating at the same low level. Like droplets of dirty oil on the surface of a pristine pool of eternal consciousness. What this might feel like is anyone's guess. So if you're the type that needs everything planned out and accounted for in advance, I suggest you're better off where you are right now. Especially if you're over 35 - do you really want to take the chance of Smelling Like Teen Spirit forever? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:55 AM PS -- on 2nd thought, maybe it's just like Hurt said after all .. "Where do bad folks go when they die? They don't go to heaven where the angels fly They go to the Lake of Fire and fry Won't see them again 'till the 4th of July I knew a lady who came from Duluth She got bit by a dog with a rabid tooth She went to her grave just a little too soon And she flew away howling on the yellow moon Where do bad folks go when they die? They don't go to heaven where the angels fly They go to the Lake of Fire and fry Won't see them again 'till the 4th of July Now the people cry and the people moan And they look for a dry place to call their home And try to find some place to rest their bones While the angels and the devils try to make them their own Where do bad folks go when they die? They don't go to heaven where the angels fly They go down to the Lake of Fire and fry Won't see them again 'till the 4th of July" -- "Lake of Fire", Nirvana |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: freda underhill Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:16 AM "Atheists who suicide thinking there's no afterlife would likely end up just as they expect. Their consciouness probably implodes into a sort of black hole of vegetative nothingfullness, possibly forming a quantum pocket of "signature" energy. THis quantum energy (the remnants of the atheists's disembodied and tortured mind and emotions) might then attract and conglomerate with other quantum pockets vibrating at the same low level. Like droplets of dirty oil on the surface of a pristine pool of eternal consciousness." what a lot of twaddle. God is an athiest. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:18 AM LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Paul Burke Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:22 AM I think *daylia* has let it slip there. The REAL reason you want to believe in a god is not so much to get spiritual survival yourself, but to get revenge on others who have crossed you in life- like Lazarus seeing Dives fry in hell. So all this talk about higher spirituality and so on simply boils down to "I'll tell Daddy and he'll spank you". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:29 AM But what if Daddy doesn't need to be told diddley-squat? What if Daddy Knows It All Already? Besides, what if we ARE Daddy -- each and every one?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Janie Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:11 AM Looks like this has turned into thoughts on life (or not) after death. Mystery...mystery....Thats what. We just don't know. I agree with Carol. We are all operating on belief when it comes to death. But whatever happens in death happens. I am comfortable with mystery. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Amos Date: 19 Dec 05 - 01:57 PM Forbes has forwarded a report on the connection between happy mind-sets and success in making positive things occur in life.. While it is usual to believe that having good fortune makes one happy, turns out the reverse is also true, something any competent metapsychologist knows, but which is now the conclusion of a great deal of scientific evidence. The relationship to the thread is self-evident: if you start yourself smiling, you will rapidly discover things worth smiling about. And the world will agree with you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 02:25 PM Right on, Amos. And it fits right in with a correction I need to make about the lyrics I posted; Kurt Cobain did not write "Lake of Fire" - it's by the "Meat Puppets", and Nirvana covered it. "THe Meat Puppets". How very uplifting. ;-) Kinda reminds me of the electorate on their way to the polls .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Amos Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:57 PM We are all Meat Puppetmasters; it is only when we forget that we become meat puppets, all unaware of how the strings are pulled. It is a bit like going to see a movie that you, yourself, wrote and produced, but somehow ending up stuck on the screen. :D A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 05 - 04:02 PM GUEST, I'd call you a vegetable, but vegetables do have some virtue. Virtue? You live in a strange world you make your own |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Divis Sweeney Date: 19 Dec 05 - 04:06 PM Having worked in mental health for the past twenty six years and dealt with more cases than I care to recall, it is a selfish act. Escape your own problems and leave others to deal with them. I still meet family of those who took their own lives and still they ask themselves questions, could I have done more ? Why did they not talk to me ? One thing I did find though, all of those who did it, never gave us warning. Those who threaten it rarely do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Ebbie Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:07 PM daylia, after you posted your smiley in response to freda U I have hopes that you posted with a grin the following: "Atheists who suicide thinking there's no afterlife would likely end up just as they expect. Their consciouness probably implodes into a sort of black hole of vegetative nothingfullness, possibly forming a quantum pocket of "signature" energy. THis quantum energy (the remnants of the atheists's disembodied and tortured mind and emotions) might then attract and conglomerate with other quantum pockets vibrating at the same low level. Like droplets of dirty oil on the surface of a pristine pool of eternal consciousness." . Were I an atheist, I'd be snarling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:32 PM Hmm, just to clarify --- I meant "droplets of dirty oil" as a metaphor for the "disembodied and tortured mind and emotions" of suicide cases, and certainly not for atheists themselves or atheism in general. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: *daylia* Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM PS I was assuming that suicide involves a tortured mind and emotions, whether the person is an atheist or an infantile believer in fairy tales. Perhaps I am wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: GUEST,member staying anon Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:14 PM Divis Sweeney said that those who threatened did not do it. O yes they do, a relative of mine threatened for over 4 months before suicide came,in the back of car with connection to exhaust pipe. Not very nice for those of us left to pick up the pieces. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Maryrrf Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM I would tend to believe in reincarnation and that suicide is not an escape - the pain or problems will have to be dealt with in this life or another. But the horror of what the suicide of a friend or loved one does to the living is incalculable. Today at work a colleage learned that a relative had committed suicide. He was found dead in a fetal position in the bathtub, by his 19 year old daughter. I can't stop thinking about that poor girl, what she must be feeling, the guilt, the horror, the self doubt. You can bet that scene of walking in and finding her father dead in the bathtub will haunt her Christmas seasons for the rest of her life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Maryrrf Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 PM I would tend to believe in reincarnation and that suicide is not an escape - the pain or problems will have to be dealt with in this life or another. But the horror of what the suicide of a friend or loved one does to the living is incalculable. Today at work a colleage learned that a relative had committed suicide. He was found dead in a fetal position in the bathtub, by his 19 year old daughter. I can't stop thinking about that poor girl, what she must be feeling, the guilt, the horror, the self doubt. You can bet that scene of walking in and finding her father dead in the bathtub will haunt her Christmas seasons for the rest of her life. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Azizi Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:48 PM I just found out that there are support groups for people who have had a loved one commit suicide. See this excerpt from one of those sites: "From within the circle, we talk about the past, I hear cries for fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters and friendships we thought would last. And we ache for the arms of a loved one of a time too short lived and of questions left more piercing than a knife. Oh, the questions come hauntingly, pressing your mind, when a loved one takes their own life. In the Circle I dare reach out my hand. In the Circle help me see there's a plan for me. And my story becomes yours as we struggle through the pain. In the Circle, we remember their names. We have daydreams of the future about how we thought it might be, with regrets of conversations that might have been the key. We are angry and confused as we struggle for our breath. Our hearts cry out in anger in what has been labeled a senseless death. We have good days and bad days, and without a trace, in the circle, tears and smiles meet as we gather strength together. Sons and daughters, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters and friendships felt deep in our souls, memories and moments left clinging to us, and questions of how to let go." -snip- Source: Survivors of Suicide That site also has a hyperlink for persons who are considering suicide. I sincerely hope that resources such as that site are helpful. Positive vibrations, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts About Suicide From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:17 AM You selfish lot! Some bugger is unhappy enough to kill themselves, and all you can think of is "Why did they make ME feel so unhappy?" All this empathy- with yourselves. You really like to set yourselves up as the spiritually aware, caring, loving ones, but can't apply it to someone who needed it. It's just another cover for self- absorption. |
