BS: wine

Subject: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:01 PM

Since most other things have been covered here I just wanted to spend a bit of time discussing wine. 10 years ago I was an avid beer drinker. I couldn't stand the taste of wine. I thought chardonney tasted like rubbing alcohol that had soaked in sawdust for a couple years. Red wine was even more vile.

I have to admit I started enjoying wine with white zinfandel ( I know it is yuppie and girlish, but facts are facts.) Someone told me to try Rieslings which I enjoyed for a year or so greatly moving to drier and drier ones. I have since changed to Pinot Grigios, White Burgundy, CHardonney, many other different European wines that I continue to enjoy.( although I still think saugignon blanc tastes like cat pee) I have finally made the jump to red wine enjoying the Pinot Noirs the best and since suggested by my mudcat wine Guru, Emma B, the Burgundy (Pinot Noir)

I continue to be intrigued by wine, but it is a love-hate relationship because the people who get "into" wine seem to fall in two different camps (much like folk music I guess) the people who want to share information with you because it is just so neat what they have found a particular wine, a particular vintage a particular whatever. The other group are the wine snobs, which I find to be very tiresome and a royal pain in the ass. How someone can act like they are superior to anyone else just because they have a different taste or a different bit of information escapes me. I

find the same zeal amongst the cheese afficionados as the wine enthusiasts and that is also very neat. Our resident wine folks that I have learned a lot from are EMMA B, MICCA and Giok. I would be interested in what others have to say about this special subject.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:17 PM

Muscatel. It's the best. Don't need a corkscrew. Or even a glass for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:18 PM

I was partial to Cold Bear, Ripple, and Boone's Farm.

That was quite some time ago.

These days my tastes have changed. Now I'm into Bartles & James.


(Seriously, I have some very nice wines in my cupboard, from states that include Missouri, Virginia, Utah, Idaho, and Bordeaux.)

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:19 PM

PS

It has a moderately fine nose and good legs. However, it stains rugs, shirts and walls. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:20 PM

I live in the Wine Country of Northern California (Sonoma County, next to posher Napa County) and have been tasting lots of the local offerings for the last 20 years. It takes a while to develop the palate and appreciate the subtle differences between all the varietals, growing regions, and winemaking techniques.

While I enjoy a white now and then (mostly with seafood dinners), I'm big into cabernet and pinot noir, and an occasional zinfandel, syrah or merlot.

Trouble is, as the palate develops, it gets harder and harder to find affordable bottles I enjoy drinking. The good wines tend to be pricey, especially pinot noir. That said, I recommend Trader Joe's as a good source for low-priced but drinkable wines - you just have to taste a number of them and find out what you like.

...and the wine is liquid poetry. Robert Louis Stevenson

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:20 PM

I also have a rather large bottle of our family appellation, bottled a few years ago by my brother and the last (to date) of the family's oenelogical efforts: La Bonne Merde.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:21 PM

Bruce and Rap, you boys need to eat some cheetos with these selections to bring out the full potential.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:22 PM

So's ya can talk about it. Muscatel is SO exclusive it isn't even mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:24 PM

And use Screech to cleanse one's palate between gulps.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:26 PM

French wine in general is overpriced ! AND not up to the quality Price for Price , with most of the wines from the New World . Even some of the Californians are drinkable !

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:27 PM

MIchael, I agree and the good California wines are getting very pricye. I know the Cabs from Napa and Sonoma are pretty much unbeatable but I find the Willamette Valley Pinot NOirs especially Van Duzier Estates to be a darn good American Pinot Noir.

I also found an excellent Chardonney from North Carolina called Shelton Vinyards as well as possibly the best Riesling I have ever tasted from Michigan Grand Travers Chataux where they use the entire grape pod and it is quite outstanding.

My prediction is that in the next few years we will all be seeing the NOrth Carolina wines giving the NApa and Sonoma wines some honest competition. THey have a very favorable climate for making some excellent wine up in Wester North Carolina.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:29 PM

Terry I have had some English wine on BA flights to London and I can honestly say they are wet.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:30 PM

why did I start this subject when the only ones lurking about in the dark alleys are the juvenile delinquents?

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:30 PM

For those of you really into wine, for real, here's a neat site.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:38 PM

Cabin Fever! Hazlitt's winery in NY. A lovely, fruity blush.

Wine-- I'm for it, in moderation and when it improves good food and/or good....

Anyway, I'm for it!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:45 PM

exactly Wysiwig, I enjoy it way more than I have ever enjoyed other alcoholic drinks but it is not pleasent to have too much as it really gives you a hangover. I find that even one beer now makes me feel unpleasently full. A glass or 2 of wine though is so delightful

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:46 PM

I've drunk -- and even enjoyed! -- English wines.

One of my favorites is a nice Green Hungarian (wine). Idaho wines are quite nice, and -- get this! -- they are even making VODKA in Idaho! Moreover, it's pretty good vodka.

To creep the thread even more, a boutique distillery is scheduled to open next year in...Salt Lake City, Utah.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:49 PM

I have no doubt that Idaho should be able to make a helluva vodka

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:50 PM

But still , for an entire evening , especially involving Music , a decent beer takes a lot of beating !

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:50 PM

Speaking of Hungarian wine, (well this is a creep because it is not HJungary but Croatia) we were staying in an Agrotursmo in Croatia and the folks went to their cellar, brou8ght out a bottle that they had made from their own grapes and it was nothing short of outstanding!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:51 PM

You are right, Terry! It just seems right!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:39 PM

I came upon wines rather late, only about 35 years ago. Haven't had even one beer for 4 or 5 years. Like JimmyT, I gradually discovered that dry red wines are much tastier than the sweeter ones. Which is why, I suppose, that I rarely have a white wine. Is there such a thing as a dry white? Or rose- I've had White Zinfandel, kind of by accident, and I suspect that comes under the heading of a rose. As JimmyT said, it was wet. And flavored.

I don't care much for burgundy and I'm not sure why. It doesn't seem to have the 'bottom' or the 'heft' that a Cabernet Sauvignon has so generally I stick to the Cab. Or sometimes Merlot. (I've even had them blended together. But recently I had a Cabernet/Merlot blend and I didn't care for it at all. It seemed neither fish nor fowl, so to speak.) Shiraz to me seems a little rawer, a little sharper, not as silky.

Have you ever had the experience in a restaurant of having a glass or two of a wine you enjoyed and suddenly discovered with the next glass that they had brought a different kind? Unmistakable. I don't know if it was only because it was a newly opened bottle, as they claimed, or if it was a different wine altogether, as I thought. And think.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: LilyFestre
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:40 PM

I live near the Finger Lakes Region of NY State and because of this, I have had the opportunity to go on wine tasting adventures with some of my friends. The first time I went I thought it was going to be a very boring and snobbish affair but (quite happily) I was mistaken. I am relatively new to the world of wine but I've been told that the best wines in the world are the ones that you like! :) Here are some of my favorites...all from New York Finger Lakes region:

Fulkersons: Matinee and Red Zepplin
Hazlitts: Red Cat
Leidenfrost: Log Cabin White
Bellwether Hard Cider Company: Cherry Street (*one of my favorites*)
Red Newt: Red Newt White

And last but far from least, my absolute favorite winery and wines are from Bagleys/Poplar Ridge: Queen of Diamonds, One Eyed Cat and Cayuga White.

These wines, with the exception of Bellwether Hard Cider Company, are located along the sides of Seneca Lake. We seem to like these the best. I highly, HIGHLY recommend a visit to Bagley's/Poplar Ridge in Homer, NY for an unpretensious, wonderful time. The last time my husband and I stopped in, the owner was on hand to chat with, a fire was going in the woodstove, a pot of gumbo was simmering on top and 2 chocolate labs were napping nearby. The owner, dressed in a flannel shirt and overalls invited us to help ourselves to the gumbo. We had a wonderful afternoon overlooking the snowy vineyard and lake enjoying some amazing wines and the best gumbo I've ever had in my life! It's not a fancy place but you'll not find a better bottle of wine in the area!

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:49 PM

nice story Michelle!

Ebbie I know what you are saying about the Burgundies but I think the good ones are positively divine. THe WIllamet Valley Pinot Noirs may be the best in AMerica

Yes, you can find very very dry white wines. not tannic, but dry as a bone

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: freightdawg
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:49 PM

While it might be surprising to some, the ol' 'dawg has a mighty fine sense of taste. I prefer the blush wines, the ones best served chilled. I also like the taste of a good merlot with some prime rib. There are some award winning vineyards in west Texas, and even some in New Mexico as well - amazing but true. Another drink that is wonderful with a plate of zesty New Mexican chile is Sangria, a very fruity drink that (I suppose) could be considered a wine, although I am pretty sure it is a blend of some kind. (Okay, I have good taste, but I am clearly not an expert!)

Just make sure all imbibing is done in moderation. Drunks are killing innocent drivers and passengers at a nauseating rate here in NM. No one has the right to a good time if it involves the ending of another life.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: number 6
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:55 PM

White Graves from the Bordeaux region is my favourite. There used to be a label called Johnson Graves but it appears not to be found anymore ... shame, as it was an excellent wine.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 11:04 PM

I agree about avoiding the snob factor. I once had a snobbish French wine that was oh-so-highly praised by a "connoisseur", and it tasted like I was sucking on the tailpipe of a bus. The word I would use to describe that wine is "trashy". (This is not an indictment of French wines generally, just that particular one.)

My favorite wines are the ones with interesting combinations of taste, aftertaste, and feeling on the tongue (astringency, etc.), and no missing notes. I imagine there's technical words for what I just described, but I don't know what they are.

One thing I have learned about the kinds of wines I like though. I find that they taste much better at room temperature than chilled (with the exception of sparkling wines).

I used to wonder about the kinds of words people used to describe wines before I started enjoying them at room temperature. They used to sound pretentious to me. Now I find myself using descriptive phrases that surprise me. For instance, I recently tried a Malbec Rose (organic), from Argentina (about $8.00 for 750 ml). It's pretty bland and not very interesting cold, but at room temperature it has a lot of character and, I find, even a sense of humor. It's not particularly sweet, just the tiniest little bit of sweetness, but it feels very playful on the tongue. It's a bit astringent, with a little touch of tartness, just enough bite to make it interesting, and a little bit of burn in the aftertaste. The flavor's very difficult to describe. A little smokier than I would expect from a rose, it's fairly well layered with no missing notes, and it would go well with creamy cheeses and slightly sweet breads.

See what I mean? I can't believe I just said all of that, but it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:20 AM

Carol, I know exactly what you mean. I think that in the process of trying to describe something so elusive, phrases like that just pop out. Has nothing to do with 'snobbery', has everything to do with honesty.

'Roundness' is another phrase that comes to my mind in connection with some wines- it goes along with full bodiedness, I suppose, but it's more like saying there is nothing lacking.


JimmyT, the Willamette Valley is my home region. About the first vineyard that was planted there was at Amity, my hometowm. (I always say that McMinnville is my hometown but that's only because Mac is bigger and only 7 miles away.) Lots of vineyards in the area now.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:46 AM

I have a weird way of finding good wines. I look for a pretty label or one that makes me smile. That way I discoverd the Primativo with the little green devil on the label before Sainsbury's featured it and it shot up in price... It is a wonderful wine and very smooth.

I also found 'Fat Bastard' chardonnay that way, which was so amusing I kept the bottle - the contents were very amusing too, made I laugh for ages til I fell off the chair.

I bought a red wine in Calais because the bottle is a strange shape. Turns out that the wine is a strange shape too, but very tasty. It's now available here, in the same strange shape bottle. I've got the perfect glass for drinking it from - that's a strange shape too.

I was recently introduced to a Spanish red called 'Baltazar' which is very VERY good but I'm unlikely to find it in Tescos.....

Basically, if you like the taste, it's a good bottle. If it makes your mouth/eyes/arse pucker or takes the enamel off your teeth, don't drink it regardless of what others tell you. It's your tastebuds that are being excercised, they have rights too!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:08 AM

"I find that they taste much better at room temperature than chilled "

Well, that's how they were originally supposed to be served - at European room temperature - about 20-25 deg C. You only need to chill a bad wine, cause if the taste is lousy, it helps kill the taste.


God knows how wines made outside Europ are supposed to be served...

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:40 AM

YES PLEASE. KEEP IT COMING!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:34 AM

a few of my favourite quotations :-

"From wine what sudden friendship springs"
John Gay "The Squire and his Cat"

"Wine makes old wives wenches"
John Clarke 17th century

Drink wine in Winter for cold, and in Summer for heat
- old proverb

It is well to remember that there are five reasons for drinking:
the arrival of a friend; one's present or future thirst; the excellence of the wine; or any other reason.
- Latin saying

Good wine ruins the purse; bad wine ruins the stomach.
- Spanish proverb

The best use of bad wine is to drive away unwanted relations
- French proverb

"Burgundy was the winiest wine, the central, essential, and typical wine, the sould and greatest common measure of all the kindly wines of the earth."
Charles Edward Montague
"Judith"

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:42 AM

Believe it or not, my doctor said a glass of red wine every night is beneficial, cholesterol wise. I like Sangria but being on low carbs, I cannot have any sweet wine so I drink Burgundy mixed with Fresca.

It certainly makes one mellow out after a stressful day and my cholestrol is 161 and going down.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:12 AM

My sangria recipe:

1/3 part port or sherry
1/3 part red wine
1/3 part lemonade or orange juice, or a mix of the two

add 2 cans John West strawberries

make heaps, (3 or 4 jugs) and as the evening goes on, top them up with lemonade..

yum.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Micca
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:15 AM

as was once said about a certain lady of my acquaintance "in Vino, Veri-tasty"

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:42 AM

Ah yes. I can recommend freda's sangria!!

By the way, nobody has mentioned Australian wines. The wines from the Hunter Valley and South Australia in particular are as good or better than you would get anywhere - and very reasonably priced. Jamiesons Run Coonawarra is lovely. I am a red wine person mainly - love a good Cab Sav or a Shiraz, but also like a good Chardonnay, and we make 'em very tasty in this neck of the woods!

They are so good that my brother in Paris always asks me to bring a couple of bottles of the better reds with me when I visit. There was an Eileen Hardy I took last time that was BEEEE-UTIFULLL!

Do I dare add The Wine Song here? I'll think on it over some of the Shiraz I took home from freda's a couple of nights ago.....

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:16 AM

I can second the recommendation for Australian wines, Monty Python notwithstanding. I'm also surprised that nobody has mentioned Oregon wines. Could it be the best-kept secret in the wine world?

Oh jeez, now I've gone and let the cat out of the bag. Now the prices will go up and I won't be able to afford the stuff any more.

mutter mutter, grumble grumble

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:23 AM

If all be true that I do think
There are five reasons why we drink:
Good food, good wine, or being dry,
Or lest we should be, by and by,
Or any other reason why.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:30 AM

There are many good reasons for drinking
And another just entered my head
If a fellow cant drink while he's living
How the Hell can he drink when he's dead

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:38 AM

I avoid red wines that have won prizes - I know I won't like them because the judges generally give gold medals to oaked wine. Wine makers who know this then oak their best wines in the hope of winning prizes. It seems to be a vicious circle.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: RangerSteve
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:53 AM

I'm partial to wines from places that aren't usually known for wines. There are a lot of good wineries in the Delaware Valley area in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. My favorite is the Four Sisters Winery in Belvedere, Warren County, NJ. Their Niagara is wonderful. Their cherry wine is not bad either and the port is great. There's a place in South Jersey called Tomasello Winery that makes a great cranberry wine, too.

As far as memorable labels go, however, I nominate Frontier Red, from the Fess Parker Winery in CA. It has a picture of Fess dressed up in his Davy Crockett outfit on the label, looking very noble. The wine wasn't bad either.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST,Charmion at work
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:00 AM

Ontario wine is darned good, too. Ontario used to be noted for porch-climber swill that an ethical cook wouldn't even put into the gravy, but during the 1970s the province was invaded by a bunch of Middle European winemakers who transformed the industry.

Inniskillin, the first Ontario producer of drinkable wine, began making "late harvest" wines (Spaetlese) and icewine (Eiswein) in the mid-1980s, and now we have a real "wine region" down there in the Niagara peninsula and a whole whack of seriously good producers. British Columbia also turns out truly excellent stuff.

Now you can stick entirely to Canadian wines and drink far too well from one end of the year to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:13 AM

Beware any wine that is 'fortified'. Once had some St Geroge's. That was the name of it. Just St George's--it didn't say St George's WHAT. A fortified wine that was available in Quebec. In those days a gallon (160 oz) went for about $1.55. Stuff damned near killed six or seven musicians. Gave one of 'em the shakes for two days. The rest of us got off with a day and a half. We found out how he slew the dragon.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: number 6
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:21 AM

Geeez Peace .... sounds like this hooch was made in a still out in the back woods somewhere. Bad stuff.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:23 AM

It was OK considerin' what else we had with it. Using alcool as a mix may have set the stuff off.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM

Well, I know I've posted this before - more than once - but still, it really belongs here on this thread, so I will. It's a funny song, but it doesn't actually reflect the reason why I drink wine. I drink it for the taste. I don't enjoy the feeling of being really drunk, and it doesn't help that I seem to get the hangover on the same day. Besides, I have to drive. Anyway, for what it's worth...


THE WINE SONG

by Grant Baynham   

There are those who like their wine
Because it adds sophistication
To that hearty meal they're serving to their friends.
And there are those who like their wine
Because it helps in the creation
Of that party feel on which so much depends.
And there are those who'd like their wine
To come from eastward-facing chateaux
On the plateaux of Lorraine and all that bunk
But their motives are not mine
And I like lots and lots of wine
And I like it 'cos it makes me drunk.

There are those who take a glass
Because it helps them to relax
They find it helps their social manner to improve
Well, that's a jolly useful scheme
Which I have taken to its logical extreme:
I sometimes get so well-relaxed I can't move
And there's another kind of fellow
Drinks champagne to make him mellow
And he swears by Cliquot, Bollinger and Brut
Well, I tried some Brut meself
I found it on the bathroom shelf
And he was right: it got me mellow as a newt.

You can judge your wine by the quality of the vine,
Its colour and bouquet and all that junk.
But it all comes back to the falling over factor
And the fact that it gets you drunk.

There are those who like to think
That it's important what you drink
They haven't got an inkling what it's all about
They spend their evenings wasting
Decent drinking time by tasting
Drops of this and that, then spitting it all out.
They pass along the tables
Strewth, they even read the labels
Muttering things like, "What a shame
The cork has shrunk"
Or "fruity nose" or "too much tannin"
When they ought to get a man in
Who appreciates the chance to get drunk.


They waste their time describing
What they ought to be imbibing
Which is wine of course, although you'd never think it.
'Cos they use words like "young but promising, "
"Precocious," "full of fun";
You'd think they were going to adopt the stuff
Not drink it.
And at a meal these silly asses
Have a row of empty glasses
A different wine with every dish they eat.
Me, I mix whatever's handy
In a stiff, all-purpose shandy
Which goes very nice with fish or Shredded Wheat.

You can judge your wine by the quality of the vine
Its colour and bouquet and all that junk
But it all comes back to the falling over factor
And the fact that it gets you drunk

And there are those who take delight
Pronouncing all the labels right
They roll their r's and do those German glottals.
Me, I couldn't give a monkey's
'Cos the stuff for getting drunk is
On the inside not the outside of the bottles
So if you have a cheese and wine
Invite your friendly Philistine
Call me drunkard, call me sot
Or call me wino. What do I know?
You'll find me in the kitchen
I'll be giggerlin' and twitchin'
Having a sup and throwing up
Across your lino

You can judge your wine by the quality of the vine
Its colour and bouquet, if you insist.
But it all comes back to the falling over factor
And the fact that it gets you
Misty-eyed and mellow, gets you
Maudlin, mawkish, miserable and PISSED!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:49 AM

jeffp, I mentioned the WIllamette Valley Pinot Noir. That is an Oregon wine. Their Pinot Gris is also excellent. Washington state has some excellent wine also.

CarolC   Terrific discriptive writing. Forever now I will remember notes missing in wine. It is a perefect way of describing.

Emma, Great quotes!

I also love many of the AUstralian and New Zealand wined. The NEw Zealand people have also pioneered the screw cap on the Riesling which seems to work well for wine that will be drunk in a year or so.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:04 AM

Last week on the Diane Rehm show she interviewed Robert Parker and he has a lot of good information about wines. You can listen to it via streaming audio.

It was through listening to a few programs like this that got me interested in trying different wines. I used to have a bottle of something red or white in the door of the fridge forever and occasionally tip some into some dish I was cooking, but have since learned a couple of things. Once you open a bottle, you should use it within about a week. Don't buy the larger bottle to save money if it isn't going to be consumed in that time because as it gets older it doesn't taste as good.

I have sampled various types of wines over the last few years, and partly out of stubborn irritation at the Bush administration's rejection of things French (remember that?) I started exploring French wines and have expanded my search to the continent.

A friend of mine is from the Netherlands, and while bemoaning the lack of 'papers' on California and other American wines, explained that many European wines have credentials guaranteeing that their grapes come from the specific place they claim. The French version of this is "Appellation Contrôlée." You'll see this on good French, German, Spanish, and Italian wines at least (my area of inquiry so far). There are wines from those countries that don't make that claim, thus you don't know where their grapes come from and you can make assumptions (accurate or not) about the production of that wine.

You can get very nice table wines in the $5 to $10 range. Many are a pure play with a single type of grape, others are blended from several local grapes. For example, there is a nice little French wine in a bottle with a screw cap (and they're all going to go that direction soon--their bottles pre-2003 still have corks) is called La Vieille Ferme that is a blend of three grapes from that particular area (I don't have a label handy to tell you which and where). Others are a single type of grape and they're grown in the valley they claim. Each year's grapes are going to be a little different, but the overall character of the wine is going to be similar because of the local and elements that go into it.

I love some of the German white wines, and prefer the bit drier "Kabinett" versus some of the sweeter ones. First time I had one of these with some grilled Copper River salmon it knocked my socks off, and I'm convinced that wine can really torque up the quality and enjoyment of an already good meal. For the red wines I tend to go to the French and Italian and Spanish, though I'm sure they also have good white wines.

I can't afford expensive wines, but that doesn't mean I must drink the fortified junk that is corralled in the wino corner of the liquor store. Read the lables, make note of the wines (and years) you like and come back to them a couple of times before adding them to your list of favorite wines.

I hope this helps!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:17 AM

What is a fortified wine?........

Port, Sherry, Madeira, Malaga, Tokay, Frontignan and Frontignac are all fortified wines. They also happen to be place names in Europe or names for wines from specific locations there so many of these names can't be used to describe an Australian made product. Muscat is the one exception and refers to the name of the grape it's made from. The muscat family of grapes includes Orange Muscat, Muscat Canelli and Muscat de Frontignan.

from

www.uncork.com.au/tidbits6.htm

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:19 AM

jimmyt,I must have missed that. The Willamette Valley Pinot Noir is indeed excellent. That is one of the brands I can get at our local (crawling distance) liquor store. I'll try anything from Oregon, except Chardonnay. Can't stand Chardonnay, no matter who makes it.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:29 AM

I really miss Mollie Pitcher Cannon Number 4 from the Western shore of Michigan. A great little wine, amusing and yet pretentious, well rounded and yet with an edge, hints of blackberry, citrus, muskrat, wild strawberries, gentle tannins, all overlaid with just a whiff of butyl mercaptan. Ah, for those olden days of yore, lounging under the summer moon while the waves and certain young ladies lapped on the shore....

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:45 AM

jeffp, that is exactly the way I felt about chardonney until I finally found out that much of the chardonney and certainly the calif chardonney is stored in oak until it takes up the flavor. ask about non-oaked chardonney I think much of it comes from AUstraila that makes a darn good cheap non-oaked chardonney and I bet you will change your mind! ALso Poilly Fuisse is a French predominately chardonney that you will probably like.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:45 AM

JennyO - despite my addiction to (and proselytizing for) French wines, and particularly Burgundy, I'm very fond of Jamiesons Run and, for real value and taste, there are some excellent Australian sparkling sham 'pagnes around I have a half case for Xmas!

"Here's to champagne, the drink divine
That makes us forget our troubles;
It's made of a dollar's worth of wine
And three dollar's worth of bubbles"
- Anon

I've never been quite the same since I was kissed by Oz Clarke!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:56 AM

Or the time a friend and me dug a pit for a septic tank for his father. A beautiful Spring day...two guys...two shovels, one pick...six bottles of (believe it or not) cellar-cool Chateau Neuf du Pape. The result was a hole about two feet deep and ten feet across, sort of like a bomb crater -- and two guys found later sipping wine on the river bank.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

So how often do you folks drink wine? We always have wine in the house but only drink a few glasses a month, if that. It's something special for us, not an everyday occassion....and we never drink it alone, ever.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

"sounds like this hooch was made in a still out in the back woods somewhere"

Hey I resent that comment, that fine wine happens to hail from my home town, that reknown wine making region of Lachine, Quebec. It happens to have had the well earned reputation of being the libation of choice for the areas discriminating rubbies and it's empty bottles could be found gracing many a discarded brown paper bag. To celebrate special events such as the winter carnival it was often mixed with alcool which was high octane pure, unaged alcohol, to create what was called Caribou, a fine winter warmer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/c1930-St-Georges-Vin-Rouge-Wine-Lachine-Quebec-Canada_W0QQitemZ6236991028QQcategoryZ1351QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Micca
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 12:25 PM

Charmion, the wines of Ontario are WELL worth a visit, unfortunately only very rarely available here in the UK,
Eiswein!!!! Oh Heaven!!!!!
and Henry of Pelham wines , esp. Baco Noir a DARK red wine of exciting flavour and depth.
My Ex FiL took me on a tour of the Niagra peninsula wineries (What a kind Man!!) and I had the opportunity to taste several very nice wines, Chateau de Charmes had an excellent Pinot Noir as well as some Class 1 whites their Reisling was amazing.
The Eiswein (according to the Winemaster at Chateau de Charmes)can ONLY be made and called Eiswein if the temperature falls below -5C and stays there for 3 successive days, (a FULL 72 hours) this means leaving the grapes on the vine into December then gathered and (still frozen) pressed, the ice removes water from the Grape juice so that the must(the grape extract that is actually fermented)is very concentrated in flavour and sugar so produces a complex and loooooong tasting wine with an (often) dry foretaste then a sweetish (depending on the original grape) middle aand often a drier finish. A good example will still be on your palate for 2 or three minutes after 1 sip!!! The Winemaster told us in one of their early years after the vinyard was set up the conditions were met at 6 pm Christmas Eve and EVERYONE on the Estate, including Office staff, and the Family turned to under lights to hand harvest the Grapes. this is why Eiswein can be EXPENSIVE maybe as much as $50-100 Canadian a half bottle!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM

Lilyfestre, I have a glass or sometimes 2 pretty much daily. I never have more than that but I honestly, although this seems silly, look forward to trying so many many wines in my life (maybe this is just a phase and a couple years from now I will not be so enthused) that I have my work cut out for me so it is my daily ritual after dinner or right before to pour a glass. I frequently am in mudchat and discuss with Emma B and Micca and Rumanci or Giok. THey have interests in wine also so we bore folks with this information! grin

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 01:21 PM

Michelle, I usually share a bottle of wine with dinner (and quite often put some of it into the cooking too!) so I'm always looking out for something that will perfectly compliment the food.
I don't have much experience of good American wine and most of the whites available over here are a little too sweet for my taste. I'm being tutored by jimmy however now!
I must concur with Micca that the best (and correspondingly expensive) eisweins come from Canada

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 01:37 PM

Canada eisweins are a dessert unto themselves. And well worth the expense at least once in a lifetime.

I don't have wine every day, that's for sure. I can only have the kind with no sulfites added or with the naturally occuring sulfites removed. So far, I have only been able to find these at Whole Foods Markets, the closest of which is about two and a half hours away from me. I get about four bottles three or four times a year, so I have to make them last. Sometimes I'll have several glasses in a week, and some weeks I don't have any at all. I do sometimes use them in cooking.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 03:10 PM

A few years back I told my wife that as a New Year's resolution I was going to have a glass of wine with dinner each day. Supposed to be good for the heart and all, you know.

So I laid in some quite drinkable box wine and started. Long about the end of February she asked me if I was ever going to finish that wine. I replied, sheepishly, that I'd pretty much forgotten about it.

She laughed and said, "You know, you'd make a lousy drunk. You forget to drink."

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 04:29 PM

I find eiswines to be incredibly sweet, too sweet for me.

Michelle

*I learned something new here....I thought it was ICEwine...

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Micca
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:21 PM

Lily, it Is ice wine, but since the Germans invented/discovered it they (wine buffs) tends to use the German mname Eiswein or wine I think maybe to keep it distinguishable from these awful ice beeers!!!
he conditions for producing real Eis wein in Germany and Austria are much rarer than in Niagra and so it is correspondingly even more expensive in Europe!!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:08 PM

I had a long and brilliant post that was both informative and thought provoking but it got lost is mudcat cyberland I will try to recompose my thoughts and add ASAP. I have had some Vouvrey that is excellent (normally too sweet) and Micca tells me that Chablis can be a terrific wine (FRENCH, NOT AMERICAN as it is pure crap by and large) Somehow our concept of Varietal wine (only one grape) is not espoused by many other nations. comments?

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:17 PM

Jimmy, I think your comment regarding varietals is inaccurate. Not quite sure if the American chablis observation is yours or Micca's but, likewise.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:44 PM

Chablis comment is Micca's but I have read that our American "Chablis" is obviously not Chablis at all and is generally plonk.

Varietals seems to be largely an AMerican concept that possibly has been espoused by AUstraila and New Zealand but France (except for Burgundy region) seems to believe in blends more than one grape variety.) I know that lots of Varietals come from Europe as well, the Nebbiolo grape in Italy and certainly Riesling and Gewurstraminer from the Rhine, but I guess what I am saying is that for an AMerican wine to be taken seriously it is not a blend as the great wines of France are predominately.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:47 PM

By the way, if you would like a great read consider ADVENTURES ON THE WINE ROUTE by Kermit Lynch. It is an older book 1988 I think but it is funny and insghtful and sort of like A YEAR IN PROVINCE with wine!   good read

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 11:13 PM

Jimmy, I find it quite amazing that an old Pedestrian like yourself has such, shall we say, refined tastes. Heck, shouldn't we be talkin 'bout Thunderbird (what's the word?), Mogan David, or Pagan Pink Ripple? Ah, heck with it. We just part-time Pedestrians after all.
There are actually some very fine wines produced in Missouri along the south shores of the Missouri River Valley. This is the home of the Norton grape, one of the few native American varieties. The St James Winery, about 60 miles west of St Louis, produces an excellent Norton. The Norton has much of the complex berry characteristics of a good Cabernet, with a bit of the hearty fullness of a Burgundy. As an interesting aside, most French Wines are in part a product of the Norton vine. When European vineyards were devastated by blight at the turn of the century, Norton root stock was grafted on to the existing plants because only the Norton was strong enough to resist the blight.
I am a red wine fan, and like white wines generally only when bubbley. I love Moet Chandon Brut more than I can afford to, and tend to stick with a good dry Spanish Cava. Actually, the 6.99 Cava sold at Trader Joe's is quite a solid performer.

Now Jimmy, I will make you this challenge. I think each of the Pedestrians should pack a choice bottle o' red to the next Getaway and we will have us a little tastin, what say?

LEJ

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: JennyO
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 09:21 AM

Rapaire, what a find! Chateau Neuf du Pape was one of the first French wines my brother introduced me to when he visited here from Paris. I still have the bottle. I've kept a few bottles like that as a souvenir. They bring back happy memories.

On the subject of fortified wines, I discovered a lovely one, on one of my French visits. It's called Pineau de Charentes, and is the nectar of the gods as far as I am concerned. It isn't even expensive over there, but in Australia the only place I could find one was from an importer in Melbourne, and it cost 5 times what I paid in France. Wasn't quite as nice as the ones I had tried in France either, although it was quite nice. Whenever my brother visits, he knows to bring some with him. He must be due for another visit soon. The cupboard is looking rather bare.

I forget to drink too, which I shouldn't, because I do believe in wine's beneficial properties. Trouble is, I generally do have to drink alone when I am home, as John doesn't drink. Bit of a shame in some ways, but I'm certainly not going to make him. Anyway, there are bonuses. Someone gave him a HUGE bottle of Grolsch beer today, and I'm going to be forced to drink it myself. It's a hard life......:-)

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:35 AM

Chateauneuf is not a wine I would drink today while I was digging a hole for a septic tank. Let's just say that my tastes in tasks has changed a wee bit in the last 40 or so years. These days I'd hire a backhoe and backhoer to dig the hole while I sat, watched, and sipped the wine -- assuming that I could afford such!!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM

Rapaire, the Chateauneuf will cost more than the Backhoe! Good deal Rap. That is one great story. I would still like to know how you acquired the wonderful wine! I am sure someone's private stock was depleted. A bit like my daughter's boyfriend, when given a fantastic cognac after dinner, some of the VSOP QRWPET whatever but lots of pedigreed initials and I think cost about $25 a shot, and he just threw it back instead of sipping it! I got a big kick out of that one! She has since parted company with the young man.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:56 PM

Lonesome EJ, I would definately NOT drink CHateauneauf De Pape while playing blues. I would have to switch to some Richardsons WIld Irish ROse at least until finishing up that genre.

It is sometimes a bit of a stretch to drink a decent wine in fol muisc, but my group are all wine drinkers. Our rehearsal consists of, before anyone even gets tuned, getting out the glasses and pouring three hefty glasses of Chardonney or Pinot Grigio. (One teetotaller has water)

Sometimes I slip in a pretty good bottle, $25 or so, but these guys are just as enamoured with a glass of Cavit or Yellowtail or Turning leaf as Macon Villages, so I refuse to cast pearls before swine anymore...damn, I am sounding like a wine snob. grin

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 01:22 PM

If you think the story's good, you should have heard what my friend's father had to say when he say his septic tank hole, the diggers, and the empties!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 02:37 PM

oh dear my unfortunate Americans cousins,I just picked up a bottle (ok it's 2004 :>( ) bottle od Chateauneuf-du-Pape today for £8 (special offer) to accompany the Xmas goose!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:37 PM

Corked wine is cheap here too, Emma grin

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jets
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:03 PM

The one thing that put me off during my brief visit to France in the middle 40,s was the total inablity to get a decent bottle of good imported wine.
I have found a good Merlot from Peru

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Micca
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 06:08 AM

The only problem I Have with Chateauneuf du Pape is a wine buyer once told me that 50% more Chateauneuf is sold every year than the region could POSSIBLY produce in the BEST possible year!!! so I tend to avoid what, for me is an indifferent, too young, Burgundy similarly with Crozes Hermitage, Too young and often indifferent, from not necessarily good years. Its a perrennial problem with wines,
1 just because it has a year on the label dont make it good,
2 Just because it is a High priced wine from a "name" dont make it good either
3 and, Beware of this one, Identical wines from the same vinyard, same year and even batch,sometines, of wines can taste different,
example I carefully bought what I thought was 3 Identical bottles of "Vin Nobile de Montepulciano"(a very nice Italian red that I would reccommend) for a dinner party for 10, ALL three tasted different, and that was even to the persons present who had little experience of wine!!! I opened the first 2 to let them Breathe and routinely tasted them(see below) and found there was a significant difference in taste, so I opened the 3rd one also and that was different too!!
The tasteing of the wine in a restaurant (should be by the person that ordered it)or at home by the Host is NOT just affectation, it is so that the Host can make sure the wine is OK before any of the Guests are poisoned,If you have ever tasted an "off" wine either corked or otherwise contaminated, you will, I assure you NEVER forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST, Jos
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 06:56 AM

There seem to be plenty of wines advertised as 'from a vineyard right next to ... [Chateauneuf du Pape/Nuit St George/etc.). This is no guarantee of a good wine, as Micca's post makes clear.

I have had wine poisoning, from wine bought by the glass in a bar - it was not nice.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 09:02 AM

I have tasted bad wine in a restaurant. The sommelier was summoned (!) and he agreed with me (well, hell, it tasted like leftover sewage). I understand that eventually the restaurant's entire stock of that brand and vintage were returned.

Problem with corks is that they're too hard to pull out and to hard to put back so you don't spill what's left in the bottle. If you've ever had to search for a corkscrew as your friends yell to "hurry up an git shome more o that wine over here!) and ended up just pushing the cork into the bottle, you understand. OR if you've tried to get wine stains out of the carpet and furniture and off the walls and ceiling after a party, you understand about the importance of screwtops.

Especially on gallon jugs.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Raptor
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM

I took a Essence Seminar at the Hildebrant winery and they used icewines It made a believer out of me!

I love Icewines and Late Harvest Vidals. The best yet was Coyotes Run Icewine From St. Davids near Niagra On the Lake!

There is a Icewine Festival in Niagra On The Lake in January. We should Do a Mudcat meet there!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:15 PM

We are having a little get together this evening for some fingerfoods, wine, and Christmas Carols. I decided to go against the grain a bit and have a selection of different wines, Chardonney, Pinot Grigio, Riesling, Graves, and Poully Fume' as well as Merlot, Cabernet and Pinot Noir, with three different sparkling wines, Spanish Cava, a French Champaigne as well as a German Riesling Champaigne. We are also going to have a selection of interesting cheeses that my daughter has gotten at a cheesemonger in Atlanta. I will let you know what the consensus is, and whether or not I am a bit hungover tomorrow!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:38 PM

I too am a wine lover and cheese lover too.

I loved the time I spent in Oregon and the two separate tours we did around the Willamette Valley. In particular I loved the Duckpond wines and those of Sokol-Blosser. I had the most expensive wine I have ever drunk in Duckpond which was a sweet white and was at that time - 1999 - around $50 a half bottle.

Currently my favourite wine "country" is Chile and it is rare to find a bad bottle. They do terrific whites and great reds. There is a lot of Carmenere grape, dark and plummy with blackcurrant notes as well.

35 Sur is great value for money especially the Sauvignon Blanc. The great reds also include a number of pinot noirs. I am I confess a varietal fan. The other good wines I have drunk from Chile are Concha y Toro - who have a great website - especially their Casillero de Diablo. Finally when talking about Chile, Montes Alpha are up market and have some very tasty wines.

May I also at the risk of being boring, mention Spain? Known for its Cava from Catalunya and Torres wines from the same region- there are some great wines from elsewhere in Spain.

Try the Albarino from the Rias Baixas area and its somewhat overwritten website - we shall have Albarino with the smoked salmon on Christmas lunch - and anything from Ribera del Duero. There is a lot of poor rioja around so I tend to avoid that.

Go for the area north of Barcelona for whites (Allela) and Valdepenas for reds. There is a wine which is very popular in Spain, fantastic value for money from a modern factory in Valdepenas called Vina Albali. I have been drinking this in Spain for years and is now widely available in the UK. Go for the Gran Reserva if you can get it. We shall have a bottle of that on Xmas day as well.

Ask me another!!

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 05:39 PM

great info Dave   I am not at all versed in Spanish wines but I have been told by several that the SPanish make some of the absolute best. I enjoy Chilean wine here in the states and they are great priced also

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 05:39 PM

Sorry,

That was me - I was not using my regular browser and thus came on as guest. I am not hiding my love of wine under guest that is for certain!

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 10:11 PM

I've got a fiftieth birthday coming up soon, and I decided to live dangerously and have some pink champagne to celebrate (being the milestone it is). I haven't been able to locate any champagnes that don't have sulfites, so I expect I won't be feeling too good the day after, but there you go.

I didn't want to invest a lot of money into it (since I'm allergic to it), but I wanted it to be festive. I ended up getting a bottle of Korbel Brut Rose (methode champenoise). Anyone know if it's drinkable?

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:09 PM

Folkiedave, while I was in Spain last Spring, I had several reds under the same bodega label, something like Alfonso III. These wines were available at Corte Ingles Supermarkets, and ranged from the "III" up to VII, and with prices and quality that increased as the roman numerals went up.
Any clue as to their identity?

I am the possessor of a bottle of true Amontillado from Bodegas Alvear in Montilla. This is wonderful, warm, nut-brown stuff, and Alvear is the originator, making it in the same huge earth-sunken ceramic tanks since the early 1800s, probably the same tanks that were decanted to provide the famous casque commemmorated by Poe in his story. Apart from the sherries, though, I haven't cared for Spanish whites...they all seem to derive from the sherry grape.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:28 AM

I am fairly sure that the Rioja would be Faustino. This certainly has "king" style names which go up in quality.

As far as the sherry is concerned in Spain I live in Andalucia where an ice cold fino with sea food tapas is lovely. And of course the solera method of making sherry means that some of that original wine from the original pressing should be in your latest bottle.

Certainly good white wines in Spain are hard to find. But not impossible. Try those from Rias Baixas and Allela I recommended in my first post. Especially the Albarino. (I should have said it rarely if ever comes at a low price by the way). These are from a much cooler and wetter climate.

In fact Spain has more hectares of wine under cultivation than anywhere in the world and the largest grape variety is Airen which makes it probably the most widely planted grape variety in the world - and yet hardly anyone has ever heard of it!! (It's bland tasting and used more in brandy production, though there is at least one varietal made from it).

There is also Txacoli (from the name you might guess this is made in the Basque country, and wine made from macabeo which is one of the cava grapes. I had a bottle of that once, blended with a touch of Pedro Ximenes which was fabulous. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name!!

Best regards

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Micca
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:11 AM

Indeed the Idols I have loved so long
Have done my Credit in Men's Eye much wrong:
Have drown'd my Honour in a shallow Cup,
And sold my Reputation for a Song

Indeed, indeed, Repentance oft before
I swore but was I sober when I swore?
And then and then came Spring, and Rose-in-hand
My thread-bare Penitence apieces tore.

And much as Wine has play'd the Infidel,
And robb'd me of my Robe of Honour--well,
I often wonder what the Vintners buy
One half so precious as the Goods they sell.
Omar Khyyam (trans Fitzgerald, Version 1)

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:31 AM

Why is it that British sherry importers produce something far too sweet (at least for my taste) and call it 'medium dry'?

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:38 AM

I cannot account for something called British sherry!! Urghh..... Didn't it used to be made from some sort of grape concentrate from Cyprus? In fact if it is real wine made in England then it is called English wine. "British" indicates concentrate........

And no longer exists, since 1996, it's one of those names like Parma Ham, Champagne, which is why the Spanish version made identically is called Cava, and now Melton Mowbray Pork Pies, since yesterday!!

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:58 AM

So I'll take that as a 'no'?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 11:11 AM

I don't mean 'British sherry', but Spanish sherry imported be British firms, such as Harveys. What they call 'medium dry' is little short of cough mixture.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 12:42 PM

Yipee! saw Chateau Muscar ('98) on sale today in my local supermarket - I've not seen any of this lovely Lebanese wine around for ages!

Topsie - if you like drier sherry try Manzanilla - my favourite

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Micca
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:27 PM

Emma, Or "Tio Pepe"

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

SRS -- your friend is mistaken bemoaning the lack of 'papers' on California and other American wines, explained that many European wines have credentials guaranteeing that their grapes come from the specific place they claim. The French version of this is "Appellation Contrôlée."

There are a large number of Appellations in California, and labeling is strictly regulated. If the label says "California", the grapes can be from anywhere in the state. If it says "Dry Creek" or "Central Coast", "Russian River" or "Alexander Valley", the grapes must be from that growing region.

There are also single-vineyard designations such as "Beckstoffer Vineryard" or "Hoot Owl Creek", which means that the grapes used all came from a specific plot of land. "Estate" wines use only grapes grown on the winery's own land.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM

MIchael, you are probaboy in a position to comment on the actual statistics, but Napa and Sonoma especially have changed from big machine picked commercial growers to very high end, carefully picked by hand and much higher qualaity wine than what was Napa or Sonoma in the 70s. A fairly small percentage of all California wine is from the NApa and Sonoma valleys and the vast quantity of Calif wine comes from the Central Valley where the wine is a much more modest price as well as quality. NOt to say there isn't lots of good wine in other areas, Mendicino, etc but that the big commercial companies that produce the mega volume are not Napa or Sonoma. Correct me if I am wrong, Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:40 PM

Don't forget that rootstock from the California vineyards saved the French wine industry.

And nobody's mentioned one of my favorite songs yet? For shame!

BOTTLE OF WINE
(Tom Paxton)

Ramblin' around this dirty old town
Singin' for nickels and dimes
Times getting rough I ain't got enough
To buy me a bottle of wine

Bottle of wine, fruit of the vine
When you gonna let me get sober
Leave me along, let me go home
I wann'a go back and start over

Little hotel, older than Hell
Cold and as dark as a mine
Blanket so thin, I lie there and grin
Buy me little bottle of wine

CHORUS

Aches in my head, bugs in my bed
Pants so old that they shine
Out on the street, tell the people I meet
Won'ch buy me a bottle of wine

CHORUS

Teacher must teach, and the preacher must preach
Miner must dig in the mine
I ride the rods, trusting in God
And hugging my bottle of wine

CHORUS

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM

jimmyt, you are not wrong in saying the vast quantity of Calif wine comes from the Central Valley and the big commercial companies that produce the mega volume are not Napa or Sonoma. It was, however, way back in 1976 that two Napa Valley wines won in a blind tasting in Paris over a slew of high-pedigree French wines (see story here.)

The point I was making to SRS was a different one, though. I was stressing that appellations and labeling are every bit as strictly controlee in California as in France, Italy etc.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:46 PM

Sorry, I screwed up the link in my previoust post. Here it is:

Judgement of Paris

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 09:57 PM

CENT! VIN!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM

I was just pointing out, Michael, that there is a vast difference between California as opposed to Napa or Sonoma, and this is part of the appelation control. I was not aware of the estates wine being from the property as you pointed out. THanks for the info. Even though this blind tasting was in 1976, at that time much of the Napa Valley was owned by the big machine companies producing a loto f plonk. Carneceros was still in sheep pasture and much of the rest was in apples as I remember. But now, the land is so valuable they sure don't run sheep there anymore! All of the Gallos and Almadens etc have moved on to cheaper property.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM

Ripple--chilled three degrees below room temperature.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:08 AM

I've been buying high end claret in bond for some time now as "a hedge for the future".

It came as something of a shock to realise that "the future" has actually arrived and is happening all around me, so I'm having to get on with drinking my stock.

My latest indulgence was a mixed case of 4 of the first growths (all except Latour) which won't be ready until about 2020 at the earliest - hope I make it!

cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:15 PM

But no Ripple, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: jimmyt
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:14 PM

I have had some horrifying incidents woth Ripple back in the 60s that I am still trying to forget!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:15 PM

I had some that I'm still tryin' to remember!

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:42 PM

OK fellas - indulge an ignorant Brit - what's "Ripple" - it's a raspberry sort of vanilla ice cream here!
Bet you've never had Yate's "Biddy" though !

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:47 PM

MMMM.......Biddy...........


A Thought on temperature. To serve wine at room temperature is not exxactly correct. The idea came in during the Victorian to indicate the correct temperature for red wine. Before central heating and insulation.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:51 PM

To continue....after a rather nice Shiraz from Oz......

A Master of Wine told me that we (British) serve our red wine too hot and our white wine too cold.

Certainly in Spain even quite good red wine is served a lot colder than here. On the othe hand they chill the bones out of white as well IMHO

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:59 PM

A Master of Wine I met on the Bowery introduced me to Ripple.

Imagine a wine made from the seventy-third pressing--then fortified with alcohol. Then bottled and sold at about $1.79 a gallon. That was Ripple. (Those facts may be a bit off, but not by much.)

Ripple (or Thunderbird) were the product of what is today a fairly respectable winery: Ernest and Julio Gallo.

Subject: RE: BS: wine
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:07 PM

Interesting read for those who like history.