BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 11:52 AM

They're still whining about Clinton. They never stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:00 PM

Carol, I never whine about Clinton. Who is?

I do remember as a Sales rep. being in many different places for lunch and hearing some of the most clever jokes regarding him. Some maybe not in the 'clever' catagory. I can still remember spilling a large portion of Lasagna in my lap from just overhearing one.

Aside from that, Clinton did not do a lot of harm (ignoring terriost attacks is an exception) as he did very little while in office.
As a purported man of high intellect, his was a waste. And that, perhaps, is/was a shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: DougR
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:10 PM

Amos: The Times is still the Gray Lady (in your opinion).

Bush won't be impeached. One does not always get what they wish for and this is an instance when that will be the case. He won't be impeached because he did not commit a impeachable act.

He and congressional leaders will get together and work out this this situation and you folks (if you are in touch with terrorists) will still have to worry about whether or not your phone lines are being tapped. IF you are not communicating with known terrorists, you have nothing to worry about. Play tennis or something.
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:26 PM

Doug R, I wonder if a lot of the people here think that the lack of attacks on the US in the past several years is just a coincidence?

While I am not exactly in favor of dentention without cause and imprisionment witout reason, there is still that coarse adage that implies "sacrifice a few to save many."

I occasionally wonder if the wiretapping has prevented a jetliner or two from straying away from their correct flight pattern.

By the way, if some innocent Quaker has been listened to in error, my apologies. That would fall under the "coarse adage" mentioned earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

'Now, would you advise me how my basic little opinion (based on fact) concerning the New York Times make me out to be an "ass"?'

I have no idea how Amos will answer this statement. However, it would be educational if you GUEST G would tell which papers or sites you get YOUR information from.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM

Impeachment Talk Appears in Media

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:46 PM

Freda, this simply politics at its very worst/best.
It is not an impeachable offense, otherwise, the Senate Democrats would have already instigated the process. I really think this type of politicizing will backfire on the Dems in general.
The Monica situation wasn't the best of times for the Repubs. While WJC was playing the cigar game, he wasn't causing any other problems.

Peace, everything I said about the NY Times came from the NY Times.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:50 PM

OK to that G, but my question was "which papers or sites you get YOUR information from."?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,G
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:53 PM

Well, now that I have taken the morning off, I must go out and do something constructive. (hopefully)

I guess we can still hope for the saying that is so lighly tossed around at times to come to fruition;

          "Peace on Earth, good will towards men/women."



(And what Tiny Tim said.)

Later.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:01 PM

Ya know, it's very strange watching Americans argue over whether or not a given President--in this case Bush--should or should not be impeached. To see people splitting hairs and honing knives so they can win an argument--well, it's strange. Folks: your country is being torn apart. Doesn't that mean anything to y'all? If you support Bush, fine. But don't you see what he's doing to the USA? Do you honestly trust that man and his advisors? Do you honestly think he has the best interests of average everyday Americans at the core of his decisions? Don't you think maybe he's just a bit too close to 'big business'? Have you given up making America great again?

America is no longer 'great'. Not the way it once was. There was a time when most other countries looked to you for leadership in world affairs: democracy, freedom, concern for its citizens. No longer, IMO. We fear you, yes. Respect? No.

There is something awful in watching a giant tumble. Something sad and horrible. I wish you luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:03 PM

The Patriot Act was just extended to get past the holidays.

It will also be extended again in the name of monitoring the radical Islamic (Yes, I am saying it directly, and I don't care if you howl about it) enemy.

Us or them?   Guest,AR282 "Them" right? We have a President who will do what it takes to protect this nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:10 PM

I'm no fan of Clinton. However, many of the people who are making ad hominem attacks on anyone who is critical of Bush are also the biggest whiners when it comes to Clinton. There are several examples of this right here in this thread.

__________________________


For anyone who would like to see all of the Executive Orders and FISA information in one post (so they won't have to search the whole thread to find them), here they are all together...


FISA

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_I.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_II.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_III.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_IV.html


Some backgound on FISA and related info...

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/


Executive Order 12139 (23 May 1979)

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm


EXECUTIVE ORDER 12949 (February 9, 1995)

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

"The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 prescribes procedures for requesting judicial authorization for electronic surveillance and physical search of persons engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States on behalf of a foreign power.

Requests are adjudicated by a special eleven member court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court."


Here are some other links that are relevant to the discussion of FISA and its related Executive Orders...

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/fisa/

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM

Peace, I see the rumbling over whether Bush should be impeached not as death throes of a republic, but as a sign that democracy is still alive and kicking. In australia these things are happening, and everyone is watching the cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM

I hope you're right, Freda.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:46 PM

Carol, What I see here are some people who are simply asking for a fact or two. Like, specifically what rule did Bush break, disobey, ignore, etc. It doesn't appear that all are being attacked for criticizing Bush, they just want something more tangible than "I can't stand him". I do not agree with him completely myself.


I see where the Executive orders were pretty much covered earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:53 PM

Old Guy and guest G. - Technically, the U.S. has not declared war on Iraq. I think Bush has to decide if the U.S. is simply an occupying force or if they are at war with Iraq. Seems you have a very confused president.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Bush keeps ignoring the constitution and bending the law depending on what suits him. I'm sure that the ACLU will have a heyday with this even if Bush is not impeached. I think he should be hung for treason.

From Amos' link above: "...several judges on the court wanted to know why the administration believed eavesdropping on American citizens without warrants was legal when the law specifically requires such warrants."

The tide is turning and the Bush apologists will soon be slinking away with their tail between their legs.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM

Clearly, you have not been reading the thread, Guest,23 Dec 05 - 01:46 PM. They are calling people whiners and casting aspersions on people's maturity and mental health status, questioning their patriotism, and also accusing them of being al Qaeda sympathizers. And the same people who think that the current Attorney General is more qualified to have an opinion on legal matters think they know more about the law than Janet Reno. Typical partisan ad hominem attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM

As to why it makes you an ass, that's just my opinion. The TImes has published articles both supportive of and derogatory of the Administration, at different times and on different subjects. In addition, your effort to avoid the issues raise by invalidating their source would be understandable if somoene were invoking the National Enquirer or the Rev. Moon's Washington Times, outlets which carry their bias on their sleeve; but the bias of the New York Times is primarily one of interesting andintelligent analysis and dharply thought-out opinions. 'Course, they aren't perfect, but I'd be interested to hear where your "preferred" sources hang their hats -- Fox?

The entire point of the core argument is that the Constitution may NOT be set aside by executive order, whether by Carter or by Bush. If they have done so, they should be called on it. If this principle is to be dissolved, let us do so explicitly with full consent of the governed, not by back-channel imperialistic power-mongering, Bush's slimy little specialty. The Constitution calls for the consent of the governed as the primary principle of all law of the land. Let's get our importances straight and pull our heads out of our butts, here, pal. We are a nation of explicit principle, or we are a nation of hedonistic opportunism where getting away with things is the senior measure of virtue. You get to call it, along with every concerned citizen. I've made my call. If there is to be a war, let it be declared and the enemy named. Let us stop sliding downhill toward fascism.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:57 PM

John Dean says what he did is an impeachable offense. As long as the crooks are in charge, nothing will be done. However, wait and see what the next election brings.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:03 PM

Is it possible for Bush to be charged with crimes he committed in office even after he is out of office?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:07 PM

Sure; he can be held by the next President as an illegal combatant, a white-collar terrorist, and enemy of the state; and he can be sequestered indefinitely with habeas corpus suspended by the war powers he insisted on abrogating tot he office.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:16 PM

So, Bush will do whatever he needs to to protect this country, eh? Then he should take his arrogant ass back to TX and stay there. What the hell, he's there most of the time anyway.

By the way, the 4th amendment was adopted long before wire taps.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:58 PM

My apologies for not reading this entire thread and I realize that this post is without certain merit, if at all, perhaps even frivolous to some, but, goodness gracious....

McCarthy!?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 03:05 PM

I personally believe that a full investigation is warranted. If criminal liability is found as I believe it will be he should be impeached or more likely as he would most likely be out of office he should have criminal charges filed against him.
Adolf Hitler used the same excuse of national security to justify his acts. Now, I'm not saying that President Bush is anywhere near as bad as Adolf Hitler but I will say that his actions threaten the freedom and the security of every American and our allies in the war on terror.
At this point it is important to find a credible person with honor and integrity to run against whomever the current administration fields to be the hier apparentl to G.W. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,Merde, alors!
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:31 PM

Arrogance, ignorance, and incompetence is a really bad mixture anywhere you find it. It is particularly disastrous in a national leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

Amos: nations, organizations, or persons" associated with al-Qaida

Persons could be a citizen or not a citizen.

Read the authorization Congress gave to Geroge Bush to do what he is doing.

It has been nearly 60 years since the last declaration of war by the United States.

Have all of the wars since then been illegal?

All of the previous presidents have done the same thing Bush is doing.

Because you have a personal dislike for Bush (your man lost and Bush won), you try to use any straw you can grasp to discredit him. It does you no good and will never do you any good, only harm.

For all you know, his actions could have saved you from a terrorist atack and you would never know it.

I think you are the ignorant, arrogant one.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:56 PM

Bush is a dolt. Face facts. You ever hear the man speak? Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:04 PM

Piece:

He knows how to spell and pronounce Jesus. What are your credentilas for public speaking?

Put down your bong so that you can enunciate correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:07 PM

What a quick-witted reply. I am impressed. To think: he knows about Jesus. Hell, he hears directly from God. You support that idiot? Give it a rest, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:08 PM

"For all you know, his actions could have saved you from a terrorist atack and you would never know it."

Or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:09 PM

The problem with secrecy as a defence, is that it is so unaccountable. Where i work in a government department, secrecy is often used to cover up mistakes - mistakes that have happened because working in secrecy is a recipe for overstepping or ignoring legal investigative requirements. There are always people who abuse such environments and make huge clangers in their work. Then they step out and say - we were protecting you.

These are the people we need protecting from, and that's why we have laws about judicial oversight of government.

Double rebuke for Bush as judges attack terror moves - the Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,Merde, alors!
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:19 PM

"It has been nearly 60 years since the last declaration of war by the United States." True. The Korean war was action of the United Nations, and the United States forces involved in this war were operating under the aegis of the U. N. Therefore, presumably, a declaration of war from the United States was not legally required.

"Have all of the wars since then been illegal?" Other than the aforementioned, whether you like it or not, according to international law, yes, they were illegal. International law requires that a state of war be declared twenty-four hours before the commencement of hostilities. The last time war was officially declared by the United States was during Frenklin D. Roosevelt's "day that will live in infamy" speech on December 8th, 1941, when he declared that a state of war now existed between the United States and the nations of Japan and Germany. This, of course, in response to the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor on the previous day.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM

Do NOT confuse the guy with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:31 PM

"He [Bush] knows how to spell and pronounce Jesus."

Yes he does, Old Guy. He also has not got the first clue as to what Christ meant about anything. Bush has so perverted YOUR God that if Christ returned tomorrow He would vomit to see what that garbage in Washington has tried to do in His name. Shove your religious agenda up--well, you likely know how the angel came to be on top of the Christmas tree.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:21 PM

Here's a page which reports on the rapid escalation in press articles about impeachment, of interest to those who follow such things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Puff The Magic Dragon
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:33 PM

he is the only person that can say "a bomb went off and killed 185 people" and then do that little smirk thing that he does

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:38 PM

Wrong, Puff. Bin Laden did it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:42 PM

Skiing was great. Thanks for asking.

Two comments;
Jeffp - Did you read it? More importantly, do you think YOU understood?

Peace - Yes, I have heard Bush speak. I have also spent much time in the South with a number of 'Men of Letters' whose 'accent' was very strong.

Bad comment, you have lost your credibility. The Pope has a slight accent also. Is he a dummy?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:44 PM

"Peace - Yes, I have heard Bush speak. I have also spent much time in the South with a number of 'Men of Letters' whose 'accent' was very strong."

I am not talking about his accent. I am talking about the content of his speeches. The man is a dolt.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:45 PM

"Bad comment, you have lost your credibility."

And coming from you, that is very complimentary. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:52 PM

Your man at work, A.

"It's totally wiped out. ... It's devastating, it's got to be doubly devastating on the ground." --turning to his aides while surveying Hurricane Katrina flood damage from Air Force One, Aug. 31, 2005

"I'm occasionally reading, I want you to know, in the second term." --Washington, D.C., March 16, 2005

"This notion that the United States is getting ready to attack Iran is simply ridiculous. And having said that, all options are on the table." --Brussels, Belgium, Feb. 22, 2005

"I'm going to spend a lot of time on Social Security. I enjoy it. I enjoy taking on the issue. I guess, it's the mother in me." --Washington D.C., April 14, 2005

For example, how benefits are calculate, for example, is on the table; whether or not benefits rise based upon wage increases or price increases. There's a series of parts of the formula that are being considered. And when you couple that, those different cost drivers, affecting those — changing those with personal accounts, the idea is to get what has been promised more likely to be — or closer delivered to what has been promised. Does that make any sense to you? It's kind of muddled." --explaining his plan to save Social Security, Tampa, Fla., Feb. 4, 2005

"We've got a lot of rebuilding to do. First, we're going to save lives and stabilize the situation. And then we're going to help these communities rebuild. The good news is -- and it's hard for some to see it now -- that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house -- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." (Laughter) --touring hurricane damage, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." --Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:00 PM

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over again for the truth to sink in"

Peace, he was speaking to you and others who just can't seem to catch a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:02 PM

Huh. I am sure that only you and a select few really understand him. I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,Merde, alors!
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:16 PM

It takes a certain genetic makeup to converse in and comprehend dolt-speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:17 PM

'"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over again for the truth to sink in"'

BTW, O repub apologist/troll: when you quote passages and you leave sections/words out, it is apt to insert those three little dots to show that you have omitted material. They are referred to as an ellipsis. Thus, your post should have read

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over again for the truth to sink in . . .".

FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST,Merde, alors!
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:18 PM

And being reality-oriented is a definite handicap.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:18 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:18 PM

>>Guest,AR282 "Them" right? We have a President who will do what it takes to protect this nation<<

Exactly right. He will do whatever he wants to and tell you he's doing it for the nation. That right there should be impeachable. His oath binds him to protect the Constitution ONLY. Not the people, not the nation--the Constitution. From Article II Section I:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

By upholding this oath, a president is prevented from becoming a dictator. He's only allowed to do what the Constitution says he may do. That's why his oath binds him to protect the Constitution and only that. Once you allow him to step beyond that to "protecting the people" or "protecting the nation" the Constitution becomes an obstacle to him. And the inherent problem of Dubby's mentality is that when something would hinder him, he ignores it. Hence, he ignores the Constitution and justifies it with, "But I did all for you!!!"

Buy that BS at your own peril.

"The people never give up their freedoms but under some delusion."--Edmund Burke

Subject: RE: BS: Should Bush be Impeached???...
From: DougR
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 11:53 PM

Bush won't be impeached because he has not committed a impeachable offence. There are a lot of opinions floating around out there (none here of course) but I think this thing will blow over and all of you Mudcatters who are worried about being wiretapped can go back to making music.

DougR