BS: Older Drivers are Killers

Subject: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Bruce Martin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 04:51 AM

Five years ago my partner was killed in a road accident.A man of 83 crossed the central line and she was killed in a head on.The gentleman died five days later.Doctors said there was no signs of any illness as a cause of the accident. Five weeks ago a young lady who works in my office was killed when a 72 year old woman drove out of a side road without stopping onto a busy carriageway. A lady in another car was also killed.The young lady was 21.These are not isolated incidents. I have wrote to government, lobby groups and the local media. The government must bring in some type of a test in the U.K. for car drivers of this age. Would any of you get into a taxi or aircraft if the driver or pilot was in his 80's ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:09 AM

"This age."? How old are you? When is the last time you were "tested"? How much money would you be willing to pay to be tested? How often do you think you should be tested? What criteria would you use for driving suspension?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:13 AM

Quote from DVLA Site

"Age is no bar to the holding of a licence. DVLA requires confirmation at age of 70 that no medical disability is present, thereafter a 3 year licence is issued subject to satisfactory completion of medical questions on the application form. Notwithstanding, as ageing progresses, a driver or his relative(s) may be aware that the combination of progressive loss of memory, impairment in concentration and reaction time with possible loss of confidence, suggest consideration be given to cease driving. Physical frailty is not per se a bar to the holding of a licence."

While I sympathise with your personal situation, it remains a fact that many more accidents are caused by young and inexperienced drivers, than by older drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: s&r
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:19 AM

It may be that reaction time slows with age; experience, anticipation and caution can make up for this. Impatience and starting your journey too late are in my opinion the biggest road hazards.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:57 AM

I sympathise most deeply with your feelings of loss, Bruce, and I understand your anger and frustration.

You undoubtedly feel that these two drivers should not have been on the road in charge of a vehicle, and in this you are most probably right. I would even agree that some kind of driver assessment, including a medical and an ability check for drivers over, say, 70 might be a good idea.

My reasons, however, are not the same as yours.

The two instances you give show two drivers who, through inattention to the task in hand, caused the deaths of other road users. This may however simply show that they were very bad drivers, and age may not have been a factor in this.

Statistically, the most dangerous group on the road are aged 18 - 25 years, while the safest are 50 - 70 years.

A check into the past history of these two might well show similar incidents over the course of their driving careers.

There are many very good octogenarian drivers out there, who have never been involved in an accident. Indeed, to take your example, some years ago there was a London cabbie, who was still qualifying annually at the age of 83.

Establishing stereotypes, by generalising from too little evidence, is a dangerous procedure, as it can lead to people being put into categories in which they do not belong, and many older drivers rely on their cars for mobility, especially those in areas where public transport is poor, or non-existent.

You lost your partner in an incident that was truly against the odds, due to the actions of a very bad driver, but I would suggest that, if the driver had been 21 years old (a much more likely event) you would not be suggesting a retest for all drivers of that age.

Now, I said above that I think a check for very elderly drivers might be a good idea. My reasons for that are as follows.

1. It would point up the physical ability of the driver, allowing those who no longer have the strength to handle steering, or braking effectively to be removed from the road.

2. It would give information on bad driving habits, deficiencies in attention or attitude, and other factors, which could be remedied before allowing further driving to continue.

The thing is though, that similar testing would probably be just as useful for drivers aged 25, or 35, or.........

Once again, please accept my deepest sympathy

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:08 AM

All of the above, plus the below, from national statistics;
Although they walk less than people in younger age groups, older people are considerably more likely to be killed, as pedestrians, in a road accident. People aged 70 and over walked on average nearly a third less far than the population as a whole in 2002. However, 3.7 per 100,000 population aged 70 and over were killed as pedestrians in road accidents, compared with a rate of 1.3 per 100,000 for the population as a whole.

So the elderly are more likely to be killed by their younger compatriots if they are making a journey out of a vehicle!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:12 AM

as a cyclist;
i'd support compulsary regular refresher training & re-testing
[eg. every 5 years]
for all drivers..

and tougher banning penalties for convicted careless drivers.

.. and also a road users training/testing/licence system for cyclists
and electric disability buggy users..

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:22 AM

When I was a Police Officer, I had to deal with accidents and found that the 'majority accident' age group was the 17-25's....yes there were some serious faults made by the older generation but if we start changing the rules for them then we must also perhaps raise the age limit for young drivers...where does it stop?.
Sorry for the problems you have had but the age thing is perhaps more coincidence than absolute reality.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:38 AM

Cyclists are a bit like some of the users of this website, they have too much to say, and are often unecessarily aggressive. For the free use of the roads and/or of the Mudcat a little more gratitude and humility would seem to be in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Bruce Martin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:42 AM

The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy. I have no reason to disbelieve him. Yes younger drivers are a serious threat on our roads and glad to see the police target this group daily. When you see a boy racer you tend to know what to expect. Insurance companies make it difficult for them, police media campaigns focus on them and the point system nails them, but there is nothing to deal with the older drivers.Since the accident I tend to be more aware of older drivers and their lack of use of indicators and junction positioning.Gnu, I am 38 a father of two young children who ask why they don't have a mother. I hold an advanced licence in both car and motorcycle. I would be willing to be tested as often as I would be required.As to the criteria I would you use for driving suspension, reaction times and control I feel would be important. Hope you never live my postion in life. Many thanks to the rest of you for understanding and kindness.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:48 AM

Two killed yesterday in Northern Ireland. 74 year old lady driver was the cause. You should phone the families gnu of 28 year old and the 17 year old and mouth off to them.Sure they would like to hear from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:54 AM

I can only endorse every word that Don T wrote. There are drivers of eighty, who drive safely and there are drivers of thirty who never will. Statistics would probably identify young male drivers as the most dangerous on the road. However, we are all well aware that neither age nor gender are any guarantee that someone will drive a certain way.
The worst traffic hooligans whom I have encountered in recent years have usually been wealthy men between thirty and sixty on the German Autobahns. Many of these yobs should never be allowed out on anything more dangerous than a bicycle.
I am very sorry to hear of your loss Bruce. It is a tragic coincidence though. Older drivers have killed people, but they still remain one of the safest sections of society to have behind the wheel of a car.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM

GUEST 06.38pm - Are you a cyclist ? I presume you are NOT a mudcat member (most of us are more or less polite) I ride a pushbike fairly
regularly and have problems all the time with totally thoughtless drivers , who seem never to even SEE a cyclist , let alone accept that
we have any right to be on the road .
That said , I have no time for the fools on bikes who ride on pavements , ignore traffic lights , and dont have any lights at night .

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:51 AM

Alanabit. I've never had a problem on german autobahns. As long as you move over after overtaking you have no problem. They can't understand our lazy middle lane driving, and neither should they. I don't either!

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:48 AM

Guest 07:51 (is your name a secret?) I have been driving on the Autobahn for over twenty years and it is something I have to do regrettably often for my work. No, I do not believe in staying in the middle lane unless I am overtaking. Neither do I. What I am talking about, is the yobs who drive a metre from your bumper, when you are overtaking a line of lorries at about 120 km/h or more. You very often have them threatening your life (and that of your kids) even when you are overtaking, while keeping your distance from the car in front of you. The mentality of these bits of human filth is that they have the right to tailgate the driver in front of you. Do you want these assholes on the road?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:49 AM

How many road accident resulting in deaths are caused by drivers between the ages of 18-24??

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:02 AM

It is a problem. Five years ago, my father-in-law gave up driving because of slowed response time and age-induced macular degeneration (since stabilized). My mother-in-law (87) will NOT admit to lessened capacity, but fortunately she hasn't driven at night for many years.

I'm soon to be 61, my wife is 63. We're both going to take refresher courses the next time they're offered.

I think that after, say, 75 or whenever in the opinion of a license examiner your reflexes or other physical or mental functioning has slowed down you should be re-examined and if necessary given a restricted license (of it should be removed entirely). Re-testing should be mandatory every three years -- and if you stop or are stopped driving free public transportation should be made available.

(As a paranthetical note, the best driving course I ever had was an informal one-on-one by a pursuit driver for the Ohio State Police. He taught me things I never knew could be done -- legal, and which enhance safety at any speed (I never drove over 110 mph on the course). The second best was a cross-country driving course taught by the US Army -- my driver's education classed in high school were a joke.)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:19 AM

This fall I was forced off the road by a 104 year old driver.
This May he will be 105.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:42 AM

In the UK a driver over 70 causing a motor accident to which the Police have been caused is likely to have to to attend court in order that their ability to continue driving can be assessed. Most of the time they are not given the option to plead guilty and get fined and/or points on their license. I dealt with these cases regularly as a motor injury claims negotiator, arranging for legal representation for these peole. Most of the time the solicitor would try and persuade the driver to voluntarily give up the license and accept that they were no longer fit to drive. The company I worked for tailored motor policies for the over 60s, and made a modest profit from the motor account. We wouldn't touch drivers under 25 - that group was considered too risky - and some of the worse cases I had to deal with were caused by young drivers, who then tried to put the blame onto our Insured.

Any one of us could be the cause of a fatal accident. Driving when tired, losing attention because World War Three has broken out between your kids in the back seat and just plain old carelessness can make killers of us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:08 AM

I don't think comparing the accident rates of young to elderly drivers is a valid one. Younger drivers' accidents are most often caused by willful disregard as opposed to physical or mental deficiency due to age.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM

So Bobad, at what age do YOU consider a man to be physically or mentally unfit?

Bear in mind the fact that many of the world's acknowledged geniuses did their best work in their latter years.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: gnu
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM

Well... excuse me for asking some valid questions. Your implication that I have no "understaning and kindness" precludes intelligent discussion. Your loss does sadden me. However, I assumed you were soliciting support, not sympathy.

This is me leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 10:38 AM

Motor vehicle accidents are caused by:

1) Drunk (or maybe stoned) drivers.

2) Drivers talking on hand-held cell phones while driving.

3) Younger drivers without sufficient experience; especially when the car is full of their friends.

4) Young or middle-aged male drivers trying to prove that their balls are bigger than the other guy's.

5) Moms whose children in the back seat demand attention while they're driving.

6) And older drivers whose vision, reflexes, etc., are shot. No argument there. But why single out one of those groups as the bad guys?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:06 AM

Bruce,

In your second post you quoted the officer as follows:- "The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy. I have no reason to disbelieve him."

Any traffic policeman might expect to deal with fatal accidents on a very regular basis, and a remark of that nature without comparison to other age groups is essentially meaningless, and unhelpful.

You are entitled to blame the driver responsible for your loss, but unless you have evidence to link older drivers to a high proportion of deaths, in relation to their numbers, your basic premise is untenable.

Insurance companies sell comprehensive policies to older drivers at premiums that would not buy third party for a twenty five year old, and believe me insurance underwriters do not make mistakes in calculating odds.

You are hurting now, for yourself and your children, but trust me, your hurt will not be lessened by bitterness against the thousands of good older drivers who had nothing to do with your loss.

I know, from personal experience, that there are times when we just want to lash out at someone to relieve our feelings. In my experience, it never helps.

I wish there were something I could do to reduce the pain, but only time can do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

"So Bobad, at what age do YOU consider a man to be physically or mentally unfit?"

Don, It's not up to me to make the call that someone is not physically or mentally fit to be operating a motor vehicle, the responsibility for this assessment is up to the person's physician and a serious one it is as the physician can be held liable if it can be shown that he knew a person shouldn't have been driving yet neglected to have his license revoked.

This is an ongoing problem in the rural area in which I live as a car is a necessity and the revocation of one's driver's permit usually means the end of your living in your own home. My physician is also a personal friend and he often speaks of the battles he wages in trying to have elderly drivers' permits revoked.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM

Despite regular visits to her physician, my elderly mother was deemed physically and mentally fit to drive. The good doctor had obviously never been a passenger in a vehicle, with her at the wheel.

Fortunately for some on the road here in BC, we have a provision under the motor vehicle act which allows family members and I believe others, in confidence, to report in writing concerns about elderly drivers and request a driving test. As a result, my brother and I were relieved to finally get our 80+ year old mother off the road and do it with anonymity.

While its a lot more work for us and initially she was depressed, we've still managed to keep her and her dog in her own home and the cost to her, of maintaining and running a vehicle, more than covers a few hours a week extra companionship and help, beyond my brother's and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

Now if I could only get my hands on the SOB who talked her in to spending $500+ bucks to have her gutters cleaned on her little mobile home......

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

"accept that we have any right to be on the road"

Didn't your mother teach you to keep your toys in the yard...   Bike paths are absolutely the way to go, cause they have NO business being on the street with motor-vehicles... or on the sidewalk with pedestrians...

When Ralph Nader was pushing for the seat-belt as mandatory gear in every car, he also invented (IIRC) a key pad system to help deter unsafe and infirm drivers... Like the old hand held game "Einstein" a key pad in the dash, when you tried to start the car would 'play' a sequence of a handful of numbers.... If you wanted your car to start, you had to play it back exactly as it was presented to you... (You may have been given 2 tries) Once you failed, your cars ignition would lock-itself-out for a certain time period. This would cut way down on the number of drunks/stoned/emotionally excited (Don't drive angry) or infirm people on the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:38 PM

On the other hand, when his doctor flagged my 80+ year old father-in-law as a possible risk, he lost his driver's licence after failing his driver's test, mainly because he did not do proper shoulder checks when changing lanes.

We encouraged him to practice and try the test again using both the side mirrors and physically checking over his shoulder and he did and had his licence was reinstated.

Age never seemed to affect his driving ability, just an ingrained bad habit, which he managed to change and we never felt that anyone was at greater risk for him being on the road, despite his age or the fact that he also had some physicial handicaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 01:45 PM

Bike paths ... good idea CH, I agree with you on keeping bikes off the road, and along with skateboarders ... cemetaries are good places to ride a bike in.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:11 PM

Bike paths, a good idea, they have some here in Colorado Springs. Now how do we keep the cars off of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM

I tried to fire up a USB 2.0 external hard disk using an older driver. Crashed all to hellangone. Had to reboot and re-download the right driver.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Arkie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 02:48 PM

In this little town of 2800 people we have aggressive, rude drivers of every age.   As for older drivers being particularly dangerous we have had several involved in near fatal accidents. Before those accidents those drivers had been involved in minor scrapes and had amply demostrated they should no longer be behind a wheel. I have a very close friend who suceeded in persuading his father to give up driving.   Some accidents involving older drivers could be avoided and are avoided by the driver or close family members reading the signs and realizing that a person should not be at the wheel of a motor vehicle.   The same could be said of younger drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bert
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM

It takes two vehicles to have an accident. Just a couple of weeks ago I (age 67) had a driver come at me who was on the wrong side of the road. It was a man, I guess in his twenties. I just pulled over and let him pass.

I have been looking on the web to find statistics on traffic accidents but couldn't find any that listed accidents by the driver at fault. General statistics seem to point to high accident rates by age which starts to decline at ages around the mid forties and doesn't pick up again until the late sixties.

I guess I should be looking at taking a driving course pretty soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 03:34 PM

younger drivers are a serious threat on our roads and glad to see the police target this group daily. When you see a boy racer you tend to know what to expect.

Surely what the police would be doing here would be focussing their attention on people who are driving too fast and aggressively? It wouldn't normally be possible,until they were stopped, to tell whether the driver was a boy-racer, a middle-aged bloke with a mid-life crisis, a woman with severe PMT, or a old person who'd lost his or her marbles.

My point is, what matters isn't who you are, or what category you fall into, it's what you do. (And about the worst common crime on the road is tailgating. Anyone of any age who drives too close to a car in front, meaning a speed where a collision would occur if the car in front ran into a block of concrete lying in the road, deserves to lose their licence for life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 04:58 PM

Bruce Martin told us:


The officer from Traffic Branch who dealt with me at the time of the death said that it was the third fatal accident he had dealt with in six months involving drivers over seventy.

That comment tells us nothing!

First, "involving" doesn't mean "caused by".

We need to know how many fatal accidents in toto he saw during that period. You can't have a meaningful statistical result without a large enough sample. If the sample is too small, the flukes and freak accidents and one-time circumstances can shoot your results all kerflooey. If, for example, he only saw four fatal accidents, then even three which we might assume were caused by drivers over 70 could be a fluke. If he saw sixty, three is not a huge percentage.

Supposing it's a large enough sample to be meaningful, you then need to know how the accident causes were distributed. My guess is that the causes would be overrepresented in the late-childhood (15-18) and early adulthood (19-25) groups.

As I say, the officer's comment, at least as reported, is meaningless.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:10 PM

In the interest of full disclosure, I should perhaps tell everyone that I just turned 75.

I believe I am a safer driver now than when I was in the 25-40 range. (I start that at 25 because that's when I learned to drive.)

My eyesight without glasses was lousy then, and it's lousy now. But I did and do have glasses that correct very well. I assume that my reactions are not as fast as in that period of my life; true enough. But my attitude toward driving is much more settled now than then, and I don't take some chances now that I did then. I don't drive as fast.   However, I'm not the kind of a slow driver you sometimes see in older drivers who makes problems by his slow speeds in traffic.

Whether this makes you think of me as a poster child for the no-older-drivers position or the opposite (which I adopt) is neither here nor there, because generalities are not ruled by particular cases. But I thought everyone was entitled to this look into the source and (in?)validity of my previous post.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: number 6
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

Good one Amos !

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

Age has nothing to do with it - except in cases where dementia, Alzheimers or some other physical ailment is involved. There are also physical and mental conditions that should prohibit younger drivers from getting licenses as well.

I was always taught that driving is a privelage, not a right. That privelage can be taken away and I think that retests should be mandatory for all drivers. Yes it will cost money and time, but if you wish to have a license - you pay for it.

I think restrictions against drunk drivers should be harsher. First offense for being behind the wheel of a car while drunk should be mandatory lose of license even if there wasn't an accident. The potential is too risky.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 05:39 PM

For every story about an older driver being a problem, there is one about one who does fine...and as has been noted, many MORE about careless young drivers. That being said, I am ready and willing to begin being tested every 2-3 years now that I am in my 60s. I know that 'some' older folks stretch it too long, and I don't want to be one of them.

My mother drove for 55 years with NO accidents, until she was 77...and a few years ago I shared driving from Maryland to Kansas & back with a man who was 88! He was amazing, alert and careful, and lived to be 98.
...maybe I've got a few years left.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,drive 'em out
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:23 PM

Bad & dangerous drivers of all ages need culling;

Minimum age should be raised to at least 18.

[exceptions could possibly be made for rigorously tested special licences for 17 year olds
who can prove their job depends on driving need]

Lifetime bans should be more readily imposed for 1st serious driving offense,
and also for persistent serial medium category offenders.

Maximum age should be negotiable for each individual over statutory retirement age,
dependent on regular medical competance checkups and driving skills retests.

High performance vehicles should be restricted to over 25 year olds
only after passing advanced driving course.

Car ownership should be restricted to no more than 2 per household.

Cyclists should be trained and tested, and not allowed on roads without
a valid license and roadworthy bicycle.

Motorcyclists should be legally enforced to permanently weld a sidecar
to every motorbike and only be allowed on the road
with the mother-in-law as a passenger.

fat rich middleaged Harley owners need a serious talking to about self image and fashion style..


..etc..etc..etc..


ok, some of that was not entirely serious, but I meant most of it !

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:36 PM

First offense for being behind the wheel of a car while drunk should be mandatory lose of license even if there wasn't an accident.

In the UK that is the case. You lose your licence automatically for 12 months if you try to drive when over the limit, and you are spotted. The fact that there might not have been any kind of accident or driving error doesn't alter that. You might just have been stopped because you had a rear light which was a bit dim. You can get fined or jailed as well, dependimng how far over the limit you are.

Here's a page with deatils about the penalties and so forth. The limit? Two pints of beer will likely put you over it.

All seems reasonable enough to me. They're only trying to keep us from killing ourselves and other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Peace
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:40 PM

That same law is in effect in Canada. However, that is no assurance that the newly-suspended driver with a DUI (driving [while] under the influence) doesn't then drive without a license.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:41 PM

" Maximum age should be negotiable for each individual"
Then so should minimum age...

>
" Cyclists should be trained and tested, and not allowed on roads without"
Childrens toys have no business on the roads at all....

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:45 PM

caught driving without a license -> Prison

caught driving drunk -> even more Prison


caught drunk driving without a licence -> twice as much and even more Prison

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:48 PM

..and what out of interest are the statistics for accidents
caused by heart attacks/strokes while in charge of a vehicle..

a) car drivers ?

b) cyclists ?

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Robert Ellis
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:56 PM

79 year old man just killed three hours ago in Broughshane Ulster. drove out of driveway of his home onto road without stopping, three people in passing car in hospital, two on danger list. So sad thoughts with all of them

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 07:59 PM

I saw a cartoon many years ago which had an elderly couple in a brand new expensive car and a young couple in an old and possibly un-roadworthy banger both shaking their fists at each other and demanding that "These old crocks should be kept off the road!"

I have been driving for 37 years now - I'm not, I hope, a worse driver, for my "advancing years" and experience but, I'm certainly a more scared one with the agressive, driving that I find particularly from younger men who seem to have no respect for speed limits, mobile phone use or even the most basic road safety. (sorry being a grumpy old woman doesn't mean I haven't just cause)
However, might I make one plea - that maybe there should be an offence for driving TOO slowly in reasonable driving conditions thereby causing extremely frustrated drivers to take possibly uncharacteristic risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Royston Robbie
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:13 PM

Older drivers are a total menace on our roads. They drive below the speed limits causing many to overtake with risks.Would put more faith in younger drivers anyday. Old coddgers have no place on our roads full stop.Take them them off at 65, just like the workplace.Talk to traffic cops about them, my brother in law is one and what he has told me said enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Older Drivers are Killers
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 08:17 PM

A mom and her teenage daughter were killed in a road rage incident here in Texas today. It seems they were in the left lane and a 25 year old male wanted to get past them. They didn't move fast enough for him so he tailgaited them and eventually bumped them hard enough to send them into the other lane of traffic where they had a head on collision. Two people killed just because someone thought they weren't driving fast enough. The 25 year old has been arrested.