Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'

Subject: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:00 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4603886.stm

I apologise for not being able to turn the above into a blue clicky thing. It's a report from the BBC website about another attempt to put a stop to a long-standing black-face tradition in Padstow, Cornwall, on the basis that it may offend black people. Any thoughts?

(Apart from my inability to blue clicky - I'd be grateful if someone more complit could assist)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,cats
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:24 AM

There was a thread about this last year when it was going to the CPS. Have a look. It was found, for the second time, to have no case to answer. Even so, this year, the Merrymakers have changed the name to Mummers Day and scrupulously gone through all the words of all the songs they sing, to make sure they can be offensive to nobody. It's one of the many black faced guising traditions that are found all over the country.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:43 AM

Yes - but under threat once more. Where will this end?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: breezy
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:30 AM

'nigger balls and licquorice' to the lot of em.

'It was a dark black, black dark night,' or words to that affect.

Please discuss

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:46 AM

GUESTs ... perhaps we could continue this discussion in The Previous Thread.

;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: jellybean
Date: 18 Jan 06 - 06:08 PM

Just out of interest has anyone that is passing comment on darkie day actually seen it? Once again the politically correct brigade have got hold of something and has blown it out of all proportion

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 06:24 AM

I have.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 06:25 AM

Sorry, pressed the wrong button.
Dianne Abbott MP has publicly said she has never seen it. She is only going on what others have told her.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:18 AM

She doesn't need to have seen it - it's all part of Labour's plan to suppress any independent culture the English, or in this case the Cornish, might have.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: jellybean
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 05:28 PM

I have seen it too many a time and i think its a shame that a harmless tradition maybe forced to stop because certain people are going on hearsay

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 06 - 06:22 PM

I actually believe it is unlikley to close. They have emphasised the mumming aspect, taken out any possibly offensive words and been filmed for hours by the Police and the material sent to the CPS - who decided not to prosecute.

Just 'cos Diane Abbott - who of course as a good socialist sends her son to public school

http://education.guardian.co.uk/publicschools/story/0,12505,1076207,00.html

says it is so doesn't mean it is so.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Little Robyn
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:51 PM

Is she the sort of person who would try to ban di-hydrogen monoxide because it is so dangerous? It can kill you in a few seconds!
Some people don't know what they're talking about!
OSS OSS!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cllr
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:20 PM

wee Oss

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:26 PM

Why are we so sensitive in the uk.

Lets say bollocks to the lot and do things that are not offensive and cobblers to the silly tossers that think it is offensive.

I get so tired of hearing people say that this is offensive that is offensive when they do not know what the kinell they are dealing with.

If they don't like it stay away, otherwise shut up.

grrr my bloood boileth over

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,kim
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:48 AM

i haven't seen one of these parades but they sound like they could offend i would love to know if any Black people in the parade black up their faces (if there are actually any) there is no way that this parade could happen in a multi cultural society like Birmingham where i come from!! Cornwall is predominantly white which is why no one thinks it is offensive

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Watchdog
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:52 AM

Blacking up isn't necessarily connected with skin colour. There are many cultures where black skinned people 'white up'. It's just a disguise, usually using readily available materials. Apparently, Aborigines in Australia use ash. Caribbean dancers and mummers also white up. White skinned people have variously used soot, coal dust, burnt cork, etc.

It might be that the Padstow tradition is one of the few that is actually based on skin colour, but it seems that the participants have taken steps to minimise any offence and they should probably be left to enjoy their tradition.

Dianne Abbott needs to concentrate on real discrimination.

And she needs to learn something about her British culture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 10:54 AM

If you find these parades offensive, then you have a VERY thin skin indeed. Particularly since you have taken the position of anticipating offence without ever having seen one!! Long may they continue, they are hilarious.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM

Just because Diane Abbott is against it doesn't mean it is right.

This is a thread we all whip each other with every year - almost as traditional as Morris Dancing.

The issue revolves around two factors:

1. Some white people have been blacking up for a long time for reasons they claim are "traditional".
2. Some other people feel uneasy about this and some are offended, because white people blacking up has sometimes been used to mock black people.

How many people does the event have to offend before people stop doing it? If it was the entire population of Cornwall I guess it would stop. If it was just me, I guess they wouldn't. If the offended live a long way off, would anybody care?

So, if it is about anonimity, as is often claimed, wouldn't they look just about as anonomous if they blued, greened or rainbowed up?

In fact rainbowing up would be something a living tradition might consider?

No? No, I thought not.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 12:43 PM

No, it is NOT a thread where there is an annual rumble-- it WAS the ONE thread on the topic that stayed on topic, because the LAST thread that wandered into the PCness of the event pretty well described the actual historical significance of the event and its cultural meanings to the people whose culture HAS the event.

~S~

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

They have been told to stop wearing afro wigs - once some were photographed doing it. They agreed they would.

Rainbowing sounds a good idea. but we all know it won't happen.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:27 PM

"pretty well described the actual historical significance of the event and its cultural meanings to the people whose culture HAS the event".

I guess most people accept that what ever "Darkir days" looks like it has been going on for a while and people value it.

That doesn't make any difference. How many people does it have to offend?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Not everyone blacks up, Les. Leicester Morris "red up" on Plough Monday to become Red Leicester Border. It hearkens back to the use of reddle or ruddle to mark tups. The soil round Leicestershire and Rutland is clay-rich (Ruddle-land = Rutland).

I don't think this could be construed by anyone as any kind of racial slur, but these things are all about context, and many colours can offend providing the context is right: the children at my daughter's primary school were once face-painted yellow to represent Chinese people...

Does Darkie Day have racist roots? Well there was a really interesting piece in EDS magazine a while back, which concluded that although blacking up is attributed by many who do it now to the need for disguise, there are hardly any references to morris dancers blacking up before the advent of minstrelsy...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:38 PM

Thanks Ruth,

what ever the original reason is, dancers and such like, have to decide how many people they are prepared to offend. They could also join the living tradition!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:47 PM

How many people does it have to offend?
Too simple a question, I'm afraid. If an activity gives offence to a group, it's an important, but not the only, consideration.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

Yeah, well, in Madagascar they 'white up' to scare off evil spirits. Sounds logical. And there's the tale of the Morris side + musicians who were blued up and went to a pub on the day of an Everton v Liverpool match and chose a Liverpool (i.e. 'red') pub for lunch. (Or maybe it was the other way round, I can't remember). Pins and dropping covered it.

More seriously, there's all the stuff about 'nigger' minstrels, It's what the musicians call themselves, for chrissake, simply as a musical distinction from white minstrelsy. It's as silly as the 'objections' to blackleg miners (which was a reference solely to their moleskin trousers). A little bit of research wouldn't go amiss . . .

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:02 PM

Yes, I think that is a fair point, but isn't it one starting point?

I think I tried to say above we have two colliding traditions. One is white people blacking up and mocking black people in theatres.

Another is white people blacking up to dance Morris and have Darkie Days. Do this second group really want to offend? It is hard to see why they would? But most of us can thoughtless and insensitive. Rainbow up and move on.

We live in a multicultural society that has much to share, celebrate and enjoy. I danced with Gorton Morrismen, who did not black up, in a school in Longsight, Manchester, where most of the children and parents in the audience were of Asian origin. It was very exciting and a joy to be there. Morris can be and should be dramitic, the drama could not be enhanced by some introduction on the origin of blacking up!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:05 PM

"More seriously, there's all the stuff about 'nigger' minstrels, It's what the musicians call themselves, for chrissake, simply as a musical distinction from white minstrelsy."

This offensive term is ever so much more significant than what some musicians choose to call themselves.

I am quite surprised that you can seek to dismiss this issue in the way you do.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

I am quite surprised that you can seek to dismiss this issue in the way you do

You are? Then I suggest you take it up with the black musicians themselves. As far as I'm concerned, they are entitled to refer to themselves in any way they damn well like without regard to pseudo-PC middle-class, middle-England white bleeding heart bollocks. It's their music, their culture and their right to describe it how they like.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:37 PM

But the n word is a much bigger issue, especially in the mouths of white people. I have discussd it at much length with black friends. Some are not bothered, some are passed caring but many are between uneasy and offended by white people blacking up.

I also understand that "Nigger Minstrels" were all kinds of people performing in a music industry in which they were expoloited largley by white people, in a culture that treated black people extremely badly.

The history of black musicians in the last 100 years shows that that exploitation has continued in many forms. Chuck Berry, for one was endlessly exploited such that other people were paid for the songs he wrote. Yes i know it happened to Buddy Holly aswell. In the end it is said that Chuck would only play for used readies in a bag.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:22 PM

So far I have never seen the word "nigger" described in a dictionary as being derogatory, only descriptive.
Besides, how do I change the colour in my paint box from "Nigger Brown"?
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 11:13 PM

I'm sorry: Did you say "Darkie Days"? In the UK that's no different from using the "N" word and anyone from Britain knows that.
No matter what the tradition is supposed to be about, the title is offensive.
Choose another colour.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:24 AM

say nothing, do nothing, think no thoughts, write nothing, dance nowhere,sing no songs, draw nothing, practice no religion, drive nothing, don't walk on the grass 'cos you will offend someone somewhere for some reason. The desire to be offended is limitless

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:30 AM

GUEST,chris - find your suggestions deeply offensive

:-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:38 AM

(oops! the 'I' went AWOL in my last post. Shd be "I find...")

I was offended when Michael Jackson had his colour changed from 'black' to 'white'. Not because I'm white, but because I felt it was offensive to other black people. But do other black people find it offensive themselves?

(I put the terms 'black' and 'white' in quotes because I hate them - people are not literally black or white, but all shades in between. If I ever have to fill in a form with my ethnic origins, I never put 'White' - I always put 'Other' if there is such an option. I'd like to see more people do likewise, instead of playing into the hands of these PC bureaucrats. How will we ever get rid of racism if these brain-dead jobsworth d*ckheads insist on drawing attention to our differences? That's my 5p worth said. I'll get me coat now)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,donald
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:14 AM

"I suggest you take it up with the black musicians themselves. As far as I'm concerned, they are entitled to refer to themselves in any way they damn well like without regard to pseudo-PC middle-class, middle-England white bleeding heart bollocks. It's their music, their culture and their right to describe it how they like. "

Quite right, Countess.

It irks me to have these misguided PC pricks constantly dictate what is offensive and what is not. I'm also with the sentiments expressed by The Villan and Fairy Princess above. By the way, I lived in South Africa for 16 years and enjoyed the annual Coon Carnival in Cape Town each year (with my mates of *all* backgrounds): I know them well enough to knaow they'd find the views expressed by the whinging PC's above simply laughable. As Countess says, "they are entitled to refer to themselves in any way they damn well like ".

Oh, and what have you to say about the fine chaps from Nelspruit (SA) who are proud to play good football under the name 'Dangerous Darkies'? again - "they are entitled to refer to themselves in any way they damn well like ".

Totsiens

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:26 AM

"It irks me to have these misguided PC pricks constantly dictate what is offensive and what is not."

We do not dictate, we simply say how feel.

Clearly you make an important point about how people choose to name themselves and why we should respect that. But we have a long history in Western Europe, North America and so on, of treating a number of groups very badly. It has been not uncommon for "white" people to mock and descriminate against "black" people. That is why we are offended by "white" people blacking up for reasons that are often unclear. Our comments here are a very small event, much smaller than people blacking up for what I think is called fun and entertaniment.

What ever reasons you have for supporting these events it is difficult to see the relevance of calling us "pseudo-PC middle-class, middle-England white bleeding heart bollocks." Especially since you have no real idea of who we are.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:26 AM

I haven't read through all of the screed posted this month, but was rather surprised to find this coming up above the parapet again under this title. As far as I understood it, the locals in Padstow have given way, and the event is no longer known as "Darkie Days" (or at least not in public, anyway) - at least that's what we were told by Eddie Upton when he came to our club a week ago. Anyone from the Cornwall contingent able to comment on that, and confirm or otherwise???

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM

"By the way, I lived in South Africa for 16 years and enjoyed the annual Coon Carnival in Cape Town each year (with my mates of *all* backgrounds)"

Well, that makes it all right, then. Since when are "blacks" one homogenous group who all react in the same way to issues which might cause offence? Cultural background, geography, class - all will be contributing factors.

A venue where I used to work once booked the Aka Pygmies for Black History Season - when we told the city's BHS committee, they went spare because Pygmy is apparently considered a pejorative and offensive term by black people in Europe, or at least in Britain. They were actually refusing to put it into the brochure. They even wanted us to pull the show. But the performers in question were a group who self-identified as Pygmies. So was the committee, made up largely of British-born and Caribbean-born black people, wrong to be offended or not? Who is going to define and tell them what they have a right to be offended over? Were the Aka Pygmies right to use this term in Europe, where it might have other connotations? Should someone have discussed this with them, or had they already taken the issue into consideration and decided that they were free to self-identify in whatever way they chose?

These issues are so much more complex than the simple, "but a black person I know thought it was fine..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:31 AM

These issues are so much more complex than the simple, "but a black person I know thought it was fine..."

Good point well put Ruth.

It is upto us all tp be sensitive about causing offence, specially in public places. I cannot imagine that the people of Padstow want to offend anybody. Our country is changing rapidly and I for one think multi-cultural manchester is all the better for that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:52 AM

"It is upto us all tp be sensitive about causing offence, specially in public places. I cannot imagine that the people of Padstow want to offend anybody. Our country is changing rapidly and I for one think multi-cultural manchester is all the better for that."

How far are you willing to go with this sort of 'tolerance'? If some people living in your town are offended by women dressed in short skirts or slacks, should the local women refrain so as not to offend anyone?

And shouldn't your open-mindedness also extend to the residents of Padstow? Or are local cultures in the UK disqualified from your special brand of 'tolerance'?

Just wondering, sorry for the thread drift.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

Last year the Merrymakers from Padstow, who have been celebrating 'Darkie days' for centuries, changed the name to Mummers Day. All over the West country you will still find lanes and roads called Darkie Lane or Darkie Road. These have not been changed as they, too, go back centuries. As for it being associated with slavery, there is no historical link with the slave ships and no evidence of a slave ship ever coming into Padstow. The so called afro wigs that are shown in photos, which tend to be from the 1970's, tended to be bright pink or blue, and have not been worn for years anyway, and there has been no singing of 'minstrel ' songs for many, many years. The 'minstrel' songs became part of the general pub singing culture in the 50's and 60's as they toured the pubs and that is what the general people in Padstow, not the Merrymaklers necessarily, were singing then. That was ordinary people joining in with the folk tradition. The people of Padstow black their faces,[when he was alive, the west indian postman in Padstow used to black up too] or black them with a white cross, which is our own Cornish St Pirans Flag, as they have done for centuries, as a form of Guising, which happens, not just in Cornwall but in many other parts of the country too. Guising comes from the term to disguise, and as in Cornwall the easist and most readily available thing to cover faces with was dust from the mine workings, black it is. As this was a form of begging from your neighbours and the people you worked for, people would go in disguise so they would not be recognised. Twice now, Padstow has been brought to the DPP and the CRE only for it to be found that it is not racist and there is no case to answer. This year a magazine contacted all the MP's in Cornwall asking for it, and all other black faced traditions in the country, to be banned. The MP for North Cornwall, Dan Rogerson, who lives in Bodmin and has been going to Padstow for May Day, Darkie/Mummers days and Carols, since he was old enough to bunk off school to go, wrote an excellent and authoritative reply, using examples and information from many eminent folklorists to explain to them exactly what it was all about and about other black faced traditions in the UK. I know. He phoned me from the House of Commons and I was taken out of my classroom to speak to him and I was able to put him in touch with people all over the country who had the sort of credentials required. Mummers Day was covered this year on local television and various catters who were here with me celebrating Christmas were able to see exactly what all the hot air is, or really isn't, about. As therre are so many black faced traditions in this country isn't it about time we stopped picking on Padstow. Until a few years go hardly anyone knew about it including many Padstow people. Not one of the MP's or peope who have 'reported' it to the police or CRE have actually ever been to see it. It has all been done on inaccurate hearsay. If you want to criticise it, then come and see it and find out exactly what it is all about before you make your decision. This year Mike O'Connor has amended the Wikipedia entry about it and added some sources you may wish to research.
And Surreysinger, I am in Cornwall. Think you might have guessed though!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:07 AM

"Guising comes from the term to disguise, and as in Cornwall the easist and most readily available thing to cover faces with was dust from the mine workings, black it is. As this was a form of begging from your neighbours and the people you worked for, people would go in disguise so they would not be recognised."

I know that this is one of the received wisdoms about blacking up, but how true is it? As I said earlier, the piece in EDS said that there were only a few documented cases of blacking up associated with morris before the advent of minstrelsy in Britain in the mid 19th century.

Can anyone clever illuminate, please? (And by clever, I mean I'd be grateful if you have attributable sources for your information.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:34 AM

No one has yet replied to Michael Morris - funny that.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

Cats has made when of the clearest and most useful contributions to this thread.

I would simply make the point again; Some people are uneasy and some people are offended when white people black up.

People may have blacked up for a long time for reasons we only have some undertsanding of. In this country, now, we spend less time thinking about how cultures can offend each other than I think we need to. I suggest no offence would be caused by rainbowing up.

Mike Morris also makes good points and yes it is a two way thing. Men of many faiths and cultures treat women badly and I presume we spaek out when we think it matters and we might have some effect. None of us think that rainbowing rather than blacking will change anything much but we choose to make this point amongst many others.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

Oh,I think that several of us have addressed Michael Morris's comments and been ignored. The prevalent attitude seems to be.
a) We're not offending anyone.
b) Those who are offended, have no right to be.
Kind of deteriorates into name calling after that.
Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry.
As for great Britain not taking part in the slave trade. Your joking, right? Britannia really did rule the waves and it is a very sad truth that we were the Slave Traders.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

Thanks for coming back on that Cats - I was rather hoping you would, as I'm well aware that you're from that neck of the woods!! Very informative and useful.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

One of the most well documented cases of blacking up in Cornwall actually comes from the Britannia Coconut Dancers of Bacup. Their dances were, reputably, brought up from Cornwall by the Cornish miners who went all over the world in the 17 and early 18th centuries. That is why they black up and wear black trousers and tops and black their hands as well. Another form of guising, would have been to wear masks, but not in this part of the country. Some of the most amazing guise masks I have seen were in the mountains in Bulgaria. The tradition of guising is well documented in Cornwall and other towns, not only Padstow, have guising traditions still which take other forms. E.g. In the twin villages of Kingsand and Cawsand at New Year, just about every single person in the area dresses up and goes out into the streets. If you ask the older people why they do it you might get the answer, 'because my family have been doing this for centuries' and if you ask the teenagers they will tell you it is because 'it has always been done'.   Virtually the same thing but in their own words. If you google mummers in Cornwall you will come up with the words, in dialect, to the 1760 Cornish Mummers Play which has a character called Jambo, who is black faced. He calls for money, ie begging. The original of this is in the Public Records Office in Truro. As I suggested, you might like to look up the excellent references given by Mike on the Wikipedia site which will give you historic authenticity, although as you are still asking for it, I presume you have already looked at them? It also seems that people are confused as to what happens on Mummers day. There is no dancing nor is there a play. A small group of people, about 25 or so, black up and walk through the town playing and singing. The majority of songs they sing are regarded by folkies as 'Cornish' [ and that's a whole new topic]. They have with them collecting tins in which they collect money for local charities or to be given to local families in need, i.e. they walk the streets and go into the pubs, blacked up and guising. In other parts of Cornwall guising would mean dancing through the streets and there are collesctions of Guise dance tunes available from Merv Davey, and Cam Kernewek. Merv is the Piper who leads the Cornish Gorsedd and was honoured as a Bard for sevices to Cornish Music, as was Mike O'Connor. Both of these are eminemt folklorists who have a great in depth knowledge of the music and traditions of Cornwall.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

"Darkie" is offensive. You know that and you continue to lend it your support.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

PS Jim Lad, I meant that there were no slave ships in Padstow as one of the things said about Mummers Day was that it came from when a slave ship landed in Padstow and the local people saw the slaves dancing on the quay and copied them. Now, no slave ship ever landed in Padstow, No slave ship would ever tie up in the harbour right in the middle of town, as that is where it is, and whoever heard of a slave ship letting the slaves up onto the quay to dance and relax? I am aware of the slave trade in the UK, I used to teach about it, but didn't mean that. Perhaps you didn't realise the Mummers Day / slave connection.. or rather non connection.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

Thanks Cats, you bring much education to this thread.

I would simply make the point again and again and again; Some people are uneasy and some people are offended when white people black up.


I would go with Jim Lad:

"Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry."

If the "Darkies" have become "Mummers" why can't the rainbow up?

I think it is academically, in the true sense of the word, unsound to seek knowledge from the alledged history of most Morris.

I am glad that the ealier abuse has left this thread. It was begining to feel if some of those people were just simply abusive.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:40 PM

When I said that there were lanes and roads called Darkie Lane or Darkie Ope it was meant as an example that the word Darkie in the West country has been used for centuries, whether or not you agree with the modern connotations. I was not meaning it to be taken in any other way. I think that the fact that most of the Merrymakers now have black faces with a white cross, i.e. our national flag [For Catters in other countries, Cornwall has its own recognised flag which is black with a white cross] shows they have gone out of their way not to offend but still keeping the guising trdaition and our own, internationally recognised, identity. Much more relevant to them than wearing rainbow colours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:21 PM

Just call it "DA QUAY DAY" -----It"s snappy, contemporary, & can"t possibly cause offence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

Yes, excellent point Cats. Still a little unsure. But, It's that old Ku KuxKlan thing with crosses - it is not always what is intended but how it makes people feel

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 03:45 PM

Les, a lot of Cats's points simply reiterate folklore and have no historical evidence.

I'm quoting from the article, written by Derek Schofield (EDS summer 2005):

"Forty years ago, the only English traditional, or revival, dance group who blacked up were the Britania Coco-nut Dancers from Bacup."

"There are references to people blacking up as a form of disguise in popular custom, although in Heaney and Forrest's book 'Annals of Early Morris', there is only one reference to black-faced morris dancers in the period they studied (up to 1750), and that is from the mid-sixteenth century."

The article goes on to discuss how black-faced minstrelsy took hold in America from the early 19th century, and eventually made its way to Britain and enjoyed huge popularity here by the turn of the 20th century: "no village concert was complete without a few minstrel songs."

The piece goes on to discuss the incorporation of blacking up into "traditional" events: "There would seem to be little doubt that the black faces of the traditional morris dance groups of the Welsh Border counties were at least influenced by minstrelsy. The occasional use of banjoes, bones and tambourines in these morris dances cannot be mere coincidence."

I apologise for the brief and piecemeal nature of these quotes, and for the lack of context (especially to Derek) - sadly the whole article is not available on-line. But I can tell you that it makes a pretty convincing case for the influence of minstrelsy on blacking up.

So then the question is, if blacking up and minstrelsy were once intrinsically linked, does it matter today?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

"it is not always what is intended but how it makes people feel"

Les, I appreciate your earlier comment, but this sort of hypersensitivity is never-ending. I suppose ANY cross could possibly remind someone, somewhere of the KKK. And I suppose the crescent could possibly remind someone, somewhere of Muslim involvement in the slave trade. How far do you want to go with this?

There is no right not to be offended.

Plenty of things offend me - so what?

The residents of Padstow shouldn't have to explain themselves to busybodies who neither understand nor attempt to understand this expression of their local culture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

I agree with you,Mike. Plenty of things offend me ,too.I find many of the attitudes inherent in Islam to be disturbing,frightening,totally at variance with my own cultural identity,history, and traditions, and ,in some cases,actually offensive.However, since there is A) nothing I can do about it ,and B) I have no wish foment racial conflict , I tend to let them "get on with their lives ". I do this in the fervent hope that they will accord me the same degree of tolerance and respect.By this ,I mean that, should I wish, (which I don"t !!) to black-up my face and cavort about with Morris or any other dancers,then I would do so, and I would RESPECTFULLY point out the historical precedents for my actions .If ,despite this, I was ENTREATED to stop, then I probably would. If ,however ,I was ORDERED to stop, THEN I BLOODY WELL WOULD NOT !!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM

Ruth - you jeep saying I have no eveidence and am just reiterating folklore. I have given you references to go to. I am talking about guising, not black faced morris. They are totally different things. But, I would still suggest you go to the excellent references I have suggested - twice.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

I am reminded of a brief moment in time when I was a young man in Australia. I found myself in Jindabyne, in the Snowy Mountains and stopped into a pub & ordered myself a Schooner of New. As I drew my first mouthful I heard some loud laughter coming from the far corner. As I turned to look at them, the barman said "Oh, they're building houses over there". He was referring to their conversation of course. There was no actual work being done. Just a bunch of guys who worked together and who, after a couple of drinks, could build as good a home as any. Well, at least in conversation.
I was immediately reminded of the many references to the 23rd of June in so many of the weaving songs. No weaving ever really took place in these songs. The 23rd of June was the weavers' holiday.(coincides with Summer Solstice or something) The weaving mills were horrible, noisy, dangerous, depressing places which in no way could ever lend itself to a healthy sing-song.
I realized then that we haven't really changed so much from one generation to another. In my mind, the hustle & bustle around me is entirely irrelevant. I take up very little space and am absolutely content with the simplest of pleasures. I often wonder how many of us feel the same way and are so easily distracted from life's complications by just the singing of a sweet song or the sharing of a simple story at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

"One of the most well documented cases of blacking up in Cornwall actually comes from the Britannia Coconut Dancers of Bacup. Their dances were, reputably, brought up from Cornwall by the Cornish miners who went all over the world in the 17 and early 18th centuries."

where is the evidence for this, Cat? I understand that even the Bacup dancers don't know where their dance comes from, or why it looks like it does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

A Folk story. What a fitting way to tie the end of a very loose thread which would have been pulled from many a forum or loom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

The so called afro wigs that are shown in photos, which tend to be from the 1970's, tended to be bright pink or blue, and have not been worn for years anyway...


Really cats?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

Les in Chorlton suggests that instead of "blacking up" that people should "rainbow up".
If Les wishes to advertise thae fact that he is "a friend of Dorothy" i.e. a homosexual, that is entirely his choice.
Personally, I find his suggestion totally objectionable!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:31 AM

Please explain, I am most confused.

I have dressed as a women on a number of occaisons, in a wig, in a pub popular with gay friends in Stockport. I was in a Mummers Play. Was it offensive to women? I don't think so. Is pantomime? Probably not. I am open to discussion and advice. I am with the living tradition and am happy for the Mummers Play to move as it clearly has done over hudreds of years.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:27 AM

Of course, Og Magog molly already paint their faces all sorts of colours, and wear similarly outlandish clothes. I think it takes Les's concept rather to the extreme, and responses to them are quite mixed as they are seen to deviate pretty substantially from ANY tradition (they remind me of a Monty Python sketch), but lots of people seem to enjoy their fresh, iconoclastic approach and they are certainly evidence that the whole blacking up issue is something that is being taken on board, at least by the younger generation.

Les, as a woman I am not offended by pantomime dames. I don't understand why they all seem to come from Wigan, though - maybe if I lived in Wigan I'd be offended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:43 AM

Wigan is fine place full of indep,endently minded people whom I would avoid crossing, so to speak.

I remember a Mummer's Play at Whitby Festval with "Sir" Goefrey Boycot as the Hero. It seems that many people who dig around in Mumming get bored after a while and go off on one of their own. I have to say they can never match the drama of the Antrobus Soulcakers - seriously old and wiered. Unless someone knows something else?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

I'm certainly not slating the good people of Wigan - it's just that all the panto dames I've seen (and I've seen quite a few this year, for my sins) seem to have the same accent. Even Ian McKellan - put him in a frock, he's from Wigan.

[/OT] so, do the dames black up in Cornwall?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

Good morning. Ruth, I had the info about the origins of Bacup from them. I have been trying to work out what connection you have made between Morris dancers blacking up and Mummers day. I still can't see any and there is photographic and written evidence in the archives in Padstow Museum, that the Merrymakers have always blacked their faces and this dates back hundreds of years. Perhaps you did not realise that this is a totally different tradition and has nothing to do with morris or mumming as we know it today. Has the change of name to Mummers day confused people who have never been and now link it with Mumming and Morris? Apologies to Guest pat - I didn't see that guy and I don't know when the photo was taken. If that has caused offence I am sorry, but take it from me, the curly wigs have usually been multi coloured. If you had been, you would know. As for pantomime dames.. you are now into a whole new realm. When I worked in Professional theatre none of the pantomimes I worked on have black faced dames, just exaggerated make up. I suppose it is up to the artistic director. Again, I can't see what that has to do with Mummers day ... thread drift, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

Guest Pat - an interesting photo, but it looks to me as if it's one that has been manufactured/doctored - the guy with the black Afro wig seems to have been imposed on the photo - he partially obscures the face of the chap in front of him..... so who's to say when the two (or more) parts of the photo were actually taken.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:55 AM

"the Antrobus Soulcakers - seriously old and wiered" - Great word! Now would that mean simultaneously weird and wired (see: neologisms)?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

"I still can't see any and there is photographic and written evidence in the archives in Padstow Museum, that the Merrymakers have always blacked their faces and this dates back hundreds of years."

How old is photography?

I suppose we getting no further really.

The use of blacking up seems to lie somewhere between a long time ago and Minstrelsy. The point really is, this 2007 and lots of people feel uneasy or are offended and explanations of historical significance here or in books about Padstow wont make any difference.

"Those who don't know any better, should.
Those who do know better and still continue this sort of behaviour are guilty of bigotry."
As Jim said.

What on Earth do these people think they are protecting and at what price?

We used to enslave people, put children up chimnees and burn women as witches and now we don't. although I see they are still burning catholic effegies in Lewes.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:51 AM

"I had the info about the origins of Bacup from them."

But what does that mean? Apocryphal stories are passed down through generations, yes, but is there any documented evidence to support the claim?

There are wonderful stories to explain the existence of many of our folk customs. Many have been grafted on by way of explanation - even to the participants themselves. That doesn't make them true.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

"We used to enslave people, put children up chimnees and burn women as witches and now we don't."

Pouring it on a bit thick, Les. But if you're really concerned about slavery, child labor, and the burning alive of women, these things are going on today - not in Padstow, though.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Joybell
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

Can't find the comment here on this thread - but I might have missed it --

Time for a reminder that "Darkie Days" is not a reference to people but to "Dark Days".

Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

And in the UK darkie is a well known racist name for black people. Most commonly heard by saturday night comics in the 1960's. Combine that with blacking the faces and wearing afro wigs puts it into context.

They have changed the name and dropped the afro wigs. They are holding onto the bastion of the blacking up. They wouldn't do it in any inner city area of the UK. They feel safe doing it somewhere where the black population is at a guess 1%.

If they are that far behind enlightenment they are to be pitied really.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:47 PM

I don't believe the photograph of Padstow highlighted by Guest Pat has been doctored. It was printed in the Guardian on 3 January 2007, and that newspaper is quite scrupulous at not doctoring images. I have seen this photo printed before.
So, a few observations ....
Cats: there can be no photographic evidence for the merrymakers blacking up for hundreds of years. There is no evidence that the Bacup nutters' dance came from Cornwall ... apocraphal stories ... most customs seem to have them ...

Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another.
The question is ...has the blacking up transcended its origin and now have a life of its own?
Does this practice offend sectors of our society? (And I don't mean just the black members of our society ... white people might also be offended).
And if so, are we prepared to do anything about it?

For whatever reason, the people of Padstow are doing something about it - and well done to them. I have spoken to many people who either live in Padstow or visit the town and they say that there is no intention to cause offence, which I have no reason to disagree with. But who decides what gives offence and to whom?
Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 06:37 PM

"But who decides what gives offence and to whom?"

Precisely. Anyone likely to be offended can refrain from attending, viewing footage, or reading accounts of the event.

There must be some more worthy cause than hassling these people.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:03 PM

I don't think that's Derek's point, Mike. I think he's saying that although the intention to offend may not be present, offence may still be incurred.

So it's a question of what we do about actions that, for perfectly good reasons, may cause offence, whether that offence is intentional or not. It's an issue that transcends Padstow, and actually goes right to the heart of English traditional culture, inclusiveness and tolerance.

I'm sorry if such PC concepts cause offence. None was intended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

I asm most surprised that people who describe themselves as "folkies" should be so adamant in trying to change history, when they should be defending it against the less knowledgeable.
To try and black out, or whitewash, (Two words which are bound to give offence to someone or other!) part of Britain's history is the same as those who state that the Holocaust never happened!

You sit around and sing about a the lives of farmers, fishermen, miners, ag. labs. etc. and yet you know nothing about the ways in which they had to work. Most of you could not even cook yourselves a meal in the way in which your great-grandmother could, let alone show the resourcefulness and the abilities of your recent ancestors!
Be proud of what our ancestors did for us, their traditions and their way of life. There are too many bleeding-heart liberals (with a small "L") armed with a blue pencil to eradicate and censor that of which "they" do not approve.
I would have thought folkies were above that mentality!

When you can convince the rest of the world that you have spent your time campaigning against the lack of education of women in certain faiths, the circumcision of women, so-called "Honour killings" then others might believe that you have a real, rather than a fashionable, interest.

At the same time you would be expected to buy your food locally, from the nearest farmer rather than from the supermarket. Your meat should come from the butcher, not in a supermarket plastic wrapper. Remember that many supermarket animals are the product of deforestation of South American rainforests, to the detriment of the climate affecting each and every one of us!

I hope that you do not wear fashionable clothes, since most of them are made by child labour or by people having to work for pennies per day. Slave labour, in other words!
Do you buy your furniture from some do-it-yourself shed or flat-pack shop? Is their timber Forestry Stewardship Council registered, from sustainable resources? Why not buy it from your local cabinet-maker, as the antique of tomorrow?

Perhaps, when you can honestly answer that you do all of the above, and more, then you can preach to the rest of us as to what we should do and how we should do it.

Until then, please be quiet!

Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

I'm not offended, and even if I was you are not obligated to apologize.

"So it's a question of what we do about actions that, for perfectly good reasons, may cause offence, whether that offence is intentional or not."

Who exactly are 'we'? The only relevant 'we' in this story are the residents of Padstow. If they choose to alter or even abandon this event, that's their business. If they choose to continue as they have done in the past, that's their business, too.

"It's an issue that transcends Padstow, and actually goes right to the heart of English traditional culture."

Are you on a similar mission to find and root out 'offensive' elements in other, non-English cultures? I'm guessing not - after all, that would be 'insensitive' and 'non-inclusive'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

Colyn, you hit the nail right on the head, much better than I could. So I'm bowing out of this discussion. I will be interested to see if anyone cares to respond thoughtfully to your post.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 07:56 PM

Thank you, Michael Morris.
However, I am expecting not "thoughtful" but "vitriol".
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

Why are you so defensive, Mike? No one is claiming that other cultures are perfect, but this particular discussion is about an aspect of English traditional culture. It's not about trying to undermine or destroy tradition. If traditions are living things, then they grow and evolve and change with the times. And if there is an aspect of a tradition that has the potential for causing offence, what is so wrong with interrogating it? What are you afraid of, exactly?

I dsagree with you that the only 'we' in this discussion are the people of Padstow. Padstow is one blacking-up tradition. There are many. In this day and age, it is absolutely right that we should be debating whether this is a practice that is appropriate in 21st century Britain. I'm not saying that it necessarily ought to be abolished, funnily enough. I'm saying that it's a debate that ought to be allowed to happen, with the fullness of evidence and research to be called upon, rather than folklore, conjecture and apocrypha.

I'll tell you why I think it's important in the context of English traditional cultures: because this is such an interesting time in terms of defining the English identity. I work with schools comprised of children of different backgrounds and faiths, but we bring English traditional dance and song into those schools. I think it's very important that both children from indigenous backgrounds AND those from diverse cultures get to experience the traditions of this country, so that they understand that these traditions belong to them, and comprise part of their heritage, whether they were born here or not.

Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?

No one is trying to "whitewash" anything. Yes, these things were once a very popular part of popular culture. But that doesn't mean they should be forever perpetuated. "Traditional" does not equal sacrosanct.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:45 AM

You wont be surprised that I am with Ruth.

I am interested in Bonecruncher Colyn's list of what we must do before we can comment on blacking up. I am with him/her on practically all of that list, I do some and campaigne, a bit on others. Most Folkies seem to lie over that side too.

As for denial, I am not clear about what I appear to be denighing. The history of most these practises is rather short on evidence.

"Having looked into blacking up for the EDS feature that Ruth Archer has kindly quoted from, there is undoubtedly an influence on English folk culture from minstrelsy. Bacup may be one, Padstow mummers may be another, the 20th century traditional Border morris which has been copied by revival sides might be another."

This quote from Derek Schofield, is this Derek the Editor of the English Folk Dance and Song Society?

I think Ruth has made an important point,

"would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?"

Many of us in folk have a, perhaps unwelcome, missionary zeal about sharing our living heritage. Some of us, moved by the Blues sort English Roots music because we felt singing Delta Blues was not for us, whilst old English songs was. We sing, we dance we perform ritual plays in public because ........... well fill in your own dots.

When I danced Northwest Morris in the streets of the North West I felt their was some link with working people who came to the region in the Industrial Revolution, as migrant workers, lived a hard life and found ways of singing and dancing to celebrate. I found that the multi ethnic collections of teenagers that I taught, were interested when they saw me in the streets. I chatted to them and they never used it against me on Monday morning. Chatting to them whilst blacked up would have been at least difficult.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 05:33 AM

Derek edits English Dance and Song, the magazine of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. It was his article I quoted from earlier, so it's nice to have his contribution here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

I am sorry that a sentrence which I can see now is grammatically incorrect has caused so much confusion. If you look carefully the sentence says there is photographic and written evidence. I should have put in a comma to make it photographic, and written, I suppose. I would have thought, though, that the meaning of it was obvious. I am quite aware that photographs have not been around for centuries, although, if you want to be pernickity, they have as we are now in the 21st and photographs were around in the 19th, but I'm not that picky. There is written evidence and it can be found in Padstow museum and local collections.   There are very early photographs. Guising in Padstow is not something that came in with minstrelsy. Also, Derek, that photograph may well have been in a 2007 newspaper but it was, most definitley, not taken in recent years. It is one of those that gets pulled from files year on year and is so annoying as it just fuels the media and gives no credit for the changes.
Anyway, as I said in the beginning, and I only put in the information I have as I live in Cornwall and must be one of the very few people contributing to this thread and discussion that has been there and seen it and know the people who do it, both the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Commission For Racial Equality have examined the tradition of guising, whatever you want to call it, in Padstow and found it is not racist, nor is there any racist intent. It is an English Tradition and has no racist overtones whatsoever. Their words, not mine. I now bow out. If you really want to know what it is all about, rather than pontificate from afar... come and see it for yourselves, then make your decision. You will be made welcome.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM

Cat, before you go can you just quantify the following statement?

"There are very early photographs. Guising in Padstow is not something that came in with minstrelsy. "

What is very early in this context? I'm genuinely interested, because it's relevant to the discussion. If you have more specific information, I'd be grateful.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,floss
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

The white cross in the Cornish flag of St.Piran is to symbolise the light of christ shining into the four corners Cornwall, not related to the KKK...although that will probably offend someone, by the look of things ! And I think you will find that the Cornish are far from unenlightened.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM

As I said previously, and you can check this on the internet, we have the words to Cornish Mummers plays, with the names of the people who actually played the characters, from the 1780's and from this we know they were blacking faces then.   I know that there were mummers in disguise who came to my house at Christmas 1600 as I have found references to this in the Kew documents. My house was the Dower House for the Manor of Rillaton, built 1599, [try googling Rillaton Gold Cup] and the Manor goes back before 1068, was the most important Hundred in Cornwall, and is in the Doomsday Book. This year we reencated one of the plays for the village in my house at the Wassail. There are guise dance tunes and the steps which have been researched and published by Merv Davwy and Mike O'Connor from long before 1780. If you look at the Wikipedia references which I have previously suggested you will find the information there. There is also a huge amount which is just recently coming to light in the Truro Public Records Office which pre dates anything in general publication so far.[This is Really Exciting] The custodians are so excited about what is now being found that they are sending the references straight to Mike and he is researching them, which is a very slow and painstaking job.   Only a very small part of what he has found so far has been published but try Ilo Kernow for a start.. He is building an increasingly in depth history of Cornish Music and Dance. There are references, for example, to the parliamentarian troops in 1649, being sent to Padstow to quell the festivities on May day but never getting there and disappearing totally. These are in the Basing House documents. I cannot say exactly, the very first date given to Padstow but there is documented evidence that the same thing happened all over the county and Padstow is the only one that still remains in its 'original', albeit somewhat changed, form as opposed to Madron, St Ives, Kingsand, Cawsand, Looe, etc which have changed form to everyone dressing in fancy dress. There is alot in Padstow Museum and held by the Old Cornwall Societies and Helston Folk Museum. Unless you lived down here you might not be aware of our heritage and what is coming to light. Perhaps you need to visit and check it out as much of it is still in the various records.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

PS forgot to say to Floss, yes that's one interpretation of our National Flag, the St Piran's Cross. Another popular one is that it is the tin shining through the rocks. But it is ours and we do fly it proudly. If you see one at a festival come and investigate as it might just be us and we come supplied with copious amounts of Rum and Shrub

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:15 PM

I was just consulting Sreve Roud's new book, The English Year, about a completely different calendar custom, and happened upon the reference to Padstow.

He draws a very defnite link between mistrelsy and Padstow Darkie Day. He cites photographs circa 1900 of revellers in full minstrel guise, and of course discusses the songs that derived directly from minstrelsy, but i believe these have now been phased out...?

I'm not saying that this contravenes what Cat has said, but perhaps the fact that Darkie Day DID, for a significant period of its history, become entwined with the minstrelsy customs in Britain, needs to be acknowledged when discussing this (and other similar) traditions.

And it makes me ask once again: would you be happy to show Black-British or Asian-British children these pictures to familiarise them with the traditional heritage of this country, and happily defend the fact that people STILL black up as part of this tradition, but, well, it's kind of different now because at least they've stopped wearing the wigs and changed the name...?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:59 PM

Ruth Archer, I am sure you have the common sense to realise that any form of public display of music and dance will reflect the fashionable music of the time. This is why we today have "pop stars" attempting to act in pantomime and the modern, American influenced, baton-twirling majorettes in local carnivals.
Minstrel songs were popular in the 1920's and '30s - see any music book of that time for proof. I have two "News Chronicle" song books, both of which contain Negro Spirituals and Plantation Songs (quoting from the titles). A date in one is 1932 and I know the book wsa second-hand then, because it belonged to my late Father-in-Law.
So, of course, songs of years ago were likely to have been the "pop somgs" of their day, in the same way as some of our folk songs were of their time.
As time moves on, so those pop songs become old-fashioned and are no longer used.
So it is with Padstow Darkie Days.
Please stop trying to change history. Just accept that things have moved on and enjoy that which is current, in the same way as you today enjoy a particular band who, tomorrow, yu will not even look at!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM

But the defence of blacking up is historic.

Our objections are that this practice is currently offensive.

As time moves on, so those pop songs become old-fashioned and are no longer used.

rainbow up!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:14 PM

I wish at least one advocate of blacking up for Darkie Day would address Ruth's question, as to whether they would feel comfortable showing todays black/asian British children their custom.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: guitar
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

I mean it's a part of their festival, their custom as well.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

An excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface

"Blackface is a style of theatrical makeup that originated in the United States, used to affect the countenance of an iconic, racist American archetype — that of the darky or coon. Blackface also refers to a genre of musical and comedic theatrical presentation in which blackface makeup is worn. White blackface performers in the past used burnt cork and later greasepaint or shoe polish to blacken their skin and exaggerate their lips, often wearing woolly wigs, gloves, tailcoats, or ragged clothes to complete the transformation. Later, black artists also performed in blackface.

Blackface was an important performance tradition in the American theater for over 100 years and was also popular overseas. Stereotypes embodied in the stock characters of blackface minstrelsy played a significant role in cementing and proliferating racist images, attitudes and perceptions worldwide. In some quarters, the caricatures that were the legacy of blackface persist to the present day and are a cause of ongoing controversy.

By the mid-20th century, changing attitudes about race and racism effectively ended the prominence of blackface performance in the U.S. and elsewhere. However, it remains in relatively limited use as a theatrical device, mostly outside the U.S., and is more commonly used today as edgy social commentary or satire. Perhaps the most enduring effect of blackface is the precedent it established in the introduction of African American culture to an international audience, albeit through a distorted lens. Blackface minstrelsy's groundbreaking appropriation, exploitation, and assimilation of African-American culture — as well as the inter-ethnic artistic collaborations that stemmed from it — were but a prologue to the lucrative packaging, marketing, and dissemination of African-American cultural expression and its myriad derivative forms in today's world popular culture".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

And here's a Mudcast post reposted without comment:

Subject: RE: Tune Req: Oh! Joe the boat's a going over
From: GUEST,Dave Sunshine - PM
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

A version of the 'A' part of the tune is also used for the tune known as 'Clee Hill' as collected from Dennis Crowther who is from that area, which is not far from Ludlow in South Shropshire. The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin' The use of the term molly instead of morris,was common in Shropshire and I have met people who remembers 'Going out molly-dancing' in East Shropshire in the 1930s-40s

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM

Here's another repost:

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 07:59 PM

I'm been away from a computer for most of the day, and have just read posts since earlier this morning.

And I feel a need to comment again about this subject..

I would like to first say that I knew nothing of the European custom of blackening before joining Mudcat 6 months ago. All of know about these customs I have learned from reading these posts, and reading links that have been given on this and other Mudcat threads, and reading one book on South African music that included a chapter on 19th century minstrelsy in Britain.

I acknowledge my lack of direct information, and like Brucie wrote upthread, I am trying to learn more about these customs.

I would, for instance, I would like to know the titles of other books and articles that discuss the past & present relationships between blackening up and the American minstrel traditions For surely such connections existed and appear to still exist, perhaps as new departures from old ways, and perhaps not..

I would also like to know if any studies have been done to assess the opinions of British people of color regarding blackening up. Futhermore, have any scholarly studies been done to assess the impact, if any, of blackening up on the self -esteem and group esteem of Black Britons and other British people of color? It just seems to me that this subject is too important to be relegated to anecdotal stories about whether a person's Black or Indian friends or acquaintances feel offended or do not feel offended by blackening up customs.

Also, it seems to me that people should be interested in whether there were any short term or long term consequences to Whites as a result of their participation in or general knowledge of these customs {for instance, are their differences between the racial attitudes and levels of multi-cultural acceptance of those who participate or do not participate in these customs?}

That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Note that I said "insensitivity" and not "racism"...

This is another time where it would be helpful if Mudcat had posters who are Black Britons and other people of color from Europe and from elsewhere. That being said, I believe this is a HUMAN issue irregarless of one's race.. The central question to me of blackening is what is most important: ancient traditions or treating people with dignity and respect. My concern is that people [individuals and specific groups of people]be treated with dignity and respect.
If, in my opinion, a tradition does not do that, then, as far as I'm concerned, to hell with the tradition.

And this too I believe-given the history of the United States, if private groups were to publicly perform such blackening disguises here, then lawsuits would be filed to halt that practice. And I would be glad about that [and might even initiate or join in such a law suit].

El Greko asked where do we draw the line..and I don't know the answer to that question. All I know is that blackening up is offensive to me whether it is done by [perhaps] well meaning White people or [perhaps] well meaning African Americans who are members of the New Orleans Mardi Gras Zulu kewe.

I accept the fact that some people here at Mudcat and elsewhere may feel that it is offensive of me to have this viewpoint.

I am willing to agree that we will not agree on this issue.

thread.cfm?threadid=78748
Padstow Darkie Days [2005]

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

"Please stop trying to change history."

Umm, i don't think that's what I'm doing. I've actually pointed to two respected researchers into English calendar custom, one of whom has been good enough to coment here, and their research into blacking up and its connection to minstrelsy.

And as I've said, one of them has actually drawn A DIRECT LINK, supported by photographic evidence, between Darkie Day and minstrelsy.

Now, from what I can tell, it's the people of Padstow (or Cat in particular) who want to pretend that this is not true. that "Darkie" only ever referred to dark nights, and that blacking up in Padstow was only ever a disguise from employers and was NEVER about racial stereotyping.

So tell me again - who's trying to change history?

Denial - it ain't just a river in Egypt.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

I know I said I was gone, but sanctimonious pieties of Ruth Archer and Derek Schofield have driven me back.

The evidence noted by Cats indicates that "blacking up" preceded minstrelsy. Even Ruth Archer cited a reference to the practice from the mid-seventeenth century. Certainly, these and related practices became conflated with minstrelsy in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. And this, if I understand her, is at least one of the pillars upon which her arguement stands. "Darkie Days" is related historically - to a certain, if unclear degree - to black face minstrelsy, and hence is 'inappropriate' and worthy of censor (self-censor or otherwise). Alright then, let's look at North America and consider a hypothetical scenario -

a. minstrelsy is offesive
b. cultural practices and artifacts related to or derived from minstrelsy are inappropriate and should be ended.

Now let's take a look at what we lose. Blackface minstrelsy was far more complex than the Ruth Archers and Derek Schofields of the world would have us believe. Minstrelsy was one of the primary mediums (not the first and not the only, though) through which white and black musical forms and styles cross-fertilized and mingled. The distinctive folk and popular forms of North American music were created through this process of hybridization. Do you enjoy jazz, ragtime, country, blues and rock and roll? Minstrelsy lies within the family tree of all. But minstrelsy is offensive, so into the garbage they go.

For a more balanced view of the significance of minstrelsy than you'll find in the screeds of Ruth Archer and others, try the following:

Eric Lott, Love and Theft (New York and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993)

William Mahar, Behind the Burnt Cork Mask (Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1999).

Dale Cockrell, Demons of Disorder (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1997)

Hans Nathan, Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelsy (Norman, Oklahoma: University of Oklahoma Press, 1962)

"Early Banjo Tunes and American Syncopation," The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 42, No. 4 (Oct 1956), pp. 455-472

And there's plenty more where that came from. You might want to do a little homework before making blanket statements about a topic of which you seem to know so little. But that requires time and effort of mind, and it's so much easier to pile up on someone else's tradition and take some local custom out of context for your own ego gratification.

I'm not even defending blacking up, I'm defending the right of the residents of Pastow to conduct local traditions as they see fit. Traditions develop and evolve out of give and take between myriad competing and mutually reinforcing influences. "Darkie Days" may fade away, or it may evolve into something related yet qualitively different. Either way, it's noone else's goddamn business. I would not introduce "blacking up" into anyone's school program - and noone has suggested it should be. I am arguing that a local event should be understood in a local context. Someone who really had any respect for cultural differences wouldn't be trying to impose their luke-warm, politically correct, university jargon-ridden misunderstandings on someone else's party.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:38 PM

Excellently and eloquently said, Michael.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:14 PM

Nobody suggested blacking up should be introduced into the local school programme - it was asked whether the exponents of it would feel comfortable doing so.

If an exponent of it would not feel comfortable doing so, why would they not feel comfortable doing so? Afterall we are being told it is part of our heritage worth preserving , so why should it not be taught and celebrated?

Could it be for the same reason that the name has been changed and the afro wigs dropped? Because it causes offence.

Seeing as no one has yet been able to answer this question we can only speculate.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:21 PM

No one is talking about the musical pedigree of minstrelsy. Fact is, dressing up to mock another culture is racially offensive. That's why they took it off the telly. That's why some of the Americans here have said you could probably get arrested for doing this in the states. And that's why people like Cat, bless him, have become apologists for the practice (it was only ever about disguise, and the afro wigs were rainbow-coloured - course they were, love).

"cultural practices and artifacts related to or derived from minstrelsy are inappropriate and should be ended."

nope - just the bit where you dress up as a caricature of another racial group to belittle, stereotype and demean them. Umm, that would mainly be the offensive bit. Oh, and the songs which are racially offensive. You better hang on to those, too. But anything else, I'm good with. All your sources for the positive impacts of minstrelsy are just a smokescreen, because what we're talking about is specifically the BLACKING UP. That's the bit we're interrogating. I was specifically challenging the assertion that blacking up, in Padstow and elsewhwere, was not about indulging a racist pastime, but was a completely unrelated practice, to do with miners, and disguise. Now, there may well be some truth in that. But what there is also incontravertable evidence of is that, at some point, Darkie Day became associated with a different kind of blacking up - the kind that is a nasty, offensive racial stereotype. Now, once this becomes clear, the idea of perpetuating the practice of blacking up in 2007 has completely different sociopolitical overtones, and it's not just about the people of Padstow. it's about the wider context, and what we, as a SOCIETY, are prepared to tolerate.

Don't tell me it's none of my business because I don't live in Padstow. The traditions of this country belong to everyone. It's our cultural heritage, and it's one I want to be proud of.

"I would not introduce "blacking up" into anyone's school program - and noone has suggested it should be."

No, no one has - but that wasn't actually the question, was it? You've chosen deliberately to twist the question so that you don't have to answer it, and I can only presume that this is because you have no answer. Which is fine - but at least be honest.

Finally, can I ask you to keep your comments on topic, and not resort to personal insults and offensiveness. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:39 PM

"Now, would you be comfortable introducing a Black-British or British-Asian child to the many blacking-up traditions? What about those rooted in minstrelsy? The nigger songs? Come to think of it, is this something you'd like White British children to celebrate as part of their heritage?"

I'm afraid it was you who went off topic with this set of hypothetical questions. The conversation was about a specific practice in a specific time and place, a practice that I insisted should be seen in that narrow context. Be that as it may, and since my initial response to this set of questions proved unsatisfactory to you, I'll give it another shot. My response - It would depend on the context. If blacking-up was presented as one among many inversion rituals and practices, I believe it would suitable to present graphic and video evidence of the practice. Other examples would include "whiting up" in Africa and the Caribbean, Native American gender reversal practices would also be up for discussion (by children, I'll assume you mean up to high school age - there are a number of topics that probably aren't suitable for small children, and they don't all involve race, gender, strange clothing and face paint). Another example: If I was teaching nineteenth-century American history, yes I would let them see and hear examples of blackface minstrelsy - it's important and its influence resounds to this day.

"All your sources for the positive impacts of minstrelsy are just a smokescreen, because what we're talking about is specifically the BLACKING UP. That's the bit we're interrogating."

If you've indeed read the sources I listed, you would know that each does not so much argue for a 'positive impact' as argue for the significance and complexity of minstrelsy. Eric Lott digs into the meaning minstrelsy held for performers and the audience, writing that "the social unconscious of blackface suggests that whites involved in minstrelsy were from unenthusiastic about black cultural practices." Hence the title. From William Mahar, minstrel performances "were simply too diverse to support the hypothesis that all burnt cork comedy focused on racial issues." Minstrel groups in some cases performed Italian operas, for crying out loud. Dale Cockrell traced minstrelsy's origins to English and northern Irish mumming plays, and argued that the conventional understanding of minstrelsy as an expression of "unrelenting hatred of blacks by working-class urban white males . . . (is) ahistorical. It ascribes meaning without understanding context . . . ." Hans Nathan dealt extensively with the musical side of minstrelsy (the enduring and most significant aspect, in my opinion), and found contributions and antecedents traceable to white European and black African sources.

"Fact is, dressing up to mock another culture is racially offensive."

Now you are claiming to know what you cannot know - the motivations and feelings of Padstow residents. I wonder, however, if you would similarly attack the Mardi Gras Indians of New Orleans (and I'll be very disappointed with you if you don't know what I'm talking about).

"Finally, can I ask you to keep your comments on topic, and not resort to personal insults and offensiveness. Thank you."

I am sorry if you don't like my tone and my language, but all my posts have been on topic. We just understand the topic differently.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

I repeat a question I asked in 2005: Have there been any research studies of the impact of UK blackening up traditions on self-esteem and group-esteem of people of colour in the UK and on White people in the UK? If so, what were those studies and what were their results?

It seems to me that such studies would be beneficial prior to or in the context of pre-university as well as university educational settings having any educational experiences that invlolve videos, photographic displays, performances,and open discussion about blackening up traditions as they relate or don't relate to 19th century minstrelsy traditions in the US and in the UK.

The http://www.britishcouncil.org/home-diversity-areas-of-activity-race.htm may be one resource that can be used in such an open discussion about racism. Here are some excerpts from that website:


"The vocabulary available for considering and discussing issues to do with race and ethnicity is sensitive and changes over time. It can also sometimes be a matter of argument and disagreement, and often therefore unclear and inadequate.

The same word means or implies different things to different people. So a term which is unproblematic and indeed positive for one person may be questionable or offensive for another...

Institutional racism
In addition to the recognition of direct and indirect forms of discrimination, it is widely acknowledged that institutional racism is a reality in the UK. The inquiry into the murder of Stephen Lawrence a young, Black British man highlighted this and offered the following definition of such racism:

"Institutional racism consists of the collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviours which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness, and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people."

-snip-

Wouldn't discussions about blackening up traditions in educational settings get around to the question of whether such customs wittingly or unwittingly promote racist setereotyping?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:24 AM

"If blacking-up was presented as one among many inversion rituals and practices, I believe it would suitable to present graphic and video evidence of the practice."

Good point Mike. But we are not. "Darkie Days" are and have been a very public event as is the Oss. Many of us have travelled many miles to see these events. They are nationally and probably internationally known and reported.

We all seem to accept that the origins of blacking up have roots in English history and Minstrelsy. You have pointed out that Minstrelsy contributed much to American Culture, so it did. Black People have contributed so much that almost no area of 19 - 20C music would be possible with out that contribution. During that period Black People were and continue to be exploited and to have been the victims of racial discrimination. But I guess we all agree about this?

So, where are we know? A living tradition exists in Cornwall. It has evolved over hundreds of years. Its practitioners, have responded to a greater understanding, have decided to stop wearing "Afro" wigs and calling the Event "Darkie Days" even though they believe they have innocent historic reasons for using that name.

What ever discussion went on within the "Darkie Days" community that resulted in the loss of wigs and change of name would not that discussion explore and reject blacking up for the same reasons that they rejected wigs and Darkie Days?

Look, you seem to have conceded the point about offence.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:35 AM

There are two issues here. One is the act itself, and the other is the desire (or not) to cause offence.

I do not believe that the good people of Padstow set out, in 2007, deliberately to cause offence. Nor do I believe that the people who took part in minstrelsy necessarily hated blacks. We agree there. My grandad, as it happens, was an enthusiastic performer in minstrel shows. And you want to talk photographic evdence, I've got loads. I don't believe he was a deliberate and conscious racist - but that doesn't mean that what he did wasn't a racist act, deliberately or otherwise.

My point about Padstow, and the other blacking up traditions in England, is that many of them are rooted in or are deeply entwined with minstrelsy. But a lot of the people who take part in them today will tell you that this is not the case, citing the old chestnuts about disguise as the reason why they do what they do. This isn't necessarily a deliberate attempt to hide the truth - many of them probably believe this, as it's what they've been told themselves, possibly by older generations who wish to protect their tradition or who might simply be embarrassed about the truth.

My argument is a simple one: if people want to continue blacking up, they should be willing to acknowledge that, at one time, their tradition may well have been rooted in a practice which would be deeply offensive to many people in Britain today. They need to accept this as part of the heritage of what they do, rather than sweeping it under the carpet. Now, if that bothers them, perhaps they should think about stopping. Or choose a different colour. And if it doesn't bother them, perhaps they ought to ask themselves why.

"If blacking-up was presented as one among many inversion rituals and practices, I believe it would suitable to present graphic and video evidence of the practice."

Again, this is not my question. I asked whether, in introducing children to English traditional song and dance, you'd be happy to see blacking-up traditions, with all their chequered history, presented as something to be equally proud of. Would you be happy to show those early photographs of Padstow to a black child? It's that simple.

Finally, a few people have said that it would be interesting to hear from a black person what they feel about all of this. Well, the article from EDS that I quoted earlier interviewed several people about the practice, including a dance caller named Nigel Hogg. This is what he had to say:

"I have watched many different dance groups around the country, and on certain occasions I have seen groups black up to perform. As a mixed race man I do find this tradition offensive because I see it as a parody mocking people of colour. I would imagine that the people who perform these dances are not racists, and on some levels the people involved have not even though about the implications these dances might have to people of colour.

The bottom line is that we now live in multicultural Britain, and although these forms are traditional, they are not really acceptable anymore. Times, attitiudes and trends move on, and now is time to move forward, not just in dance and song. If there was a display of this kind of dancing in an inner-city area, how would it go down? In my opinion it would be taken very badly and many people would be offended, because as i see it, it is a backward step. I do not think that blacking up to dance achieves multi-racial harmony."

So, not just us white middle class do-gooders finding it offensive, then. I don't know about you, but i am always really chuffed to see black and Asian people at traditional events, from festivals to calendar customs. I think it says something incredibly positive about the culture we live in. The idea of people of different backgrounds trying to engage positively with English traditional culture being confronted with a blacking-up tradition that has its roots in minstrelsy is incredibly depressing.

But maybe that's just me.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:12 PM

Azizi -

I don't believe any topics should be out of bounds in a university setting. To give an example what this can lead to, in a school I once attended, an instructor was chastised for presenting documentary evidence from the WPA about the daily lives of enslaved African-Americans. It just happened to be an excellent source to understand the experience from the point of view of former slaves, but because some students may have found the material offensive, an administrator came down on that professor.

Les -

Regarding offence and conceding the point, I don't know if you are refering to the possible offensiveness or blacking-up or lesser subject of my possibly offensive tone. Whatever the case, I'll say what I said before - there is no right not to be offended. As I've also said, many things offend me. I am offended, for example, by evangelical Christians who claim divine mandate for aggressive wars on the other side of the globe, but I would not shut down their churches.

Ruth Archer -

I have tried to answer your question as thoughtfully as possible. I'll try on last time: Again, it depends on the context. I would not show this material to young children because it is not age-appropriate. I thought I made this clear, but perhaps not.

"If there was a display of this kind of dancing in an inner-city area, how would it go down? In my opinion it would be taken very badly and many people would be offended, because as i see it, it is a backward step."

Off topic and not relevant. This event is not held in an inner-city area, it's held in Padstow. It's a local event not meant to offend anyone. I highly doubt any of the particpants are planning an excursion to any place where the locals would be upset by the proceedings.

Finally, the deeper roots of blacking up are antecedent to minstrelsy. Those who black up nowadays do not identify with minstrelsy, as far as I can tell. I would grant them enough respect to take them at their word.

And that's it for me. If you want the last word, Ruth Archer or anyone else, go ahead and take it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:31 PM

Michael you have conceded that aspect of "Darkie Days" has been offensive by changing the name and part of the dress because I guess you felt ti was offensive.

Please tell us that the community that puts on this public event will re-consider blacking up because that is far more offensive.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:22 PM

What a disappointing response michael. You have admitted the event is not suitable for young children to be shown anywhere other than Padstow. But it is shown to young children in Padstow.

Thereby allowing future generations to think your 'tradition' is acceptable. It isn't. And that is why it wouldn't be tolerated in any city area, as you well know.

Padstow is part of the UK and has responsibilities as such. No wonder Cornwall has such a race crime problem. Wake up and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:25 PM

"I highly doubt any of the particpants are planning an excursion to any place where the locals would be upset by the proceedings."

So it's okay, as long as no black people see it? Maybe Padstow ought to put up signs round the village warning anyone of non-white British origin not to visit, just in case. "Stay away on Darkie Day" - that has a catchy ring.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:34 PM

Is anyone prepared to tell us which songs are sung on "Mummres Day"?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:56 PM

Guest Pat -

I wouldn't have Mardi Gras Indians march on a Navajo reservation either. I hate the idea that culture should be homogenized to make it inoffensive to everyone. The same reason I don't like McDonalds, Disneyland and neocons any more than I like political correctness and marxism.

If you haven't noticed, the rest of the 21st century has race crime problems and much more, but I doubt any of that can be blamed on "Darkie Days"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:34 PM

Songs Michael, tell us about the songs?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,pat
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:45 PM

We didn't simply look at where the most racist incidents occurred. We compared those numbers to the size of the ethnic minority population affected by them, to show relatively who was most at risk. What emerged was a clear picture of rural racism, in which areas such as Devon and Cornwall, Northumbria, Cumbria and Durham, with small ethnic minority populations, had some of the biggest problems.

Four years on, as we count down to another election - one in which immigration has been put into play by both major parties - the time has come to take stock. We have repeated the exercise, using Home Office data quietly released over the past few weeks. The result? Very little has improved and in places the situation is much worse.

The above article from The Guardian..but then you wouldn't be intersted or ashamed of that would you Michael?

Enjoy your tradition.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

As they chant at City matches:
Michael, Michael give us a song
Colyn, Colyn, give us a song

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:40 PM

Perhaps I was misunderstood.

I posted this respost without any comment but I'm interested in reading any comment that supporters of blackening up have about it.


Subject: RE: Tune Req: Oh! Joe the boat's a going over
From: GUEST,Dave Sunshine - PM
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

"...The tune was used by the morris/molly dancers from Clee Hill area and in 'pre-PC' days was known as 'The niggerin' tune' as the dancers went out with blacked-up faces and called it 'Goin' out a-niggerin'".

-snip-

And now I will post my comments in the form of questions:

Is this area near Padstow? Is this blackening up tradition separate from that of Padstow? Do these people still blacken up? Were these molly/morris performers singing minstrel songs? Do they still sing these types of songs Are these songs different than those that used to be sung or are still sung in Padstow?

Don't you find the terms 'The niggerin' tune' and 'Goin' out a-niggerin'" "offensive?

What kind of messages does this give to people in your country and people in the rest of the world about respect for other people? What kind of message does it give to folks who support this because it's tradition, and to children in those towns who see this support?

And will we still be having this discussion twenty years from now when those children and my grandchildren become adults?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Goose Gander
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:01 PM

Les, you know I don't live in Padstow, and Guest Pat you know that now as well. The songs? Ask someone who sings them, I sing my own songs. I'm an American and I sing American songs (or American versions of British songs). Anyone who has followed this thread knows that I do not claim this tradition as my own, that was never the point of my argument. As for crime, anyone who victimizes others - regardless of ethnicity, religion, age, gender or anything else - deserves to be arrested, tried and convicted. I'm willing to bet that my views on criminal justice are sterner than yours.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 04:09 PM

But Michael the sings cannot be passed by. Sorry, didn't realise you were American. This thread is long and and have forgotten how far we have travelled.

Colyn is from They parts can he give us a song?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:35 PM

Colyn is NOT from "they parts". Oi be 'Ampshire and proud of it!
However, like many others, I would defend to the utmost those British (and Cornish) traditions which survive.
Too frequently we see the loss of tradition duer to "political correctnes", for which The Guardian newspaper must take a very large proportion of the blame.
Regarding so-called "Afro" wigs, if they are so offensive then why are they so frequently seen worn by supporters at any large sporting match? Similarly, the ginger wigs topped by a tartan Tam-o'-Shanter are frequently seen on the heads of football and Rugby crowds. Are these an insult to Scots? From my observatioons it is the Scots who are wearing them!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:34 AM

The afro wigs at sporting events are in the colours of the playing teams, not worn by someone with a blacked up face singing nigger songs. The teams playing are always a good mix of black and white players.

Are you really trying to draw comparison with that and a group of white people in a highly non black area (known for it's racial intolerance) wearing them with blacked faces?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cats
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 04:49 AM

I did say I would bow out of this thread but I am able to tell you what songs. Fact, not opinion. This year and last year they were 'Camborne Hill', 'Trelawney', 'The Old Grey Duck', 'The White Rose', all Cornish Songs were chosen so noone could even suggest they had any racist overtones whatsoever. Local songs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM

Absolutley no "Nigger" songs then? Not one at all?

So, only the blacking up is left?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Winston
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:46 AM

Yawn

Please pull the plug on this tedious thread

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:36 AM

Is this area near Padstow? Is this blackening up tradition separate from that of Padstow? Do these people still blacken up? Were these molly/morris performers singing minstrel songs? Do they still sing these types of songs Are these songs different than those that used to be sung or are still sung in Padstow?

Clee Hill "niggering" is several hundred miles and a hundred years away from present day Padstow. The Clee Hill tradition was not singing but molly/morris DANCING. The similarities are that both customs occurr(ed) in the depths of winter, and both use(d) face blackening.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cllr
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:38 PM

To prove the point that blacking up is over a 1000 yrs old all this information is checkable especially writen records at Elgin



All quotes from Professor Ronald Hutton in 'Stations of the Sun – a History of the Ritual Year in Britain'. He is at University of Bristol – the most prestigious history dept in any UK university.

8th c. Wassailing mentioned in Beowulf

1263        Mumming first recorded in Troyes where the corporation banned it among the populace.

1320        Peter de Langtoft written description of Wassailing

1347        Edward III introduces Mumming into the court using masks of women, men, angels, animal heads and wild men.

1377 The Common Council sends 130 men to salute Richard II ' to go Mumming with the said prince'

1405        Mumming banned from streets of London, Bristol and Chester as the 'combination of dark nights, dark faces and revellers in disguise afforded marvellous opportunity for crime'

1414        Lollard heretics plotted a coup at Eltham Palace ' under colour of Mumming'

1508 Scotland man hanged for stealing whilst under the guise of Mumming.

1599                 a court at Elgin 'forbade guising' as this was the third time in 5 years people had stolen and 'every one of those before had been defied by revellers disguised by blackened faces'

1606        Mummers in Aberdeen 'they presume to mask or disguise themselves'

1655         Calne, Wiltshire dispute between ale house keeper over payment by mummers

1657 reference to mummers from North Aston in Oxfordshire and Frome in Somerset

1659 Mummers in Weston Underwood, Bucks


I have more information which i would like to discuss on further points later. This evidenced information establish the antecedents of mumming/guising/guysing/black - up go back to at least 800 AD

Can you all accept that blacking up in uk traditions is over a thousand years old.? Cllr

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM

Can you accept that combined with afro wigs, nigger songs and the name darkie day it can cause offence?

Can you accept the nigger songs, afro wigs and name was changed because of the offensive nature?

Can you accept that even people who advocate it do not think it suitable to be shown to children who do not live in Padstow?

Can you accept that no city in the UK would tolerate it?

Can you accept that taking into account the South West's racism problems they should be trying to address their problems - if they want to.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Cllr
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

The first point and only point I make in my previous post is that mumming, black face, guising is tradtional with over a thousand years of documented evidence.

Something that was either denied earlier in this thread to a lesser or greater extent depending on the poster.

This a purely factual post. I ask again can you accept that
blacking up has been in the uk tradtion for over a thousand years?
Cllr

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:13 PM

The length of time bears no relation on whether it is considered offensive today. I have no idea how long it has been in existence. 100 years, 200 years, 500 years would make no difference to it's relevance today.

I am sure lots of things were going on 1000 years ago that have no place in todays society.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: old girl 1
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:16 PM

My father 2 brothers & grandfather all worked in the mines they came home each day with black faces, I loved my black doll Topsy & so did my children, my greatgrand child now owns her & loves her, can this be wrong? Rose

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:14 AM

Many of the song collector's of old didn't collect the words because they 'were offensive'. Statues in UK churches were destroyed around Cromwell's time because they were offensive. Ditto around Athens. In 1991 important statues of Buddha were destroyed by the Taliban because they were offensive. Oscar Wilde and many others were imprisoned because their behaviour was offensive.

My personal preference would be, as Les suggested, for the people of Padstow to 'rainbow up' of their own volition. There does seem to be an arrogance that is part of human nature, though, that what we believe here and now matters much more than either the history or the future.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:40 AM

Actually, DMcG, I think it would be much healthier for the people who engage in the many blacking-up traditions around the country to acknowledge, where it exists, the less savoury history and heritage of their practice. At the moment, lots of the groups who black up deny that there were ever any negative racial overtones.

They are the ones who are denying and destroying history. Surely coming to terms with that past, and perhaps examining whether they still think that blacking up is the right thing to be doing in 2007, is the best way forward? To be able to say "this is what we used to do, but this is what we do now" wouldn't deny the history (after all, there will always be the written and photographic evidence for the history of the custom), and would pave the way for an approach in future that's more appropriate to the times we live in, rather than being shackled by some notion of preserving the past.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:23 AM

I am no position to comment on Cllr's historical list. Although I have no reason to doubt it, does any of it relate to Padstow or even Cornwall? But I nit-pick.

Cornwall may have a blacking up guising tradition, Cats alludes to this. What ever it was, until a few years ago it owed more in its survival to the minstrel tradition. Clearly they do not wish to keep that alive.

Ruth has challenged the depth of historical evidence. Azizi has, amongst other things, pointed to the complexity of racism and I have been asking why we cannot have a rainbow face or a green face. Lots of other people have made similar points. At last the abuse has stopped.

I don't know if any of those arguing against change actually have anything to do with the "Mummers" because they never say, but in the end they simply do not care if people are offended.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Mr Fox
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:45 AM

Any truth in the rumour that they have invited Jade Goody as this year's guest of honour?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:55 AM

I have been over this thread many times. I am confused. It seems to be that whenever anyone puts anything factual in or describes what is happening now, rather than in the past, people are coming back with hearsay . It is almost as though people do not want to believe the occasion has changed. It seems that very few people contributing to this thread have ever been there or have any intention of going there to see what it is really like. It seems people keep going back to very out of date information and I wonder why. If both the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Commission for Racial Equality have both made in depth studies into this and have both found over many years, that it is not racist, then I can accept that. They would have prosecuted by now if it was. It is almost as if people have latched onto something and because it no longer complies with their stereotype of it, they try to rewrite what is going on. It seems to me that the only person on this thread that has seen this or is concerned enough to explain what really happens now, rather than many years ago is Cats. He obviously cares about our heritage but it seems that some people are having a go at him beacause he is putting in pure facts which do not comply with what they want it to be. I also do not understand where the idea that the people of Padstow would not teach children about it or want it seen anywhere but there has come from. It has been presumed but why and by whom? It is almost as if people want this event to be racist and are upset that it isn't.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:36 AM

I think we have said everything their is to say. Do you peole actually care if people are offended?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:48 AM

"My personal preference would be, as Les suggested, for the people of Padstow to 'rainbow up' of their own volition."

Perhaps they just don't want to look like hippies. What's wrong with the Cornish Flag facepaint which (according to Cats) already appears to be gaining popularity?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

Since you quoted me, I'll answer: nothing at all. By 'rainbow up' I - and I guess Les - simply meant adopting any alternative that is less of a hot-spot.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: GUEST,floss
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM

no need, cats. Im cornish too.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM

Les in Chorlton is once again sugesting that peopple should use rainbow colours as face-paint.
Being the obviously sensible person thatr he is he must be aware that rainbow colours have been adopted by the "gay" or homosexual community as their "colours".
To use rainbow face-paints in this way would cause offence to either the homosexual or to the heterosexual population.
It may, shortly, be an offence to discriminate, but that doues not mean that public display is acceptable!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:55 AM

'crusher, I am impressed, though a little confused, by you conversion to the general cause of sensitivity. Are you going to take the step we have all been urging and suggest an alternative to blacking up?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'
From: BB
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:00 AM

The suggestion has already been made, and is being done by some Padstow people already, which is to use the St Pirran flag, i.e. white cross on a black background. This would be mistaken by no-one in Cornwall as being anything other than their 'own' flag, and it seems to me to be a really good way out of the situation, keeping the old tradition but bringing it right up to date in a non-confrontational way. And I'm certain that no Cornish people would have any difficulty in explaining that to children - rather, they would encourage it!

Barbara