BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!

Subject: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,Pedant Alert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM

Save yourself one keystroke and do it right! Like this:

CDs
banjos
umbrellas
cats
LPs
WMDs
guitars
folks
animals
steaks
chops

An apostrophe is generally only needed to indicate possessives or it is used to contract a verb form. Examples:

I own 850 CDs. I love CDs. You can never have too many CDs. The CD's greatest charm is its lack of background noise. (Aha! A possessive of "CD".) It's the best package, in my opinion. (note the contraction of "it is"...it's)

In a very rare exception to possessives, however, the possessive word "its" does NOT have an apostrophe. Its charm is that it's one of the few possessives that doesn't.

Got it?

Now go and sell your banjos.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:00 PM

Not to mention the 1990s and any number of lucky 7s. Haven't we had this discussion before? And agreed that there are various pundents, pedants and pissants on either side of the ocean that disagree with each other?

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:01 PM

Incidentally, there is an order in which one can check to see if the apostrophe has been used correctly.

It's mean two things in English and only two things: IT IS or IT HAS.

'It's nice out' or 'It's been a nice day'.

I wanted to be pedantic, too. (I hope that's a good thing.)

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:03 PM

The use of the apostrophe is gradually going away in things like 'Mind your Ps and Qs.' But it ain't gone yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:05 PM

And don't words that end in a vowel other than "e" usually require an "es" for a plural form? Shouldn't it be "banjoes"? Or have all of the rules of spelling and grammar been thrown to the winds??


(I quite agree about the possessives. Now if something could only be done to stop the decline of the comparative: "clearer" and not "more clear" etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:06 PM

You couldn't have said it any more clearly than that, Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,B;omd FRunk in Blind River
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:13 PM

Flip. I am wasted. What is this about, eh? There aint' not antelopes in the Ural's. None. Nor possums neether. Trust me on this. The Ural's are in Switzerland and they ain't got anthelopes there. They do got goats though. And cows. Not that it flippin' matters.

- Sjahne

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:48 PM

And to any number of Mudcat posters: This is how you spell

H Y P O C R I S Y


You're welcome.
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:52 PM

Example of misplaced apostrophe: "Hi Bill, how have you--yes, O log floating down the river, I shall attend to that immediately--uh, how have you been?"

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:01 PM

you're
not going to get by with some of your
other mistakes either....there's
no excuse for typing their
, when they're
is meant.

etcetera....(not eXcetera)

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:18 PM

However, all that aside, I don't really give a rat's ass if people misplace the occasional piece of punctuation or misspell the odd word. Do it myself on occasion, and I'd get seriously pissed if someone took me to task about it.

A few years back on another site someone called my grammar into question. I read his post, did the corrections and necessary rewording and reposted what he'd written.

Even excellent posts can contain errors of style.

'In a very rare exception to possessives, however, the possessive word "its" does NOT have an apostrophe. Its charm is that it's one of the few possessives that doesn't.'

It is not an exception, however. Possessive pronouns (which then become adjectival in nature) have never used apostrophes to indicate possession.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:25 PM

Up yer's....

Awww, jus' funnin'...

Heck, I knew this day would come seein' as me an Al Gore invented the "'"... We sho nutt di... Heck, it was right after that night when we invented the innernet and we still ahd a couple cold 'uns in the 'frig and so I looked at Al and he at me and, wow, it was like one o' them moments, like de ja vu and love at first sight, we both yeeled out "apostrope!!!"... Hey, neither of had ever heard of the word but there we were... So whadda' gonna do??? So we run down to the allnight copywright joint/pawn broker and signed it up... We sho nuff id it jus' like I jus' tolt it....

Now, as fir you pedestrian writer's please don't make me have to start billin' you all fir royalties... Hey, think honer sytem and paypal... I'll be sho that Al gets his cut...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:47 PM

Just for the record, Al Gore never made any claim to have invented the Internet. It's just another of those witless, mindless, heartless, senseless canards that the rightie-tighties are so good at. I guess stuff like that is easy once you decide truth no longer matters. Anyway, here's the Snopes page.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Arne
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 PM

Got the title wrong. That would be:

BS: Plural's dont require apostrophes!"

HTH.

Cheers,

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:02 PM

Youi mean that me and Al din't invet the inernet, Amos???

Awwwwww, you just ruined a perfectly good day.... Hey, do you think we can get a refund fir the 7 bucks that Al and I paid the guy at the all night copywrite/pwanbroker???

B

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM

Pedant alert!

It's WMD...

...not, WMDs

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:21 PM

Oh, good one. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:29 PM

From one web site on grammar:

"Plural forms and the apostrophe (Bedford 36/Hodges')
A common error is to form the plural of a noun by adding "'s" to the singular form. Try to get out the habit of doing this. A trick for remembering that the apostrophe signifies the plural is that possessive means "having," and so the posessive form of the word "has" an apostrophe. How do you tell the difference in between plural and possessive? Check the meaning of the sentence. Does the noun simply refer to more than one thing? Or does the sentence mention something that belongs to the noun?

Although usage has changed in recent years, some handbooks call for an apostrophe in the plural forms of numbers, letters, and words used as words:

How many 1's do we have in the line?
We put x's on the incorrect answers.
The no's resounded loudly throughout the chamber."

http://www.meredith.edu/grammar/plural.htm

From another website on grammar:

"An apostrophe is used in plurals in the following very special cases:

in the plurals of single letters:
There are only three s's in `Christmases'.
Mind your p's and q's.
(Even here, the capital letter would not need the apostrophe.)

in the plurals of abbreviations:
We have several pg's [paying guests].
We have received four cheques and two IOU's.
(But IOUs is common and accepted, and the usual plural of CD is CDs).
Most symbols for units such as lb (pounds) and cm (centimetres) do not strictly have plural forms.


in the plurals of numerals:
This house was built in the 1930's.
(But 1930s is preferable).

As an alternative spelling, for clarity, of the plurals of a very few short words:
We went to several society do's last year.
While out with his third wife he met both of his ex's.
I've had yes's for coffee from four people.
But in each case, dos, exes, yesses would be acceptable. The usual plural of no is noes."

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutspelling/pizza

Even the experts do not agree on the issue; thus, as Peace pointed out, both forms ("noes" and "np's", "1960s" and "1960's") are acceptable.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM

yep...even us (we) pedants can get our heads ahead of our fingers when typing in a hurry here, so I don't fret too much about simple spelling, grammar and punctuation mistakes. I have tendency to reverse some letters, like 'y' and 't' and 'b' and 'n' because of keyboard placement, and others because my head just IS ahead of my fingers....

I use a 'real time' spell checker, but it can't tell whether I mean 'form' or 'from'....many's the time I have seen the mistaek *grin* JUST as I hit 'send'...

But, boy, some types of mistakes just cause my jaws to clench! Those extra apostrophes tossed in at random are in that category.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:11 AM

The odd thing is that there are people who are fairly consistent in their use of apostrophes- and get each of them wrong. I have a sister in law who somehow internalized it backward- she'll write about there new house and the two dog's that both love the back yard, and that she and her daughter both have cold's and then tell me about how they are painting their new house and the houses color will be blue.

After 45 years, I have decided she ain't gonna change. I just don't understand how she has never noticed the rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: open mike
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:31 AM

also there is no plural or possessive of anyway (anyways or anyway's)
and there is no such place as somewheres
as sometimes sung in Long Black Veil ("if you were somewheres else,
you won't have to die")

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Genie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:46 AM

One source of confusion when writing things like "the 1920s" v. "the '20s" is that in one case the apostrophe replaces an omitted part. While I can see that it might be acceptable to write "the 1920's," (though the apostrophe seems unnecessary) or "the 1920s" or "the '20s," I often see "the 20's" -- which seems clearly wrong, since that form omits the apostrophe that would actually convey a meaning, but uses one that adds none.

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:00 AM

You'll find somewheres close to howscome.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:01 AM

Thar's LOTS of somewheres, Laurel. Thet's why it's confusing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 03:57 AM

A ver'y wise' and usefu'l thr'ea'd ind'eed.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 04:06 AM

ABOLI'SH THE PO'S'SE'S'SIVE APO'STROPHE!
ITS PA'ST IT'S 'SELL BY DATE.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: jonm
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 04:36 AM

Fowler's Common English Usage gives both IOUs and IOU's as acceptable, although the former is preferred. Applies to all plural of abbreviations in common usage. Similarly, if the abbreviation is recognised in its own right, WMDs (or WMD's) is perfectly acceptable, even where it makes a nonsense of the words when expanded.

Who led the pedants' revolt?





Which Tyler!

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 04:37 AM

The plural of Court Martial is Courts Martial; another common mistake.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 04:42 AM

Exception:

One plural, of course, does take an apostrophe: Greengrocer's

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 05:18 AM

"The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe." Frank Zappa.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 05:22 AM

Greengrocer's

... or Greengrocers' if there are more than one.


I believe it goes bach to the days when people would say "John his horse" where we would say "John's horse" - the apostrophe indicates that letters have been left out.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: s&r
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 07:22 AM

Old English would say 'Johnes horse' - the apostrophe indicates the loss of the 'e'.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 07:26 AM

"I believe it goes bach to the days when people would say "John his horse""

THEY NEVER SAID THAT!!!!

They said "Johnnes blonk" certainly, that's just the Middle English possessive, and the bloody grammarians THOUGHT they were saying "his". Then people trying to write formally followed the grammarians. The whole apo'strophe cata'strophe is a mi'stake.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 07:53 AM

I'm a plural - I demand my own apostrophe!

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:31 AM

It's also,
Brothers in law, not brother in laws
Attorneys general, not attorneys generals.

We have here a group of weather forcasters who consistently use poor grammar. They say,...Portland got a half an inch of rain. It is either a half inch or half an inch. Never both.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:36 AM

I find myself agreeing about so many things with Winston Churchill, who, after being chided for ending a sentence with a preposition, "This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put."

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:53 AM

Here's what really bugs me.

Many people in the news business do not understand the "carrot and stick" analogy. They correctly think that the carrot is a lure or reward, but mistakenly think that the stick is for hitting.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The stick is used to hold the carrot out in front of the donkey. It is not to be used as a weapon.

The next time I hear a reporter say something stoopid like "the ambassador has decided to try less carrot, and more stick", I will find them and expectorate in their general direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:25 AM

Guest Pedant Alert: "his" is a possessive pronoun without apostrophe. For that matter, "her" is another. If you're going to be a pedant, you really must take care to be right as well.

CrazyEddie, "greengrocer's" is NOT a plural.

weelittledrummer, it's because you're a plural that you can't have an apostrophe. (You could think about giving yourself an initial cap though.)

Giok and Kendall, I expect you're remembering that "Lords Justices" is correct, though encountered only in the judiciary of England and Wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,Bainbo
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:36 AM

"Then people trying to write formally followed the grammarians"

Similar confusion over split infinitives. The folk lying down the laws on English grammar tried to make it follow the rules of Latin. Which it can't - English is, I suppose, essentially a Germanic language.

Latin infinitives are only one word - eg ire - and can't be split. English infinitives are two words - eg to go.

So, despite what some will try to tell you, there's nothing wrong with "To boldly go".

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:37 AM

now can someone tell me the plurals of

gymnasia
referenda
opera
data
bacteria
octopussies (or octopodes - your choice)
vortices
apices
dice
indices (yea yea find it in the index)

and before I can be arsed to look it up - does (do?) cafeteria follow the same syntax (or should that be syntaces?)

Language is what we use to convey meaning it is either a fluid or a dead like latin (or should that be Latin?). It annoys the hell out of me but I live in the real world and have to get a few things first - like a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:45 AM

Well, there could be TWO sticks, don't you think?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:17 AM

Which letters have been ommitted from greengrocer's?

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:32 AM

My English teacher, Mr Baines (of blessed memory), taught me a simple rule:

In the sentence, 'the dog's collar' the position of the apostrophe is determined by switching the sentence round such that the possessor of the collar (ie. the dog) comes last, ie. 'the collar of the dog'. The apostrophe then comes after the 'g' in 'dog'.

There are other rules, of course, like the distinction between 'it's' and 'its' as so ably described above.

I quite like rules for such things - as long as they are regarded as aids to communication and comprehension and not just as rules for their own sake. Nevertheless, one of my heroes, the English poet John Clare, rarely used punctuation and saw it as tyrannous (some of his poems, can be quite difficult to read and to make sense of, though).

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:52 AM

Perhaps one contributing factor to the confusion is our habit of shortening a phrase on an implied use. For instance, greengrocer's. I agree, of course, that it's not plural. However, it does require the apostrophe because of the unuttered, 'shop'.

Same as when I say that I stopped by (at) my parents'. I actually mean, my parents' home

Maybe that kind of thing causes confusion? I suspect that it's usually a case of never having paid actual attention. It doesn't bother me as it used to. Over the years I've gotten mellower about misusage.

For instance, I was taught that Bainbo's use of 'lying' is incorrect. One 'lays' something, therefore one would say 'laying down the rules'. On the other hand, one is 'lying down'.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:55 AM

Mr. Red, most of those are already plurals.

gymnasia: proper (Latin) plural of gymnasia
referenda: proper (Latin) plural of referandum
opera: plura is operas
data: proper (Latin) plural of datum, but now often considered to be a word with the same form in both numbers
bacteria: proper (Latin) plural of bacterium
octopussies: improper plural of octopus; proper plural is either octopuses or octopi
vortices: plural of vortex
apices: plural of apex
dice: plural of die
indices: plural of index

And the plural of cafeteria is cafeterias.

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:58 AM

Sorry...first should be "gymnasia: proper (Latin) plural of gymnasium"

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:05 AM

"Greengrocer's" is a possessive singular noun referring to the place of business belonging to the greengrocer. Same construct as "the cobbler's", or, "stopped by at Bill's".

A

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:07 AM

Mr Red: all your wordses are already pluralses except for octopustuleseses's, of which the plural is squid.

I don't like foreign plurals creeping into the language; it's already complicated enough, and words should be naturalised as soon as possible. So the plural of stadium is stadiums, not stadia, which are ancient Greek kilometres. The Greeks trained in gymnasia, but we (you I should say) go to gymnasiums, unless you do it in the nude. And as for data- in 30 years in electronics, I've never heard the word 'datum' except to mean a fixed reference point for measurements. Even one bit of data is data.

Anyone:
Write me a sentence in which the omission of the possessive apostrophe causes ambiguity. I bet it's a badly framed sentence that would be difficult to construe anyway.

The boys trousers pockets holes were caused by the girls frolicking.

Any problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:23 AM

CrazyEddie, I do believe they all missed the "greengrocer's apostrophe" gag, although it is probably meaningless to the Transatlantic contingent from the colonies.....

Subject: RE: BS: Plurals don't require apostrophes!
From: GUEST,bbc at work
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM

My guess is that most of the people who make these kinds of errors could not care less & will not even open this thread. I, on the other hand, enjoyed it.

Best to all,

bbc