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BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why?
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Subject: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM Who's going to investigate The man who investigates The man who investigates me I was listening to the news on NPR's "Morning Edition" this morning as I usually do and heard a rather disturbing report that conjured up a specter from the past: the Canwell Committee. The Canwell Committee in Washington State came into being during the late Forties. It's purpose was to track down and blacklist a number of professors at the University of Washington whose political views were deemed "unacceptable." The same thing began to spread all over the country. This was precursor to the whole thing going national, and with that came the McCarthy era. On a more international basis, this sort of thing was also a precursor to the Third Reich in the Thirties, the rigid control of the Soviet Union for decades, or currently, aspects, that the U. S. objects to in the domestic policies of countries such as China and North Korea. If you have Windows Media Player or RealPlayer, you can hear the report here: NPR report, Thursday, Jan. 19, 2006. I don't know how long they archive these stories, so you might want to catch it quickly. This sent me on a google search, and there are a few items about this, but so far, the pickings are slim. The upshot of the story is that at UCLA, the "Bruin Alumni Association," organized about a year ago, is offering $100 to students who are willing to keep track of UCLA professors and instructors over a ten-week period whom the student deems "liberal" or "left-wing." It was started by one Andrew Jones. So far, I've heard nothing on other stations or the news media in general about this. Apparently one must listen to news services such as NPR (deemed by right-wingers as part of the "liberal media" primarily because they report stories that American citizens, if they are to be an informed electorate, need to know, but that you will not hear anywhere else, especially not on Fox News Service) or go to overseas news media to find out what's going on in this country. Here's a story on this in The Guardian. I wonder how many more such "monitoring groups" there are. There is a very bad stench in this country. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Rapparee Date: 19 Jan 06 - 06:40 PM Don, it's reminiscient of the left-wing students in the '60s doing the same thing to the "conservative" profs of the period. I wonder how may parents or grandparents of the students who monitor "liberal" teachers monitored "conservative" profs in the '60s? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 06 - 06:53 PM Guardian Story Excerpt: Three UCLA Board Members Resign Thursday January 19, 2006 9:32 AM LOS ANGELES (AP) - A former congressman is among three people who have quit the advisory board of a conservative alumni group at the University of California, Los Angeles, after it offered students money to police professors accused of pushing liberal views. Former Rep. James Rogan, a Republican who served two terms, sent an e-mail Wednesday to Andrew Jones, head of the Bruin Alumni Association, saying he didn't want his name connected to the group. ``I am uncomfortable to say the least with this tactic,'' Rogan wrote in his e-mail. ``It places students in jeopardy of violating myriad regulations and laws.'' Rogan's resignation follows those of Harvard historian Stephan Thernstrom and UCLA professor emeritus Jascha Kessler, who both quit the board once they learned of the group's activities. The group has been offering students up to $100 to supply tapes and notes from classes to expose professors suspected of pushing liberal political views on their students. Jones, 24, a 2003 graduate and former head of the campus Republican group, said he was concerned about the level of professionalism among teachers at the university. ``We're just trying to get people back on a professional level of things,'' Jones told The Los Angeles Times. Targeted professors have likened the effort to a witch-hunt. ``Any sober, concerned citizen would look at this and see right through it as a reactionary form of McCarthyism,'' said education professor Peter McLaren, whom the association named as No. 1 on its ``The Dirty Thirty: Ranking the Worst of the Worst.'' In other news the Bush administration tried to force Google to surrender its records of people's browsing histories, saying it was to support the Child Protection act, despite the fact that the Supreme Court had already ruled their interpretation of it unconstitutional. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:34 PM "If your mommy is a commie then you've got to turn her in." |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Bobert Date: 19 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM Ahhh, better watch out about yer "Google" activities as a news stroy on NBC tonight says that Bush wants to know what YOU are Googling up tonight and has asked Google to turn over recent searches.... No, I didn't make this up... BNobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Deckman Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:37 PM Don, I heard the same report. This could mean one of two things: we both have good hearing, or we both have something to fear! Because anyone who wants to monitor my political persusions would have easy pickings should they join Mudcat, I have decided to make a serious effort to secret myself. I am thinking of changing my Mudcat name to "HE WHO COULD GIVE A RAT'S ASS!" There, don'cha think that will throw them off the trail? Besides, having gained a full half inch thick FBI file by the time I entered the Army at age 18, I figure that who anyone wants to add to my list of trangressions better have at least a part ownership in a stationary store! CHEERS Bob(deckman)Nelson ((who could REALLY give a rat's ass)) |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 19 Jan 06 - 09:38 PM F#ck Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jan 06 - 01:28 PM This morning I heard (on NPR, what else?) about the Bush League wanting to look at google's records, as Bobert said above (glad to hear NBC covered it). Google, it seems, recommended a good short pier the Bush Babies could take a long walk on. Yahoo and MSN, though (at least from the way it appears at this point), are rolling over, licking shoes, and fetching sticks. I was just wondering what sort of records google, yahoo, etc., keep. The Seattle Public Library, and as I understand it, most libraries around the country, are not complying with government intrusion into records because they don't keep records, unless they are very current. If you've placed a hold on a particular book, or if you have the book checked out, or if you owe a fine on a book, the library, of course, keeps a record of it, but once the book has been returned and all fines (if any) have been paid, the record is simply erased. No point, as far as the library is concerned, for keeping it. I don't see any point in google keeping a record of the fact that yesterday I searched for more information on the Bruin Alumni Association story and read a couple of things including the Guardian story (by the way, thanks for fixing the link, Amos). Or that I spent a lot of time searching for precise measurements of classic guitar fingerboard dimensions and string spacing. I'm sure that is of great interest to those in charge of the nation's security. (This man is obviously dangerous! He's a musician!) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Deckman Date: 20 Jan 06 - 01:53 PM Don ... There is nuthing for you to fret about! Besides, you sound a little strung out! (sorry for the diggression ... sorta). To be serious for a moment, I also have been hearing and reading of the same governmental thrusts. It so reminds me of just what we went through in the McCarthy period. It's like we don't ever LEARN anything! Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Rapparee Date: 20 Jan 06 - 01:59 PM That's right, Bob. Like the old cowboy said, "There's them folks that read and study and learn, they're maybe 0.5%. An' then there's them that study and learn, an' they're maybe 1%. And the rest of us just keep pissin' in our boots." |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: CarolC Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:07 PM How could Google possibly keep so much information, anyway? I know I use Google many dozens of times in an average week. Multiply that by millions of people, and the figure seems pretty daunting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:16 PM You should see their server farms, Carol. With modern tapes or RAID arrays you can organize storage systems that run to the googolbytes! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: gnu Date: 20 Jan 06 - 02:43 PM So... a few bits could come back to byte ya in the ass? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jan 06 - 04:35 PM From a report I heard this afternoon, AOL has also capitulated. The Justice (?) Department claims they're looking for child pornographers. Yeah, right! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: autolycus Date: 20 Jan 06 - 05:06 PM Is Huxley (Brave New World), Orwell(1984) or someone else most on the button about where we're headed. Religion is about faith. Psychotherapy is often to with faith. Politics, Journalism, Broadcasting, Materialism seem , in the final analysis, to be founded on fear. Much of life seems to breed fear. The fear quotient appears to be rising currently. Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhh deeeeeaaaar Auto. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 20 Jan 06 - 07:38 PM Microsoft, AOL, and Yahoo all provided information, but say that none of what they provided was personal information about users -- just about the kinds of queries they get across their search engines. Google said, "No". A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Paul Burke Date: 21 Jan 06 - 05:34 AM So? Do you mean AOL etc. are weak-kneed or that Google are being stupid? Or that Google alone are prepared to stick their neck out to try to stop the spooks taking one more bite out of US freedom? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM Google was more principled in their overt response than the other three. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Jan 06 - 11:38 AM I also heard these stories. Do you remember the case of the Florida professor accused of all sorts of heinous crimes after 9/11? He was acquitted. You'd think the Justice Department would get the message. It's pretty scary. I work in a university library on a campus that has a few activist professors. We're the better for having them. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 21 Jan 06 - 12:36 PM Many of you seem paranoid. There are many enemies of this country within it's borders. If you are not one of them I certainly would not be worried. If you are, perhaps you should be. I hope we find more than a few, because they are out there. Perhaps those of you so worried know a few. No one has ever said the cost of freedom is without a price. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 21 Jan 06 - 01:26 PM Martin, I know you would not have agreed with the methods Joe McCarthy used. Hey, if a person is 'consorting' with the enemy, aiding and abetting, then yes they deserve what the law will allow. However, this type of stuff is crap and you know it. It goes hand in hand with law enforcement saying it wants open warrants so it can do as it chooses without having to provide justification. I work ofetn with police and have got to know many RCMP officers over the years. Despite that, there is no friggin' way on God's Earth that I would ever suggest they not have to abide by the law--that is, if they have reasonable suspicion and can justify that to a judge, then and only then do they get the warrant. Maybe you read the thread about Costco which told the British Columbia governemnet to take a turn to itself when it asked for Costco to open it's records for them to pursue possible tax evaders. Yeah. It is the same logic used at the Salem Witch Trials. Until WE have satisfied ourselves that YOU have nothing to hide, then we will assume that you do. In reality, innocence can never be proven; only guilt can be established. This is simply a new try at McCarthyism, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:30 PM Exactly so, Peace. But the danger is that it could go even further than that. Those who are the most in favor of releasing the Constitutional constraints on law enforcement, or, God help us, "national security" agencies, strangely enough, are the first to be surprised when they suddenly find themselves staring out from behind the barbed wire. The only thing that brought McCarthy's excesses to a halt was that there were sufficient intelligent, thinking people around who saw what was going on and stopped him. Back then, it was fear of communists. McCarthy emphasized that and traded on it to gain power, and it later turned out that the Communist Party in America was essentially toothless. Now, it's fear of terrorists. Granted, they can be a danger, but nowhere near a big enough danger to justify putting the country on a war alert, launching full-scale invasions of other countries, or either officially or unofficially declaring martial law. Bush and his current cabal of power junkies are trying to use this to shred the Constitution exactly as McCarthy tried to do. Unless stopped, the inevitable result will be a fascist dictatorship. Fascism does not require black uniforms, armbands, and jackboots. These are mere superficialities that the small-minded fasten on. What fascism (as defined by Benito Mussolini) does consist of is an essentially homogenous mixture of government and corporations, and the elimination of restraints on government power. The Bush administration is made up primarily of corporate executives (Cheney's relationship with Halliburton for example--only one of many) and their army of hacks and yes-men. All that remains now is for them to remove the Constitutional constraints, and then Bush (or whoever the neo-cons chose) can assume the position of the American Führer. Or even worse: take that recipe and mix it with a hefty dose of rigid religious fundamentalism and you have a new Dark Ages; a neo-feudal system, kept in line by a modern version of the Inquisition. For those who think that this is "paranoia," re-read the first sentence in the second paragraph of this post. It's happened before and it can happen again. Even here. Especially here, because of the number of people who mindlessly intone "This is America! It can't happen here!" It's been said before: those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Jan 06 - 03:46 PM How naive, MG, to suggest that if "you are not one of them I certainly would not be worried." The first thing that seems to routinely happen to innocent people stopped by the police or law enforcement officials--they're told "if you're innocent you won't need a lawyer." WRONG. The innocent absolutely need representation from the very beginning, and they need protection from the overzealous Putsch administration. There are some very scary thing happening out there in the name of national security. Just now on On the Media I was listening to a story about a man who spoke at a dinner party a few days after Sept. 11 about what Muslims in America should do, and based on what he said alone, he was given a life sentence. Free speech? I think not. Go to the 1/20/2006 program and listen to or read the story called "Tap Dance." SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Jan 06 - 11:50 AM SRS, you link doesn't work (at least for me, right now). I cannot think of any crime he could commit by speaking at a dinner which would give even the potentiality of a life sentence, much less actually getting that full sentence. Since you say you've read the story, please give us particulars. Or maybe a link that works. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM Try this one. The story called Tapdance is on the top of the page. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:28 PM Thanks, Amos. I accidentally inserted the target= blank tag without using a " in there somewhere. It was a very good story. After this week you'll have to go to the archive for the 1/20/06 program. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM I certainly was no fan of Joe McCarthy. But that was a different era. Like I said, you have nothing to worry about if you are not an enemy of America. American will always have representation. SRS, your analogy is extreme. You are probably one who is always looking in her rear view mirror or hearing footsteps behind you. Try living a little. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 06 - 12:47 PM "No one has ever said the cost of freedom is without a price." If the cost of freedom means loss of privacy, I don't think you can call it freedom. Freedom doesn't exist without privacy. Its odd that Martin thinks that we shouldn't be worried when it is those doing the snooping who are actually worried. Some of us have the courage to stand up to tyranny. Martin is a good example of a citizen that allowed Nazi Germany to deprive its people of privacy and the right to be free. He is a disgrace to his own people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 01:57 PM Hardly, Guest. Comparing America today to Nazi Germany is just plain stupid and ignorant. It shows just how little you know about it. You want privacy? Shut the door when you are taking a dump. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:06 PM Trying to be serious for a change and leaving aside the usual temptation to refer to Martin Gibson as the resident shmutz-meister and give him grief about his shmekel, I really wonder how a person of his particular religious affiliation, especially in the light of the ruthless and brutal treatment adherents to this faith have suffered at the hands of powerful regimes throughout history, especially in the last century, can be so complacent about the trends in this country right now, considering the possibility—indeed, the likelihood, if certain so-called "Christian" fundamentalists gain the power they seek—of it starting all over again. ". . . you have nothing to worry about if you are not an enemy of America." Back in the 1930s, I don't think most of the German citizens, who also happened to be Jewish, were enemies of Germany. Nevertheless. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:09 PM Don, you should know. You spent your first 20 years in Nazi Germany up until 1930. We Jews have a saying. It's called, "Never again." |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM What are you talking about, Marty? I wasn't even born yet and I've never been to Germany. Ever hear of a man named Mel Mermelstein? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM That example is not extreme at all. It is all too commonplace. Innocent people are arrested all of the time, for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Others are set up by bad cops who get a kickback for every arrest, or are entrapped by folks overzealously enforcing RICO statutes (because they get to keep the cars and property and loot they seize). The Bush abuse of privacy rights just gives these bad apples encouragement to keep up their predatory practices. Classic example, the fake drug scandal in Dallas a few years ago, when many non-English-speaking men were fingered by corrupt informants working with Dallas police.
Another example, Tulia, Texas, where a bigoted white sheriff managed to charge a large percentage of the town's black inhabitants with drug crimes. From an article about resulting legislation is this explanation:
It is difficult enough to combat this kind of "wink wink" sanctioned crime in various communities, but when this "guilt by suggestion" behavior is blatantly practiced at the very top of the government, you can guess that this shit is going to run downhill and pollute lots of aspects of American civil liberties. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM 'We Jews have a saying. It's called, "Never again."' That said, the remark above about Christian Fundamentalism (in the White House) should be making everyone in America who isn't one start to take a second look at the picture. The Neocons will squash Jews as quickly as Blacks as quickly as other people it perceives 'not to be on board with the program'. That is not prompted by my dislike of Bush; it is prompted by my dislike of multi-nationals, Neocons and the 'business' agenda in the world right now. I see a day when there will be 5.8 billion slaves and 200,000,000 people ruling. Those people will not all be Americans. Anyone want to make a small wager of a quarter ($.25) that there is an attempted takeover of the US within the coming year? Response to an attack by terrorists (real or staged): troops in your streets controlling American people; prison camps; suspension of habeas corpus; mass trials and mass convictions. Anyone? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:30 PM No the Neocons will not squash Jews, Peace. We are to important to the economy. Don, yes you were in Nazi Germany in 1930 because you know so much about it. And yes, I have heard of Mel Mermelstein. He owned a famous deli on the West side of Chicago in the 1940s and was a comedian in the Catskills during the summer season. After that, he bought a nursing home where you now live. I don't know why I waste my time responding to you except it is just so much fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: GUEST,Coyote Breath Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM I think the Dies Committee might have been in operation before the Canwell bunch, Don. They were making "news" in the 1930's. The statement by the wimpy three (AOL MSN yahoo) that no personal data is being collected is BS. Microsoft "allows" Avenue A, Double Click and Multiplex to "reside" in Internet Explorer. These three "programs" collect data about your use of the internet. I have a good spyware detection program (SpyBot, free download) which catches spyware. Every time I use Mircosoft's Internet explorer it shows me these three collectors. SpyBot also gives me a message about these programs and SpyBot is not convinced that they are benign. I rarely use MSIN any more and use FireFox instead. My internet ramblings have been spyware free now for almost a year. My email, is still crammed with crap. My 'phone is also a conduit for unwanted contact. I'm on a national "no-call" list but it does no good. Predictive dialing has been supplemented with recorded messages so whether you are on a list or not the jerks get through. Some offer you the chance to remove your name from their calling list. In truth it doesn't stop them. I have taken to getting connected to one of their "live" operators and telling them that since the cable (or dish network installer) is "in my neighborhood" I am going out to find the installer and his truck and I am going to beat the crap out of the installer and set his truck on fire. That doesn't do any good either. I wont say that this attempt to spy on it's citizens is any worse than it ever was. What is different is the arrogance displayed by the president. Nixons' attempt to curtail our civil liberties has been revived. 9/11 is an excuse. GWB trots it out to beef up support for his program every chance he gets. OBL's real terrorist act was to give the Republicans an "excuse" to restrict our freedom. Coyote Breath |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:47 PM Coyote Breath, have you tried a good mouthwash to help your love life? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:50 PM 'Jewish' income in the USA is not much different than the national average, Martin. I understand your pride in being Jewish. But please accept that even in America people get thrown to the 'corporate' dogs. All I'm saying is this: keep yer eyes open. Lots of what Washington (and I mean the President you defend, too) says is mere words. There are other agendas at work--and the organizations behind those agendas will have no more respect for Jews than they will have for ANYone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 02:53 PM Obviously, Marty, you don't know who Mel Mermelstein is. Amazing! Seems I know more about Jewish history than you do. And one doesn't need to have been there to know what was going on. Good education, and I read a lot. The reason "Christian" fundamentalists are so in favor of backing Israel against all threats is that part of their mythology says that Jesus will not come again until the Nation of Israel is established and it triumphs once and for all over all of the threats against it. Once this is accomplished, they believe, Jesus will return and the Anti-Christ and all the Forces of Evil will be defeated in the Battle of Armageddon. Then, in the process of "separating the sheep from the goats," Jews will be given an opportunity to convert to Christianity and accept Jesus as the True Messiah. Those Jews who do not convert will be sent to Hell. Think about it. Jews who collaborate with "Christian" fundamentalists because of their policy toward Israel are making a pack with the Devil. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 03:09 PM Don, Jews do not worry what people think about us going to hell. It is a complete non-issue and a non-threat to us. This is taught in just about every synagogue by every rabbi. Jews who respect Christians for their love of Israel and visa versa and what it means to them also have brought the faiths somewhat closer together in that respect. Mel whatever his name is had, like you, zero impact. And what you claim to know about the Jewish experience just makes you a bigger schmuck than you already are, Don. And don't give me that "I've known many Jews," crap And Peace, much resentment towards Jews is because of our money and how we handle it, which comes from our emphasis on good education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 03:25 PM Look up Mel Mermelstein on the internet, Marty. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jan 06 - 03:36 PM Martin, that is not a "Jewish saying"! http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0075/dachau-39 ...and it is a big lie. Genocide happened and is still happening. One silly little plaque is not going to change anything. It only changes when enough people stand up to tyranny. You, on the other hand, support tyranny, as long as its not Jews in the line of fire. What a hypocrite! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:08 PM Here's a thought to ponder, Marty: I'm not talking theology here. Whether or not Jews, or anyone else for that matter, has to worry about going to Hell in the afterlife (if any) is not the point. I'm talking about politics and power. Suppose some fanatical "Christian" fundamentalist thinks you're going to Hell and he decides it's his "Christian" duty to help you get there? And suppose the political climate is such that it would be perfectly legal for him to do so? It can't happen here? Well, you just keep thinking that if it makes you feel more comfortable. In the meantime, I'm doing everything I can to see that that day never comes—again. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 04:56 PM It's been quoted on these threads many times before, but it seems that it needs to be quoted once again: First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:14 PM Yawn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM It first started off with the 'mentally defective'. Jews, while an important part of the 'Mien Kampf' manifesto, were not among the bulk of the first - ask the gypsies and many other groups 'cleared out' before the full focus was turned on the Jews, mainly because most of the rest were already taken. My only objection to the endless collective Jewish public wailing about how they were victimised in Germany, is that too often in all the vocal fuss, the mere existence of the many other simultaneous attacks on other groups gets forgotten. Also, I note in passing that many of the public actions of the State of Israel seem to be indistinguishable from pages taken from the book of historical actions taken by the notorious Jewish 'Victimisers'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:28 PM So let's give Palestine to the Gypsies, OK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:28 PM Keriste, here we go AGAIN! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM And if the oil-rich Arab nations had kicked in economically instead of using Palestinians as pawns in THEIR game, the world would be different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:32 PM "So let's give Palestine to the Gypsies, OK?" Nah - just give it back to the people the Jews stole it from. They still try to live there whilst being bombed by Jews, and still have documents certifying original land ownership, such as mortgage papers, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:36 PM My father saved a dog's life one time. The damned dog bit him! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:37 PM And much of Palestine was paid for by Jews, Robin. If you dislike Jews, say so. But don't rewrite history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 06:42 PM Of course he dislikes Jews. Probably works for one. Or did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Jan 06 - 07:13 PM "And much of Palestine was paid for by Jews, Robin. " Really? please give your sources for such a claim, I would like to improve my education. And notice, Peace that Marty has now managed to stir up a potential fight between us.. :-) His tactics are working, now having derailed the thread according to the agenda of his Bush Regieme employers. ~~~~~~~ "Of course he dislikes Jews. Probably works for one. Or did. " So now you are fantasizing that 'The Jews' own Telstra? :-) ~~~~~~~ "If you dislike Jews, say so." I don't (even though I was brought up a 'Christian' with much 'blaming of the Jews for killing Christ'), but note that Marty has stirred up enough ad hominen against someone for you to believe any crap he says. ~~~~~ "But don't rewrite history. " So which bits am I rewriting, please, and do give some quotes to substantiate that I am wrong. I dislike ignorance, and have never let my 'Education' interfere with my 'Learning'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 07:23 PM Here, Robin, for you to read. And when you're done, please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim (and I am sure some do, BTW). |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Jan 06 - 08:18 PM Gee whiz, every time I try to post this, it doesn't take... now if I did have a psychotic dislike of certain ethnic groups I might really believe there was something going on... :-) "please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim " I have never been there - I have only seen this in several documentaries (screened here in Oz on SBS - sourced from overseas countries, such as the USA, Canada, France, Germany, et al) in which the people hold tattered old pieces of paper with official stamps on in a language which I cannot understand but the reporter claims are authentic looking appropriate documents. I don't keep a diary of what I watch and when sorry... "taken his land for public use" .. and then sold it to 'settlers'? There has been discussion here on Mudcat about the US Govt seizing 'private land for public use', and how many are not happy with it, even though it is 'the law of the land, upheld in the courts'... I also have no doubt that some people have gone thru the valid 'legal processes' for acquiring the land from someone, but also in passing I must note that in 30's Germany, valid (not my definition!) 'legal processes' existed to strip on a whim Jewish and other citizens of their property without reasonable and just compensation: that didn't make that morally right either! Thanks for the interesting link - but since I have no real idea who 'owns' CAMERA, although the self explanation on the site gives some hints as to what their agenda is, I will place no more objective believability in their content than any other source of 'alleged absolute truth' without further investigation of the source. Ah 'Balanced Coverage' - my hackles always rise when I hear that - you hear that from everybody, as if only their personal opinion is the real 'balanced viewpoint' (and of course it's a great 'put down' tactic to discredit all other viewpoints by implication!), including George and Johnny and their mates, and even Goebbels espoused that... Fisk's self opinionated wankerism is known to Australians, it's no secret really anyway - we don't have to rely on just him for a source here anyhow. Here in Oz, we have a program called Media Watch that investigates such things as 'journalistic distortions' and even awards prizes for the most outrageous cases. Unfortunately (and it is often castigated for this!), it also often points out that there are many groups with their own private agendas, whose only interest is to present a viewpoint favourable to just them. In intellectual discussions that stray into emotional territory, those who are not committed to either side as a matter of 'faith', always get pelted with stones from all others who are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 08:25 PM "please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim " I knew your answer would be much like that, Robin. I too go by what I read. The only reason I tossed the question back to you was so you could experience the same thing I did. Basically, we all make statements based on what we know. Palestinians write from their perspectives; Israelis from theirs. You from yours and me from mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Don Firth Date: 22 Jan 06 - 09:15 PM This thread started out being about domestic spying and look where it's wound up. Martin Gibson must be laughing his head off about now. He managed to divert another thread to the topic of his choice. Way to go, folks! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 06 - 10:06 PM 'That said, the remark above about Christian Fundamentalism (in the White House) should be making everyone in America who isn't one start to take a second look at the picture. The Neocons will squash Jews as quickly as Blacks as quickly as other people it perceives 'not to be on board with the program'. That is not prompted by my dislike of Bush; it is prompted by my dislike of multi-nationals, Neocons and the 'business' agenda in the world right now. I see a day when there will be 5.8 billion slaves and 200,000,000 people ruling. Those people will not all be Americans. Anyone want to make a small wager of a quarter ($.25) that there is an attempted takeover of the US within the coming year? Response to an attack by terrorists (real or staged): troops in your streets controlling American people; prison camps; suspension of habeas corpus; mass trials and mass convictions. Anyone?' I said this earlier. That is where I think this stuff is going. Period. It is not just about domestic spying, but also about eroding freedom--it is all beginning to read like Orwell. Hell, we have green-plastic-enclosed cameras recording us on sidewalks here. Computers store that. Heard that soon cars will have to be outfitted with GPS locators. Soon, government will know what we are doing 24/7/365. IMO, it doesn't get much more 'real' than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 22 Jan 06 - 10:15 PM OK, times up. It's now time to divert this thread to who will win the super bowl. After that, we can talk about pizza. Don, do you like your pizza with onions? There's something that doesn't work for that with me. What do you think Foolestroupe? Is that all you can get in that godforsaken place where you live is just a frozen pizza with cheese on it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Jan 06 - 01:50 AM Gee whiz, every time I try to post this, it doesn't take... now if I did have a psychotic dislike of certain ethnic groups I might really believe there was some conspiracy going on... :-) I could even be mistaken for a Jew in some circumstances... ;-) Of course calling someone a 'Jew Hater' has been Marty the Arsehole's standard tactic for ages - he uses it indiscriminately - from my experience with him, I believe that he would even use it against other Jews. In intellectual discussions that stray into emotional territory, those who are not committed to either side as a matter of 'faith', always get pelted with stones from all others who are. But don't forget that Marty is just a 'Proxy Slimer' - throwing other people's nasty ideas around to self aggrandise himself by putting others down. And of course, now I am in the very position of what someone on the receiving end of The US Patriot Act, or Joe McCarthy has had to do - prove my innocence beyond all doubt, even though there is nothing but a malicious attack just to discredit me. And of course Marty has got you all distracted from the original subject of the thread by waving a highly emotionally charged red herring like a red rag to a bull. "please substantiate your statement that Palestinians have deeds/titles to the lands they claim " I have never been there - I have only seen this in documentaries (screened here in Oz on SBS - sourced from overseas countries, such as the USA, Canada, France, Germany, et al) in which the people hold tattered old pieces of paper with official stamps on in a language which I cannot understand but the reporter claims are authentic looking appropriate documents. I don't keep a diary of what I watch and when sorry... Thanks for the interesting link - but since I have no real idea who 'owns' CAMERA, although the self explanation on the site gives some hints as to what their agenda is, I will place no more objective believability in their content than any other source of 'alleged absolute truth' without further investigation of the source. "taken his land for public use" .. and then sold it to 'settlers'? There has been discussion here on Mudcat about the US Govt seizing 'private land for public use', and how many are not happy with it, even though it is 'the law of the land, upheld in the courts'... And of course, just what is 'Jewish Land'? What the UN passed 'a just and proper law' to designate as 'Israel', even though many of the then occupants were to be removed of their homes? Or what some Jewish prophet said the voice inside his head told him 'would be Jewish land for ever', even though for the last 2 thousand years and a bit other nations have been tromping their armies all over it calling it 'theirs'? In that case, does it include land on the map outside the 'lawfully designated' borders of 'Israel' - which is what I was referring to as 'Palestine'? I also have no doubt that some people have gone thru the valid 'legal processes' for acquiring the land from someone, but also in passing I must note that in 30's Germany, valid (not my definition!) 'legal processes' existed to strip on a whim Jewish and other German citizens of their property without reasonable and just compensation: that didn't make that morally right either! Ah 'Balanced Coverage' - my hackles always rise when I hear that - you hear that from everybody, as if their very special personal opinion is the only real 'balanced viewpoint' (and of course it's a great 'put down' tactic to discredit all other viewpoints by implication!), including George and Johnny and their mates, and even Goebbels espoused that... Fisk's self opinionated wankerism is known to Australians, it's no secret really anyway - we don't have to rely on just him for a source here anyhow. Here in Oz, we have a program called Media Watch that investigates such things as 'journalistic distortions' and even awards prizes for the most outrageous cases. there is no shortage of people all over the world ready to point out journalistic shortcomings. Unfortunately (and it is often castigated for this!), the program also often points out that there are many groups with their own private agendas, whose only interest is to present a viewpoint favourable to just them, even if it involves misquoting 'authorities'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Jan 06 - 01:56 AM Oh well, I have been having ISP based connection difficulties, The first attempt (22 Jan 06 - 08:18 PM) didn't show up here so I reworked it a bit and sent it a second time (23 Jan 06 - 01:50 AM ). It's all right by me of a clone deletes the first attempt above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Jan 06 - 11:11 AM Changing the subject accomplishes two things. It makes Martin Gibson the center of attention and it scatters the intellectual capital of the list participants. He feels no compulsion to follow reasonable rules of discourse when debating the issue at hand. We've hashed this failing of his a lot of times before, and anyone who challenges his lack of actual knowledge or uncivil approach to the current debate is met with a barrage of name-calling. Meanwhile, Bush is trashing what little "good name" the U.S. had in the world and relies on zealous pinheads like MG to keep people off balance. Bush tramples the rights of citizens because his actions allow corporations and those who already have undue influence to benefit further. "Civil rights" are discretionary in Bush's cabal. Either MG can't think for himself or he's tied in with a group or organization who receive unfair benefits based on Bush policy. And come to think of it, Israel is one of those organizations that receives unfair benefit from the Bush administration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 23 Jan 06 - 12:00 PM Wheeee OOOO, Stilly!! Laser eye and razor tongue!! LOL! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: GUEST,Farfel Date: 23 Jan 06 - 02:34 PM Blogger Obtains Gen. Wesley Clark's Phone Records For $89.95 Email this item Email Print this item Print Posted on Jan. 12, 2006 AMERICAblog: I reported the other day that your cell phone records are on sale online for anyone to buy, without your permission. Well, this morning AMERICAblog bought former presidential candidate, and former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO (SACEUR), General Wesley Clark’s cell phone records for one hundred calls made over three days in November 2005, no questions asked. (Clark’s cell phone provider is Omnipoint Communications, which seems to be related to T-Mobile.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Jan 06 - 03:07 PM No, I'm not. I'm matter-of-fact. You're old news around here. There was an excellent discussion on the topic that this thread is actually about on Fresh Air today. Here is a link to the program, and the following is the introductory text: Authors Bush, the CIA and America: 'State of War'
Risen's new book is State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration. While it describes the National Security Agency's practices of monitoring communication in the United States, the book also delves into the deeper relationship between the president and the CIA -- particularly in terms of his aspirations in Iraq. In his account, Risen describes President Bush as being bent on war in Iraq -- not least because he sought to do the job better than the United States -- and his father -- had done in 1991. From the controversial "Downing Street Memo" that described military action in Iraq as a foregone conclusion months before the war to power struggles among the CIA the Defense Department and other entities, State of War provides a detailed context for looking at American policies in Iraq. I'll listen to this one again online because the local pledge drive talked over the top of part of the interview. The part I heard this morning was excellent, a lucid discussion of how Bush has overstepped his legal authority. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jan 06 - 04:16 PM Martin Gibson's opinions are worth nothing. He is little more than a barking dog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:27 AM Ah, perfida ingrata - the compulsive cacphile again - the cauda mundi of Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:16 AM Doesn't anyone want to talk about the little green cameras that are showing up all over friggin' everywhere? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 06 - 09:31 AM Haven't seen any little green eyes. Marty's are brown, I know that much. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:17 PM There are cameras everywhere, Peace. Which ones do you have in mind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM These. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM We see those in stores and banks and post offices perched over the top of the cashiers to a) keep track of them and b) keep track of their customers. There are communities that put them out on the public thoroughfares to keep track of the general populace passing through the area. Search on "cam" and you'll find lots of hits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 24 Jan 06 - 06:05 PM It's too much like "1984" for this kid. I figure next we'll have voice comin' outta the clouds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Once Famous Date: 24 Jan 06 - 08:54 PM NOAH! |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: Peace Date: 25 Jan 06 - 12:49 AM WHAT? Look, who is this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Jan 06 - 04:21 AM Must be the Devil tempting us again... |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: GUEST,The Vogon Captain Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:07 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: How many eyes at the keyhole? And why? From: autolycus Date: 25 Jan 06 - 06:30 PM Peace, I'll say something about the cameras. Do you remember the good old days of the cold war, when the Soviets were the manifestation of all that the West was against. One of those manifestations, picked up by Orwell as the Big Brother Is Watching You slogan, was that in the S.U., there was any amount of spying on ordinary citizens. And in those days, that was the kind of thing that would not exist in the West because we were the countries of free peoples. The idea of being spied on was anathema. Then the Berlin Wall fell; the Cold War drew towards a close. In short order, by virtue of great free enterprise activities like motorists speeding, criminality, and terrorism, cameras sprang up in the Free World. Only now cameras were fine, and spying on people became laudable. A classic example of projection, only state projection rather than the individual variety. In the Cold War, we projected onto the Soviets those aspects of ourselves that we denied we possessed. Now the SU has gone. we can not only own those apects, we now think them a Good Thing. Auto |
