BS: Palestinian Negotiation

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 03:01 PM

"All such states are a plague upon their neighbours, and they eventually overreach themselves."

This is true of those states whose ambition is the pursuit of empire but does it hold true to those whose primary goal is self defense ?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM

Ironically enough, it's from the holocaust museum. We now see the sins of the onetime perpetrators of lebensraum being imitated by the sons and grandsons of their victims, but upon someone else entirely! That tends to happen quite often in tbe history of humankind.

Boss yells at man. Man goes home and kicks dog. Dog bites cat. Cat scratches child. Child gives other child black eye. And so it goes...

(and they all feel totally justified in doing it too...)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM

The fact that terrorism against Israel has increased since the beginning of the occupation belies any assertion that the occupation has made it safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:48 PM

Its continued existance in the middle of neighbours who would like to see it disappear has been achieved by great superiority in the methods and techniques of using deadly force.

You could have said the same of Sparta, Prussia, England, the Iroquois, early Rome, Macedonia (under Philip) or any other such aggressive, expansionist national entity in the annals of military history.

Plus...Israel has been massively funded and assisted from abroad, mostly from the USA. That always helps.

Whether or not occupying various pieces of land in the search for "lebensraum" is beneficial or prejudicial to the continued survival of an expansionist state can be debated until hell freezes over without anyone ever reaching a final conclusion on the matter.

One thing I do know. All such states are a plague upon their neighbours, and they eventually overreach themselves.

Here is an article on lebensraum, which might prove instructive:

the practice of occupying others' land - lebensraum

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:48 PM

Well I don't know about you but being blown up by bombs and having rockets rain down on you would fit into my definition of danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Jewish homeland, but it seems to me that after the war the British and Americans put it in the wrong place - ie in the middle of half a billion arabs.

What they should have done for the jews in 1948, of course, is give them Austria. Not as warm, but the skiing's better.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:43 PM

Would it not seem that the fact that Israel still exists as a state nearly 40 years after the 6 days war, surrounded by hostile neighbours as it is, belies the antipathy of it's ocupation?

Not in the least. Israel was never in any real danger from its neighbors. Israel knew/knows this and so do its neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:35 PM

My point is that contrary to what CarolC said about Israel's security not being served by it's occupation of the West Bank etc. I think that it's continued existance in the middle of neighbours who would like to see it disappear disproves that sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:22 PM

Say what? What is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:19 PM

"It's pretty obvious that Israel's security is not being served by the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (and Gaza during its occupation). "

Would it not seem that the fact that Israel still exists as a state nearly 40 years after the 6 days war, surrounded by hostile neighbours as it is, belies the antipathy of it's ocupation ?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:13 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:07 PM

Excellent source, but somehow someone here will pass over on these and find an excuse for them. Did not realise they were so high.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:22 PM

Statistics from B'Tselem:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Index.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:49 AM

Lot of interesting viewpoints above, sadly loss of life will continue in the region and lets not forget that whoever is right or wrong. Saw enough of that at first hand to do me a lifetime. Sorry Bobert point taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: number 6
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:36 AM

Guest ... your figures (2000-2005) for the Palestinian causualties is somewhere close at about 1600 killed by Israeli military, paramilitary and whatever. You have down played the Israeli figures considerably, those figures are are closer to 950 by terrorists and whatever.

Children are included in the fugures for both sides.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:37 PM

Israeli terrorism

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 08:20 PM

No terrorists from Israel?

I beg to differ -

"In the past 18 months, to 1st May, 2002, Israeli terrorists have killed approximately 1,200, Palestinians, (now probably 1,600 - 1,800, up to 12th May 2002). They have used American tanks, American helicopter gunships, American warplanes, and American missiles against civilians.
In the same period, in response to the Israeli killings, Palestinian suicide bombers have killed approximately 200 Israelis.

Ariel Sharon oversaw the slaughter of over 800 Palestinian civilians, mostly women & children, in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in South Beirut in 1982.

In Jenin the Israeli army used bulldozers to crush house in which civilians sheltered, the Israelis used civilians as human shields when they attacked Palestinians and checked for booby traps. These acts fall within the definition of war crimes.

Israel has developed weapons of mass destruction and has over 200 nuclear weapons, and the USA has done nothing about it.

The government of U.S.A. has funded and still funds and arms the Israeli terrorists. This year, 2002, USA government is giving Israel $2,000,000,000 in military aid, that's an awful lot of tanks, helicopter gunships, warplanes, missiles etc.etc. that's an awful lot of dead Palestinians, and that's nothing compared the previous years."

From several sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 07:42 PM

The point I made was in reference to question regarding the UN guarenteeing protection of Isreal...

This threat is not is entitled "Carol C's Thread" or "Divis Sweeney's Thread"...

Even though CarolC is my bud, I have a note right here that says "Bobert is allowed to post stuff that has nuthin' to do with supporting CarolC's positions"... It'a called hte 1st Friggin' Amendment...

Bobert (not CarolC but definately an admirer...)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 07:11 PM

This has nothing to do with the point CarolC is trying to get across. Yes the 1967 victory has to be admired but let's all keep to the point. Running off at the mouth sadly is my preserve !

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:41 PM

And, fir anyone you doesn't remember the '67 war, it was called the "6 Day War" for a reason...

Isreal so iniliated the Arab coilitition in 6 days that it was the Arabs who needed the protecting, not vice versa... It would have been almost a joke for Isral, after crushing its enemys to ask for "protection"....

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:22 PM

Was the U.N. willing to guarantee Israel's security if they withdrew from the pre-67 borders?

It's pretty obvious that Israel's security is not being served by the occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (and Gaza during its occupation). Terrorism against Israel has increased as a result of the occupation, not decreased. And the United States has certainly offered to guarantee Israel's security often enough. That's what we in the US give Israel billions of dollars of our hard-earned tax dollars for every year (that we could be using for health care and better schools, if we were allowed to keep it).

So whether or not the UN would do so is irrelevant, and it's a waste of US tax dollars for Israel to squander that money by making itself less secure with the occupation than it would be otherwise. If Israel can't keep itself safe with its own resources, it sould stop its expansionist policies. Those policies are what create the security risks that Israel faces. Otherwise, we should stop giving them money that we could put to better use here.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 06:18 PM

Sadly both brands seem to have gone. Yes smoking is bad for you, but it cures Kippers !

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM

Yeah ... haven't seen Player's around either Peace ... they would burn your lungs out ... but you always had the calendar around with the pack.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:29 PM

Used to smoke Player's Medium. Haven't had one in years, mostly because I can't find them anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:27 PM

That's even a better reason not to drink.

Player's number six ... was that similar to Player's Navy Cut?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:25 PM

Funny used to smoke Player's number six. Only sang when I did drink. Your right, because the singing wasn't good.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:18 PM

teetotal (nothing to do with tea) I know, but I'm bored ...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:17 PM

Good Divis ... stay on the wagon ...hate to see ya if you were drunk.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:13 PM

Sorry GUEST, Don't drink ! tea total.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:58 PM

Into the guinness a fair bit this fine Friday nite are ya Divis ... I hope you didn't spend all yer week's wages yet.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:31 PM

Mossad,Translation, cowboys who travel on American passports and kill at will.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:19 PM

Very good articles ... thanks for posting them Wolfgang.

"It's bitter, but it's reality. What happens, happens."

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:18 PM

From: GUEST,number 6 - PM
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:19 PM

I disagree vehemently that Israel practices terrorism!

Christ can you believe this guy !

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 02:59 PM

Could Victory Be Undoing of Hamas? (a view from DER SPIEGEL)

Ramallah's Virtual Reality (a view from a German Jew)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 02:54 PM

Teribus,

I'm sure that what you describe will actually happen if they follow your approach. Hard demands before the start of talks is the best way to prevent any change. A more optimistic approach in my eyes is to "pretend" that the other party has already given up the most extreme positions and start talking, then at the end the other side may give up the most extreme positions.

But such an optimistic approach can go wrong (see: Hitler), so I'd be very careful and cautious as an Israeli leader. Less so as a Palestinian leader for they have less to lose and they can survive a big blunder. Israel possibly can't.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 02:14 PM

You (not all) make a nice display here how it could go wrong.

"Never" is a word that should never be read verbatim in politics. I remember reading "not one bullet, not one ounce". I remember DeGaulle making a U-turn on the first day of being president regarding Algeria. I'm fairly sure one could find a Sharon quote with the word "never" in it for something he actually did later.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: bobad
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:24 PM

"occupation is against the Geneva Convention, the United Nations Charter (the very United Nations that people such as yourself use as legal justification for Israel's existance),"

Was the U.N. willing to guarantee Israel's security if they withdrew from the pre-67 borders ?

The Jewish people have learned the hard way not to risk their survival by depending on others to protect them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:22 PM

No .. Divis I have no problem with what you did on your summer vacations. So, what's your specialty ... shooting of kneecaps, making the phone call to the pub with the 15 minute warning, or maybe you were intelligent enough to make it as a money launderer.

dIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:19 PM

ok .... but I disagree vehemently that Israel practices terrorism!

"Hamas would not be in power in Palestine today. " ... I disagree with this, if not Hamas, something else, but very familiar in it's mandate ... it's a lot more complicated than that ... many parties have stirred the pot of discontent in arriving to where the world and the middle east is today. I have mentioned to you this in previous threads.

"According to these legally binding agreements, it is illegal to take territory by conquest."
Opening a rat's nest with that statement ... but I will stay away from it.One would get absolutely no where debating it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:12 PM

Christ I never thought I would get a laugh today.

Finally, the rest of the world is waking up to the fact that the Palenstinians are terrorists. A fact we conservatives have known for a long time.

It's not the Palenstinians bombing the crap out of Iraq by air or letting on they can't find one gentleman in Iran so they can keep their nose in there too.Such a lot of shit you wrote here.
The world knows that American Republicans are the terrorists, not the world's police force as they seem to think they are. Yes num sick, I was on my way to Lybian, got a problem with that ?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:55 PM

number 6, the occupation is against the Geneva Convention, the United Nations Charter (the very United Nations that people such as yourself use as legal justification for Israel's existance), as well as many other international treaties to which Israel is a signatory. According to these legally binding agreements, it is illegal to take territory by conquest.

I am most certainly not defending Hamas, nor terrorism of any form. This includes terrorism as practiced by Israel. I believe in the Rule of Law for everyone, applied equally. You, on the other hand, by defending Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, are defending terrorism.

As I said in my first post to this thread, had Israel obeyed the rule of law, and retreated to the pre-1967 borders (and left the Palestinians in peace), Hamas would not be in power in Palestine today.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:44 PM

"And for you to continue to bring up that old canard "

... first time I ever raised this 'canard'!!

define legal or illegal ... in Israel's occupation?

Anyway ... what is revelant to this discussion is

"Asked if Hamas would ever recognize Israel, Zahar replied: "Never."

So Carol ... are you defending a terrorist organization such as Hamas organization?


sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:38 PM

Larry K, the state of Israel was founded on the practice of terrorism. There would not be a state of Israel today had the people who created it not practiced terrorism. So you are being a total hypocrite to call the Palestinians terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:35 PM

1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

This is a canard as well. Most of the Jews who were living in the area prior to the European's colonizing the area were Palestinians as well. And so were the Christians.

The term "Palestinian" refers to people who had their roots in that area for many generations (over a thousand years). I has nothing whatever to do with their religion. The newcomers were the Europeans. Everyone else was a Palestinian. So yes, "land of their forefathers" is a perfectly apt term to use for the area that the Palestinians want to keep as their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM

number 6, your questions about me handing over my land have no relevance whatever to this discussion. I am not, nor have I ever suggested that Israel be given back to the Palestinians. And for you to continue to bring up that old canard in discussions like this one is an insult to your own intelligence as well as mine.

What I am talking about, and what most others are talking about is for Israel to end its illegal occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and its illegal blockading of Gaza. Israel (the country that exists within the Green Line) should stay exactly where it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM

"Where's Jimmy Carter when America so desperatly needs him???"

In case you haven't noticed Bobert ... times have significantly changed sinced those days.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:42 AM

Hmmmm????

Seems as if a lot of non-Isrealis here in Mudville seem to think the sky is about to fall upon Isreal...

I just heard on NPR a recent poll taken of Isreali's even before the welection that indictated that 48% of Isrealis had no problems negotiating with Hamas with 43% opposed...

Yeah, polls can be misleading but I think it is safe to assume that when Bush says that he has no intentions of talking with Hamas until Hamas has kissed King George's feet and met all King Georges pre-talk commandments... that King George is not speaking for either the majority of Isreali's or Americans...

Sure will be nice when this cowboy is gone and no longer a emaressmant to the United States and menace to the world...

Where's Jimmy Carter when America so desperatly needs him???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:39 AM

"I visited Palestine twice during the seventies and saw it at first hand, have any of you ? "

was that a stop off on you way to a Lybian terrorist camp Divis??

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: Peace
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:32 AM

Lost your cookie, Larry?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestinian Negotiation
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:21 AM

"Finally, the rest of the world is waking up to the fact that the Palenstinians are terrorists. A fact we conservatives have known for a long time."

Now the truth is before our eyes.

Right on Larry k.!!

The bottom line to all this is that the Hamas are terrorist who propose the destruction Israel ... terror, murder, genocide, violence.

sIx