BS: Zionist Negotiation ?

Subject: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:20 AM

How do negotiate with people who believe that Palestine is their land because God gave it to them three and a half thousand years ago?

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:25 AM

I'll bite. How?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: harmony
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:25 AM

not sure. human beings seemed destined to destroy each other by outlandish claims to land and property.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:26 AM

Oh. Thought it was a joke coming on.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:31 AM

"May 14, 1948: late morning eastern standard time (late afternoon in Palestine): David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, reads a "Declaration of Independence," which proclaims the existence of a Jewish state called Israel beginning on May 15, 1948, at 12:00 midnight Palestine time (6:00 p.m., May 14, 1948,eastern standard time).

May 14, 6 p.m. eastern standard time (12:00 midnight in Palestine): The British mandate for Palestine expires, and the state of Israel comes into being.

May 14, 6:11 p.m. eastern standard time: The United States recognizes Israel on a de facto basis. The White House issues the following statement: "This Government has been informed that a Jewish state has been proclaimed in Palestine, and recognition has been requested by the provisional government thereof. The United States recognizes the provisional government as the de facto authority of the State of Israel." To see a color copy of this document click here.

May 14, shortly after 6:11 p.m. eastern standard time: United States representative to the United Nations Warren Austin leaves his office at the United Nations and goes home. Secretary of State Marshall sends a State Department official to the United Nations to prevent the entire United States delegation from resigning.

May 15: On May 15, 1948, the Arab states issued their response statement and Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq attack Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:33 AM

I genuinely wish it were.

Maybe a suitable punch line would be "Tell them there is no God"

But I suspect that won't help much.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

As if the land belongs to anyone. I "own" a house but recognize that it is mine until I die. Then it will "belong" to whoever moves in after me. And 50 years from now no one will remember my name. But the house will.
It is not the ssame with countries. I try to imagine what my reaction would be if Japan, for instance, suddenly claimed California as its own based on some document from 976AD. I don't think that I would buy into it peacefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 12:41 PM

How do negotiate with people who believe that Palestine is their land because God gave it to them three and a half thousand years ago?

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, that they were given that land by divine decree, as they claim. That very same G*d who, according to them and according to their holy books, gave them that land, also took it away from them in punishment for their misdeeds there, and he forbade them to try to take it back by force. In fact, according to their holy books, he forbade them to try take it back under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,bible reader
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:15 PM

Let's say, just for the sake of the argument, that they were given that land by divine decree, as they claim. That very same G*d who, according to them and according to their holy books, gave them that land, also took it away from them in punishment for their misdeeds there, and he forbade them to try to take it back by force. In fact, according to their holy books, he forbade them to try take it back under any circumstances.

Firstly, according to the holy books that I've read, it was the pagan Romans that took away the land from the Jews and sent most of them off into exile.

Secondly, you are a liar when you state that God forbade the Jews from taking back the land. Tell us exactly where in the Jewish holy books that God says that.

As Christians, according our holy books, the Jews reclamation to the land is an essential component in the conditions for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:51 PM

So G*d gave it to them and man took it away? The biblical Israel (according to the Bible) was taken from the original inhabitants by force of arms and by genocide. But G*d is credited as having placed a divine decree upon this act of taking land and lives by the Jews. If it was G*d who gave it to them, it seems to me an act of blasphemy to suggest that that same G*d would have allowed anyone to take it away without his decree. However, don't just take my word for it.

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

Torah Devorim 30:1

Collection of scriptural verses that show that only G*d will redeem the Jews from their exile

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:00 PM

CarolC,

I'm LOL!!!

You found propaganda from fringe Jews who hate Israel. They have no credibility with almost all Jews of all denominations are political stripes.

I particularly got a giggle from the "Why Orthodox Jews are opposed to a Zionist state" site. The Jews that you quote are to Judaism what Pat Robertson is to Christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: GUEST,Normie the Fink
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:11 PM

I'm Jewish and I hate Israel too. Then again, I've been a self-hating Jew since childhood when my parents caught me jacking off to pictures of Jackie Kennedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM

Hitler had a hypothetical plan (before the war) to move all the Jews to Madagascar. It was a patently ridiculous idea, but I guess he thought Madagascar was far enough away (and unimportant enough) that it would be tolerable to have the Jews there (from his point of view).

Various other people had the patently ridiculous idea of moving European Jews back to Palestine, where they had not been for a very long time indeed (if their ancestors had EVER been), and giving them the land there which already belonged to other people, on the basis of some ancient holy books...but mostly because nobody else wanted to give the Jews a homeland on their own soil...so why not give them Palestine?

In other words, dump the problem on somebody else who is too weak and disorganized to do much about it.

Only a world awash in collective guilt at the end of WWII could have come up with such a lunatic notion. And now we are all paying the price for it with the loss of our security.

God did not make some people more special than others, regardless of what the Bible has to say about it. To think that some people ARE more special than others is the kind of thinking the Nazis indulged in...and you see the results.

The whole problem between Zionists and Muslim extremists is they think exactly the same way. They think they're more special and more right than the other guy, and they've got the holy books to back them up...some of which are even the SAME holy books!

Keep in mind, though, the Muslims revere Jesus as a genuine prophet of God, and one of the most important ones too. The Jews don't. That being the case, it's rather odd that Jews and Christians are presently in an alliance against Muslims! It shows you just how arbitrary and phony the whole business is in the final analysis.

And then there's all that OIL...hmmmmm.

This fight is not just about religion. Not by any means. It's about raw power and who has it and who doesn't.

Pied Piper - You said: "Maybe a suitable punch line would be "Tell them there is no God" But I suspect that won't help much.

Well, look at it this way. "God" is a thought...a concept...in someone's mind. I mean, even if there is or is not a God in the sense you would mean, the God that any particular person means when they say "God" is...they mean their mental concept OF God. Now that exists. It has effect. Your mental concepts have effect on you. Mine have effect on me. If I feel that I'm "in love" (a strictly mental concept) with someone else, it has a powerful effect on me. For you or anyone else to tell me that my love does not exist is silly. It exists for me. You cannot deny the chosen mental concepts of other people as being real for them, because those mental concepts have real effect on those other people. So...you simply CAN'T say "there is no God" as long as anyone believes there is. You can say that "He" isn't physical, perhaps...that he isn't out there in a particular place in space...you can say that you don't share that concept, etc...but you cannot say that he isn't real for those who think he is, because ideas ARE real. Ideas can motivate entire societies and change the world. Something that can do that is real. An idea is not physical, it does not occupy space, you can't examine it in a lab or measure it, but it's real. It's a mental energy form, and energy is real.

You see, the problem with both the Israelis and the Arabs is...they don't regard the other's relgious (or other) ideas as being real...and they have no respect for them. That's a fundamental error on the part of both of them. It's called "intolerance". It's the same thing that drove the Nazis to commit terrible crimes on humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:34 PM

Doesn't really matter how other Jews see them, GUEST. The scriptural text has been provided. You can't selectively use Jewish religious texts to promote a political agenda and expect to be taken seriously by intelligent people. That makes you the equivalent of Pat Robertson.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 03:33 PM

Thank you, Pied Piper, for bringing this fatuous, disengenous, and completely idiotic debate back online--has it been ten minutes already, since it was last dragged out?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:21 PM

CarolC, even if one accepts scriptural texts as factual, pulling an odd verse out of minor books (and out of context) really means nothing.

The fact that many people choose to ignore is that, until the series of wars that began less than 24 hours after the declaration of Israel as a nation, most of the territory which constituted the state in 1949 had been purchased under either Turkish or Mandate law from its prior owners. It is entirely true that thousands of refugees were created by a succession of Arab defeats, mostly following Arab aggression or credible threats of invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:28 PM

As Christians, according our holy books, the Jews reclamation to the land is an essential component in the conditions for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not the view of all Christians.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:29 PM

We can argue those specifics if you want to, artbrooks. I maintain that your assertions are incorrect. Most of the land that comprised what is now Israel was stolen from its original occupants, much of the time, at the point of a gun. And further, the war was started by Israel, before it declared its independence. This is a proven fact. The act of driving thousands of Arabs from their homes and villages at gunpoint prior to the declaration of Israel's independence was the start of the war. The Arab countries entered a war that had already been started by those who became Israelis after independence. It is always the case that when Israel starts a war, it only calls it a war after the people they have attacked respond.

However, that is not the thrust of this thread. The thrust of this thread has to do with the idea that the land that is now called "the state of Israel" was given to Jews by their God.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:35 PM

Sorry, CarolC, but you are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:03 PM

MG, I have not heard or read anything that indicates that CarolC sides with terrorists or hates Jews. Israel is not "the Jews", or vice versa. She is entitled to her opinion; in my opinion, hers does not correspond with generally accepted historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:06 PM

Thanks, artbrooks. Nevertheless, I am not wrong. It is a proven fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:41 PM

There are 2 types of negotiation, I think. The first is based on goodwill. The second is based on strength, in the absence of goodwill.

Given the fact that there is little goodwill ever expressed by either Israel toward Muslims or Muslims toward Israel, I expect we will see only the 2nd type of negotiation...plus further armed conflict. Armed conflict is itself a very crude form of negotiation, after all. The most crude form of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:22 PM

With all due respect, CarolC, you can't throw six million Israelis out of their homes just because you are unhappy about what happened more than fifty years ago, when they acquired the property--

The real claim that Israelis have to Israel is that they live there now. The business about the "Promised Land" is a nice thought, but the fact is that Israel was established by a UN mandate, and it's there, it's been there, and it isn't going anywhere--like it, or not.

It is unfortunate that blood was spilled when Israel was founded. It is unfortunate that people lost property that maybe shouldn't have lost it, it is most unfortunate that the displaced people has never been relocated. And perhaps most unfortunate of all that the promised Palestinian State has never come to fruition.

The Jews who created Israel were a displace people who had a powerful determination to survive, and who took that determination and created a new nation. Unfortunately, the Palestinians never had that determination--and a Palestinian state has never been established.

That's the reality. The rest of this stuff doesn't really make much difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:24 PM

War possesses, it is true, its own grammar but not its own logic. War can never be separated from political relations, and if this separation occurs anywhere in the study, all the threads of the relations are broken in one way or another and there only remains a thing without meaning or purpose.

Karl von Clauswitz, On War, 1832.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

With all due respect, CarolC, you can't throw six million Israelis out of their homes just because you are unhappy about what happened more than fifty years ago, when they acquired the property--

M.Ted, please show me where I have suggested that anyone throw six million Israelis out of their homes. In fact, if you take a look at my previous posts on this subject, you will see that I have repeatedly stated that Israel within the pre-1967 borders should remain what it is.

However, people are constantly using the biblical argument to justify the continued occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem (and forced removal of Palestinians from their homes), when all of their non bible-related arguments fall flat on their figurative faces. So as long as people continue to use that argument to justify Israeli expansion (beyond the 1967 borders), that argument is fair game for people to debate, as I am doing here in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:58 PM

As Christians, according our holy books, the Jews reclamation to the land is an essential component in the conditions for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not the view of virtually ALL "christians"- only by the small number that accept the "rapure" (or is that rupture?) scenario invented out of whole cloth by a couple of 19th century lunatics.


Hell, the Raelians have more credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:04 PM

The term Zionist in the title of the thread is fair warning that objectivity, while not easy in this issue, isn't even desired, much less aimed at.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:23 PM

CarolC,to quote you:>> Most of the land that comprised what is now Israel was stolen from its original occupants, much of the time, at the point of a gun.

This statement has nothing to do with 1967 boundaries. What reason is there for saying somethinglike this, if not that you believe that establishing Israel was somehow criminal, and therefore it is not legitimate? This sort of talk is tired, old, rhetoric. The melodramatic phrases have no use, other than to generate anger--

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:46 PM

Why, Don?   Does it sound more ethnic than "lebensraum"?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 12:22 PM

Keep deleting it and I'll keep posting this:

Threads like this show who supports terrorism and who hates Israel and the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:25 PM

M. Ted, if you would actually read the discussion, rather than projecting your own idea of what I am saying onto me, you would see that I was correcting something artbrooks posted that is factually incorrect.

The tired old rhetoric is the idea that the Palestinians deserve to be held in total subjugation and endless bondage by the state of Israel because, according to the totally false historical narrative that is promoted by Israel and repeated by people like artbrooks, the Arabs started the war after Israel declared its independence.

Until people stop repeating these outright lies, and people start telling the truth, Israel will continue to commit these crimes against the Palestinians, and people like you and artbrooks will help them do it.

It's time to end the occupation. No more excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:34 PM

Israel will never give up the land, Carol C It is theirs and you side with a people that elected world renowned terrorists.

More here should speak up and confront you with that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:36 PM

We shall see, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM

Whether they do here or not, you and your terrorist heroes will not get their way.

I know people in Israel and it will not happen. Now isn't it time you prayed to Allah?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 02:08 PM

Hate-filled agendas like yours, Martin, have a way of backfiring eventually. It may take some time, but eventually, your karma is going to catch up with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 03:59 PM

God belongs to all people, not just the people in one self-idolizing, self-glorifying, archaic, and insane fundamentalist religion. God didn't write the holy books, a bunch of old men wrote them a long time ago, imagining that THEY were the one and only voice of God! What gall. As if God was that limited! Sheesh. It boggles the mind what people can believe.

Somebody could tell that to both the orthodox Jews AND the Muslim fundamentalists, but I doubt that it would do any good whatsoever. Their dogma requires them not to listen to any differing opinions, doesn't it? It SAYS so in their book! That's a catch-22. It deprives you of the need to ever think independently again. Just quote the friggin' book! That's what the Red Guards did...they quoted Chairman Mao...and a billion Chinese can't be wrong, can they? Ha! You BET they can be wrong. So can a few million Israelis and Arabs.

As for terrorists, terrorists are people who terrorize civilian populations. Period.   They wear many different nations' uniforms...or no uniform at all...which makes no difference whatsoever to the grieving families of the people they kill.

The "Enola Gay", for instance, was a famous terrorist airplane. It killed far more people in one shot than Hamas has ever managed to so far. That doesn't make Hamas better, morally speaking...it just makes them much less effective as terrorists. The US Air Force is way better at getting the terrorism job done than Hamas could ever dream of being, unless Hamas gets some nukes and a means of launching them. Let's hope they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 04:00 PM

It is somewhat of a surprise to me to learn that I am an advocate of a continuation of Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people. Oh well, a day in which one doesn't learn something new is said to be a wasted day.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:15 PM

It is somewhat of a surprise to me to learn that I am an advocate of a continuation of Israeli crimes against the Palestinian people.

Whether or not you advocate them, you are helping to support them when you help Israel justify it's policies towards the Palestinians by repeating their fabricated version of history.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:20 PM

LOL! Now there's sarcasm. No, we wouldn't want a wasted day, would we, Art?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:26 PM

Nope. Next thing I'll learn is that I'm a closet Republican, a Budweiser drinker or a homophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:55 PM

Well, Carol C., it is time for justification, or it will be anhiliation.

You can't reason with terrorists who use suicide bombers to blow up children. support that too, don't you?

The respectable newspapers today are full of anti-Hamas articles and you just keep backing them. CarolC, I have come to the conclusion that you are truly an enemy of Israel and all Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

"a Budweiser drinker or a homophobe"

Bud's not very good beer, IMO. However, what the hell's wrong with homogenized milk?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:13 PM

It's not real food, that's what! Milk is for baby cows. People shouldn't drink it at all if they know what's good for them. It's bad for you. Spread the word and cause maximum pain to the dairy industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:30 PM

Hey LH, I was gonna say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:41 PM

I saw a site a few months back which showed the following: The five heaviest (per capita) dairy-product consuming countries in the world also have the highest per capita rate of osteoporosis. Huh!

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:48 PM

If y6ou don't like homoginized milk you must be a homophobe.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 08:52 PM

More like a homolactophobe to be precise.

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:00 PM

No, how about a homoprophylactic?

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: bobad
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:01 PM

Much of the world's population does not consume cow's milk, and yet most of the world does not experience the high rates of osteoporosis found in the West. In some Asian countries, for example, where consumption of dairy foods is low, fracture rates are far lower than they are in the United States and in Scandinavian countries, where consumption of dairy products is high.

From http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 09:15 PM

Thanks for that, bobad.