BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:26 PM

And I'm right there with you Six. All people on concience are.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

I will never ever forget the holocaust ... and I will never ever shy away from ever it happening again ... and I will never, ever turn my head away from any group albeit white supremests, religeous fundimentalists that advocate the destruction of my mother's people. I will also champion the cause of any other race, religeous group who also are the target of such absolute destruction and hate.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 03:48 PM

Sorry LH ... your post doesn't cut it.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 02:23 PM

Oh, I'm well aware of that, Nutty. (and Auggie) Yes, it's been around for a very long time.

Still, I think the term "anti-semitism" has been overused, and used in an irresponsible way in recent historical times, and that that has backfired upon the very people who are most inclined to use it.

It has become a self-serving propaganda term, a knee-jerk reaction.

Look, suppose you have someone among a group of people. Let's call him "Ed". Ed is quite paranoid. This may be because his family had a tough time in the past or it may be for some other reasons. Anyway, here's the thing about Ed. He is constantly accusing people of not liking him, just because he IS who he is.

"You hate me, don't you?" Ed says to people. "Don't deny it. I know that deep down you hate me and would like to see me dead! Well, I'm not going to put up with it. I'm going to see that you don't get away with your hatred of me."

This goes on for years and years. Ed is so convinced that most people are against him that he is on constant guard, just watching for any sign of prejudice on their part. This makes it harder and harder for Ed to have friends. In fact, Ed has almost no friends by the time he reaches adulthood.

As time goes by, Ed notices that fewer and fewer people want to be anywhere near him. He notices that people are avoiding him, looking at him strangely, and they're not inviting him to their birthday parties. More evidence of rampant anti-Edism! Ed's paranoia grows by leaps and bounds, and he arms himself to the teeth, fearing an attack at any moment.

In the meantime, many of the people who live anywhere near Ed actually are starting to hate and fear him, since extreme negativity breeds extreme counter-negativity in most people. They start arming themselves also, fearing that Ed may go berserk and attack them. This causes Ed to grow even more fearful, so he decides the best thing to do might be to pre-emptively attack them first. In case it doesn't work out, he wires the whole neighborhood up to an atomic bomb which he can trigger at the last extremity..."If I go down, then they're all gonna go down with me!" Assuming Ed can find a girl willing to marry him, he will teach his kids to think the same way he does...

You can see where all this is going, can't you...

If anyone believes that their people are the world's number one most martyred and put-upon people EVER...then they are in the same position as ED...and they are creating their own personal hell.

I have seen this done in recent times by plenty of people: some Jews, some Native Americans, some blacks, some Muslims, the white supremacists and survivalists, the KKK, the Nazis, and so on.

It's not smart. It never helps. It makes enemies out of potential friends. It creates havoc. It is self-defeating in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: nutty
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:53 AM

LITTLE HAWK ........the reason that Anti-semitism is recognised specifically is because it has been around for at least 1000 years in just about every part of the world. For info relating to Britain and Europe ......

SEE HERE

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:48 AM

Good point, Auggie.

What then, would you call the Armenians or the Sudanese?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 12:27 AM

When several million Canadian men, women, and small children are rounded up, forced from their homes, have their possessions stolen, are transported in cattle cars and then either worked to death, starved to death or killed outright, all in retaliation for simply being Canadian, maybe then Little Hawk, someone wil coin that word you seem to long for. Until then I'd be grateful that no one has found it necessary thus far.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:15 PM

Not everyone was taking snips, throwing mud and playing games. But it does disturb me the lack if insensitivity displayed by a few. This can be blamed only on ignorance and misunderstanding.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:17 PM

McGrath of Harlow wrote:

"I wish more people could treat threads about issues that carry an emotional weight as discussions rather than as games or fights, or an occasioin to throw insults around. I don't think the point should be to win an argument, it should be to get a better understanding of issues that divide people, and of where it is the disagreements actually lie".

-snip-

Thanks, McGrath for so succiently putting into words a concern and a wish of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:41 PM

Joe, agreeing with evil is not my style.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:25 PM

I still find it odd that the Jews are the only persecuted group in modern history (as far as I know) to get a special word, "anti-semitism", coined with which to mark anyone who, say, disagrees with the state of Israel's policies in some way.

Why don't Blacks, Canadians, Germans, Australian Aboriginals, Tibetans, Armenians, Kurds, Sunnis, Shias, Swiss, Norwegians, Belgians, Chinese, Russians, topless dancers, red-haired people, dachshunds, dentists, and Newfoundlanders get their own special words with which to brand all people who disagree with them?

If we Canadians, for example, had such a special word as "anti-semitism" which we could regularly use in the press and movies to single out and vilify any people who appear to be disagreeing with us about policy (or anything else), then we would be able to destroy political careers and ruin people's professional reputations much more easily, and that would give us greater power all over the place.

On second thought...forget it. We'd probably just end up surrounded by implacable enemies eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM

Reading this thread has felt to me somewhat like watching fragments of a variety of chess matches being played simultaneously.

I'd say it's more like a bunch of people simultaneously playing in matches of chess, bare-knuckle fighting, poker and tennis. Against opponents who are playing Blind Man's Buff, tag and uphill skiiing. It gets confusing.

But essentially I think autolycus has it right. And most especially in saying "I would appreciate it if every question gets a direct answer."

I wish more people could treat threads about issues that carry an emotional weight as discussions rather than as games or fights, or an occasioin to throw insults around. I don't think the point should be to win an argument, it should be to get a better understanding of issues that divide people, and of where it is the disagreements actually lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:04 PM

The above post should have been addressed to Michelle. Sorry, we cross posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 07:03 PM

I've never heard Bobert complain that we were anti-Bobert.

Martin, on the other hand, continues to whine:

Nobody likes me
Everybody hates me
Think I'll eat some worms.

Martin just wants attention. Why don't you PM the dude and arrange a quiet little get-together. You sound like two of a kind to me. You probably appreciate his opinions about women, too. Talk about self-loathing!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 06:52 PM

As a Jew, I feel relieved that despite the volleys of abuse, most posters remain supportive or neutral vis-a-vis Jews.
I would appreciate it if every question gets a direct answer. Having read thru the thread, lots of pointful questions have remained unanswered. One response that I wish we read at all on threads like this is, "I don't know."
"It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege
of wisdom to listen." Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Despite para 2 above, I don't imagine that all of the action is in the realm of the rational, tho' the rational side of me wishes desperately that it was.
I take it as a matter of course that there may be some anti-Jewish opinion among catters, as there is anti-lotsofthings, and there is, more clearly, much pro-Jewish and neutral-Jewish opinion, too. Some of us Jews can live with it as something we can't do much about.
Possibly the prevalence of the phrase "anti-semitism" is a direct consequence of the Shoah (tho' Arabs are Semites !!). There are, of course, any numbers of groups that some people are anti.
I'd like to know what lashing out aggressively at an opponent is supposed to achieve. Persuasion? Winning an argument? Winning a war by other means?
Reading this thread has felt to me somewhat like watching fragments of a variety of chess matches being played simultaneously.

Would nutmeg work in a home-made spaghetti?


Auto.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: LilyFestre
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 06:15 PM

Just having read maybe 15 posts or so of this thread, I think it is very interesting that Bobert continues to babble on about how Martin starts the same types of threads. Hmmm, well excuse me, but Bobert, your threads appear much more often with the same topic. The name George Bush ring a bell?

Good thread Martin, very interesting. I'll be reading more.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:51 PM

"Then Little Hawk should have his pee-pee whacked with a hair brush."

Usually, one has to pay for that!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:48 PM

Read this thread with great interest. Of course, I've been around here far too little to comment on anti-semitic threads/posts, etc. Martin: yer obviously in a much better position to evaluate such posts than me.

I can honestly say this is the first forum I've been on that has such a post. I'm not much anti-anything ('cept for Nazis!!!). Honestly, I think most folks here avoid such inflammatory kinds of posts...but like I said, I'm relatively new here.

Simplicitly stated, all this jingoistic pro and con will need to cease. My 2 cents, probably worth less. BTW, my "P" key is MIA. Looks like I'll have to order in a new keyboard for one, lousy key!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM

Six,

I'm not surprised.

My point was to correct the impression that CarolC was trying to cultivate about how well Jews are treated in Saudi Arabia in comparison to the discrimination against Arabs in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM

Well, Martin, Carol has a point - and so do you. Now if the two of you could begin to see the truth in the other's point of view, we might have the makings of a very fruitful discussion.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:04 PM

BTW Begin the Beguine ... Christians, Bhuddists, and all other infidels are not allowed to be granted citizenship in the Saudi ... citizenship is only reserved for Muslims, and Muslims only.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:01 PM

Well, Martin, Carol has a point - and so do you. Now if the two of you could begin to see the truth in the other's point of view, we might have the makings of a very fruitful discussion.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:58 PM

CarolC is, of course, wrong when she says that Jews can (probably) be citizens of Saudi Arabia.

In point of fact, Jews are not permitted to be citizens of Saudi Arabia. Companies that advertise for people to work in Saudi Arabia are required to carefully screen applicants to ensure that they hire no Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:15 PM

Carole writes "By the way, trying to make Israel look good by comparing it to a totalitarian state like Saudi Arabia is not a good way to try to get your point across."
You see - this is a double standard that Carole and many others don't get. Jews don't have rights in most Arab countries, and most of those are totalitarian states with very poor human rights records and unethical governments which also support Arab militant and terrorist groups with clear goals towards the destruction of Israel. Israel is completely surrounded by enemies (except for Egypt and Jordon, who have managed to recognise and work with the Jewish state). How come this is never mentioned or championed by Carole C. as she so vigorously champions the Palestinian cause?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:07 PM

That was a personal attack and I demand that it be deleated !!!!

Then Little Hawk should have his pee-pee whacked with a hair brush.

Damn Yankee !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:00 PM

There are plenty of good excuses for being Anti-Texan.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:55 PM

I've always suspected that CarolC was an anti-Texan just like Little Hawk. Once I have all of my proof I'll unmask her for the anti-Texan she really is.

Carol - The eyes of Texas are upon you. All the livelong day !!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:47 PM

No, you can't change CarolC's mind.

I created this thread to show just how anti-Israel, anti Jewish she and others are here and I have succeeded.

Thanks for the opportunity.

Watch for it to happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Raptor
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:26 PM

Carol Martin Six

Do any of you think that you will change each other's Minds?

This has the makings of a good discussion but there is too much anger here.

I'm learning a lot about the subject but for pete's sake stop the fighting or give up.

Raptor(not a Jew)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:10 PM

It appears the link maker isn't working .. here's the URL:

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/pages/1/index.htm

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:06 PM

here it is ..

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:58 AM

There is a new generation of Israelis ... views are changing and slowly, better than never, land is being given back to the Palestinians.

All sides have to have an understanding of each other. I'm amazed by how many people I meet, are ignorant of Israel, and they are equally so of the Palestinians.

Here is an interesting website if one care to take a look ...
Arabs for Israel

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 04:41 AM

Well, gee, Carol, wasn't Israel established as a homeland for Jewish people, people who had deprived of a homeland for two millenia? If that is the founding premise of Israel, does it really seem unfair to offer citizenship to Jews?

Yes, there were many Palestinians displaced as a result of the establishment of Israel - there is a tangled web of reasons for this displacement, and the blame can't really be placed on the majority of the current citizens of Israel. Israel was established before I was born, and it seems to me it's time to forget the injustices committed then and deal with the present situation. Israel exists as a Jewish homeland, and it's not likely to go away. What needs to be done now, is the establishment of a homeland for Paelstinians, a homeland that allows Palestinians a standard of living equal to that of the Israelis (and Jewish Israelis appear to have a very good standard of living).

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 03:03 AM

I think the Law of Return means that you have a right to citizenship if you return. If, on the other hand, you are a Jew living in Chicago, you are not automatically a citizen of Israel. You must actually go to Israel to be granted citizenship. If you have never been to Israel, you are not a citizen.

As usual, Martin is full of sh**.

Maybe he would like to explain this contorted and confusing statement, "just cause devisifness. None of your fanaticism will ever be implicated."

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM

Well than that is an issue, but it does not prove I'm wrong

Yes it does. It proves that the right of citizenship you are talking about only applies to people with Jewish ancestry. Which proves my point about Israel's laws that discriminate against people who are not Jews, or who do not have Jewish ancestry.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:56 AM

Well than that is an issue, but it does not prove I'm wrong ... I am familiar with the citizenship issue myself through my son's wife (she is a citizen by the Law of Return)if they had a child it would be an Israeli citizen automatically ... what I posted can be found at various sites throughout the web, and I have checked it out. Check it out yourself.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:47 AM

(You have to scroll down a bit if you click on the link.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:43 AM

This is an Israeli citizen whose child is not being granted Israeli citizenship...


"I've been sent this report from the Arab Human Rights Association in Israel (AHRA). Headed 3 year old lives in anonymity in Baqa al Gharbiyyah, the article sets out how it is that the child of an Israeli mother is barred from attaining Israeli citizenship:

    The Israeli Interior Ministry continues to repeatedly refuse Israeli citizenship to Qadar Ismail Mawasi, who three years ago was born in Nabulus when her mother from Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel was visiting her husband in the West Bank city.

    Qadar's name was also not imprinted on her mother's ID as is usually done for children of Israeli parents. This denial of identity stems from the fact that she was born at the Rafidia hospital in Nabulus. Qadar's brothers, Fahmi and Ahmad are both Israeli citizens.

    Qadar's mother, Izdihar Mawasi, says, "When I was in my last month of pregnancy (3 years ago) I was visiting my husband Ismail at his home in Nabulus; being from the West Bank, he is forbidden entrance into Israel. During that visit, I felt that I was about to deliver, so began my return to Baqa al Gharbiyyah. However, I was stopped at the checkpoint leading into Israel due to a security closure. This kept me in Nabulus, even though I told security staff that I was on the verge of delivery". Shortly after Qadar was born, Izdihar's husband suffered a heart attack and passed away; all this time her daughter had been living with her in Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel.

    Izdihar then attempted to have her daughter registered at the Interior Ministry in Israel given their current residence within the State and Izdihar's status as an Israeli citizen, but was refused. Again, the reason given was that Qadar was born in Nabulus. Izdihar has been going to the Interior Ministry on multiple occasions (with all the appropriate documentation) but has continually been denied identity papers for her daughter.

    Izdihar fears much for her daughter's future because it rests in uncertainty. The fact that three year old Qadar has no identity papers implies she is not registered by the government, and therefore registering her in school and ensuring access to health care is also put into question."

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:36 AM

Where exactly?

If we're looking at scoring points here ... I have proved you wrong too.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:34 AM

No, that's not true. I proved you wrong on the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

I posted that??

I posted somewhere about the fact that a child born outside of Israel to one parent who is a citizen of Israel has automatic citizinship to Israel ... that's a fact, and I beleive it is a fact with most countries.

And something about the Law of Return ... granting immigration and citizenship.

Thems the Facts

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:12 AM

The stuff you put on the other thread about how the spouses and offspring of all Israelis have automatic rights to Israeli citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:04 AM

What factual errors Carol C.??

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:03 AM

No, it looks to me like you are one of the people who is presenting the factual errors, number 6.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:02 AM

I'm presenting facts regarding Israel .... it certainly has it's faults, but it certainly isn't as bad as what is being made out here. True understanding is important.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:59 PM

Yes, my country is pretty bad in many respects. But I admit it freely, and I'm not trying to cover up what's wrong with my country. And correcting people's factual errors about Israel is not "mud slinging". It's called "telling the truth". If people weren't so determined to present the factual errors in the first place, they wouldn't need to be corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:56 PM

I know nothing of Art Brook's wife and what she is being dicrminated against.

I just hate all this mud slinging at Israel concerning rights. Jezuz, take a look at your own country. Hell, even Canada has some faults and skeletons in the closet.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:48 PM

Here's another way of looking at it. If the government of the United States was discriminating against artbrooks' Jewish wife as much as Israel discriminates against non-Jewish Israelis, artbrooks would not be defending it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:45 PM

By the way, trying to make Israel look good by comparing it to a totalitarian state like Saudi Arabia is not a good way to try to get your point across.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:45 PM

More like NOT!

sIx