BS: More Insult to the Poor

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:32 AM

Don Firth @ 7:34 PM

True, Don, but I don't know if some are smug or not. Sometimes feel very fortunate, however.


Agree with Bobert on who is born into what - that is why I suggested emphasis on the pre-school ages. More mentoring perhaps as the parents are usually caught up in the system.

I remember Newt Gingrich being ripped about 10 years ago for his suggestion of more "childrens' homes", i.e. Orphanages.

A harsh thought to many (normally those who don't have a clue regarding the situation) but I have seen more positive than negative results from this approach.

Janie, your comments?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 06:16 AM

In case anybody wants to know "evils done by legal aid societies" is sarcastic-- as you know, the first time I've ever used sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:49 AM

Shame I picked the wrong parent. I thought for sure I'd picked the right family to be into & get myself born rich. Hell, I was wearing a fur collar right at the start. Gee & I thought it was mink all along it was only fox.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

Larry K--

You may "work with" low income folk.

However:

1)   You say you "know the poor". Not likely.

"The position many of them take is that there are no jobs and it is up to government to provide them with money"

Nobody denies that some of the poor do this. The question is whether it is "many" or, as you imply in your post, "most". "Most" is dead wrong, "many" is totally subjective on your part and carries no weight--especially against the experience of Janie, who has a more substantial sample to draw from. It sounds like with you it's back to the good old days of Mr. Reagan's welfare Cadillac--a handy stereotype to beat the poor and justify your own selfishness.

2)   You had 2 stents put in. Had you had no health insurance, which is prohibitively expensive to many self-employed or working poor--and a major problem for them-- you would have had huge expenses. Any argument here? Many of the self-employed or working poor would have been bankrupted by the cost.

3) You rail against government and tell us constantly taxes should be lower--i.e. government should be smaller. Who pays for your talks to low-income people? You obviously give a lot of them. It sounds as if it would be reasonable to suspect you derive some income from them. Perhaps your company derives a tax benefit from the service. Is there no government funding involved, directly or indirectly?
"Human Services Agency", for instance.   "Legal Aid Society" certainly receives some government funding. The Wall St Journal editorial page, one of your happy hunting grounds, has fulminated often enough against the evils done by legal aid societies (e.g. aiding and abetting class action suits) and many times advocated cutting off all funding.

Unless I miss my guess, your connection with the "Legal Aid Society", and possibly others, makes you a hog slopping at the government trough---and just possibly, a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM

Susu's hubby said, "The socialist idea that just throwing more money at it with no accountability will solve it is wishful thinking at best."

Where did you get the idea? Seems to me that it doesn't really matter who is in government, throwing money around with no accountability is a bad idea.

Bush has sure thrown alot of money at KBR (Halliburton) with little or no accountability. This is not a Socialist phenomena. It is just plain old bad government.

I don't think Janie, or anyone else, is suggesting that there should be no accountability. In fact, anyone who has ever worked in the social services knows that a good portion of the money allocated to social services is actually spent on bureacratic paperwork (accountability). Nobody here is advocating spending your tax dollars on system abusers, either. Of course these people exist but they are the minority.

What is needed is the funding of services which will help people become independent wage earners. Since I think most people would agree to this concept, why isn't it happening? Why are we so concerned about the people of Iraq when we should be concentrating on helping the needy here at home.

17.8% of children live in poverty. These are innocent children. If we don't give the help to them now, they will most definitely need social services for the rest of their lives. Pay now or pay later.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:45 PM

Exactly, Bruce...

"Hey, if ye' din't want to be poor then you picked the wrong parents..." (spit)...

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:36 PM

The easiest way to become rich or very well-off is to have the good sense to be born into a rich or very well-off family. Hell, if yer too stupid to make the right choice to begin with . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

Well, one alarming fact seems to rebutt the thoughts by some that poverty is the result of making bad choices... In reality the envirnoment that ones is born into will determine one's success of failure in life more than any other factor... Most folks who are poor were born into poor families... Conversely, most rich folks were born into rich families...

These cyles are very hard to break from either end of the socio-economic spectrum...

If a society cares to try to break down these cyles then it's going to take financing and programs similar to those of the New deal and the Great Society... All the good, all the prayers, all the good thoughts and good intentions can't break the cycle of poverty without "governemnt"... The churchs, as rich as they are, haven't scratched the surface...

And it's going to take more comminities passing "Living Wage" laws that increase the minimum wages in their states and localites to levels where there is hope for the working poor... BTW< a large amjority of poor folks, ahhhhh, do work.... But at $5.15 an hour, there is little or no chance ot breaking the cycle... Oh sure, there are exceptions, but those are just that.... exceptions...

So if we are serious about making a dent in the poverty levels it's gonna take "more governemnt" and much higher minimum wages...

Just for starters....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:39 PM

And I will say something just like that to him again when he puts words in my mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:36 PM

Now Peace, that is good, constructive stuff, exactly what I was refering to. (7:31)

Much better than "and you are still sick today" which you told Hubby earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:34 PM

Wow! There are some people posting to this thread who are pretty damned smug and self-satisfied. Little do they realize that all it would take is a board of directors somewhere deciding to make some cutbacks—or someone's (not necessarily one's own) inattention while crossing a street—or a slight misstep on a stairway—or a virus creeping stealthily into one's body—and all of that presumed security—all of that which allows them to be smug and self-satisfied—could vanish like a cloud of smoke on a windy day.

Then you'd really hear some whining.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:31 PM

"(See, that is the sort of crap you come up with and it does not contribute to anything with the possible exception of screwing something up)"

Then deal with the following instead, and then you can contribute in positive manner, also.

"WASHINGTON — The number of Americans living in poverty rose by 1.1 million to 37 million last year, despite a robust economy that created 2.2 million new jobs. It was the fourth consecutive year poverty has risen."

"The number of people without health insurance rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million. But the number with health insurance also increased by 2 million, to 245.3 million. Employer-based health coverage declined, while more people joined government programs such as Medicaid. As a result, the percentage of uninsured remained basically unchanged at 15.7%."

"• Poverty. Nearly one in four blacks and more than one in five Hispanics remained in poverty, defined as annual income of less than $19,307 for a family of four. The rate for Asians dropped by 2 percentage points, to fewer than one in 10. The poverty rate for children was 17.8%, up slightly from 17.6% in 2003."

USA Today regarding 2004

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:28 PM

Thank you for your excellent guidance--whoever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:26 PM

Peace, you are being an Ass.

(like you care about me saying that)

Just maybe Hubby was sick that day - you still are not well.

(See, that is the sort of crap you come up with and it does not contribute to anything with the possible exception of screwing something up)

Good Thread, Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:14 PM

"But since I just quoted the Bible, I guess that's another reason to just call me names and try to discredit what you can't honestly defend."

Well, back atcha: "The rich man's wealth is his strong city: the destruction of the poor is their poverty."

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 07:02 PM

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:57 PM

Hey, that's the answer: Declare homelessness to be illegal--and jail all homeless people. THEN, declare jails to be illegal and BOOM, the problem vanishes.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:56 PM

When I believe what's needed to help those that refuse to help themselves is a good swift kick in the ass.(Figuratively of course.)

So there's another good one who believes kicking them when they're down is good medicine.

*Tip* With your hand tightly pressed on your wallet in your back pocket, you can really get a good swing into that kick.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: bobad
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:55 PM

One solution, as proposed by the recently appointed Canadian finance minister when he was serving as the attorney general of Ontario, is to make homelessness illegal - put them in jail. I guess that's one way of helping the needy.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:51 PM

Bubby-

Check Rousseau & the rest of the enlightenment authors - assuming you can read. They're largely responsible for the ideas in the Constitution & Bill of Rights, & were favorites of those liberal commies Jefferson & Madison & all them founding fathers types....

Looks like you were sick or asleep for your entire time in school?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:45 PM

"I know that I've been painted as a heartless, soulless, uppity jackass."

Self portrait was it? Seeing the light at last?

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:42 PM

That's actually funny, Bruce.


I know that I've been painted as a heartless, soulless, uppity jackass. But at least I've been brave enough to come in here and argue my points. And as the points I have brought forward have tried to be systematically dissected and destroyed by consistently trying to change the subject and calling me names does not make my points any less valid. This is a true difference of opinion and it was just brilliantly stated by Janie.

She believes that we (as the government) have a responsibility to help those that refuse to help themselves. I guess that's what known to liberals and democrats as "positive reinforcement". When I believe what's needed to help those that refuse to help themselves is a good swift kick in the ass.(Figuratively of course.)

What you have never heard from me is that those in this situation because they have no control of what has happened to them need this same treatment. I don't believe that at all. Those are the ones that would benefit from us trying to help them by showing and encouraging them what to do instead of just trying to throw money at them in hopes that it will all just go away.

Personal responsibility is a concept that must be taught. The socialist idea that just throwing more money at it with no accountability will solve it is wishful thinking at best.

As the good book says: "Train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they shall not depart from it."

But since I just quoted the Bible, I guess that's another reason to just call me names and try to discredit what you can't honestly defend.

That's ok, I've got big shoulders.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:02 PM

"I guess I was sick the day they showed us that contract in school."

And you're still sick today.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 06:00 PM

"Even if everyone who were poor, were poor because they were lazy, no count bums, we as a society have an obligation to provide for the basic needs of all the individuals who make up that society. It is inherent in the social contract."



I guess I was sick the day they showed us that contract in school.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM

"WASHINGTON — The number of Americans living in poverty rose by 1.1 million to 37 million last year, despite a robust economy that created 2.2 million new jobs. It was the fourth consecutive year poverty has risen."

"The number of people without health insurance rose by 800,000 to 45.8 million. But the number with health insurance also increased by 2 million, to 245.3 million. Employer-based health coverage declined, while more people joined government programs such as Medicaid. As a result, the percentage of uninsured remained basically unchanged at 15.7%."

"• Poverty. Nearly one in four blacks and more than one in five Hispanics remained in poverty, defined as annual income of less than $19,307 for a family of four. The rate for Asians dropped by 2 percentage points, to fewer than one in 10. The poverty rate for children was 17.8%, up slightly from 17.6% in 2003."

USA Today regarding 2004

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:51 PM

We cross-posted, G.

    In my years in social work, I have certainly encountered several narcissistic, antisocial bums (and bumtresses) who just flat out felt "entitled" for others to care for them.   Working with these leeches is irritating and frustrating. No one likes to feel used or manipulated, (even us social worker types:>). But they be breathing, and there be enough food to go around. So I hand 'em a plate.
    For every actual leech I encounter, however, I encounter 3 others who look like leeches until I understand their story, and 6 more who no one would call a leech, but who fell through a gaping hole in the social safety net.

       I'll come back later. (oh boy, betcha can't wait, eh?)

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:27 PM

My last post did not need to be so snippy.

My apologies.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:26 PM

Okay - don't take it personally. What I am really interested in would be your comments on those that do not take advantage of programs and more importantly, your ideas for improvement.

Improvement is always the key word, don't you think.

I did read the thread, twice, and got the impression from you that we don't do nearly enough as a Government. I did not want to saddle you with my interpretations. Not fair as I said before.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:14 PM

Guest G,

    I think I have been pretty specific about my beliefs throughout this thread. I admit they are probably not facinating reading--but there is absolutely no need to guess about what they are and on what I base them. If you had skimmed the thread to a meaningful degree, you would already know them.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:06 PM

Simply review the money being expended as a result of the "Great Society" (LBJ)

I just reviewed a report from a midwest state involving the reduced school lunch program. Free for some. 72 percent of those eligible were using the school time lunch program. Only 24% were taking advantage of the morning breakfast program (mostly free) and less than 10% were utilizing the summer vacation lunch program, even where free transportation was being provided. I believe it is the individual.

What would you do differently? I am tired, worn out, out of ideas and I quit. I still give my share to the Salvation Army and United Way.

I do not intend to try and guess your beliefs on this situation. That would not be fair to you.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:06 PM

Yes, Martin. We know.

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 05:02 PM

Sounds like a cut to me. Did medical costs suddenly reverse direction and plummet while I wasn't looking? Do you not understand what loss of jobs (where I live, the textile industries and large segments of tech. related jobs) has done to the economy in many parts of the country? States have absorbed all of the cost shifting that they can. You also seem not to be aware that social safety net programs like Medicaid, Aid to Families with Dependent children, the Food Stamps program, have had their funding and their policies become steadily more restrictive since the block grant programs began in 1981. After 15 years of erosion, there ain't no beach left.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:58 PM

I think we have some folks here who don't actually know what Janie actually DOES.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:57 PM

I pretty much said the same thing as LarryK did.

forget the handouts.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:49 PM

G,

    What I see, is that we are tending to talk at, instead of with each other.

    I seem to be repeating myself alot here. There is no one or (even, one mostly) reason why some people are poor. And many people are poor for a combination of reasons. Even if everyone who were poor, were poor because they were lazy, no count bums, we as a society have an obligation to provide for the basic needs of all the individuals who make up that society. It is inherent in the social contract. Individuals give up something from their individuality in order to have the benefits of a societal structure, and to help insure survival. Society must also give up something in exchange for the participation of individuals.

    I find the arguments you and Larry have presented here to give weight almost exclusively to the individual. That makes your view very unidimensional. A very strong socialist viewpoint would tend to be unidimensional also.

    In our country, right now, a significant number of people are not getting BASIC NEEDS met because the pendulum has swung too far right. If corrective measures are not taken soon to shift that balance back, I really think we will end up seeing a class war in this country.

      It does not have to happen. But it sure can happen.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:16 PM

By the way, taking things at face value is one of our most grevious errors. If you do a little checking, you will find that the program is not being cut, simply a slight decrease in the planned increase over last years funding.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,G
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 04:10 PM

I have no idea what Larry F. was trying to imply in his 2:46 post. I certainly did not get that from Larry K.s post. And he is not being one dimensional - I think he pretty much nailed it. In my 35 years of work in this area, 98% of those suffering from poverty or near poverty were a product of a similar situation while growing up or suffer from a lack of education (the number one contributor). Some cannot be changed. My last case (on a pro-bono basis) was trying to get someone to simply work. He was to be picked up at his door every morning, driven to the job site and returned on a daily basis. He had NO income at that time, living with a lady on SS disability. His physical condition was excellent as we observed him doing backflips after several beers. His comment was "I can't read or write"(dyslexia, I think). He did not have to as the driver would fill out his time card for him. The job was in drainage and irrigation and his main task would be carry lightweight plastic pipe, one piece at a time. The hourly rate was 3 times minimum wage to start.

While this tale is antecdotal, it is all too common. His 'partner' was going to apply for Supplemental SS for him. The "Great Society" has done much to create the current situation. Larry K. is correct and I am sure, like me, he has nothing against a legup until the individual can stand on his/her own two legs.

Too many people engaged in working to help those in dire conditions oft wear their heart on their sleeve and simply extend the condition rather than getting some away from it. The answer is somewhere in reaching those young people, say under 6 years of age, and giving them a path to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:23 PM

Sorry, Son.

I guess you just had too much lead in those fingers:>)

J.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:16 PM

100 ??

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:16 PM

Yes!!!! Doesn't take much to make me happy, eh?

Larry, your view is awfully one dimensional.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 03:13 PM

Uhmmmmmmmmm....What I want to say...is...

100! (i hope)

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM

See now, there you have it.

Larry's actually ENVIOUS of poor folks who get any kind of assistance 'cause HE isn't getting anything! Like if he had to endure the existence of one of these less fortunates he'd probably kill himself in a week.

But he still envies 'em.

Pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:12 PM

In school our kids our taught that "there but for fortune" any of us could be poor and that all of us are one paycheck away from being poor.   BULLSHIT.

We all make decisions in life.   Being poor is usally the result of many bad decisions.   Didn't study, dropped out of school, drank, took drugs, hung out with bad people, did crimes, etc. etc.   It's not one bad decision that leaves you on the street.

I have had companies I work for sell the company (big companies like Stanley, Kodac, and Lysol) and dissolve my job.   Rather than give up I found a new job.   After reorganization I had to find a new job skill in my current job.   Today I am the recognized expert in my company.   

I think it is great that people take social jobs with little pay.   That is their choice. Don't bitch that you don't make any money.   You chose that field. No one is stopping you from becoming a doctor, lawyer, investment banker, or millionaire from your own business.

Art chose the music business.   I love Art's performances, but not enough other people do.   Some people make millions in music.   Most don't.   Very few in folk music make much of a living.   But that is a choice you make.   The upside is you choose your life, have no bosses, and play for people like yourself.   The downside is little money, no healtcare, small audiences, talented competition, and no poplular support.   You can make a whole lot more money as a DJ for weddings and bar mitzvahs.

It is not fair why some jobs pay a lot and others pay very little. Life isn't fair.   Get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 02:00 AM

"It is only difficult watching when deluded people convince themselves that their good fortune is all a result of their own prowess."

How right you are, Art.

Its called blind arrogance, lack of empathy and plain selfishness.

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 01:18 AM

Well, everything we had went to medical insurance and to pay for ten years of my surgeries and uncovered outpatient costs with thousands of dollars demanded in cashiers checks, up front, before we got the needed MRIs etc. etc. -- until insurance premiums were too much to afford and Medicaid was the only way to go. Now pre-existing conditions keep insurance unavailable. You are right, it's Catch 22 all over again---and then compounded by ten.

It is insane! But once you get used to it, insanity can be the most normal thing in the world. Don't get me wrong, folks. Life is a gas and a great panorama I never tire of watching. It is only difficult watching when deluded people convince themselves that their good fortune is all a result of their own prowess. In actuality, it is nothing more than dumb conniving luck ---no different than a big win in Casa Blanca as the chief of police proclaims he's shocked gambling is happening--as he pockets his winnings/bribes !!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:31 AM

Oops. 3rd paragraph, end of 3st line. s/b it--and not if.

J

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 06 Feb 06 - 12:28 AM

Believing that it "ultimately comes down to both the individual and society", means I see the importance of balance, but also means I understand the fulcrom point to be very dynamic; always in motion.   The other main dynamic is the to-and fro motion between the individual and the group.

    Once, while working with a very old chart for a public assistence case, I saw an offical stamp on an application. It was dated in the very late 30's. The application had obviously been approved. In big red letters it read "DEEMED WORTHY BY THE COUNTY COUNCIL."

    When it comes down to basic needs, there is not one person on earth whose view is so clear and without prejudice, that if comes with the right to judge whether some one is worthy to eat, worthy to have shelter from the storm, worthy to have necessary and important routine medical care.
   
So, if that person or family you or I think we know, really were lazy and doofluss and thatsallthereistoit,thankyouverymuch!, Our collective responsibility requires that we offer a helping hand anyway.

IMHO,

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Janie
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:54 PM

Susan,

    I think what you say is true, and also think (but don't know) that there is some research to back that up. My views are somewhat beyond that, though.

    First, planning for the future takes a backseat to getting from one day to the next. Poverty creates or increases chaos and crisis.

A family just making it who experiences a bad break--say, health problems--death of the wage earner-- is very easily tipped over the financial precipice. The difficulties snowball quickly--get behind on the rent to pay for medicine, then get behind on the electricity to pay the back rent, then can't pay the car insurance so the tags get revoked, just at the same time your doctor says you can go back to work from the broken leg and arm and now you have no way to get to work....which you must do to get the money to get the car legal so you drive anyway and get pulled, and now you have all the fines and court costs to pay before you can get your tags back, even if you do come up with the money to renew the insurance!

Scenerios like this are much more common than the average middle-class American knows.

TBC Janie

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

I think what Janie (and others) are saying is that the ways and means for poor people to try to get ahead are being closed down by policies and practices aimed at them by our gummint, in ways they couldnot have foreseen and thuis could not have marshaled themsevels to overcome ahead of time..... that the rug is being pulled out from under them each time they think they have gained a tiny bit of solid ground under their feet-- while the rest of us weren't looking and in a way that causes the rest of us to see it as the fault of the people falling victom to these policies and practices.

I think she's saying, "Hey, look over here-- there's something wrong happening to a whole lot of human beans. "Poverty" doesn't function in the same way it used to. It's being rigged."

I dunno for sure if Janie is saying ALL of that. But I am. I know how poverty USED to work-- with great effort, I worked my way out of it into the wonderful class of the "voluntary poor." ;~) But I don't think I could manage it as things are now.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: More Insult to the Poor
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 08:26 PM

Cluin, people as I have said earlier in this thread are poor for many reasons. Some of that is lack of motivation, not appling themselves, blaming others, not taking responsibility for their own actions, making poor choices, not taking advantage of resources, etc.

There is absolutely no sin for being poor that way. The sin is letting that happen to one's self.