BS: The Wealth of Churches

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 10:32 PM

Clop, clop, clop, bang; clop, clop, clop, bang . . . .

An Amish drive-by shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 06:34 PM

there are the Mahatma's, the Mother Theresa's....then there are those who think like The Bishop.

Churches...and churchmen...have widely varying ideas about how ummmm...'comfortable' they should be. TV evangelists seems to revel in sumptuous sets and expensive clothes. The Amish and the Catholics vary a lot in how they consider God wants to honored.....but Amish architecture doesn't make very good coffee table books.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:55 PM

Mark - There are so many ways I could respond to your question to Keith.

One I can think of is - Yes - If you do it right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: MarkS
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 03:01 PM

Keith
If it is used in the fertility festivals celebrating the sacred female, can I come?

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 02:34 PM

My church owns a chalice known to be centuries old.
The stained glass window over th alter shows it in the hand of St.John, by a crucifiction scene where mary magdalene is at the centre with Christ.
Since Hertford was a centre for Knights Templar who were said to be guardians of the Holy Grail, just possibly....

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Feb 06 - 01:50 PM

The Octavia Hill Estate in London SE1 which provides affordable housing for many people working in the public services (ambulance drivers etc) is to be sold off by the owners (The Church of England) to private landlords (i.e. the highest bidders?) despite pleas that it be sold to a Housing Association. Apparently the rents are not making "enough" profit!

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:17 PM

Yes, we must cleave to the True Path at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 11:12 PM

Or the Temple, which is a virtual Second Front of Opposition to war and in favor of balance.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 10:23 PM

That's why everyone should support the Church of Winona (Ryder). We do not invest in the war industry.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Feb 06 - 08:59 PM

"Well, The Church of England is in a more extreme situation than most. It has a huge number of buildings to look after, a large proportion of them listed- ( given protected status due to their historical and archetectural importance), and often dating back to the 11th century or before. It also has many pensions to pay.

The congregations to support this are not large.

There are wealthy churches, but this is not one."

Is this the same church that owns, and collects the revenue from, huge quantities of land all over the British Isles, Bun?

It certainly isn't too forthcoming when it comes to repairing those old buildings.

About four years ago, the spire of St. Philip's church in Maidstone, Kent, was threatening to take over the crypt, and the C of E refused to pay towards the repairs necessary. The parishioners raised £100,000 in eighteen months (£3,000 of which was raised by Mudcatter Wildrover and myself, with a series of folk concerts), and the work was done.

This preserved the church, and an attached community centre used by over 600 local residents every week.

Those who raised the money did not receive so much as a thankyou from the C of E, which, as far as I can see, would have been happier to pull it down and sell the land for development.

If that is an example of their normal response, they can't be too badly off.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:24 PM

As I said about the Vatican investing in birth control pills....

But as I've said elsewhere, you should distinguish between a religion and the churches of that religion. Some very poor Catholic parishes do some very good work with very poor people of any religion -- and I can name some of them.

Others, which could afford to do much good, seem to hoard their wealth. And I could name some of them, too.

But I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 11:18 PM

Noted without comment or back-up ...taken from this site.


Administration Pay:

American Red Cross, Marsha Evans... $651,957.

United Way, Ralph Dickerson Jr... $420,000.

Goodwill Industries, George W. Kessinger... $386,575

Salvation Army, W. Todd Bassett... $166,850

Catholic Charities USA, Thomas A. DeStefano... $116,362



Somebody had sent these figures to me in an e-mail about a month and a half ago, minus the third one and the last one.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:33 PM

I wonder how many churches invest in multi-nationals that support child labour, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:29 PM

You should all be asking your churches how they invest their money. I did this when I was sixteen years old. I found out that the Presbyterian church had invested heavily in the war industry. That did it for me. I was outa there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 10:21 PM

"Besides, I think he goes more for the buxom blondes and redheads on the whole."

You seem to have misspelled the last word, no offense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:56 PM

They could be, Rap. No doubt of that. But Bill has his hands full already, in consideration that he is the elder icon of showbiz sex appeal, and a natural leader of men. Besides, I think he goes more for the buxom blondes and redheads on the whole.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:55 PM

The Temple of the Golden Globes acknowledges all your efforts. We are content with our niche - we understand that there are different appetites in the human soul and these will lead people on their own special paths, however wavy. As we say in the Temple, "In My Mother's Figure are Many Curves".   So we are content to limit ourselves to our own appropriate metaphysical target market -- namely, those human beings who have been weaned.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:48 PM

Shatner and Winona are, ah, very close, if you get my drift.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:27 PM

Very cool. Guys, you have no idea how close I am to Winona. This close. Closer than I am to Shatner, not that I'm boasting...

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:26 PM

This is getting very confusing. Will the ONE TRUE CHURCH PLEASE STAND UP!

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 09:16 PM

All hail the one true church the Church of Bob

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:24 PM

OK then. I am now Wesley's donations manager. Sorry, Little Hawk. You are screwed. BUT, ya get to keep the life-sized blow-up doll of Winona.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:22 PM

I was planning on collecting the funds - not send them ! I'm already in the inner circle.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:16 PM

Lifetime membership fo $10,000. After that, just leave the rest in your will and as Little Hawk's new donations manager, I will

1) guarantee you a seat at the table in the next life
2) a nice bouguet of petunias (in an assortment of colours) for your funeral

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:15 PM

You're in!!! Hail Winona! I can see you are going to go far in this faith, Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:13 PM

How about an "inner circle lifetime membership" for $5,000 ??

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:08 PM

My church has zilch in its coffers! Zippo! Nada!

My church needs your help urgently. My church is a little shrine in my room with a picture of Winona Ryder on it, and we are in bad shape at this point, partly because of that shoplifting scandal and partly because I'm the only local member.

We are accepting both converts and contributions from any and all sources. Winona must be restored to her former glory!

Call 1-800-2WIN-ONA....don't hesitate. Call now and pledge your contribution! We suggest $500. Lifetime membership for $1,000.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM

As long as donations are tax deductible, then people who do NOT support whatever the hell 'you' happen to be giving to are really supporting it because the over-all rate of tax has to be highter to cover the tax deduction for the donation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 08:02 PM

Joe:

A good point. The reason I said 8% is because the other part of my fantasy is a constitutional protection for all citizens against paying more than ten per cent to all tax collecting agencies at any level.

This would save your donors so much money they would be able to increase their donations to you more than ten percent, assuming they were motivated to do so by the good you do.

I wish I had a complete set of numbers to model such a scheme against -- my sense is that it would markedly increase gross Federal revenues, reduce Federal costs of collection as well, and level the tax burden across the income spectrum in a more equitable way.

Not to mention the fat the auditors would be able to find in the Federal budget!


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:57 PM

My church, the Catoctin Presbyterian Church has an annual budget of less than $200,000... That pays fir evrything the chucrch does... It about breaks even which is better than a few years ago when it didn't even do that and had very little reserves to keep it afloat...

Great church... Lousy business venture though...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: leftydee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 07:10 PM

I think churches and church folk have the right to spend their money as they please. I also agree that they should pay taxes just as any other entity. I could also support a punitive tax (90% wouldn't hurt my feelings) for any church that allows missionaries. Missionaries are conquerors in disguise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:54 PM

The church I attend here (every now and then, actually) supports the St. Vincent de Paul store and food bank, Aid for Friends (homeless shelter), a counseling service for marrieds, singles, and actually anyone with a problem, a k-8 school, two mission churches (one on an Indian reservation), and various other social agencies (including visiting the women's prison here in town). There are three churches -- two on the National Register and the other one of those unworkable "modern" designs. The three parishes have been combined into one and it's trying to find the wherewithal to consolidate into one church.

There is one priest fulltime and one halftime priest for 1,300 families in town and about 10,000 other people scattered around about 600 square miles. There are also two lay deacons, but most of the work is done by the laity.

The local University's student ministry has had Mass once in the last six months -- no priests. They usually have a communion service with the nun in charge presiding.

Even so, locals sent better than US $9,000 to hurricane relief.

I don't think that it's a particularily wealthy parish...not like the ones I knew in Northern Kentucky.

Then again, people here talk to you; those in No. KY seemed to resent the presence of anyone whose family hadn't been a parishioner since before the Civil War.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 06:07 PM

Our small church is one of the major supporters of the community food room and tries to be conscious of the needs of the whole community.   It is no great hoarder of wealth.   I wish the government did as well with the money I give to it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 05:59 PM

Well, The Church of England is in a more extreme situation than most. It has a huge number of buildings to look after, a large proportion of them listed- ( given protected status due to their historical and archetectural importance), and often dating back to the 11th century or before. It also has many pensions to pay.

The congregations to support this are not large.

There are wealthy churches, but this is not one.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:52 PM

I know. As I said, finding the figures and getting to the actual bottom lines are very difficult tasks and I don't have the time to do more than I have done.

I have heard that the Vatican at one time held a majority share of the stock in the pharmaceutical company that made the bulk of the birth control pills used in Italy. If true, that seems hypocritical to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:50 PM

Our Parish priest has taken a vow of poverty. He not only talks the talk, he also walks the walk. My question is not directed at individual churches. Many perform great work with very little. However, read what Rapaire posted. Folks, that's lots of money in a world where children starve to death daily.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:45 PM

The one part of the "stats" given that I am most uncomfortable with is the amounts held in investments. I know of at least one instance in which a pastor found that a church he was assigned to held quite a few thousand dollars worth of G.M. stock, and got it disposed of and the funds put to appropriate use. (Which says little or nothing about the picture on a national or worldwide scale). If one of the big national church bodies takes in 16 trillion a year, pays it's pastors and other full time employees a decent living wage, and uses the remainder in genuinely "Christian" ways, I have no complaint. I'm sure there is far too much abuse going on, by institutions which should be the last to be excused for it. But listing total revenue figures doesn't say much one way or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:20 PM

OK, Amos - I work at a women's center in Sacramento that's run by Catholic nuns. We serve breakfast to poor women from 7:30-11:30 every morning. The nuns and our social worker and other staff receive a modest salary, and they all pay income taxes on 100% of their income. We are supported by donations that aren't taxes as income to us - and yes, the donors get a tax deduction for their donations, which means their money goes for social welfare instead of paying for the Iraq War.

So, should the donors get taxed on their donation, and should the women's center be taxed on the donations as income?

What do you propose?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

Peace, all these things, to result in actual understanding, require relationship. Ask friends at local churches where the money at their church goes.

Most churches are governed, on the business side of things, by local members. The clergy preside at governing board meetings in many cases, but they are bound by the group's decisions. And the assets were given, usually by members, who wanted the assets to be used to serve people. And as non-profits, they have to generate annual reports which are to be made available upon request.

Another statistic you might want to hunt up is, how much "service" is done by religious institutions the costs of which would be borne by gummint units (taxes) if they stopped doing them.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: MMario
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

*NEITHER* of the two major parties would allow a flat tax to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:33 PM

I've thought the same thing for years, Amos -- only I'd set the tax at 10%, with a floor equal to the national poverty level: i.e., if the national povery level is $10,000 and you made $100,000, you pay 10% of $90,000, or $9,000.

No matter who or what you are. And this tax is per person -- if you made $10,000 and your wife made $100,000, you would pay nothing and she'd pay $9,000.

But it's too simple to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:29 PM

How rich is the TV evangelist you send monet to?

Any TV evangelist who looks for money from ME is going to go pretty durn hungry!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Amos
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 03:19 PM

If Bush had a brain, which arguably he missed out on, he could balance the budget by requiring a low, uniform flat income tax such as 8%, exempting no-one above a minimum income and eliminating all privelege and loopholery therefrom. Such an action would bring in millions from the many well-to-do foundations and religious organizations, and if the flat rate were low enough, it would be accomodated soon enough. The simplification of the code would free up tens of thousands of experienced IRS account auditors who could go to work trimming fat, waste, deceit, embezzlement and special privelege from the Federal Governments operations. That would also serve the cause of liberty by getting the off the backs of many citizens.

This brilliant plan will never be aired on Capitol Hill, however because it would gore a good many oxes, including those who can afford the footwork to pay less than such a minimum tax.

It could be argued that exempting religious groups from income tax actually VIOLATES the separation of church and state, extending exemption to revenue-producing groups which benefit from Federal services as surely as any small business does.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:52 PM

Thank you.

I too see many poor individual churches--I just wondered where the cash was going.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:51 PM

Can't speak for the world-wide RC's or anything. Most of the local churches in our neck of the woods are setting up special funds to pay their natural gas heating bills (ours is); the pastor, who had a B.A. and Master's Degree makes less than most anyone given 8 years of college and Graduate study. He drives an Olds Alero. His wife has to work full time. The congregation has no icons, precious art, etc. as an asset. It DOES have a huge vaulted ceiling that sucks heat like a baby at a teet.

The Presby church across the street has a "for sale" sign on its front lawn for its building...they "hope" to get over 100k for the lot/building---which is an older, stone ediface, but not humongous. Both churches offered emergency food, clothing, and money (at times) to the street folks of the town, or families in need to pay their phone or heating bill.

As a denomination, income is waaaaay down, and ministers and lay people have to pay hundreds of dollars to attend their "required yearly assemblies." All sorts of outreach and educational programs have been cut. So, pardon me while I wretch when I hear of all the "wealth" of churches. Maybe the Vatican with its heirlooms, art, etc.-but not the local congregation on the corner.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: MMario
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:45 PM

the church earned at least $5.28 billion from its 1700 schools??

It may have grossed that but I bet it had a net negative figure on those schools.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:42 PM

And all Yassar Arafat ripped from the Palestinians was a paltry $300,000,000. Piker.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Kaleea
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:39 PM

In a perfect world, the workers of the church live with only what they need and see to it that the wealth is distributed where the needs are. Too bad it doesn't really happen that way much.
   When The Mahatma died, his posessions could fit into a little box.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

Any organization that's around long enough will accumulate wealth in some form, whether it's General Motors or the Catholic Church.

Here's info on the LDS Church. I apologize for the length.

    Today, people estimate that the LDS Church collects about $4.3 billion a year through tithing, plus $400 million from its ecclesiastical enterprises. In tithing receipts alone that comes to almost $12 million per day.

    Another $4 billion annually is generated by the Church's business subsidiaries. This brings the yearly total up to $8.7 billion. That would make 54th or 55th place on the Fortune 500 list, above Honeywell, General Mills, and Campbell Soup.

    Shearson-Lehman-Hutton is the broker for the LDS church. They handle almost all of the church's investments apart from charity, administration, and construction -- close to $200 million every year.

    The Mormon Church disputes these figures, but only generally. They will not correct specific errors; instead, they insist that these estimates are "grossly overstated." Church officials refuse to make public even their personal income tax returns. John Heinerman, co-author of the 1985 book The Mormon Corporate Empire, said this:

               The Mormon corporate empire, in terms of dollars
          and cents, is rather impressive for several reasons.
          Number one, in the book, we take a conservative figure
          of about $8.5 billion that the empire is worth, and we
          of course have footnotes in the back of the book
          showing how we arrived at those figures. But really,
          with all the research that we have done, the figure is
          closer to $11.5 to $12 billion, worldwide, including
          all their investments and holdings.

    The real estate division of the church conducts brisk dealings in land. Zion's Security Corporation, the church's commercial real estate arm, controls numerous office buildings in Salt Lake City, including regional headquarters for Kennecott Copper Company, J.C. Penney, Prudential Federal Savings and Loan, and many church facilities. It also owns the sprawling ZCMI (Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution) Mall in downtown Salt Lake as well as a controlling interest in the ZCMI store chain.

    Since 1977 a sister corporation, Beneficial Development Corporation, has taken over development work for the church, and has established several industrial parks in association with private developers in Florida, Arizona, Los Angeles, Hawaii, and Utah.

    The known agricultural lands consist of at least 928,000 acres including the 300,000 Deseret Ranch near the Disney complex in central Florida and 95,000 acres near Cardston, Alberta, Canada. All together the holdings are larger than the famous King Ranch empire of Texas, which holds 825,000 acres.

    Other sources of Mormon wealth are the insurance companies, retail stores, office buildings, and other business properties in Utah and elsewhere. The Beneficial Life Insurance company, founded to provide life insurance to church members, has expanded into a major subsidiary with holdings in the Deseret Mutual Benefit Association, Continental Western Life Insurance Company, the Pacific Heritage Assurance Life Insurance Company, and the Western American Life Insurance Company, which, according to Utah state government records, have a combined value of $94 million.

Here's an estimate of the Catholic Church in AUSTRALIA alone.

The Roman Catholic Church is the wealthiest non-profit organization in Australia. If it was a corporation, it would be one of the 10 biggest in the country. Through its network of schools, hospitals, aged-care facilities, employment services and other business ventures, it makes at least $15 billion in revenue a year. That figure does not include the hundreds of millions of dollars donated by its congregation on the collection plates of its 1500 parishes a year. Nor does it adequately measure the revenue that it makes from its welfare "businesses".

The five biggest religious groups turned over $21.6 billion in 2004, with the Roman Catholic Church making more revenue than the other four put together. Through its vast empire of health and education the Church earned

at least $5.28 billion from its 1700 schools

at least $5 billion from health, which includes 65 hospitals and more than 485 aged-care homes and hostels

at least $3.2 billion from sinruance and property rentals

The church also has more than $4 billion in superannuation funds under management that [could] be locate[d].

The church operates and insurance company, a multi-storey car park in Melbourne's CBD and a vineyard.

The church is the biggest employer in Australia - employing 180,000 people.

For the Southern Baptist Convention, for FY 2000.

The Baptist Center for Ethics, a moderate Baptist agency based in Nashville, Tenn., pointed out in a recent e-mail newsletter that the SBC is sitting on more than $1 billion in assets.

In its newsletter "BCE Bytes," the ethics agency reported assets in investments, cash, property and equipment at the SBC's two mission boards and six seminaries totaling more than $1,016,000,000.

Using what agency head Robert Parham called a "conservative" calculation of figures printed in the SBC's 2000 Book of Reports, BCE reported the following:

* The International Mission Board, which supports 4,800 missionaries and has an annual budget of $250 million, held investments of more than $387 million at the end of 1999. Property and equipment assets totaled just over $17 million.

* The North American Mission Board, with a $126 million budget, held $87.3 million in investments and $23.8 million in property and equipment. The agency reported cash and interest deposits of $6.5 million, third-party investments of $30.7 million and mission properties of $5.8 million.

* Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary was the richest of the six SBC seminaries, with $193 million in cash, investments, property and equipment.

* BCE's $1 billion-plus calculation did not include accounts receivable, student-loans receivable, inventories and pledges receivable. The count also excluded $127 million in church loans reported as a NAMB asset and $27 million in non-current assets at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.

This will give some idea of the wealth held by churches. It is NOT by any means an easy question to answer. I again apologize for the length of the C&Ps, but the original articles were even longer and I did NOT want to take any more than I had to from context.

Subject: RE: BS: The Wealth of Churches
From: Peace
Date: 08 Feb 06 - 02:38 PM

That poses another problem. Why is the wealth of churches not evenly distributed?