 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Cheney To Resign Soon
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:18 AM Several Mudcatters have already suggested that Cheney should resign. Fascinating column in the Wall St Journal 16 Feb 2006--by Peggy Noonan--on that idea. I don't have overmuch respect for Peggy Noonan, with her credentials as #1 Reagan hagiographer. But what she says here makes sense to me. Curious to know what you think. The logic goes: Bush realizes that his entire "legacy", if he has one, is bound up with Iraq. Cheney has said he will not run in 2008. Cheney is already a lightning rod for the Left--"hate" is not too strong a term. His negatives are sky-high. Now he adds imcompetence to them--through the "hunting" debacle. A sitting vice president has a lot of clout with Republicans if he chooses to run for president. It's unclear if all of the potential Republican candidates for president in 2008 would pursue Bush's Iraq course. Bush would like to assure that the one picked does in fact do this. If Cheney now, or very soon resigns, a VP who supports Bush's Iraq policy could possibly be found--without Cheney's other negatives. If that person is VP for over 2 years, he has possibly the inside track for the nomination--possibly avoiding a lot of internecine warfare before the nomination-- which is embittering and very expensive, in all sorts of ways---look what happened to the Democrats in 2004 when Kerry and Dean fought it out. Problems--of course there are. Top problem, I'd say, is that there may well not be much of Bush's Iraq "policy" to salvage--sooner rather than later. Not even the Kurds and Shiites are getting along--the Kurds are insisting that the Article 136 of the constitution the one dealing with oil-rich Kirkuk be carried out. This means a census there, followed by a referendum on whether it should be part of Kurdistan. "The Kurdish Coalition has no demands except those which are known by everyone regarding the need to implement Article 136 of the constitution...concerning Kirkuk"--a statement released by Talabani's office said. The Shiites don't like this. And the Sunnis, of course, are insisting on vast changes to the constitution. Prospect of change to the constitution was what enticed them into voting in large numbers in December, as I noted then. If they don't get their amendments, they may well start supporting the insurgency in greater numbers. The second large problem is--who would this strong figure be in the Republican party-who would unite the others behind his (or her?) candidacy, without mightily annoying those who didn't get the nod? Noonan doesn't deal with specific names. But removing Cheney from the scene, soon, would make this scenario at least remotely possible. Thoughts? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:21 AM " Imcompetence", of course, is a special brand of complete ineptitude unique to Cheney. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Amos Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:33 AM I would love to see an Agnewesque dive into the dirt for Fat Boy. But given the Admins rep for obsessive stonewalling in the best Nixon tradition, I am sorry to say I think it unlikely. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,Whistle Stop Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:39 AM I haven't seen Peggy Noonan's column, but the prospect of Cheney resigning in mid-term to give a future Presidential prospect a boost (through VP incumbency) is not a new idea. It's been talked about quite a bit, with the most likely scenario being a health-related cover story for Cheney's resignation ("the VP's cardiologist advised etc."). It certainly predates the hunting incident, which I predict will shortly become a non-issue in political terms -- yeah, he goofed, but it's a stretch to see a tie-in with competence issues on the job. In fact, Cheney's competence is not much in question; his agenda and ideology are certainly questionable, but his ability to push his agenda is pretty well established at this point (and he's not responsible for military planning; Rumsfeld is). As to who would be the most likely VP prospect in this scenario -- my money's on Condoleeza Rice. In fact, while I wouldn't call it likely, it's not out of the question that we could have two women as the major party Presidential candidates in 2008: Condi vs. Hillary. It would certainly make for an interesting race (although it would probably result in another Republican win, since I think Hillary is so disliked by so many people that I would consider her unlikely to win in the general election). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:49 AM Leave him in! Resignation wouldn't necessarilly eliminate his influence, just push it further into the background while giving Bush an opportunity to groom a |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Once Famous Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:55 AM I was one who suggested he resign early on and I could give a damn who was surprised. This guy has got to go and go soon. His image is now right their with Ted Kennedy for credibility. Shooting someone will be a major part of Cheney's legacy like Kennedy's is for drinking and driving with the result of a dead woman. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Bobert Date: 17 Feb 06 - 08:29 AM If things are going in Iraq come the '08 election cycle the way they are going now it would be suicidal for someone to try to be elected running on supporting the current Iraq policy... Think back to the summer of '68 and Hubert Humphrey and Richard Nixon... Same scenerio... Yeah, it can be pointed out the Humphrey called for ending the bombing but Johnson trumped his own VP by ending it a month before the election... Meanwhile, Nison, rode into the White House with the infamous "Secret Plan" for winding down the Viet Nam War... Problem is that after Nixon got elected we found that the plan must have been so secret that Nixon himself didn't even know it??? Yeah, another 5 years of war and another 22,000 American deaths- some plan... So, whoever runs in '08 had better have a better foriegn policy than the current guys and it better not contain war, war and more wars... The American people just aren't going to support this failed foriegn policy forever... Even if they wanted to, it's not affordable and at some point in time China is going to grow tired of bankrolling our war machine... Bottom line: Cheney stays!!! Guarenteed!!! Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Alba Date: 17 Feb 06 - 08:45 AM My Bottom line Bobert. Who seriously gives a ...... anymore. Snarl and Wolflesswits will still be there directing the Film. Just cause a co star drops out doesn't mean the production stops. Standing in the wings is one who has had Pullour Cheney's lines down for a loooong time and wants the part of VP so bad she has trouble containing her anger at not being offered the roll in the first place..yip Condesening Lice... Given the Budget this Movie has and why the Directors chose to use B grade Movie Actors for the Leading rolls I am left to think that this one will be a flop at the Box Office myself. That's just my opinion of course:) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Feb 06 - 09:27 AM it's odd what excites the public indignation not being able to spell potato, a holiday on a yacht called monkey business, misuse of a cigar, a shooting accident....... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,TIA Date: 17 Feb 06 - 10:05 AM A blowjob... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: DougR Date: 17 Feb 06 - 03:38 PM You wish. It ain't gonna happen. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,TIA Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:18 PM And "...we will not really invade Iraq..." |
|
Subject: Peggy Noonan From: GUEST,folk gossip monger Date: 17 Feb 06 - 04:35 PM Little known fact about Peggy Noonan: Her boyfriend in college was Roger Deitz, a New Jersey folkie and columnist in Sing Out magazine. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Feb 06 - 05:50 PM Condoleeza Rice vs. Hillary Clinton for president in 2008????????? Ye Gods. Naw...it'll never happen. I don't believe either one of those parties will ever run a female candidate for president. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 06 - 06:32 PM You wish. It ain't gonna happen. My impression is that Cheney resigning is the last thing that people opposed to Bush would wish to see happen, Doug. And the things that his supporters should be hoping will happen. Given the ruthless nature of high politics in all countries, I would be astonished if they don't dump him. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:29 PM It seems unlikely. Bush would be lost without Cheney and won't let him go without a fight and Cheney gives me no indication that he intends to step down. I agree he won't run. Even if Cheney wanted to run, his health would be too much of an issue. I would guess the GOP IS worried about 08 in that regard but, as I've been saying, if this war isn't history by 08, it won't matter who the GOP candidate is or what he says. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: JohnInKansas Date: 17 Feb 06 - 07:39 PM Should Cheney decide to step down, Senator Brownback say's he's ready. He may be a bit too "born again" even for Bush, though. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,Frug Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:09 AM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,Frug Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:10 AM Whoops !!.............maybe he should resign before he gets fired !!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:09 AM I was inaccurate, of course, when I mentioned Cheney's "incompetence". If I'd been awake I would have linked "imcompetence" with "impotence" and riffed on that. My statement on "incompetence" was a cover for my own bad typing. I'm aware that Cheney is in fact much more a Svengali or the power behind the throne than an incompetent. But his political liabilities are in fact now huge. What Don Firth brought up in the other thread is yet another example--exactly what was he doing on the ranch of a woman who is one of the biggest lobbyists in Texas? Bobert--I don't think 1968 is actually a good parallel. I think it's likely that if Johnson had run rather than bow out, he would have won--despite the Vietnam War. Remember McCarthy did not in fact win in New Hampshire. It's not at all clear there was a majority against the war at that point. And, as you know, Nixon had negatives--and Johnson had postives. But obviously we'll never know. Back to Cheney: by resigning, Cheney gets to be a profile in courage for the Republicans--resigning for the good of the party. He'll also be able to do full-time fund-raising and whipping up the faithful--without wasting his precious time "presiding" over the Senate. His main useful role there now is in breaking ties. Whistle Stop--interesting you suggest Condoleeza. She's been put forward as a presidential candidate in the Wall St Journal before. Do you think then that the US has overcome racism now to the extent that a majority of the electorate, including LOTS of conservatives, would vote for her? I certainly agree that Hillary has already alienated a huge swath of voters My own take is that in fact the US has overcome racism to that degree--but therefore Condi would in fact lose. Many many liberals would vote against her--for the very reason that Bush would want her as VP. Many liberals--in fact most thinking beings, black, white and any other color, I would think--would never want anybody in 2008 who showed the slightest inclination to continue Bush policies--in virtually any sphere. Especially in foreign policy, but also in domestic policy he has been a total disaster--in everything from fairness to the poor to the environment. To get the Republican nomination, Rice would have to say enough to convince Republicans that she would continue Bush policies--and that would doom her with the general electorate. Especially since there are enough racists backing Bush who would never vote for a black woman. Doug R--note where this idea (of Cheney stepping down) came from--that flaming liberal (and Reagan worshipper) Peggy Noonan. (I don't think Sing Out attitudes have rubbed off on her). Added to which, with your usual care in reading, you have missed the obvious point that, as McGrath and others note, much, perhaps most of Bush's opposition, does NOT want Cheney to resign. He's the perfect devil-figure, both for fund-raising and to run against as far as policies and record. I am not advocating that he resign or that he not resign--I'm just reporting speculation in the Journal. If pushed, I'd say liberals are better off with him staying--as I said, the target for verbal barbs and engine of liberal fund-raising--forever--or til the end of Bush's term, whichever comes first. With Cheney still in, liberals get the best of both worlds--a very convincing bogeyman, hence fund-raiser--and now one they can ridicule to their hearts' content. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: kendall Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:21 AM I, for one, hope he stays. He will be one more nail in the republican's coffin. This is the most secret, incompetent, deceitful administration in history. Out I say! Doug, my friend, what has Bush and his gang really done for America? We all know what he has done TO America: Got us bogged down in an illegal war with no end in sight, Took a 2 billion dollar surplus and turned it into an 8 TRILLION dollar deficit. That alone should be enough to turn conservatives against him. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Auggie Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:24 AM I for one would not be too surprised to see Cheney step aside, citing perhaps "health reasons", but obviously accomplished mainly to give political advantage to a 2008 presidential hopefull, which he of course is not. It would be a masterful political stroke for the GOP. However, before anyone waxes too enthusiastically over the possibility of resignation, I would remind y'all that (IMO) Mr. C, undeniably the most influential sitting VP in at least the last 100 years, will continue to call the shots in this administration either way, with or without a title, just as he has done all along. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST Date: 18 Feb 06 - 01:22 PM The Repubs will increase their strength this November. ...........and retain the White House in '08. You heard it here - print this and put on your Frige door. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Alba Date: 18 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM I don't have a frige. Where can I get one and what is it? :) Only kidding. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Feb 06 - 01:39 PM Alba-- A frige is where you put your bumper stickers when you drive out to go "hunting" quail and other predators. As Jon Stewart noted, it's vital that the quail know America is strong. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 18 Feb 06 - 01:57 PM You see, it's the red state name for back window--they don't want anybody to miss them, and it's not important to be able to see through the back window--since by definition they own the road--each one, individually. No wonder the accident rate is high. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Alba Date: 18 Feb 06 - 01:58 PM Phew Thanks Ron. I guess I can stop hunting the internet for one now. I am inclined to agree with John on that very point. Now I can go searching for other things to buy on the worldwide web, like say, my Civil Liberties:) Jude |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: DougR Date: 18 Feb 06 - 06:52 PM Ron Davies: no, I am not totally stupid. I realize that anti-Bush folks want the VP to remain because they believe that the Bush administration is a disaster and that Cheney has contributed to it. Many believe that he is actually "President." They obviously would not like to see the VP fired or see him resign. I don't believe that Bush will dump him and I don't think he will resign. Kevin: what has Bush done for the country you ask? Our economy is in great shape. The stock market is strong and breaking all previous records. Unemployment is lower than it has been in years. Prescription drugs are included as a part of Social Security for the first time in history. The plan may not be perfect, but then one must be aware that there are still Democrats in the Senate and the House and they don't want to see a perfect program that would benefit the Republicans. Bush has proposed changes to the Social Security Program that would preserve it for the young people coming up who, if changes are not made, will not be able to participate in the program because it will be broke. The administration with a lot of help from it's allies have introduced the idea of democracy to the Iraqi people. Most Mudcatters will scoff at that last sentence, but they can't deny that the two elections held in Iraq were a great success and a self-governing government will soon be in place. The action in Iraq has given pause to other countries in the region and other like democracies may be in the offing. None of them will be carbon copies of the democracy we know in the U. S., but it will be better than the government they had under folks like Saddam. The U. S. mainland has not been attacked by terrorists since September 11, 2001. The Bush Administration deserves credit for that though few on this forum will be willing to do so. For the first time, an American president has begun a concentrated effort to wean the country from fossil fuels. Bush is encouraging the continued development of alternative fuels including nuculear energy so that some day we will not be dependent on unfriendly countries to supply us with their oil. These are a few things Kevin. As to Condi Rice and Hillery Clinton running for president, I would dearly love to see that happen. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:32 PM I think Cheney might resign for 'reasons of ill health', but as was suggetsed up-thread, he would only do so after the hoped-for next President of the US is selected by those who do such things. Makes the transition to the Presidency so much easier. "Our economy is in great shape." Not according to this. I don't doubt that many people are doing very well and maybe that can mask other difficulties. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Auggie Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM DougR Where in George Bush's "mandate" did we authorize him to spend a small fortune in human life and borrowed money to introduce the idea of democracy to the Iraqi people? I thought it his responsibility to protect and serve us, the "American People", not the whole danged planet. Regardless of how beneficial this war has been to the Iraqis, it has not served those of us here in the US who fought and financed it. A generation ago my father, who had been an officer in the US Army infantry, was discerning enough to realize that, however noble, the conflict in Southeast Asia was not worth the life of his son. A generation later, I am discerning enough to realize the introduction of democracy to Iraq, however noble, is not worth the life of my son. Remember when we were young and decried the idea of old men sending young men out to die without a compelling reason? Did the rules change, the paradigm shift, now that we are the old men? Certainly only a fool would fail to honor those who served in these conflicts and those who gave family members in these causes, and only a fool would fail to view such individauls with a measure of higher regard well above that due all others. To those of you who fall into either catagory, I mean no disrespect. But, as to an administration who has cavalierly risked the lives of our military for ill-defined goals supported by illogical reasoning, well, I find my level of respect falling accordingly. I don't know anymore what exactly these Bush/Cheney people in my government are, but I know they are not conservatives. Condi vs. Hillary ? God help us all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: kendall Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:27 PM Doug, go to the UK and see what this gang of incompetents have done to the buying power of the dollar. With an 8 trillion dollar debt the economy is NOT healthy! The rest of your so called accomplishments are nothing but smoke and mirrors. The man is a dismal failure. If China calls in its loans to us we will collapse like a house of cards. If I were a conservative (as I once was) I would hang my head in shame! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:58 PM Breif Excerpt from Bob Herbert: Mr Vice President, It's Time to Go NYT Op-Ed "It's time for Dick Cheney to step down - for the sake of the country and for the sake of the Bush administration. Mr. Cheney's bumbling conduct at the upscale Armstrong Ranch in South Texas seemed hilarious at first. But when we learned that Harry Whittington had suffered a mild heart attack after being shot by the vice president in a hunting accident, it became clear that a more sober assessment of the fiasco at the ranch and, inevitably, Mr. Cheney's controversial and even bizarre behavior as vice president was in order. There's a reason Dick Cheney is obsessive about shunning the spotlight. His record is not the kind you want to hold up for intense scrutiny. More than anyone else, he was fanatical about massaging and distorting the intelligence that plunged us into the flaming quagmire of Iraq. He insisted that Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons and was hot on the trail of nukes. He pounded away at the false suggestion that Iraq was somehow linked to Al Qaeda. And he spread the word that the war he wanted so badly would be a cakewalk. ..." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: DougR Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:32 AM Amos: you continue to post arguments supporting your POV by writers who support your point of view! What's the point in that? Kevin: It's a bit late here in Arizona and I'll adress your remarks tomorrow if I find the time. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Hrothgar Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:06 AM Wasn't the bloke he shot a lawyer? Maybe he's not all bad. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:52 AM But he was a friend of Cheney. However, as Jon Stewart says, it was important that the quail know America is strong--which Cheney could only establish by shooting his friend in the face. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:55 AM Don't worry, Doug. As should be evident by now, the majority of us who oppose Bush (on Mudcat, anyway) hope Cheney does not in fact resign--he's much more useful to us where he is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:13 PM I, for one, hope he stays....Out I say! (Kendall) Two souls in one breast: The more moral one hopes he goes and the partisan one hopes he stays. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Amos Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:35 PM Wolfgang: You have mis-quoted Kendall by removing the context; both sentiments are aimed at removing the Republicans, and the "out!" remark was aimed at the Administration. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:48 PM Kevin: what has Bush done for the country you ask? No I didn't, actually. But if I shared your views about Bush, I know I'd want Cheney out, and replaced be someone who could be groomed to succeed Bush. And I'll be very surprised if that doesn't happen - probably ostensibly on health grounds. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: kendall Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:50 PM The name is Kendall, not Kevin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:01 PM Doug R- "What Bush has done for the country"--you actually believe what you wrote? If I have time I'll refute your argument, point by point. But I'm afraid it's total drivel. And if I don't have time, I'm sure somebody else can step in. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:12 PM "Mission acomplished" says it all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ebbie Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:22 PM Ah, but Kendall, McGrath of Harlow's name is Kevin. *G* |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: number 6 Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM My name is bill. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Feb 06 - 06:53 PM My name is Sue. How do you do? Now you gonna die! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 19 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM Doug R. - Did you click the link provided by Peace? "The Federal government's gross debt - the accumulation of its annual deficits - was about $7 trillion last September [2003], which works out to about $24,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. But that number excludes items like the gap between the government's Social Security and Medicare commitments and the money put aside to pay for them. If these items are factored in, the burden for every American rises to well over $100,000." - David M. Walker, Comptroller General of the United States. I wish I could add $100,000.000 to my personal debt without flinching. You must be a very wealthy man. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: kendall Date: 19 Feb 06 - 08:06 PM Ebbie, I was replying to Doug |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: number 6 Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:04 PM Foolestroupe ... good one !! sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Feb 06 - 08:31 AM six Son't applaud - throw money! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Amos Date: 20 Feb 06 - 09:39 AM Doug: I offer viewpoints from the world at large which are better articulated than my poor talents can muster; and by people of some public repute. Their arguments, when I choose them, are relevant to the issue; if you would care to refute those points on the issue, I would be interested. Your poorly chosen hothead President has levied destructive influence on the well-being of this country from top to bottom, with the exception of his circle of beneficiaries, and it is immoral that he should be allowed to continue. Of course, as a nation, we are used to having immoral periods, but this one has gone on long enought, IMHO. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Cheney To Resign Soon From: Ron Davies Date: 20 Feb 06 - 11:00 AM Doug R.-- Just one obvious point--don't have enough time to address your other arguments The "stock market" is not "breaking all previous records". You never check anything---do you? 1) Not even the DJIA is close to its record--still about 600 points away. 2) NASDAQ record was about 5000. Now it's about 2200. I'd say there's a way to go. 3) Individual stocks--biggest and most significant--not even close. GE record about 50 or 60. It's not even 40. Macroslop (MSFT)--not close. Maulwart (WMT)--not close--stagnant for about 5 years. Etc. 4) You'd best hope BB et al. don't get their wish and get an attack on Iran--if they do oil will go through the roof and the entire market will tank bigtime. Only Exxon et al. would benefit. Your other "points" have equal merit. |
