BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)

Subject: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:54 PM

Just refreshed this thread to say Amen! and Thank You! once again to Amos for this -- and realized I didn't add the BS to bring it 'below the line', where it might do the most good right about now. So here it is, Amos' treasure of a first post cut and pasted, and the entire thread is up above for your reading pleasure.

Oh and please, if it's easier on bandwidth not to have both threads going at hte same time, could the entire thread be moved "below" for a while ye Mudelfs?

"Subject: The Decency of the 'Cat
From: Amos - PM
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:18 PM

The Mudcat Community is populated most of all with people who are decent. In the thousands of times I have come here looking for lyrics, looking for laughs and looking for a sign of life on the planet, I have never failed to be touched by the fact that the people of the ?Cat are what I can only call ?good people?.

This means a number of things to me,

It means people who are interested in an open exchange of points of view.

It means people who share a love for the magic that happens when they hear singing, and when they sing themselves.

It means people who are generally more willing to be plain and straightforward than they are in need of being fancy, special or egoistical.

It means people who will find the time to help other people for no other reason than it seems like a good thing to do.

It means people who will go out of their way to help others find answers to questions, to share lessons learned, to make each other laugh, to provide comfort and support in hard times, to cheer the wins and celebrate the good times.

It means people who are willing to sit down at their keyboard and put their minds to work on behalf of community.

It often means people who will drive for long distances to share music or provide help.

It means people who will often go out of their way to make an environment that is safe for others.

All these elements are part of what I call the ?decency? of the folks who come here to share songs and swap stories and tell jokes and ponder the tough puzzles of life with each other.

I have seen this quality coming to the fore here over, and over, and over again, even when the temptations to do otherwise were plentiful and blatant.

And I think this is an observation worthy of recording, and perhaps pointing to from time to time when the invitations to lesser forms of conduct come knocking.

This is a truly decent place, and I love it.

A"

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:56 PM

Yaaaawn... This needed a part 2 about as much as it needed to be refreshed in the first place...

Which is to say, not at all...

"say Amen! and Thank You! once again to Amos for this"
Then send him a PM...

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:58 PM

So be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

Hahaha... there are exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

Always! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Bert
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:09 PM

Yup, even ClintonHammond is a nice guy, even though he pretends not to be at times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:19 PM

Salt of the earth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:48 PM

It's not all that good.

It's not totally bad, but it's got plenty of negatives.

One is censorship.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:50 PM

There is also cliques and some arrogance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:53 PM

Hahahaha. Good one, mart.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 08:56 PM

There is also some nazis who hang around and some anti-zionists who want to see the end of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:04 PM

Yeah, Martin, I'll agree that censorship is a drag. Why not make it easy for me and be nice to people, and then I won't have to get bogged down with this censorship crap. I'd much rather be lost in the music threads.

As I've told you before - present your point of view logically, and quit the personal attacks, and you'll never have to worry about getting a post deleted.

And I'll be much happier.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:10 PM

So, do you want an egg-headed pseudo-intellectual and logical conclusion why there are some real assholes here? I've done that before.

The personal attacks are 90% rebuttals and you know it to ones at me and you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:18 PM

I think Joe spoke most decently.

Martin should study up on those guidelines, until he understands them.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:22 PM

Gee, mart, the only thing than made any sense in that post was, "I've done that before." And, since none of the rest of it didn't make any sense, that statement doesn't make any sense.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:23 PM

I also think that I made my point eloquently, Amos.

I think you make more personal attacks on me here than many others in your own sublte way.

You know that I think your ideas are obsessive and I have told you so and it bothers you to no end. Anyone who posts hundreds if not thousands of times on the same subject and has accomplished very little with those actions is just something you don't like to hear about.

But it's true. And I have said it. So get over it, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:29 PM

gnu, perhaps you should go back to school.

How about if I put it this way for you.

There is some decency at the Cat and there are some arrogant assholes, also. There are some cliques here that are way too liberal and I am ashamed of for being in the folk music community and there are also some decent people.

Now, that's not too hard for a smart person like you to understand, is that Gnu?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:58 PM

Given your freehandedness with vile and pointless assaults, which you are apprently unconscious of after you post them, Martin, I would suggest that assaults on you are in many case -- I know in mine -- only after an insufferable string of crudities from your dirty mouth and banderlog brain. You communicate like a Neanderthal, throw stones, carry on like the crudest sort of bestial barbarian, step on feelings, denigrate personalities over and over -- and then you act all imposed upon when you get a taste of your own black medicine.

You're a professional, dedicated, long-term, persistent ass and a discredit to the folk universe; find a good rock and try aiming your poison at that, instead.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM

*daylia* abd Amos

I am agreement with you. I find this site to be a source of knowledge and amusement on almost a daily basis. I have made some very good friends as a result of the Mudcat and, my own case, my life has changed completely, for the better, purely as a result of my posting on this site.

There are posters who irritate me and a number with whose views I do not agree. If I feel strongly enough about a subject I will state my case on a thread but I've learned from experience that, for me, it is better to totally ignore any unwarranted personal attacks that result from those posts. I would rather concentrate on those people who, whilst maybe not agreeing with my point of view, are prepared to allow that we cannot always be in total accord on any particular subject. There are times when we have to agree to disagree and then walk away from a topic which might otherwise lead to arguments and bad feelings.

Discussion should be a means of exploring different views on any given subject and examining your own take on it. It is possible that, by listening to what the other person has to say, you might find that you have to moderate your own view. On the other hand it might just confirm that your own view is, to you, the right one. However, just as you might not be willing to change your view you should not expect that other people will change either. Why take that as an insult, as seems to be the case sometimes on this site? It just means that, as a result of different life experiences, the other person has a different perspective on a topic.

If another poster cannot accept that then the best thing is to walk away. Accept that you will never agree on that particular subject. There will probably be other areas in which you are in complete accord. That you do not agree is not the end of the world. Just stay away from that subject with that person.

To be honest, some threads can be interesting to read in the beginning but start disintegrating because no-one is prepared to back down from an entrenched position and the attacks start getting personal. That's when I stop reading the things.

Anyway - that's my two pence worth, for what it's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:07 PM

Thanks, Jacqui. Well put, too.

Mebbe I will learn some day, huh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:19 PM

I agree jac... jack... jack deer... a nice deer steak with...

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Janie
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:24 PM

Jacqui. Bingo!

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 10:39 PM

Sweet Jaysus (sorry, and you know who you are)... I am in tears.....

Subject: RE: The Decency of the 'Cat
From: Rick Fielding - PM
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:42 PM

Of course it's decent. And if it's politics in general seem quite liberal to some, that's 'cause we've come here (at first) for FOLK MUSIC!!

I dare say if it was a "Vikings Appreciation and Chat" site, or "Wagner vas a Vimp" forum, those of conservative bent would find a few more kindred souls. But it ain't.

Nope, A LOT of Mudcatters question authority, a lot of folks are pretty scared at the moment, AND feelings are running high....but decency? Of course. I'm not talking about the four or five 'whackballs',.....we've got far fewer than ANY of the other sites.

Cheers

Rick




Thanks again, Rick. RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 11:17 PM

Got it in one, Gnu. Thanks for the posting. His influence is greatly missed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Alba
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 11:19 PM

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Feb 06 - 11:35 PM

Amos, I can see that I hit home.

You didn't.

Nice tyrade. You can make up anything you want about me but in the end you lose, because you can never be anything but a big shot in your own mind on Mudcat, Amos. Too bad the real world left you behind.

A great example of how you can't detach your ego from personally attacking me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:21 AM

Gee... thanks. Whoever deleted that did a great job. As a matter of fact, I would like to post the following followup based on your wisdom :






Thnaks again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:28 AM

Hmmm... that sounded trite. I relly did mean to say thanks. Seriously. You made the right call.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 08:40 AM

It can be so easy to tell the decent people here from the trolls.....

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 08:41 AM

Gnu, you are welcome. It takes a man to apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 09:03 AM

Umm ... maybe you meant it takes maturity, humility and decency to apologize? I apologize when I feel it's necessary, and I could never aspire to become even half the man gnu is!

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 09:08 AM

Too right -- I don't think you could even pass the physical!


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 09:24 AM

I am another whose life changed completely as a result of my friendships here in Mudcatville. As in the real world there are a few I prefer to avoid and some I downright dislike - interestingly enough Martin Gibson is not one of them.
Mostly, I learned to sing out loud. And have opened that door to a few others. An amazing gift!

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:24 AM

Rick would back down rather than fight, even if he was right, which he usually was. It bothered him more to argue than to prove himself right, and he'd rather ignore an annoyance than lash out. He also enjoyed watching human behavior. Basically, you're either the observer or the observed when it comes to a fight. It's damned hard to be in the thick of it, then back away and try to be somewhat objective in figuring out just what's going on.

I really don't come here to argue, to engage in pissing contests, or to sally forth holding high the mighty sword of Justice and Right, do Constante (for Lo, it can never die, only be Reborn at Mudcat, for existeth in plentitoode, doth it not, in the Reale Worlde?) Battle with the Evil Lord of Ism, against alle Foes, Foriegn and Domestique, and Maketh Pretty Damme sure You All Cheque out My white Knight Armour which doth make my Butt looketh small and Firme, and blahblahblah...

Where was I? Oh yeah, I don't come here to argue because fun is more important and I have no attention span and I frequently forget who I should be arguing with or why and I don't care anyway because if I did, I'd use more periods, because, while I can write so that everything follows logically (to me, anyway) some people might object to sentences that go on for a paragraph or two.

Where was I? Oh yeah, I've met some nice people here. While some folks are the way they sound here, I think many people are nicer in person than they are at Mudcat. If they aren't, it means there are a lot more computers in prisons than I would have imagined.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:33 AM

Jeri,

Hell with periods (as the actress said to the bishop). Just keep saying your say -- it's too good to lose!! LOL!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 10:37 AM

All right!!! Just you wait until I lose weight on my diet. Ya won't be able to make fat jokes then. Ha! You only have the bald jokes left then.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 11:01 AM

"Rick would back down rather than fight, even if he was right, which he usually was."

We all miss Rick, but I have to say IF that was his philosophy, he was not doing anyone a favor. (I also think that the above statement may not be 100% true - I remember that Rick would defend his position and most people would agree with his logic)

Conflict is a natural part of human life. While it can be taken way too far, simply backing down and running off ends up with the wrong view becoming accepted fact. I can't think of any significant social change that did not involve someone taking a defiant stand in the face of seemingly overwhelming and attacking opposition.

I am probably on the opposite policitical spectrum as Martin, but we have NEVER had anything other than a civil and respectful discussion. If you re-read his posts, I have to agree with him - 90% of his "insults"(sorry, lack of a better word) are directed at people who have attacked him.

I really do think that there are people who come onboard here just for the sake of arguing. There is a recent thread - "scent free environment" where we were having a discussion. It appeared that anyone who could not come up with a defensible argument resorted to insult adn attack of the person making the opposing point.

Decency is a two way street. Perhaps practicing what you preach, and also developing a little thicker skin, would go a long way.   People take things way to personally and develop a victim comples. People are always complaining here that Mudcat has changed. Perhaps we are getting older and becoming crankier. Altercocker syndrome at work.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 11:07 AM

On my better days, I like to think of this as a place where we will probably not agree on much, but we will tend to disagree with another on the same subjects. We care about the same things, and have at it because we care about them so much.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:21 PM

Ron, Rick would have his say in a discussion, and he'd stick to his convictions, but he'd stay out of pissing contests. If he thought someone was simply picking a fight, he'd walk away. I'd tell him it bugged me, because I often would have stayed and argued, but it wasn't something he cared about, especially not the nit-picky stuff that was usually at the heart of it. Please, if you want to find the truth, go back and read what he wrote and look for arguments in which he took part.

I think people come here to argue too, and that's fine. It's like the 'liar's" club at the local country store, and if everyone's a consenting adult, there's no problem. I dislike it when someone starts an argument in what was a discussion, a sharing of opinions and information. There's room here for debate, but Not EVERYTHING should be a debate! It sure is easy to see how things turn into an argument though.

Conflict is a natural part of human life, but it isn't the only part. A person can choose when they want to take a stand and when they'd rather do something else that's more important to them. Sometimes I argue and sometimes I don't. It can be very hard to find friends or common ground when you're examining someone else's words for a weakness or anything you can object to. That seems to me to be what a lot of the BS threads are these days.

Still, although I don't like arguing as much as some, the majority of the people doing the arguing seem civil most of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 12:56 PM

"but Not EVERYTHING should be a debate"

Sorry but you are wrong!















-just kidding.   You make good points. Perhaps I remember Rick because of the clarity of his posts. He made his point and there was no need to argue. Some people just like to tell you that the sky is green even though we can all see a clear blue sky.   The problem becomes many of us (myself included) do stick around to give that person reasons why the sky is indeed blue. Frankly, we've proved out point and nothing else really needs to be said. The others argue, trying to get our goat, and often succeed.   Let the facts and opinions speak for themselves.

The old cranks that like to stir the pot are just looking for attention. Why give it to them.   Now, if I can only learn to do that!

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:16 PM

Jeri, you are like most women. You lack the testosterone to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:26 PM

'GUEST', sweetie, it's not the absence of testosterone, it's the presence of a brain. (Hehehe)

Ron, LOL. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it ain't. Old cranks have their moments.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:27 PM

The truth is that almost every regular on the Cat does in fact manage to avoid making personally offensive attacks on other people, even when they get angry. That's how it should be.

Just because we disagree with someone it doesn't have to become a fight. And even when a disagreement has turned into a fight, fights can be conducted cleanly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 01:38 PM

GUEST', sweetie, it's not the absence of testosterone, it's the presence of a brain. (Hehehe)

LOL    Hey Jeri, I think that's just GUEST's way of saying ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 02:57 PM

Reading the first version of this thread, I didn't notice the fact that it was a thread from 2003, then came across Rick Fielding's post. My first reaction was that someone was posting as Rick, and then I saw the date. I enjoyed reading his comment, and smiled because what Rick said still is just as appropriate now as it was then, and in some way, I felt like he was reminding us.
I also realized that Rick will always be with us through the gentle, friendly, funny, insightful, helpful posts that he gave us. An then I realizied that what is said here, stays here for a long, long time. We'll remember Rick with warmth and affection whenever we come across on of his posts.
How will your posts be remembered? What will people think of you 5 or 10 years from now when they stumble on an old post from Amos, or MMario, or Martin Gibson? Will they see you as a worthwhile person who shared in a special time here, or an angry and malicious troll? Maybe it doesn't matter to you. But it matters to me.

If someone comes across an old post from LEJ 30 years from now, I'd like to think they caused even a small percentage of the admiration and warm feeling that Rick's post gave me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: GUEST,Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:03 PM

Stop deifying me

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:05 PM

Yowzah, Mister Fielding. And right on, LEJ.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:06 PM

I don't deify Rick. I respected him. That's the difference between how people here felt about Rick, and how you feel about yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:09 PM

"What will people think of you 5 or 10 years from now "

Who the FK cares?!?!?!?    What are there, 12, maybe 20 regular posters here.... I'll wager that if Mudcat is even here in 5 or 10 years, they won't be....

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: number 6
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:21 PM

"What will people think of you 5 or 10 years from now"

My posts are forgotten as soon as I post them ... it will make no difference today as it will in the future.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:24 PM

Well Clinton, I see a lot of the same names posting here that I saw here in 1999, including yours, so who's to say what will be happening here in another seven years? And I'm familiar enough with your opinions to know that you really don't give a damn what people think about what you say now or said then or will say 7 years on. That's fine. I guess I associate what I say here with how I view my self, and hold what I say to that standard. I suppose we can both do that. It just says I give a damn and you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: number 6
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:27 PM

I hold what I say to that standard, based on my own moral standards regardless ... must face reality, does it really matter here?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: DougR
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:36 PM

I can't recall Rick ever insulting anyone he disagreed with. He always showed respect for the other person point of view. That is a rare quality these days here on the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:39 PM

In December o4 number6 made this astute statement regarding Leonard Cohen

"I questioned his sincerety, truthfulness in his earlier works. But as time went on he has matured, he has connected with his craft with pure honesty and delivers his artistry without inhibition or concealment. He is a great Canadian deserving of his accolades."

Well said, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: number 6
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:40 PM

There are more than you think DougR who show respect for the other persons point of view ... the ones that don't are the ones that are remembered and make it to the "front pages".

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: number 6
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:42 PM

Thak you LEJ !

I sincerely meant that too.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 03:45 PM

and so did I, number6.
It's just that Mudcat is something like Las Vegas..."what happens here, stays here." ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 09:32 AM

And also in that if you play by the rules, the house (meaning the Mudcat community) will always win in the long run.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 10:27 AM

I can't recall Rick ever insulting anyone he disagreed with. He always showed respect for the other person's point of view. That is a rare quality these days here on the Mudcat.

I'd wholly agree with the first two sentences there, Doug, and think thta Rick is a great model in those ways as well as others.

I don't actually agree with your last sentence. The really nasty posters are still, thank God, a small minority, as they always have been. It's just that they rather obtrude their presence out of proportion to their actual numbers, rather like a slug in a bowl of salad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 10:51 AM

Well said Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 12:51 PM

And the schlurping goes on in the Mudcat Daisy Chain....

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:33 PM

IF you're that jealous, CH, just bend over....I am sure we can find someone to accomodate you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:39 PM

I'm not jealous at all...

You folks can line up to suck each other silly all you want...

Just don't expect anyone else to take it seriously

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:43 PM

Oh, ok. Well, bend over anyway....


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:50 PM

Damn. Time to strap on the old snowshoes, mush down to the village, play a couple Lightfoot tunes on the box, slam a Moosehead or two, and try to get some perspective on this infernal cabin-fever thing.

Keep yer chin up, CH...it'll be Mud-season in a couple months.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:50 PM

"Anyone else" ? C'mon Clinton - you're only speaking for yourself. Most people take their sucking up very seriously. Just because you don't doesn't mean you have to spoil anybodies fun. If you don't like the thread you don't have to read it. It's pretty obvious what the thread is about. We got your point 4 posts back. It's just the flippin' internet - big deal. Go kick a puppy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 01:53 PM

I'd hate to put your mom outa work Amos...

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM

*gasp*    omigod   say it isn't so!    steady   steady make way for The Indecency of the 'Cat (Part ?!XXX!?)

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 02:07 PM

"..."bend over, anyway"
*giggling out loud*

durn, Amos...you just got 27 redemption points in my little book of "Zingers I wish I had said" ! This entitles you to 3 free meta-linguistic speculations (9 points each)

(I don't think he's gonna bend over, but the image will keep me chuckling all day.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 02:18 PM

BTW, Martin....about your comment back up there "There are some cliques here that are way too liberal"

ummmm...how liberal is ok? Can you publish your guidelines, so we'll know when to moderate our liberalism? And what if we belong to more than one clique?....do we need to apply the guidelines to each of them individually, or can we be exempted if the majority fall into the "not 'quite' too liberal category"? (I, myself, am registered in 14 cliques currently, and am at a loss as to how to monitor my convoluted liberal tendencies!)

If we are to 'walk the line' properly, according to your superior wisdom, we need clear guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: number 6
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 04:00 PM

Amos ... that was such a classical retort. It should be emblazoned on the Mucat's Home Page !!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 04:01 PM

You folks need to get out more often

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 04:03 PM

I believe I see a Mudcat Auction Item-in-the-making. A T-Shirt? A coffee mug? A toilet seat cover? A bumoer sticker???? HMMMMM

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 04:04 PM

Classic typo - BUMPER Sticker not BUM Sticker.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: number 6
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 04:04 PM

I agree CH ... but come on ... lately it's been bloody cold out here on the east coast!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 06:12 PM

Hi. Been out of town for a few days.

Bill D., just consider yourself the benchmark. Basically just a lot of hot air. If you gave up a dozen of your 14 cliques, you would still be owned by 2 others.

Thanks, Ron for recognizing the truth as I have said to so many. 90% of my "insults" are rebuttals for personal attacks on me. Considering the howling that I then get and the support, mine are more popular to read!

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 08:11 PM

The young (or relatively young) die good.

They don't have the time the rest of us do to cock-up any good we may have done.

Rick has passed the first requirement of sainthood in that he is dead but I am quite sure that he will find much of the waxing lyical about thim in this thread highly embarrasing and have a good laugh at it.

But if Rick really was thought by some to be the best example of how to behave on our forum - the best tribute that they can make to him would be to try and follow that example.

In my view - from the many public and personal exchanges that I had with him - Rick was no saint but was as human as the rest of us - but all the better for being so.

But Rick died before the worst effects and excesses of the trigger-happy and anonymous Mudcat posse and their edit buttons got to work in clearing up the town, creating more mess and our limiting essential freedoms in the process. I wonder what he is thinking of the way and extent that this silliness is defended?

Would he think it decent? I think not.........

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Feb 06 - 09:49 PM

Roger, I have the advantage of knowing what he thought about it. While I'm fine giving my impressions of him, communications were personal. How do you really think he'd feel about people attributing their own opinions to him when he's not around to set the record straight?

Or is this one of those deification things, where, since he was the epitome of good, he would have always agreed with you?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:34 AM

Roger, I have the advantage of knowing what he thought about it. While I'm fine giving my impressions of him, communications were personal. How do you really think he'd feel about people attributing their own opinions to him when he's not around to set the record straight?

Well if you know - the record would be straight - you would not be attributing your own opinions to him so there would not be any harm in you telling us.

If you read my post and you are fair - you will see that I was just speculating on what he MAY may think NOW - not attributing any opinion to him, especially none of mine.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 06:13 AM

For some reason - I am reminded of the Holy Sandal Of Brian.

Brian urging a throng of false-idol worshippers to think for themselves--to which they reply en masse "Yes, we must think for ourselves!"; the fact that everything Brian does, including losing his sandal in an attempt to flee these wackos, is interpreted as "a sign."

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:13 AM

Roger, no. These were private conversations and his opinions changed depending on circumstances. They can't change anymore, and one opinion, from one specific point in time, is irrelevent today.

Rick frequently liked to prod people out of their comfort zones, out of ruts and off on scary, but exciting, new paths. This almost always involved some disagreement/resistance.

It's hard to find a friend/teacher/mentor/whatever that can get you to question what you believe. It's taking a risk that you'll get so upset you won't speak to them anymore. People who want you to see another point of view on the 'Cat usually take an adversarial position. Who's going to try to walk a mile in their little cloven-hoofed booties? When folks set themselves up as the enemy, most people don't really try to understand their point of view.

The best debates on Mudcat happen when people who recognize the good in each other disagree, but respect each other and try to see each other's point of view. Insults and attempted virtual bitch slaps are not points of view. I know why people react. I wish they resisted the temptation once in a while and insist that folks stick to the subject before they'll reply. I also would like a million dollars and a pony.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:23 AM

Jeri,

You definitely deserve a pony. :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:24 AM

You pony up the million and...

Sorry. I'm sick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:25 AM

I've got a Severn case of the puns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:35 AM

And I'd like to be able to play barre chords reliably, with confidence, and without buzzing, dead strings someday. Hopefully before I'm pushing up daisies!   

I know, I know - practice makes perfect. *sigh*   And the same goes for the art of presenting and discussing a point of view amicably and effectively.   I'm grateful to the Mudcat for the opportunity to observe, practice and refine the fine art of public debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: kendall
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:54 AM

So, there is some "horseing around" This is the net; what mare can you ecpect?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 09:58 AM

Roger, no. These were private conversations and his opinions changed depending on circumstances. They can't change anymore, and one opinion, from one specific point in time, is irrelevent today.

As I said: - Rick died before the worst effects and excesses of the trigger-happy and anonymous Mudcat posse and their edit buttons got to work in clearing up the town, creating more mess and our limiting essential freedoms in the process.

It would have been interesting to be told how you would know his thoughts on things like this, which have occurred on our forum after Rick's death. We can all perhaps only speculate what a decent man like him would now think of such things. I would like to think that his form of online decency on our forum has not died with him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:16 AM

I'm grateful to the Mudcat for the opportunity to observe, practice and refine the fine art of public debate.

Precisely. We can still get that here in a way that is very hard to find in other settings, either on the Internet or out in the big world - if we choose to do so.

And I think it likely that for people who do choose to use the Mudcat that way, the effect is likely to affect, for the good, their ability to negotiate controversial discussions in other settings.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:48 AM

... the trigger-happy and anonymous Mudcat posse and their edit buttons got to work in clearing up the town, creating more mess and our limiting essential freedoms in the process...

How does the cherished "right" to freedom of speech become the "right" to get one's jollies at everyone else's expense??? Does "freedom" the "right" to amuse oneself online by being as vapid / vicious / slanderous / malicious / obscene / disruptive / destructive of enjoyable, healthy, productive debate as possible?

Freedom of speech does not confer the right to amuse oneself by screaming out "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre. People with functioning brains limit freedom of speech in such instances, for the sake of a greater good (ie public safety).

IMO your thread "Religion=good folk doing bad things" is a great illustration of the same type of conduct as yelling out "BOMB!" while boarding a plane. So are most of your posts here, from what I've seen so far. When I see the name "Shambles" on a post, I've come to know exactly what to expect. ANd going by the general tone of the response you get, so do most other people on this site.

So instead of whining so long and loud about how your so-called "rights" (????) are being trampled, why not just count your lucky stars that you still have your cookie? ANd while you're at it, you might send the powers that be on this site some flowers or a donation or something, just to express your appreciation.

Sincerely,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:21 AM

Roger, discussions don't happen according to your own personal time line, within your perception, nor does fact persitently agree with your personal version of Mudcat history.

I've had more practice at public debate than I want, so I'll leave this to others, while I go check for ponies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:46 PM

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:51 PM

I won't... If what you're saying involves spewing hatred, intolerance, disinformation or sucky-babby-ness.....

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: MMario
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 03:57 PM

there *are* no "essential freedoms" on the Mudcat - it is a privately owned, privately operated website. EVER SINGLE word or character posted can legally be edited or deleted at whim by the owner or his designated proxies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:03 PM

And what MMario said!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:12 PM

I'm trying to come up with a situation where I can get Shambles to defend to the death my right to say something... Heh! Heh!

For example, there's this totally cruddy bar in downtown Barrie. I'd love to go there with Shambles some night just before last call, stick my head in the front door, yell, "You're all a buncha f*ckin' LOSERS!"...then step aside and say, "Okay, Roger, you can take it from here..." (quickly exiting the scene in my getaway car, driven by Raptor, we go to his place and watch Trailer Park Boys for an hour or so, and speculate on the probably fate of our late and lamented pal, Shambles.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:17 PM

Insn't just a little bit of thread drift to go from the "Decency of the 'Cat" to yet another discussion about the "censorship" problem here ? Aren't there enough treads on this topic already ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:25 PM

Are there enough priests in the Vatican?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 04:29 PM

Are there any bars in downtown Barrie that aren't cruddy?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:11 PM

Well, you got a good point, there, Wesley. I wonder hpw that happened? I mean here we were talking about the best things about this place and all of a sudden we're listening to epople bitch about censorship again. How did that happen? Maybe there's someone out there who doesn't like talking about the underlying decency of the 'Cat, or who thinks such conversations are upsetting. Why would anyone feel that, I wonder?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:44 PM

I guess it could be considered part of the decency of the Cat that folks are allowed to go off topic without being deleated all together.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 07:59 PM

There are some bars in downtown Barry that aren't cruddy, Clinton. Several, in fact. The thing about most of those is...they are also fine dining establishments, and that tends to draw a very different crowd.

If you mean just your basic lowlife bar...watering hole...yeah, they're all cruddy. But the worst one is at the foot of Bayfield Street. It's a f*ckn hole. That is the bar at or outside of which I propose to give Shambles a chance to die defending my right to freedom of speech.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 10:26 PM

I'm a little sorry about bringing Rick's post into this, frankly. My point was and is that Rick, whether you agreed with him or not, was a reasonable and funny guy. He didn't take cheap shots, call people names, and even when he was very sick he kept his good attitude. That's all. I enjoyed and still enjoy his posts. He was no angel, because angels don't put superglue-coated quarters in juke box slots or get touchy about people criticizing their music like Mr Fielding did a rare time or two. He created enjoyable threads about how to play your guitar better. I miss him in a way I would not miss a certain few nasty-attitude people who feel it necessary to insult someone they disagree with if they were to go away. PERIOD.

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 06 - 11:34 PM

Wal, Lonesome, I guess yer tuned to the same AM station I am, too. Rolling over a back country road at midnight with the Coffee-Drinkin' Nightowl drinking instant over the radio playing "Winder SHoppin'" or maybe Elvis coming out with "All SHook Up". But I like the way you drive, man.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:28 AM

I'm a little sorry about bringing Rick's post into this, frankly. My point was and is that Rick, whether you agreed with him or not, was a reasonable and funny guy. He didn't take cheap shots, call people names, and even when he was very sick he kept his good attitude.

I miss him in a way I would not miss a certain few nasty-attitude people who feel it necessary to insult someone they disagree with if they were to go away. PERIOD.

Thank you for posting this, LEJ. It hurt to see Rick dragged into the "all hail to MY alMighty essential freedoms" stuff too, but no ... there will always be those who will manipulate how people feel about him here, using his treasured memory as ammunition, I suppose. Regrettable, but it does take all kinds to make a world...

There's at least one other current member here who's earned my respect and taught me a lot about the art of productive public discussion. That's you, Kevin (McGrath of Harlow). Like Rick, you enjoy debate, even heated debate. And certainly you hold your own, but I've never seen you insult anyone yet!

You helped me out here once, out of the goodness of your heart, when I was an absolute newbie buried in @@!!!%%&&& over a battle of a thread I started called "Violence is the American Way?" I learned much from that, and from you Kevin. And from Rick, who finally posted on that monster of a thread as The Voice of Reason and Understanding. Speaking simply, NOT about politics or history or far-reaching sociological theory but about his own personal experience -- about the kindness and friendliness of the Americans he always encountered on his many visits to the US -- well, his words went a long LONG way toward defusing the argument and angst. ANd I won't be forgetting it anytime soon!

So thank you again for that Rick, and Kevin, and to the Mudcat for continuing to be the wonderful, caring, fun, informative and inherently decent community that you are.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Feb 06 - 07:58 AM

PS I meant to mention that I never met Rick personally -- I "met" him through Mudcat when I joined in early 2003. Unfortunately he was not with us long after that (physically, anyway), but in that short time, through his influence and informative posts here, my guitar playing changed permanently for the better and so did a few of my own techniques as a music teacher. And I think it's wonderful that through Mudcat, Rick continues to influence my little students in positive ways!

And I also meant to say that no matter how much CH seems to enjoy bugging me and putting down my efforts here, I forgive and forget (when my efforts to ignore fail!) and will always be grateful to him for helping me pick out my wonderful Seagull guitar. As well as for the many, many opportunities to practice tolerance, patience, good humour and peaceful online skills. So thank you again Clinton -- you're wonderful too!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 03:40 AM

The acceptance speech was as good as at any Oscars.

Not too sure what award you were accepting though?

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 06:03 AM

You communicate like a Neanderthal, throw stones, carry on like the crudest sort of bestial barbarian, step on feelings, denigrate personalities over and over

I really think Amos went way over the top there. There's no reason to think that Neanderthals weren't as well mannered as you could wish. The rest of the sentence sounds like it's referring to typical Cro-Magnon behaviour, assuming they behaved then the same way some of us do now. But I still maintain that, fortunately, it's the exception in this corner of cyberspace.
..............
I've just had a glance back at the thread daylia mentioned - Violence is the American Way? The interesting thing is a rapid skim through it seems to indicate that, though heated at times, it managed to keep on a relatively level keel. I have a nasty feeling this might not be the case today - and I think that would be down to a very few current regulars who weren't around then.

And I think that one of the things that kept that particular thread civilised was the way spaw set the tone in the third post in: "We are NOT a violent country! You oughta' be shot for posting something like that!!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 09:20 AM

Nice picture, but a bit off topic.

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 10:56 AM

LOL    hey    maybe it's not as far off as all that, Wolfgang. It did set off a few fireworks!

Subject: RE: BS: The Decency of the 'Cat (Part II)
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Feb 06 - 11:30 AM

Proposal for members only posting of BS