BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 05:48 AM

No.
No need for an imaginary friend here.
I'm also a secular humanist verging on the militant atheist.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 03:14 AM

I think I agree with Iris DeMent that we should Let the Mystery Be.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 02:48 AM

Bel B try wwwsecularhumanism.org

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Mar 06 - 12:19 AM

I keep a worm farm. On Fridays I take the castings and feed the worms. That is the sum total of our relationship. The castings are their excrement - exceptionally good fertilizer. The castings filter through to a lower tray. The worms know nothing of the existence of the lower tray. They cannot possibly have any notion of why I keep them. I have no idea if they know I exist, believe I exist, doubt my existence, or categorically deny my existence altogether, and I don't care.
I just exist and get on with it.
An amoeba (for example), will have difficulty contemplatiing an intelligence of the magnitude required to eat rotting lettuce.
Yet the worms too exist, and get on with it.
We are not talking about human intelligence. We are talking about an intelligence which is by definition, unimaginable to human intelligence.
According to Buddha, before one can enter Nirvana, one must transcend the desire to do so.
According to Long John Baldry however, 'you can't come accross the astral bridge until you've paid the toll'.
Maybe that's what he means...

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 09:59 PM

Well said, Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 09:40 PM

I am comfortable with mystery. I do not think an anthropomorphic diety makes sense. I think diety as entity can be a useful metaphor to accept the mystery of creation and creativity. I do embrace the idea of sacred, holy, divine--again probably as metaphor--for the metaphor of the great web of 'life'.

We don't really know what consciousness is, we only know how we experience our own consciousness. We don't really know what sentience is--rocks and dirt may be sentient in a manner that is beyond our ability to comprehend. Rocks, dirt, air, water, all plants, insects, animals are parts of the web of life-of creation. In our own solar system we experience all these other planets as 'dead.' But how many times in the course of human history have we learned (sometimes too late) that things that don't appear to matter to the balance that allows life actually matter a great deal?

I am pretty active in a liberal Episcopal church that has room for people like me and I find the community and the ritual of the church very supportive and meaningful in my life. They support my own efforts to be mindful.

I guess I believe in Mystery.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 08:57 PM

Yes...

The only One...

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 08:31 PM

I'm confused. I either believe in all of the above or none of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,Bel-B
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 05:08 PM

What is a secular humanist ? I think I might be one !

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,Zigz
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 05:03 PM

Good on you , LH. Well said !

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 03:07 PM

Hmmm ... goodpoint, it certainly is L.H.

Greed and power makes one feel they are sitting on the right hand of God, then there are those that want the seat God id sitting on.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 03:03 PM

I couldn't agree more. Matter of fact, that's why I always say that being obsessed with money IS a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 03:01 PM

I'm not saying they or we are good or evil ... I'm stating the power for greed of economical power is just as dark as the power of religeous zealotry ... both are scarry. It all comes down to 'power' albeit be for economical power or power of the righteousness of religeon.

obsession with Money makes a man crazy

obsession with Religeon makes a man crazy

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 02:53 PM

Yeah, sure...just like they are "perfectly welcome" to come over here to the White House and Whitehall and say, "You have no right in the Middle East. Please remove all your troops, bases, and secret service people right now. Go home. Right now. Leave us alone. Pretty please?"

Your counterpoint is useless, because it's as unworkable as mine.

I am simply stating what IS occuring, and saying it's realpolitik, not trying to prove that they are good and we're evil. We just happen to have more power to project ourselves overseas at this time in history.

They had more power to do so when they were occupying Spain, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 02:46 PM

Well L.H ... your certainly welcome to go over there and tell them that they have got it all wrong with their 'Jihad thing'. I'll be waiting anxiously back here for your return and to hear how it all went and how you straightened them all out. After your triumphant return we can all rest comfortably knowing that these Islamic fanatics over 'there' won't be so fanatical knowing that the whole messy greed over oil isn't just to be blamed on those dirty infidels.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 02:27 PM

I'd be willing to wager it still woulda happened, but maybe not to this extent.... and it certainly wouldn't be such big 'news'

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 02:24 PM

No, 6, Atta didn't personally do it over oil, but he did it as a single little human pawn caught up in a long series of dire historical events that have pitted the Muslim inhabitants of an extensive area called the Middle East against the inhabitants of Anglo-America...and those historical events were driven by the need for oil to fuel the industrial and military power of first Britian, and then the United States and Britain together, to hold and control vast oil reserves under Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and the smaller Gulf states (mostly created by the British Empire in its efforts to manage the region). Without the oil, there would be no such quarrel. The Muslims in that region would be fighting their immediate neighbours instead (over the usual typical nonsense, I'm sure), but not fighting a long distance war with Britain and America.

They aren't fighting us because we are Christian or democratic or non-Muslim. They're fighting us because WE have an interest in controlling the oil under their land...and WE have sent armies there to do that for a very long time now...and WE have propped up dictators to serve as our agents over them...and WE have brought down governments that didn't cooperate with us on managing the oil...and WE have been messing in their affairs ever since England went charging all over the world taking on the "white man's burden".

If Al Queda thinks it's a religious struggle, they are welcome to their misconception. It's a struggle that never would have happened at all without the oil. Nobody would care.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 02:08 PM

"English Atheists don't speak Latvian, silly...."

Thanks Joe ... I know I'm not really thinking today .. silly of me!

Sorry L.H. ... still disagree, I don't think Mohammed Atta slammed that plane into the Trade centre over oil, and the maestro conducting that horrific act is motivated by the fact of the infidel having an influence over the land of Mahammed than making sure he has the power of oil ... now the U.S. certainly has non-spiritual concerns over the mid-east, that's for sure.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 02:00 PM

Do I believe in God?

I do not believe in an anthropomorphic god. If, indeed, there is a god that created the universe, it could not possibly be humanlike. Any entity with that kind of power would have to be something so far beyond mankind that the human mind simply could not comprehend it.

When you consider that the universe was created out of an immense explosion an estimated 15 billion years ago—the so-called "Big Bang"—that produced uncountable billions of galaxies, each composed of hundreds of millions of stars, many of which are orbited by planets at least a small percentage of which may be much like the earth that we live on, and that this universe includes various states of matter and energy that we are only now beginning to realize exist, the idea of all of this being cobbled together by a bearded man-like figure wearing a bed-sheet is just plain silly!

Why is there such a thing as the universe at all? We don't know. We will probably never know. And no matter how loudly religious figures proclaim, religion cannot give us an answer to that question either. The best it can provide is mythology and random speculation. If there is a consciousness behind the creation of the universe, any human being who claims to "know the Mind of God" is either possessed by a kind of megalomaniac madness or is a con-man attempting to prey on the ignorant and gullible. We've seen—and are still seeing—many examples of this.

If I believe in God at all, I do not believe in a physical entity. My concept of "God" is just that—a concept—an abstraction. And the concept is spelled with an additional "O." Good. The question then becomes, "what, exactly, is Good?"

Good is that which enhances Life. Evil is that which is detrimental to Life.

A whole religion can be (and, I believe, a few have) been constructed around this simple beginning. And an omnipotent, omniscient bearded old man sitting up on Arcturus 12 (known locally as "Heaven"), granting prayers, writing down people's sins, marking the fall of sparrows, and hurling thunderbolts at those who tick Him off is totally unnecessary for such a religion.

With this as a basic premise of my beliefs, how can I possibly ally myself with the Christian religion? I go to a Christian church from time to time, not because I believe that the mythology expressed is historical fact, but because in the broad sense there is much truth in the mythology. Jesus advocated that which enhances Life and urged people to eschew that which is detrimental to it. The essence of Jesus' teaching is to be found in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5), and in Matthew 25, verses 35 through 40. The church I go to attempts to follow these teachings as closely as possible. And it is inclusive, not closing its doors to those whom many other churches feel are beyond the pale. It is a signatory to the "Reconciled in Christ" document, which, in essence, says

As a community of God striving to be inclusive and open to diversity, we, the members of Central Lutheran Church, welcome all people to join us as we struggle to better understand the mysteries of God's teaching and purposes for us. Although our world can seem to be a place of alienation and brokenness, Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged by Christ to care for, to love, to understand, and to listen to each other, regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation, national origin or economic status. We celebrate the special gifts that each has to bring.

Central is heavily involved in what is referred to as "social ministry." In cooperation with several other churches in the area, Central provides meal programs, to see that those in need can find at least one good, nourishing meal every day of the week, and is involved in programs to provide housing for the homeless. It also conducts "alternatives to violence" workshops in local penal institutions and in the community at large. And it also houses the offices of the national director of the Lutheran Peace Fellowship. Like others who attend Central Lutheran Church, I believe that you can't just sit back and bellyache about what you feel needs to be done in the world. If you really mean it, you have to get down in the trenches yourself. My support of Central Lutheran Church allows me to multiply my own efforts in this kind of endeavor.

Considering my agnostic—or possibly atheistic—position regarding the existence of an actually entity called God, I'm not sure what some of the other folks at Central would think of this, but I have a suspicion that many believe pretty much as I do. What is important there is not the nuts and bolts of each individual's theological beliefs. What is important is, are you willing to stick your neck out for what you think is right?

The Reverend Jim Wallis, editor of "Sojourners" magazine and author of The Call to Conversion (which deals with the growing gap between the rich and the poor in the world) and God's Politics : Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It, points out that there are over 3,000 verses in the Bible regarding the poor, and strongly asserts that matters of poverty and war are moral values too. Members of the Christian Right merely shrug off these core Christian values and limit their consideration of "moral values" to abortion and gay marriage. In addition to his writings, Rev. Wallis appears on radio and television and travels the country giving lectures and speeches. He is truly a modern day prophet in the tradition of the prophets of old.

Pro-Life. How can someone be truly pro-life if, while they are opposed to abortion, are unwilling to provide the social services necessary for a poor single mother to help her care for herself and her child? And how can one be pro-life if one is willing to send young people off to kill or be killed in a war that the vast majority of the world's peoples have declared in no uncertain terms to be wrong?

Do I believe in God? That depends on how you spell it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 01:04 PM

As another example: My friends in Trinidad tell me that there is always trouble between the religious communities there (Muslim/Hindu/Christian) during election campaigns...but not the rest of the time. Why? Power is at stake during elections. Unscrupulous politicians seeking power and votes deliberately stir up strife between the religious communities.

This isn't directly the fault of religion. It's the fault of power-seeking politicians taking advantage of people religious fallibility. If the people weren't religious, the politicians would just work another angle instead. They'd focus on racial differences, for example, or cultural differences.

We are seeing the playing out of ruthless power games in the world. The same games would be playing out if we were all atheists, I assure you.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 01:03 PM

I have no problem accepting purely scientific theories regarding the origin of the Universe and the evolution of life. But, I feel that science breaks down when it attempts to tackle the idea of human consciousness. I believe that purely empirical and pragmatic explanations for the evolution of human consciousness are lacking.

To be aware, and to be aware that one is aware is a concept unique to human consciousness and there are absolutely no scientific explanations that adequately explain the phenomenon. Therefore, I see a strong possibility of a connection between human consciousness and something "beyond". I prefer the term "ground of all being" to "God". As to what characteristics it may have, I don't worry about that, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with some old guy with a long beard sitting on a throne.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 01:02 PM

English Atheists don't speak Latvian, silly....

Yes, I believe in God.
But I think God last voted Republican in 1860...

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:58 PM

Sure they are, 6, but what do you think is really causing war in the world right now? I think it's the struggle to control oil reserves. That was what caused Japan to go to war against the USA in '41 too. They needed oil (and steel). It's realpolitik. Religion, patriotism, racial pride, historical grievances, all these will be pulled out of the hat like a rabbit when the need is there to get people willing to fight a war over land and resources.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:53 PM

I don't think it's a "propaganda motivivator' at all, far from it ... religeous zealots, fanatics are in for their beliefs ... it's just hard for us unbelievers and moderates to comprehend.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:50 PM

Yeah, but these days more wars are fought for material gains (like controlling oil reserves) than on account of any religion. Religion is just used as a propanda motivator to get people to fight, in my opinion. For that, it works remarkably well.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:49 PM

Carol ... what's an English Atheist, as opposed to lets say, a Latvian Atheist?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Carol
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:44 PM

I believe people are killed wars are fought on account of religion.
I think of myself as a Secular Humanist but sometimes recently I've been thinking that might be too liberal for me so I'm probably an English Atheist these days.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:44 PM

"Do you believe ? Which one ?"

Sam (The Teutonic god for whom Samstag was named)

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:43 PM

Yes I do ... that one.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:42 PM

I'm kinda in the same pew as LH, but I do have some Deist tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:39 PM

"I don't drink that stuff"

Yer loss mate....

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,wordy.
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:36 PM

No I've never had the need or understood the need in others. As above, I'm a secular humanist.If things go on as they are, we will soon be a threatened species in need of protection from the people who have the need.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:28 PM

I don't drink that stuff. That puts me a buck-fifty ahead of you.

You did so choose your role. You're choosing it in every moment. What're you telling me? You think God chose it for you or something? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:28 PM

Brought up in a liberalish Anglican home,define myself as a Secular Humanist (A term I prefer to "Atheist" because it defines me by what I believe in rather than what I don't.) I am happily married to a liberal Christian.
If any Monotheist has a problem with my non-belief I remind them that the Human race has imagined thousands of "Gods" through the ages
of which the number I do not believe in exceeds the number that Christians Jews & Moslems don't by merely one.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:22 PM

I didn't choose this role...


"That's my theory."
That and a buck-fifty will get you a small cup of crappy coffee.....

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:19 PM

By God, that's sad all right, Groo. Pathetic is the word for it.

"Groo" was a character in a funny Marvel comic that was out in the 80's and 90's. He was a parody of Conan the Barbarian. Groo was very, very stupid, but totally deadly in combat. His poor judgement always led to a series of disasters to the general public around him, but he would always make out okay in spite of it. People detested him and regarded him as a roving natural disaster of the worst kind conceivable. They usually fled at his approach if they recogized him, but he often wandered into new places where they didn't (at first). He spent months at one point thinking that he was the Duke of Chichester. To explain why would consume more time than I can spare at the moment. ;-)

The evidence you seek (or not) shall continue to elude you, Clinton. It is simply not pertinent to your chosen role in this life. That's my theory.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:13 PM

I believe in bugs,
I truly believe in bugs-
If you come down to my restaurant at half-past four
You will see the little buggies running round on the floor,
Singing I believe in bugs,
I truly believe in bugs.

Ivor Cutler

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:09 PM

Show me any good evidence and I'll be willing to reconsider, but so far, I'm more likely to put stock in Magic Bullets

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,Groo
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

The Duke of Chichester ? What's that ?

I do remember starting school and saying that I didn't believe in GOd. The other kids then told me that if I didn't believe in God then I must believe in the devil. I don't think I knew who the devil was, and these were 5 year old kids who instantly made the assosciation between one thing and another. That's sad.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:06 PM

Groo, did you ever get over that "I am the Duke of Chichester" thing? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:04 PM

Oh, my parents were atheists too. I think... Anyway, they didn't bring me up in any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,Groo
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:03 PM

Good on you Little Hawk ! A kiss on the cheek !

Subject: RE: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 12:00 PM

Yes.......

I believe in the God that none of them have any exclusive claim upon nor any label for.

It's non-denominational, beyond gender, requires no holy book, is exclusive to no prophet or faith, and would feel just fine if all the organized religions vanished and were never heard of again.

Subject: BS: God! Do you believe ? Which one ?
From: GUEST,GRoo
Date: 28 Feb 06 - 11:54 AM

Perhaps not politically correct, but do you believe in God ? And which one is yours ?

I come from a Christian country, but my parents were atheists and they told us we were free to believe if we wanted. I have never had any inclination, though I would love to find a "church for me" for social gatherings and to know that you can go somehwere new and have an instant "family".

On sister has some religious thoughts, but that might be more due to mental health issues.

Another sister could believe when illness strikes, I think.

Another sister ahs no inclination like me.

Funnily enough, I am from Glasgow , where we have a problem with religious bigotry. Even some of my life long friends would still class me as a catholic or a protestant, but that is probably a matter for another thread. ( I am neither, and what they think I am reflects what they are, not me ! )