The folk tradition in Wales

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 12:42 PM

Sorry, Splotty. That was the last one (and right on your doorstep). Tell you what - if they publish the lectures, I'll let you know.

We're doing a project down in Pembrokeshire and Roy Saer has promised to do some talks re: the Pembs tradition. I'll post those details when I have them too.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Splott Man
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 11:19 AM

Blast, missed it again! When's the next one Sian?

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Scooby Doo
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 10:35 AM

Its Mick and Olly not OLLIE.
Scooby

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 10:27 AM

Yep, a crackerjack line-up ... and the birthday cake and bara brith topped it off nicely.

You missed Beth Thomas' lecture on the St Fagan's archives. She showed some great footage of the Mari Lwyd and a few other things. There's a huge revamp of the Oriel (formal displays) underway at the Museum and there will be a bank of terminals in the public areas which will allow access to the digitized parts of the collection. Looks like a start on making the material more available. Beth is very good at 'thinking IT' and I know she's looking at making more stuff available on the web as well.

And Roy Saer was superb on the Mari Lwyd - as always. Again, lots of stuff to mull over!

And good to see you again Mick, and Ollie. I'll email you later.

sian

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Dr Price
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 09:16 AM

What a day! We just got back from the Mayor of Newport's coffee morning in aid of Tredegar House Folk Festival (Paul Flynn MP, the Folk Festival's president, was there) and we caught up on Delwyn Sion, Wyn James and Rhiannon Ivans' riveting and interesting lectures. The Welsh Folk Song Society deserves to be congratulated in organising their centenary celebrations like this!

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:08 PM

Some people may be interested in the lectures this weekend in Cardiff. I don't think there's any problem if you can't book in advance; you can just show up. The Oakdale is the Miners Welfare Hall which is a fairly new addition to the St Fagan's site.

sian


Oakdale Institute, Museum of Welsh Life, St Fagan’s
Saturday 22 April 2006

PROGRAMME
10.30 Coffee
10.55 Chair’s Welcome
11.00 The Collections of the Welsh Folk Museum, Beth Thomas
11.45 The Singing of the Mari Lwyd, D. Roy Saer
12.30 Lunch
1.30 Songs of ‘Morgan’s Country’, Delwyn Sion
2.15 The Ballad in Glamorgan, E. Wyn James
3.00 ‘In Seemly Throng?': The tradition of Plygain Singing Rhiannon Ifans
3.45 Tea

The financial support of the Arts Council of Wales for this event is acknowledged with thanks.   

There is no charge for the day. Tea and coffee will be provided.   There are facilities at the Museum gallery for light lunches. The parking fee for the day is £2.50. The activities will be held in Welsh but there will be translations facilities into English.

It would be a great help if you would notify the Association of your intent to attend the day’s activities, so that coffee and tea can be ordered. Please send names Dr E. Wyn James, 16 Kelston Rd., Yr Eglwys Newydd, Caerdydd CF14 2AJ (029-2062-8754; e-mail: [e-mail]) by Thursday 20 April 2006.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 04:13 AM

And Fflach records, too. Plus all the very small independents and DIY publishers. Tant, for instance, put out the Rhes Ganol CD - 5 triple harpers. Great sound.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 02:46 AM

Sain Records deserves a mention somewhere in this thread for consistently bringing welsh language music to a wider audience for the past 30 years.
ifor

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 12:04 AM

yeah.. i spotlighted that in the radio times
for me & mrs punkfolkrocker to listen to/record..

but we accidently went out drinking instead..

she's off to visit her N.Welsh in-laws for easter
so i hope she remembers to enquire about their side of the families
music memories..

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 06:21 AM

I agree wholeheartedly, greg. I have an addiction to archive recordings but, at the end of the day, there's no way that I would make an attempt to sound like them. I DO use them to encourage people who don't feel that they are good singers ... as such are defined by the current establishment. And there are issues of regionality in 'source singers' as well which need to be encouraged.

Re: rugby, I just heard on a radio documentary last night that the Welsh introduced the notion of singing national anthems before games in 1905. The Kiwis were apparently playing Wales and were doing their Hakka (sp?) and one of the Welsh organizers reckoned that the only way of regaining the psychological advantage was to have the Welsh players sing Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau. This had, by 1905, become well established in Wales and all the supporters joined in. Apparently scared the beejayzus out of the Kiwis!

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:33 AM

The "unbroken tradition" is often mentioned, and it is a very fine thing. But you need to be wary of it, and not give it undue weight. For example, I may sing the odd song I learnt from my grandfather, and maybe he got some of them from his grandfather. But that does not mean that the way I play and sing has any particular similarity to the way my great-great grandfather did. It might do, or it mught not. So you would be exceedingly foolish to assume anything from it about how people sung a generation or two back.
That is why early 20th century recordings are so valuable and interesting if you like folk music. So much has been overlayed onto Welsh music by the Eisteddfod on the one hand, and the folk revival(and the associated "pan-Celtic" industry) on the other, that it is very very difficult to get a handle on what Welsh raditional music actually sounded like.
    On a totally different note(and a bit of thread creep to another Welsh tradition), my grandfather, Dai Gent, invented the concept of the specialits scrum and fly halves(as opposed to the left and right halves, which had been the practise hitherto). There, I knew you'ld find that interesting.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:20 AM

Matthew, I know that some of your list at least were flagged up to Kennedy by the Welsh Folk Song Society's members and many had already been recorded by St Fagans - and are, indeed, in the archive. If memory serves, Hywel Wood is seen clogging in the Hollywood film, The Last Days of Dolwern. I can't remember if there's singing in it too and the harper accompanying him might also be one of the Woods. There's film 'short' from the BBC which has managed to survive - Noson Lawen is the title I think - and that has quite a few of the singers who were still available in the 1950s/60s. It was played on continuous loop at a recent National Library of Wales exhibition on the history of Welsh music.

Ifor, get hold of The Rough Guide to the Music of Wales CD. It has the whole range of this, including archive material of John Thomas singing the 'rude' "Hen Ladi Fowr Benfelen", a clip of 'canu pwnc' and Nansi Richards (harp) as well as Boys from the Hill, Fernhill, Meic Stephens, etc.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM

I think it is worth mentioning the music work of Meic Stephens of West Wales who has made a number of albums which are worth exploring .His is a notable name in the cannon.

Also I think the "Men They Couldn't Hang "did a brilliant song about the Crawshays ,the ironmasters of Merthyr .I cant remember the title but I am sure there is a Mudcatter out there somewhere who can!!!
Ifor

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:44 AM

I've had a look at my old Caedmon/Topic series of LPs The Folk Songs of Britain and they featured a few Welsh items including some songs by the Woods gipsy family from Bala. There were also a couple of recordings of the Mari Lwyd ceremony in the same series, as well as some songs by Phil Tanner and William Howell.

I'm sure I've got a copy somewhere of an article by Mike Yates about the Woods family, and I'll try to dig that up.

The Roud Index at VWML Online is a good source for English language recordings from Wales. I don't know how accessible the BBC archives are but it seems that Peter Kennedy and Seamus Ennis recorded a fair amount in Wales for the BBC in the 1950's.

Some source singers among the BBC archives are;

William David Thomas, Gilfach, Glamorgan
David Jenkins, Llangynmwyd, Glamorgan
Tom Edwards, Bryneglwys, Denbighshire
William Howell, Fishguard, Pembrokeshire
Phil Tanner, Gower, Glamorgan
Jack J. Jones, Cardigan
Ben Phillips (Ben Bach), Lochtwrffin, Pembrokeshire
Andrew Thomas, Fishguard, Pembrokeshire
Gwen Harris, Pembrokeshire
Hassel Morgan, (?), Wales
Hywel Wood and Manfrie Wood, Bala, Merioneth

Greg's notion of looking in the Border counties seems a good one; my own family on my father's side are spread all over parts of North Wales and Cheshire and Shropshire, but sadly without any music or song tradition among them.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:06 AM

thurg, the rural Alberta would have probably been the townships of Magic, Climax and Eureka, I imagine, if it was a Welsh settlement of any size. It's history is included in the work at Carlton U (Ottawa) mentioned before.

Bob and richd, I mentioned that Dr Mary Davies collected songs on a phonograph given to her by Edison himself. (or at least that was my intent!) I think it can be taken for granted that those recorded by her and at least two other women in N Wales at the time, were not 'much affected by electronic media'. Some of those original cylinders (which predated 78rpm discs) still exist in various archives, including EFDSS, and are indeed part of the reference material which we use today. So what if they were transcribed into print? (or that a whole lot more material appeared solely in print, as most collectors didn't have access to any other technology.)

Greg, I would think that the May Bradley stuff might well be in EFDSS and it could well be that people more 'into' this work than I know about it. Siwsi George certainly had an interest in Gypsy song (just as Robin Huw Bowen has an interest in Gypsy harp) and the Gypsy contribution has always been respected in Wales.

I remember reading about an Ethnomusicologist conference in the states some years ago where a Kentucky (I think) 'source singer' was wheeled in and asked to sing some of his favourite songs. Those there congregated got all huffy because he sang things other than Child Ballads. I think there are some faulty assumptions made about people's relation to 'the Media'. Just because they are rural, doesn't mean that they didn't have radio early on - or that they should be honour bound to forgo the entertainments of wider society because of some duty to future generations to remain 'primitive'. And, equally relevant but conversely, just because they were recorded in the '50s or '60s doesn't mean that the DID have access to Media; my father's home farm in NE Wales didn't get electricity in the house until 1959 so weren't great TV watchers or radio listeners.

And just because technology moved on, it doesn't mean that it was any more available ON A LOCAL BASIS to record local singers. Welsh settlement patterns are different from English and access to towns or cities of sufficient size to have recording facilities. Still, there were radio programmes (and later tv) which went out of their way to bring source singers to the studio. Unforunately, the BBC has limited resources and you'll find that a huge amount of this stuff was either never taped (in the days of live-only broadcast) or taped over (when tape was an expensive resource).

richd: "I'd suggest that this implies that the idea of an unbroken, linear, monocultural and single language tradition surviving in Wales in this century is problematical. Basically, we make it up as we go along. Except for THE ONLIE TRUE WELSH TRADITION of course which is kept in a meat safe behind a settle in the Pink Cottage at St Fagans and taken out on high days and holidays. Allegedly."

There are so many points in that which I simply don't follow, I don't know where to start to respond. But making a guess and taking a stab:

There is an unbroken tradition. I have friends, who I've mentioned earlier, who are part of it. Instrumental and vocal. Others are making it up as they go along. (Not our 'fault', but possibly our 'problem'.) No-one has EVER suggested, within Wales, that we are mono-cultural. The regionality of Welsh culture has always been taken as fact. In the 19th C, and into the 20th, 80 per cent of Wales (more in some areas) was Welsh speaking, but even within that there were huge variations in accent and dialect and that too is a natural part of the national psyche

St Fagan's has an archive, which you can liken to a meat safe if you'd like, but like all archives (British Sound, EFDSS, Welsh Sound Archive, BBC, etc) they are bound by stupid UK copyright legislation AND archive security protocols AND a constant fight for funding from gov't for resources to make things more available. I've never had a problem arranging to hear what they DO have and really the only argument that bears any weight here is that the commercially published archive collections are few and far between. It can't be argued that the collection hasn't been happening.

sián

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: richd
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 06:00 PM

Greg makes a good point I think. The Welsh tradition may not just consist of songs in the Welsh language, and there may be considerable overlap around the English/Welsh border. My in-laws live in south Shropshire, and I've done quite a bit of cycling around Craven Arms, Church Stretton, Corvedale etc- and sitting in pubs in the middle of nowhere talking to people, and you'd be hard pressed to tell a Welshman from Radnor from an Englishman from Shropshire. Traditions leak- thank god.

The point about technology I was trying to make in an earlier post was that there was a unique period of say ten-twelve years in between the inventionm of basic sound recording mediums and the broadcast technology of sound film and radio. The primary means for distributing the early recordings was 78rpm disks. You thus had the possiblity of commercial recording of LOCAL songs etc, which would then gain a wider audience, but at the same time singers were singing according to local tradition, and not on the basis of how they thought a song should sound because they'd heard it on the radio or in a film. Some songs, and more importantly performances- mainly in the United States- made it through this process- luckily. Wales wasn't so lucky, the interest in recording ordinary people came after the development of the main mass media, when the oral tradition was already in decay.

I'd suggest that this implies that the idea of an unbroken, linear, monocultural and single language tradition surviving in Wales in this century is problematical. Basically, we make it up as we go along. Except for THE ONLIE TRUE WELSH TRADITION of course which is kept in a meat safe behind a settle in the Pink Cottage at St Fagans and taken out on high days and holidays. Allegedly.

However, members of my family are noted for their singing of unique verses to the song known as 'Cosher Baileys Engine'in licensed premises the length and breadth of the Taff valley. But no one with ears would ever want to record them- but that's tradition for you.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 12:52 PM

I offer this as a curiosity, not that it's likely to help with anyone's search ... I had a colleague who told me that she had grown up in a primarily-Welsh community in rural Alberta (Canada). This would have been thirty-forty years ago. She is a good singer, and as a child was a prominent contender, if not a star, in local singing contests in the Welsh language. She is not Welsh herself, but was coached by Welsh speakers. Unfortunately, she's moved away, so I'm not able to find out any more about that!

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:21 AM

Just a thought, and it may be ludicrous, but what about the BBC Archive? Were they doing field recordings in Wales early on? Or would their preference have been for choirs, etc.?

I know those Archives are huge and virtually impenetrable. Still, what if...?

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:16 AM

I too like the simple definition of living tradition above. In defining tradition I try to do so as loosely as possible, avoiding the kind of artificialities that hang up scholars.

Nor am I insisting on rough craggy voices (though I love them when they're good). Many traditional singers sang in mild, relatively sweet tones -- Maud Long (Hot Springs, North Carolina) was a fine example, and she learned her singing from her mother, Jane Gentry, one of the greatest American traditional singers. Texas Gladden of Salem VA was generally mild-voiced too.

What I was seeking was admittedly a dying breed -- old-timers who had not heard, or at least had not been much affected by, electronic media. My hope was that some field recordings might have been done in Wales before singers were mentally conditioned by radio, TV, recordings, etc. whose musical assumptions are professional and polished. What I wanted was singers relatively unaffected by such styles -- as nearly all of us nowadays can't help being.

So I was hoping recordings of Welsh traditional singers might exist from, say, the 1920s or 30s. That apparently not being the case, next best would be those singers who consciously sing (and play if instruments are used to accompany) in the way their parents or grandparents did. That more or less eliminates professional performers, as well as those conditioned by Eisteddfod-style imposed rules and expectations.

I know that what I'm saying is internally inconsistent, but I'm groping to define the indefinable. Unmediated tradition is an impossible goal, but I look hardest for singers approximating toward that extreme.

Thanks all for a stimulating and worthwhile discussion. Bob

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:28 PM

There seems to have been a slight consensus building here that for actual traditional recordings(as opposed to written down material) you're better off looking at Patagonia or Maerica where the Welsh may have been more motivated to respect the memories of some material.
    I would make a modest suggestion that you might try looking a little closer to home: England, for example. The Welsh did not just cross the Atlantic: lots went to Cumbria to the mines, lots went to Lancashire and Cheshire, lots went everywhere. At the moment as part of a pproject I am devoting a fair bit of attention to the songs of May Bradley. She was recorded in the 60's by Fred Hamer in the Raven in Ludlow, Shropshire(to be precise,in the Raven pub, as Steve, a phoner-in to radio Shropshire told me the other day). Which tends to place her version of the "The Willow tree"(as immortalised by eliza Carthy), "The Leaves of Life"."The Unquiet Grave" etc as "classic recordings of English folksongs". But we shoudnt foget that May was in fact a Welsh-speaking Gypsy, and like many Gypsies she was a person devoted to remembering and maintaining a stock of very old music. I dont know where she was born, but she certainly spent a large portion of her life in Wales.
   Now, I have never heard that she recorded any songs in the Welsh language. But I would put up the recordings of her singing as very much part of the Welsh tradition. And a hugely significant part too, given the very sad virtually total lack of traditional Welsh recordings. If you get the chance, find her songs and listen. Alas, as far as I know, there is no one CD on which you can find all her stuff(I hope someone can prove me wrong on that one, one will surely be issued any day now).
   By the way, at the Otley Gypsy and Traveller event tomorrow(at the Courthouse, Otley, April 88, 1.30 onwards), Kate Barfield will be singing a few May Bradley songs in honour of a unique performer.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:33 AM

Sally Harper truly knows her stuff, particularly in that field. She's a lecturer at UC Bangor. I recently heard her lecture on 16th Century liturgical music in Wales after which we had a preview tour of St Catherine's Church which is being reconstructed a la 1530 at the Museum of Welsh Life ('folk museum') in Cardiff. A really interesting package, but I'd also like to hear her speak on the period music apart from the liturgy, which is more where the folkie interest lies.

I think Patagonians are now taking some action to prop us their Welshness. Just after Cymdeithas Madog started teaching Welsh in North America, the Patagonian community started doing something similar. In fact, I think they have Welsh teachers from Wales go out for whole terms to shore up the language. A friend of mine gets booked quite regularly to adjudicate at the Eisteddfod.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:29 AM

..and i'm 99% certain this is the BBC radio 3 program i refered to..



The Early Music Show
Made in Wales
Saturday 12 November 2005 13:00-14:00 (Radio 3)

Made in Wales: Part of the series of programmes dedicated to the music of Britain.
Sally Harper, in conversation with Catherine Bott,
pieces together the fragments of a colourful musical history."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/earlymusicshow/pip/i25pu/

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 09:19 AM

hi siân.. the wife thanks you..

apparently she has an 'aunty-in-law'[?] from N.Wales [she's never met],
who went out to Patagonia years ago as a Welsh speaking religious missionary..



the only direct reference to music I could find is this..


"1970's: A revival of some industry in Trelew, but a difficult period for the Eisteddfod and there is a further decline in the Welsh-speaking population. The dictatorial governments in Buenos Aires weren't prepared to back any teaching of the Welsh language. A glimmer of hope comes from the setting up of the Chubut School of Music, which provides more contributors to the eisteddfodau."


http://www.s4c.co.uk/cofpatagonia/e_1970.shtml

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 05:32 AM

Chris, that was interesting, about Arthur Jones. Another connection to hymns apart from Blodwen - and I think it might be Chicago as well - was Y Milwr Bychain, the children's hymn. By Daniel Protheroe maybe? His daughter, or possibly niece, was a member of Dewi Sant Welsh United Church in Toronto in my days there.

Yes, a proper Welsh folk programme on Radio Cymru would be good. Write and tell them. Apparently the first ever Welsh folk programme was broadcast from Ireland in the 1940s because British Radio wasn't interested.

And, not being all that technical, could you expand on why a blog would be the way to get info on-line? We're currently looking at setting up a searchable data base approach.

Gervase, we have real problems doing work in schools because, for the better part of the school year, all music/dance effort is directed at winning eisteddfodau. A real pain in the butt. (And I'd guess your neighbour won a medal or ribbon for singing? The Chair in the National is for poetry, as is the Crown. Carry on with the subversion. Well done, that man.)

Snuffy, that was an interesting archive at Wisconsin. There were a lot of Welsh in the State, of course. Hence the town, "Wales". The recordings were largely of hymns, plus a few popular 'parlour songs' and moral ballads of the mid to late 19th C. I've bookmarked the site for future reference.

Punkfolkrocker, I had meant to ask my Spanish teacher if there was any research done into the Patagonian Welsh repertoire (it's a Spanish-through - the- medium- of- Welsh class and Teacher is Patagonian Welsh) but I arrived late! I'll try to catch him again. There's an essay in Carlton University, Ottawa, about the Welsh in Canada, and there are a few poems from the Welsh settlements on the Canadian Prairies. Perhaps the Alberta and Saskatchewan Provincial Archives would have old programmes from Eisteddfodau and Cymanfaoedd Canu. Still, most of this would reflect what was current in Wales, again given the periods of immigration. The Saskatchewan communities would also reflect Patagonia as close to 300 of the original settlers had come from there to Saskatchewan.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Blether
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 02:45 PM

Well well small world. Sad about the Eisteddfod judges. I thought Welsh language music on the maes was a bit edgy, perhaps that is only the rock.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 08:35 AM

Richd, I love your definition of a living tradition - it's one of the best and most succinct that I've come across.
Certainly Calon Lan seems to be part of the musical DNA in West Wales; our local hunt closes its pub sessions with a spine-tingling rendition. Hearing it sung like that is like hearing the Holmfirth Anthem, the Cadgewith Anthem or the Sheffield carols sung in their proper homes. That's real folk music, and it's powerful stuff.
I also agree with richd and Sian on the straitjackets imposed by the Eisteddfodiau; our youngster is currently traipsing around Ceredigion doing his dancing in various competitions, and if it's remotely traditional, I'm a Dutchman. The same for the singing. I have a friend and neighbour who won a chair in the national for his singing, and he's purely an 'art' singer. He knows some traditional songs, but only as arranged and not as collected. I see it as my mission to 'corrupt' him - which given his capacity for Felinfoel, might yet bankrupt me!

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: pavane
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 07:51 AM

Blether,
Not far from us in Neath then! My wife's family are from Skewen, and many of them still live there.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Blether
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:51 PM

Re: A Wisconsin Connection
Reading the thread with interest. I live in Skewen. Visiting the valley, in 1995, near La Crosse in Wisconsin where Frank Lloyd Wright's Welsh forepeople settled and he eventually built Taliesin, we went to a small town museum with many Welsh artefacts - papers, journals, Bibles and wills. There were two graveyards with Welsh gravestones of people born in Carmarthen and Ceredigion. I think there is more there. It is a very undeveloped part of the state. The next valley over was still German speaking.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: richd
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 05:47 PM

Hello all, I'm not a fan of Eisteddfodiau myself, having sat through far too many of them in school, and think their relationship with ANY kind of tradition appart from allowing certain kinds of kids to show off is purely coincidental. (I don't wish to offend those who take part in Eistedfodiau for medical reasons, or who have a very, very deep and close relationship with a harp, or the precise enunciation of long words with many sylables.)Hymns I like, and 'Calon Lan' I think myself is about the closest thing Wales has to a protest song, having heard it sung by grown men with great passion in quite dodgy circumstances.

I realy am interested in this whole thing about 'tradition', and who decides what's in it, and what's not. Leaving aside the question of technology and what and who gets recorded, how is it possible to distinguish between a folk 'style' and a 'folk music?' Also, is it possible for the music to exist as a weird kind of cultural fossil after the society that produced it has ceased to exist in any meaningful form?

I suppose at the back of my mind I have the idea that a living tradition consists of something like: 1. The things your mam sang to you when you were scared or had a toothache. 2.The things you sing to your children when they can't go to sleep or have toothache. 3. The things you sing to yourself when working, alone or frightened. 4. The things you, your pals and family sing when in the pub or at a wedding. 5. What you sing AFTER the funeral, with family. 6. The things you sing to bring yourself courage as a group in adversity (see 'Calon Lan' above).

There's a bit of me that feels that anything beyond this is anthropology, or entertainment, and nothing wrong with that, but that's probably just me. Best wishes all.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 12:20 PM

I have been reading the thread with interest - I live in Chicago, am learning Welsh and enjoying learning Welsh songs - favorites: Lleucu Llwyd, Miliwn (Tudur Huws Jones), a Yr Mynydd (Cajuns Dembo's version of Steve Earle's song) - my band, Hwp-la, did these at our recent Welshfest.
I enjoy Frank Hennessy's show - but there should be a Radio Cymru folk/acoustic music show - John ac Alun and Linda Healy play some, but not enough - the great folk music radio shows in the US, like Folkscene, Midnight Special, and Oscar Brand - could be replicated in Wales, the best, of course, would be a Radio Cymry version of Prairie Home!!
I also was interested in Sian's reference to the Chicago Welsh hymn, Blodwyn. The hymn originally had Welsh words, but, as fewer in Chicago spoke Welsh, my cousin, E. Arthur Jones, wrote English words - a great hymn that is sung at our Chicago gymanfau with great gusto and hwyl.
Perhaps Trac could start a blog and post some of the old songs that are no longer in print.
For recent recordings, I recommend Tudur Huws Jones' Dal i Drio and Dwy Daith from Canjuns Dembo, and all the Plethyn cd's!
Chris

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: pavane
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 03:15 AM

I agree with Sian that, from my limited experience, the Eisteddfod judges tend to mark down anything which is outside their own experience, as 'Not Welsh'.
This means that any newly-unearthed traditional tune or song, however authentic, is penalised, and everyone ends up with the SAME songs and tunes.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:48 PM

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 10:02 AM

Interesting, Snuffy. I shall take a look.

Punkfolkrocker, various people have looked into the cultural practices of the Patagonian group, including the boys in Ar Log (above) who, if memory serves, did a tv programme from there. The only thing that I remember from it is that there was one little tune, Lisa Fach, that they found still sung which was no longer known in Wales, although it once was. It wasn't anything very old, though. The words were by Ceiriog and I shouldn't think the tune was much older. Ar Log did record it on one of their later albums.

The Welsh settlement there was mid 19th C and led by a minister so they would have left at a time when religious music was the big thing and most of the older stuff would have already been 'in print' in the collections of the 1700s and 1800s. Of course, hymnology is a field worth looking at in the context of folk tradition. I don't know much about Patagonia, but the North American Welsh community is interesting in terms of the paths the hymnology took. A lot of hymns in the current Welsh North American hymnbook are considered to have extremely old-fashioned words by native Welsh standards - Victorian. Also, there were hymn writers writing new Welsh hymns in N.Am. which made it big 'back home' (Y Milwr Bychain, Maesgwyn) and at least one which only became known in Wales fairly recently (Blodwen) although sung with verve throughout Welsh communities in Canada and the USA.

Examining older Welsh American hymn books is interesting as you can trace how the ex-pat community developes and changes its repertoire to something more 'American' over time.

Maybe the same can be done in Patagonia.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 09:47 AM

If you are looking for older recordings, America may be a fruitful place: The Wisconsin Folksong Collection has field recordings form the 1930s and 1940s in many languages, reflecting the cultures that immigrants brought with them. All the singers were born in the 19th century - one as far back as 1858 - definitely not "revival" :-)

There are 16 Welsh language recordings there, and there may also be some songs in English sung by Welsh immigrants to Wisconsin.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:07 AM

my S.Welsh mrs is still curious if anyone knows anything about
any possibilitly of older pre mid 19th century music traditions
existing in the remaining music of Patagonian Welsh community..

maybe in the same way that some older immigrant songs & tunes have survived in a 'purer' form in isolated areas of rural America,
whereas the same old songs have 'evolved' and become more 'diluted'
in the lands of origin ?

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 05:42 AM

I used to support the Eisteddfod, but I was ex-pat Welsh (in Canada) at the time and ex-pats tend to perceive all things in the Old Country as A Good Thing. (I bet this holds true for most immigrant communities, particularly the 2nd/3rd/4th generations.)

I am now less and less supportive. The Eisteddfod is a traditional *structure*. (Like a Male Voice Choir) It is not set up to support traditional arts. Actually, the opposite. Even in a very rural 'national' like Meifod (2003) and even being very generous in defining 'traditional' only about 20% of all competitions had anything to do with traditional arts (music, literature, craft - the whole caboodle). And don't get me started on competition in general!

Maybe there's nothing wrong with competition at some level, but it seems to have taken a strangle hold on music here. And the Eisteddfod does not promote good musicianship. It promotes people with musical skills who know how to conform to what the adjudicators are looking for. Occasionally you get a really gifted person like Bryn Terfel or Ioan Griffiths who rise above the ordinary but ...

Oh look. You've got me started. What really burns me is that, for years, the Arts Council didn't fund traditional arts because 'we fund that through the Eisteddfod'. Fortunately that has changed / is changing.

Oh - and the above are my personal views and not *necessarily* those of my employer!

sian

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 05:10 AM

So where does the Eisteddfodd fit in all this discussion? What is all about and what is it's purpose? What is its agenda?
Just curious.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 04:49 AM

Well, the quote above refers, if memory serves, to the large number of blind harpers - and I imagine this applies to other instruments as well. I don't think it relates to the question of fragmentation.

I don't think I actually responded to that point above, unless you mean 'fragmented' in the sense of broken tradition, in which case I did. The harp had its downturns but it has had an unbroken line of players. The Roberts clan (Cambrian Minstrels - Welsh gypsy harpers) territory would have stretched down to Merthyr and there's quite a lot known about them. Seems to me that someone recently told me that one of the 'lineage' was still playing the harp (but my memory is swiss-cheesy at times so I wouldn't swear to it).

If you mean fragmented in terms of regionalized, I'll agree with you, although I don't know how much of that can be proven for instrumental - particularly harp, fiddle or crwth - music. The available manuscripts are often of 'jobbing musicians'; regardless of where they were based, they travelled for a living and their repertoire was made up of both old and 'new fangled' tunes which their audiences wanted to hear, sing or dance to. So they aren't 'regional', even the older ones. Whether an instrumentalist like Cass Meurig, Robin Huw Bowen or 'other' would be able to shed more light, I don't know.

There certainly are very interesting regional variations in song, which is part of the work I am currently doing in Pembrokeshire and down in the South East (of Wales). Most of the published collections of songs in the last 25 years have made a point of giving historical background which helps us understand the music from a geographic point of view.

I obviously live in West Wales and I've never had any problem with St Fagans although I do agree that being where it is makes individual research for most of us a problem. (An international and cross-sectoral problem of locating all the resources in the capital city which is usually inaccessible to most citizens.) The project we are doing in Pembrokeshire came about to give us a mechanism for taking the local songs which are on the museum tapes and re-introducing them into the communities from which they came. "Releasing into the wild". The curators and being very supportive.

siân

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: richd
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:08 PM

My argument is that inevitably the tradition in Wales is fragmented. I would like to quote from the Merthyr Guardian of 1850: "It is a frequent practice of men disabled.. to learn to play the harp; by which means they earn precarious subsistence, by playing at public houses and merry-makings wherever they can find employment. I have seen men recently mutilated practicing the harp for this purpose". I I wonder what they played, and regret we'll never know, because a harp tradition in Merthyr Tydfil must have been something to hear! Maybe it partly depends on how you define 'tradition' and how you stand in relation to constructions of Welshness. I will follow up on the technology stuff about recording, and wonder why the range of voices we are offered is so small. For many people in/of Wales their relationship with St Fagans is deeply, deeply problematical. Good wishes to you.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Surreysinger
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:19 PM

>>Surreysinger, I've been contacted by the SEFAN organizer and have made a few suggestions

Sian - I suspect that it wasn't the SEFAN organiser you contacted but the organiser of the Aberystwyth conference?? I actually meant that I had received the information via an email circulated by the South East Folk Arts Network to its members - hope I didn't mislead you ??

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM

Hmm. Don't really know. I'll ask around. I was in a lecture given by Robin Huw Bowen about NR years ago when he said that he never managed to speak about her without someone coming up to him afterwards and saying they were related to her. Whereupon I went up to him and said that I was related to NR. Which I am, but from a WAY far off! Can't even remember how.

sian

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: MARINER
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:43 PM

Sian, For the sake of accuracy were the Roberts brothers not nephews of "The infamous Nanci Richards"?

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:30 PM

I shouldn't have left it so long without replying, as there are a lot of points I now need to contribute to ... !

First, Bob: I'm sorry if I sounded a bit 'short' in a previous post. There are a lot of 'statements' about Welsh music which are accepted without a question but are pretty superficial, and sometimes I don't have the energy to put the other point of view, or the fuller point of view. Anyhow, sorry.

I also have a problem with the concept of 'revival' because, although the Welsh did participate in that whole scene with vim and vigour, there was a lot of unbroken tradition going on here. Jerry mentions Ar Log; the Roberts brothers were two of the founders (Gwyndaf and Dafydd?) and they had learned their songs in the community, and their harp playing from the infamous Nancy Richards, who was a full blown 'source musician' or 'tradition bearer'. Apart from the Robertses, she also taught Robin Huw Bowen (currently on tour in the USA), and Robin was also taught by Eldra Jarmain, a gypsy harper, so another side of the Welsh tradition. So, are Gwyndaf, Dafydd and Robin 'revivalists'? I wouldn't say so.

Similarly, Arfon Gwilym is a singer who was a member of Cilmeri in the '70s and might be thought of as a 'revivalist'. But Arfon is from a long line of singers from the Bala area and although he has competed in the Eisteddfodau, he's never 'gone over to the dark side' of pseudo classical song styling.

Ah, and 'song styling': I hate what a lot of Welsh singers (mostly in the Eisteddfod tradition) do to lovely little innocent songs. That is, try to turn them into Art Songs. Yuk. BUT you can err on the other side too. Something isn't 'more authentic' if it sounds hoarse and nasal. I asked an expert friend of mine about 'authentic' Welsh sound and she felt that the Welsh voice had a very lyrical quality and clear sound. She thought that Heather Jones or even Mary Hopkins were good examples of female singers.

Siwsi George was great and stayed true to her own accent. I don't think I'd say that she was 'less' authentic just because she was one generation along from the people from whom she learned her songs. One of her mentors recorded a huge amount of his repetoire in the 60s and 4 LPs are now available on one 2CD set: "Mered: 50 traditional Welsh folk-songs" You may listen to this and think, "that's not what we mean" but Mered is authentic, grass-roots (although he eventually earned a PhD and was head of Lt. Ents at BBC Wales at one point) and a real tradition bearer. Sorry, but he has a sweet, soft voice and is still alive so maybe doesn't meet the criteria ... Oh - he lived in Mass. while working on his PhD and some of this stuff is available thanks to the Moe Asch network that sought out such music.

Surreysinger, I've been contacted by the SEFAN organizer and have made a few suggestions. One fear I expressed is what happens when professional performers 'take an interest' in traditional community rites. One problem is that they only get interested because it's their newest obsession, not because they have a deep interest in the community. And then the community is given to think that it can only be done 'right' by professionals so stop doing it themselves. The commoditization of culture. sigh.

RichD, there are a lot of recordings of source singers but most are only available to hear if you go to the Folk Museum in St Fagan's, Mon - Fri. As it happens, I was there Friday making lists of songs from Pembrokeshire for a project we're doing down there; we got as far as "M" in the file cards and have about 30 tracks which we need to listen to so far. I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I think Dr Mary Davies was the first person to use the phonograph to make field recordings in Britain, and that, in Wales. She new Thomas Edison and he sent her one. Must have scared the crofters witless when this Grande Dame showed up in their cottages demanding that they sing into the machine ...

St Fagans HAS put out 2 recordings, which are now available on one combined CD from Sain: PLYGAIN CAROL SINGING / STABLE-LOFFT SONGS
CAROLAU PLYGAIN / CANEUON LLOFFT STABAL (SCD2389) This is just the sort of thing that I think most of you mean by 'traditional' as opposed to 'revival'.

Then again, there are CDs of singers who, since the '70s maybe, would be considered embarassingly old fashioned and yet should be seen as part of the continuum. I would bet, too, that 'folkies' would disapprove of their repetoire: old chestnuts, sentimental stuff, 'Mothers Bible' lyrics, etc. with the occasional hymn and folk song thrown in.

In that category, I would suggest Bob Roberts Tairfelin, Richie Thomas (I think there's a CD, "Hen Rebel fel Fi") or Jac a Wil (two brothers).

A word about instrumental: there's the unbroken tradition of harp playing APART from the classical (although the classicists wouldn't think the folk was 'important') and you can access that for starters with the CD "Nancy Richards" (Sain SCD2382) and move it forward through artists like Robin Huw Bowen, Llio Silyn and Rhes Ganol. There are definitely 'broken' traditions which are being recreated, and in this category you get bagpipes and hornpipes (ref: anything by Ceri Rhys Matthews) and crwth (ref: anything by Cass Meurig or Bragod). Bragod put out an impressive CD/booklet a couple of years ago, "Kaingk" (www.bragod.com), which elaborates on Bob Evans' research on the crwth. I must say that I, and others, find Bob's ideas to be absolutely delightful, but off-base. Still, it 'informs the debate', as the academics might put it.

I've lost track. Not sure if I'm making sense now. So I'm finishing with that. There are enough names above for you to be getting on with. And I'm just pleased that we still have music going on in Wales which traces back a very long long way.

sian

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Fidjit
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM

I can sing, "The Cruel Sister", in Norwegian! At Miskin, for you, if I get the chance.

P'raps we should have a, "Foreign Language Song Workshop".

Ah! But, then being in Wales, English would be included.

Chas

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,RICHD
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 02:46 PM

As far as I can tell, very little recording of source singers took place in Wales. There was lots of transcription of tunes and airs, but little interest in the performance of songs by living singers. By the time relativly cheap portable recording became available and there was an interst in it much of the oral tradition seems to have died. There are still some traditions of course- Plygain in north Powys and parts of Pembrokeshire for example. It might also be worth remembering that much of Wales doesn't just have the one tradition. In the area where I am from there are people belonging to longstanding Irish, English, Chinese and Italian communites each with their own tradition, along with people who would identify themeselves with a Welsh or English language tradition. Add to this early industrialisation and a non-native middle class and its possible to see how a continuos tradition could be repeatedly fractured and not survive in an accessable form. Given that the early stages of industrialisation were peopled by arivals from rural Wales this would probably also weaken the rural traditon as well. For these reasons I think that the idea of a single unified tradition of Welsh folk music is problematical, and would rather think of the tradition as being one of individuals and communities continuously remaking and recreating 'tradition' as needed in response to changing social and economic conditions. Long live revival! So there! I would still like to know what's in the archives in St Fagans.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:31 PM

Sian, West wales: you listed a few things in response to my request for details of any Welsh traditional recordings, aprt from Phil Tanner. You said there were tons, but then proceeded to list people like Crasdant, kilbride Bros etc. I know about these, what i was looking for was traditional recordings, not revival. Can you suggest anything whatsoever we could actualy buy now and listen to? This whole discussion is very interesting, but it would be great to have some actual evidence before we tried to make up our minds.

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:04 AM

The Pontardawe Folk Festival has been a very positive force for good music in Wales during the past 25 years or so.I have managed to get to most of them and they have been excellent.The early ones ,put together on a shoestring budget were particularly groundbreaking .I think there is a need for a major rethink about the booking of performers for next year and I certainly think that there could be more music workshops and traditional music in the line up.
ifor

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: clueless don
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 11:29 AM

On 27 Mar 06 - 03:14 AM, Anahata said, in part: "We make a point of playing a few Welsh dance tunes too."

I have some interest in Welsh dance tunes, and in particular I remember Fiona Ritchie playing purportedly Welsh tunes on her Thistle and Shamrock radio show (I can't remember exactly when this was, but I have the notion that it was in the 1980's.) These tunes were by a group that Ms. Ritchie identified, but whose spelling I do not know. Phonetically, it sounded like the group was called "Alley Grogan".

Anyone heard of them?

Don

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: Surreysinger
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 10:44 AM

Just got this e-mail from SEFAN - I presume that, since it's based in Aberystwyth there ought to be some mention of Welsh performance in the whole of the symposium. Must admit I feel tempted to go,as I'd love to see the stamping ground of my college days again - that and an interesting sounding symposium as well!!


"Here We Come/Dyma Ni'n Diawad (3 June 2006)
There will be a two-day symposium on traditional and contemporary folk performances in Britain hosted by the Department of Theatre, Film and Television at the University of Wales in Aberystwyth in collaboration with the Aberystwyth Arts Centre on 2-3 June 2006. Details from [e-mail] "

Subject: RE: The folk tradition in Wales
From: GUEST,Jerry Epstein
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:27 PM

Very glad to see Bob Coltman's contribution above. Hope you are doing well, Bob. . .

I have just come from an amazing singers gathering at the northernmost point of Ireland. It was a gathering of about 150 people, a couple of guests but no "stars", just unaccompanied trad singing as far as the eye could see for three days. There was one Welsh singer that I heard on SUnday evening, sang one song, seemed to me to be a quite genuine traditional style. I do not know his name (though might be able to find out), and he only sang once.

There was a Welsh group about 25 years ago, first pointed out to me by ROy Harris, called Ar Log. I have wonderful record of theirs. It featured two brothers who played the triple harps. They also sang Welsh tradition, but I couldn't say how traditional it was stylistically.

Bob also speaks about Russian tradition being covered up by over arranging, which of course it was. But Dmitri Pokrovsky was finally able to break through the government wish to make everything into high art, got some support (I think maybe from Kruschev?) and collected absolutely amazing stuff out in the countryside. He got together an ensemble of singers who did the stuff in unabashedly powerful style. Arranged somewhat vocally, though this may have been authentic tradition, it bore all the earmarks of the real thing and was quite overwhelming. Definitely not "pop-ized". I have two recordings.

The place where therewas virtually a total wipe-out of real traditional forms, to the best of my knowledge, was Germany. There is no doubt that there was a real ruiral singing tradition 200 or 300 years ago, but classical music (Mozart and the like) became so popular throughout the country, that the older forms seem to have vanished except for some very pale remnants that kids would learn in school.

Jerry Epstein