BS: Condi go home

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:24 PM

Thanks for the correction, Amos. Perhaps my old brain cells have confused Patrick Henry with some other martyr of the American Revolution. Which one would it be, I wonder? Either that, or they taught me wrong about him when I was in school in New York State back in the 60's, because I recall a textbook which showed him about to be hanged by the British.

Anyway, my point remains the same, whether or not I mistook the name, whether or not the British killed him or he died in bed.

When radicals oppose someone in a war (on either side) they are accused of being traitors by those on the opposite side of the debate, but they are NOT traitors to their own conscience! And what use is a man if he be traitor to his own conscience? When the war ends (depending on who wins it) they may suddenly and miraculously be publicly transformed from traitors into "patriots" and heroes...or the opposite way around.

Such is the capriciousness of human judgement on such matters.

In any case, not one of them imagines himself to be a traitor. Not one. They all do what they do because they believe it is the right thing to do at the time. Jane Fonda and Patrick Henry and Benedict Arnold and George Washington were all much the same in that respect, regardless of which side they chose to back at the time. They all did what they truly thought was the right thing to do. The right moral thing. The right logical thing. The right thing for humanity.

That most people cannot see this because of their own partisan prejudice, and must demonize others and call them "traitor" only shows me how little rational thinking most people are ever prepared to do at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:32 AM

Little Hawk,

Patrick died of old age, years after the English had gone home to England or become Americans. He was not put to death, except by the act of living it.

One account:

"George Washington persuaded Patrick Henry to become a candidate for the state legislature in 1799. The foundations of the young republic were endangered by the rumblings of men who argued that any state has the power to nullify acts of the Federal Government. Bowed with age and his health deteriorating, Henry delivered his last public oration. It was an inspirational, non-partisan, patriotic appeal for unity to preserve the nation. Historian Henry Adams declared that nothing in Henry's life was more noble than his last public act.

Three months later, on June 6, 1799, death came to Patrick Henry. The "Voice of the Revolution" was silenced forever."

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 10:47 AM

The USA is riding high right now, as Rome once did, as the British once did, as the Germans once did. In such times a conquering empire will always have its enthusiastic supporters (mostly on the home turf). That's natural. Those supporters will accuse people who oppose the empire's self-interest of being malcontents, traitors, and varous other things like that. It's strictly a subjective point of view. A traitor from one point of view is a patriot from another. It always has been that way, and it always shall be.

Patrick Henry was a traitor to England, the established power of its time, and a patriot to the revolutionaries who opposed the establishment. Just like Jane Fonda! (grin)

The only reason you conservatives don't like Jane Fonda is....you think the way the English did who executed Patrick Henry. You support the powers that be around you, and are opposed to anyone who questions them.

Well, like the English who executed Patrick Henry, you will find in time that the establishment you now consider the answer to mankind's problems was just another passing phase in the sorrows and tribulations of humanity, and was not the answer after all, but a major part of the problem.

Political opinions, anyway, are as much an accident of birth as anything else. Early childhood influences usually set the way you look at political things pretty well for the rest of your life. There's only one person in 10,000 out there that's totally unbiased and capable of complete objectivity, and I wouldn't claim to be, that's for sure.

Condoleeza is a former oil company career person, is she not? (Like many other key people in the Bush administration.) Well, these wars are about oil and corporate financial considerations, not about exporting an enlightened form of democracy to anyone. But that doesn't mean that Condi doesn't believe in a good deal of what she says. She may indeed believe almost all of it. I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 08:29 AM

Bush and Rice delivered Shock and Awe to the people of Iraq.Over 100,000 Iraqi civilians including many women and children have been slaughtered in the bombing,the shelling,the use of white phospherous and napalm,the depleted uranium shelling and the sniper firing.
The mainstream press has overwhelmingly been supportive of Bush and the neocons [ after all the people who own the press belong to the same social class as the neocons,the generals and the corporate bosses ].
The warhawks have had it easy from the press and that is all the more reason for the anti war campaigners to confront these murderers wherever we can. Take a look at the terrible photographs of the victims of Shock and Awe ..they are truely shocking and awful.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:58 AM

Condi certainly represents the Hawkish face of the current administration. During her time as National Security Advisor she was an outspoken proponent of the war with Iraq, even penning an article in the New York Times about WMDs and the Iraqi declaration to the UN entitled Why we know Iraq is lying. Of course, we do know now who was lying.

As tim has pointed out, the obviously highly intelligent and talented Ms. Rice is one of the architects of America's current foriegn policies that has lead to the rest of the world recognising them as a morally bankrupt, imperialist, belligerent player on the world stage, intent on protecting their own interests, regardless of consequnce.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 06:35 AM

I am with Condi! Whike I may not agree 100%, she is doing something and I just ignore the malcontents.

Sorry about the illnesses suffered by others, however, that is the least admirable way to approach a debate

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 05:02 AM

Spot on Tim - every American should read your post to understand how clearly wrong US foreign policy is, and how naively self-centred is their approach to any one who does things differently from them.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

Condoleeza,who has had a super oil tanker named after her is a leading member of the neo cons who are intent on delivering more oil wars across the world starting with the Middle East and Central Asia.Iraq was never about democracy ,it was always about oila nd the US stategic and economic control of the region.
And there are two Americas.One America is corporate and military.It is the USA slaughtered thousands in Chile in Sept 1973 ,killed a million vietnamese peasants in the 160s and 1970s and gave that country agent orange,My Lai and saturation bombing.It is an America that is anti trade union and racist and fantastically unequal in terms of wealth and health.
There is another America...the America of the civil rights movement,of Martin Luther King and the anti Vietnam war campaigns...it is the America of Pete Seeger [no supertanker named after him!] and the trade union struggles...it is the America of the poor immigrant and the low paid worker...it is the America of Walt Whitman and Noam Chomsky...
Condoleeza's America is baying for blood ..the other America I can still hear singing!!
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:53 AM

Excellent post Tim.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: John O'L
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:45 AM

Quite a mouthful Tim. Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:31 AM

Good post Tim...

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: mandotim
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:44 AM

I'm in the UK, and I'm listening closely to what this obviously talented woman has had to say. I have no quarrel with the messenger, but the message (which she certainly didn't write herself, as she has a team of speechwriters with her)is the real problem. The gist of it seems to be that America perceives that their particular and peculiar version of Western Liberal Democracy, as justified by fundamentalist Christianity is the only acceptable form of governance for any nation state, ever, anywhere in the world. Any alternative approaches are to be either despised or pitied, and where possible subverted or overthrown. There is simply no recognition that other forms of government predated the formation of the USA, and some of them work a good deal better for their people and their society at any given time. All societies and systems of government go through cycles of rise and decline; the trick is to adapt and change the mode of governance to suit the times and the world environment. America is prosperous and powerful at the moment; so was Rome, and it signally failed to accommodate to changing times. (Gibbon's classic 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'for those who are interested)

For me, this lack of tolerance is the first sign of America's decline as an influence for good in the world. I regret that, as I recognise the enormous good she has done, and the potential for more. America at the moment (perhaps I mean 'the American Government') is making no real effort to understand the world as it is, rather than how it would like the world to be; small wonder that this attitude is so resented in so many quarters.
Tim from Bit on the Side

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:26 PM

I know she's tough, Martin, and I respect that. I just don't agree with her administration's foreign policy, that's all. And I don't find her personally very appealing, but that's just a question of individual taste, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:22 PM

3?
Because I live & have lived my life as a decent person who has walked with death on his should since childhood & still have nothing but an incredile love for my life & the life of all others. My 9 lives haven't been used up yet. You should ever live to be so lucky.
Someone up there must love me.

I paid all my working life into what's now paying me back.

Stop Bashing America? America can do better, but it takes people to speak first before this country can heal itself. It is not bashing, it is a form protest, which if you follow Condi's lead, you would listen to more closely & not (at least in public) try to smother it.
The only credit that I can give her is that she's very smart for a bloodsucker.

Express your opinion, do not try to step on someone else's

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:07 PM

Well, Finn, please refrain from bashing America, which is probably paying most of your bills now. How did you mange 3 liver transplants when some people can't even get one? Know some important people?

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:04 PM

Honetly, LH she already is a great leader. Tough as nails and doesn't take shit from anyone. I can't picture her crying and blubbering over anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:03 PM

MG.
You may want to know that I was never a drinker & I've recently received a 3rd liver transplant so I'm now considered totally disabled after working construction for 35 yrs. All in all I live a very good life & want to see others enjoy the same. That won't happen with people like Condi & Company in control. In the future please refrain from personally attacking me, as you don't know me at all.
Thank You
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:58 PM

I love her. She's the first snake-woman ever to become Secretary of State. Has anyone else noticed? She looks very similar to a cobra when she frowns. Nerves of steel? Hell, yeah! I would not want to end up in a lifeboat with her and one remaining bottle of water, lemme tell ya. ;-P

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:48 PM

You are an American with too much time on your hands, Finn. Time for another whiskey, perhaps? Looked for work lately?

She is wanted here. Perhaps to be the next President.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 09:37 PM

Bash America! I'm American, keep the Bloodsucker from coming home, she's not wanted here, either. Maybe while she's abroad she can be held & tried by an international court & tried for war crimes & crimes against humanity. Of course, unless there's anyone that still thinks that this war is still a good fight.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: tarheel
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:40 PM

AMEN to that, martin gibson!!!
i happen to like Condi!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 08:22 PM

Great work, Condi. I admire your nerves of steel.

And I second that, Doug R. This thread is started by someone who just likes to bash America for the sake of it. It's boring and has zero impact on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 10:28 AM

you mean we HAVE to take her back?

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: John O'L
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 07:04 AM

Good on you Richard. I nearly started a thread like this one when she was in Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:38 AM

Jack Straw has now acknowledged that the British Government's initial claim that there were 4000 holes in Blackburn,Lancashire may have been based on flawed intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: Condi go home
From: GUEST,Doug
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:07 AM

How childish you are.
Please grow up.

Big D.

Subject: BS: Condi go home
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 05:02 AM

Bradford Mosques refuse to let Condi tour them. Good for them say I. Shame those officially in charge didn't have the bottle to tell her outright to take her bloodsoaked hands away but had to hide behind alleged concern for her safety at the hands of those who did have the bottle to say it out loud.