BS: The need to win

Subject: BS: The need to win
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 08:29 PM

The need to win can be a deep need. it can help people move out of a dark place. It can be a powerful determination to survive. it can also overtake the reason for doing something and become an end in itself.

In debating, the need to win can overcome the pleasure in examining views.

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets-
He is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed. But the prize
Divides him. He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -
And the need to win
Drains him of power.


from The Way of Chuang Tzu [xix,4], Thomas Merton Translation

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 08:48 PM

"Oh hear the sad tale of Jonathon Gray,
Who died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along-
But he's just as dead as if he'd been dead wrong."

well, 'almost' relevant.

I knew a lady once who was very smart & clever and, in my opinion, usually right in disputes....but she had no idea how to be right. She stuck her chin out and dared anyone to challenge her...so naturally they did, which angered her so much she sputtered and fumed and did a lousy job of presenting her point.


Remember the old definition of a diplomat?

"A man who can tell you to go to Hell and have you looking forward to the trip!"

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM

I don't need to win; I just want to come out a bit ahead.

There's a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:01 PM

Like the guy who explained to his friend why he was putting on running shoes to escape the bear coming up the mountain toward them?

"I don't need to outrun the bear...I just need to outrun YOU!"

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM

Think about it: I'm better off winning $20 consistently than a thousand all at once but losing all the time before and after it.

Yeah, Bill, pretty much like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: number 6
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

Winning is to me is to learn, to enrich myself .... and sometimes I win by losing.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

Winning suggests to me 'playing a Game' and I am not much of a Game player:)
I do however have one quote that I like a lot,

by Mahatma Gandhi
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:15 PM

Mahatma was a wise old bird.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:17 PM

Oh, by the way -- I'm talking in general terms. I'm not really much of a "game person."

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:17 PM

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.   But the opposite of a profound truth may be another profound truth.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:21 PM

and..

Walk beside me
Don't walk in front of me
I may not follow
Don't walk behind me
I may not lead
Walk beside me
And just be my friend

(Albert Camus)

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

I always found it more fun to play ping pong and basketball without keeping score...reason being: it's more fun, it's more relaxing, and the playmaking is far more creative, because you try out more risky stuff to see what may happen, and you don't worry about losing a point when you do it. The "winning" obsession, as far as I'm concerned, is the classic means of ruining a sport or pastime when it's taken too far...and it frequently is.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

Wise words Albert. Thanks for sharing them Freda.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: khandu
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:29 PM

"The only way to win is to quit the game." (Harry Lee Wigley "Women Who Spit" 1937)

Bring out the guitars, sit down, start playing, don't try to impress me, I won't try to impress you. let's just play the song. That way we both win, because only then, do we make beautiful music.

ken

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 09:39 PM

Danged right. That's how you come out ahead, too. One of my best nights with friends involved a game of Crazy Eights that went on for over nine hours. Nobody wanted to win, we just wanted to prevent the other guy from winning so we'd gang up and figure out which card was left and then avoid that suite like the plague. Of course, there might have been some alcoholic refreshments involved, too.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Janie
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:05 PM

don't have a thing to add--but I am enjoying reading these thoughtful posts.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:16 PM

Define win...

No, I'm serious, define win...

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: GUEST,happy bloke
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:28 PM

"life is ultimatley more satisfying and rewarding in the long term
if one resists the compulsion to win,
but instead always lets the wife come first.."


or


"he who comes 2nd
is more likely to get a mug of tea and a toasted bacon sandwich
served up with a contented smile afterwards.."

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:28 PM

To achieve a Victory or To finish first in a competition or Game

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:31 PM

Sorry Happy Bloke! I forgot to hit the submit button..lol My post was an answer to Bobert's question.

I like your comments though HB.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:34 PM

It is a mental concept, Bobert, beloved to the ego. It is defined as scoring a victory over someone or something...another person, a group of people, a system, a slot machine, whatever. By scoring the victory you presumably are now in a better position, a more powerful position, than you were before. This is encouraging to the ego, because it is perpetually insecure about its position. No amount of winning will ever fully satisfy this basic insecurity, unfortunately. That's why you see winners at casinos gambling their winnings away, and military conquerors perpetually reaching one step too far in their endless search to expanding their "winnings", and achieve....what? The anser to that, they do not know.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:36 PM

I knew someone would do a better job than I did. Thanks LH. Well defined:)
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:48 PM

Hmmmmmmm?

Win = victory = finish first???

An' now fir the 64 cent question...

...like who really gives a rat's ass???

Hey, I'm not trying to be flip here but really, who the heck cares???

I got a PM tonight from a special lady who won't be coming back to Mudcat... Why???

Well,seesm that she has had enough of folks more intent on winnin' than sharin'.... Some others prolly got similar PM's an' those folks know that this lady was a class act...

Problem is that the world has become so polarized an' folks think that they have to "win" to survive....

Silly people... In the words of Mr. Clifford, "Dumb as a box of creek rocks"...

Yeah, if there is anyone who thinks they need to be the winner over this ol' hillbilly, go right ahead and put a danged "W" down if it makes ya' feel good...

Like I said, I don't give a rat's ass about it...

And mean it fir real, Honey....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 10:55 PM

Seems most of the people posting on this Thread don't give a rat's arse about winning either Bobert.
Shame if someone has gone, yet another to add to a growing list of people that have had enough
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 11:17 PM

Winning's okay, but I hate to lose so much that I seldom compete.

For instance, I can't stand gambling. I used to occasionally play low-stakes poker with friends but gave it up when I realized I was getting little pleasure from winning but a lot of pain from losing. And when I won, I always felt sorry for the losers. I never really needed the $20.00 I won from someone, but I always worried that maybe he really did need it.

Oh, I enjoy playing non-gambling card games upon occasion, but I don't really look at them as competition. When there's no money involved I actually enjoy watching other people win as much as winning myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 06 - 11:48 PM

I'll tell a little story about winning. I think that it is one of the times in my life when I learned the most about myself...and quite a lot about people!

I once took a class in a "free university" on something like 'self knowlege'...can't remember what it was called, but it was sorta like what they used to call an encounter group.

The 'facilitator' would lead a discussion or assign a project for the group to share...once it was "draw a picture of your family" that tells something...and then explain it to the others. Not very enlightening.

But then, one night we played a game. The class was divided into 3 groups, and we sat in those groups on the floor. The teacher/facilitator took a basket of poker chips of 4 colors and went around, giving each person a small handful, not letting anyone else see how many or what color. Then he explained that each chip was worth 'points'...I think 10 for blue, 5 for red, 3 for yellow, and 1 for white. Also, having several of one color (4 or 5) doubled the value of the group)..At his signal, we were to get up and move about the room and find someone to make a deal with...we were to hold hands..(the one without the chips) and were not allowed to let go until we had conducted some sort of trade...2 yellow for one blue...etc...

When everyone had finished, we went back to 'our' group and took score, adding up the total for the group. Well, it seems group 'A' was quite a bit ahead, my group, 'B' was in the middle, and 'C' was far behind. Now, said the teacher, since group C had the least, they could propose a change in the rules....but since A was ahead, they had veto power over the proposed change.....of course, C suggested something like reversing the value for blue & white, or allowing the 'poor' group to annex players from the 'rich' group...and of course, the rich group immediately vetoed this!

So, we went to a 2nd round, with one guy in group A whispering plans to his team on how to get an even bigger share of the booty and generally acting like an executive at Enron!

I looked at all this, and when a girl took my hand and asked what I had to trade, I said "I'd like to give you all my chips!" She looked at me VERY strangely, but said "Sure!!"...and I went and sat down by the wall and watched.

Naturally, at the end of round two, group A had 75% of all the chips, and C was getting nowhere.

Group C was complaining and wanting to have more say in rules changes, but it was obviously not gonna work, so the teacher explained.

"If it was NOT obvious", he said, "I stacked the deck and gave group A a big advantage...and then gave them almost unlimited power to keep and extend that advantage" The one thing he noted that was a bit unusual was that there were 'leftover' chips in the basket at one side, and no one tried to steal them, as he said usually happened when he did this game....He did say that my spotting the rigged, unfair game and quitting was quite unusual, and that most players usually struggled to 'win', whether they were leading or behind...even though there was no particular purpose to winning! The kid who was such a Type A personality was a teensy bit embarrassed, but not really contrite...and I suppose he is an executive somehwere now.

So...does all this seem familar in any way? I'm not sure why I tumbled to it all...nor exactly sure why I refused to play when I saw I couldn't win....but none of the 'rules' said I MUST play...so....

Anyway, I left that class with some appreciation of how people deal with each other, and how arbitrary some value systems are....and 'winning' has never been too important to me since. Making sense and achieving REAL cooperation and sharing when you have to look someone in the eye and make a deal has always seemed like a better goal.

Now YOU can set up some group and pull this on them and see if your results differ......

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:28 AM

There's nothing wrong with playing to win; but in sports, finance, and politics (which includes religion), everyone forgets what winning is about, and starts concentrating on making the other guy LOSE.

I don't find it too interesting to play that kind of game, but sometimes it seems some people just can't play any other way.

Maybe the difference is just too subtle for them?

John

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:33 AM

you got it, John.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:58 AM

Good stuff, John and Bill.

The best system and the best group are those organized so that everyone wins. That is sanity in its highest form. When that system is practiced worldwide we'll have peace on Earth.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:59 AM

BWL and BillD, you're men after my own heart. I don't care for gambling. One brief visit to Las Vegas was enough to convince me that there are people who can use my money much more than professional gamblers and corporations that have the odds stacked against me to begin with. And I don't care for those kind of contrived games Bill described. I sat out one of those in a "retreat" some years back when we were supposed to be getting in touch with our biases and learning teamwork, because I knew the game and didn't like the way it was meant to "teach" by involving an outcome that made people feel bad about themselves.

The destination may be interesting, but it is the trip that makes it worthwhile. The game has to be a good one for it to interest me in the first place. I concocted a version of Scrabble that I still play with my kids on occasion. I designed it so they'd enjoy playing together by letting them gang up against me (they pooled their letters and took turns putting out words as long as they could manage). Rude words, proper nouns, everything was allowed, including playing off of the edge of the board. We have a double set of letters we use for this game.

As we play the kids get closer together. After a while they sit with their heads together and rearrange letters amid gales of laughter as they look at me and speculate if I'll react to some really naughty word they've come up with. They earn extra points for courtesy, such as offering to bring back a glass of water for others when they get up for themselves, and they have lost points for non-cooperation, but that doesn't happen often. I pay for points to the winning team if they win, a penny a point, so I'm not out a lot, but it was one more incentive to play the game when they were small. The effect of this game is noticable for several days after we've played.

My cousin gave me this idea, because her daughters, who are both grown and in their own careers and lives now, are the best of friends. My cousin worked hard to arrange this kind of love and respect and enjoyment, and told me about her plan long before I had my own children to do the same with. I have a relatively peaceful household with two teenagers. We're still on that journey, the game is afoot. Who cares about "winning" if it means one person defeats another?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 12:59 AM

When you define a game as having a zero-sum, in which one gains in proportion to another's losing, you are already losing.

Winning is very healthy, but it does not actually involve making others wrong or conquering.

The obsession to be right and to make others wrong is the big hurdle that has to be overcome before winning across the boards can actually happen.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:03 AM

what a fantastic post, SRS. that's a Scrabble I'd like to play!

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: number 6
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 01:15 AM

"Well,seesm that she has had enough of folks more intent on winnin' than sharin'.... Some others prolly got similar PM's an' those folks know that this lady was a class act...

Problem is that the world has become so polarized an' folks think that they have to "win" to survive...."

As I said in my post winning is enriching oneself either through sharing, albiet knowledge, music, or a good laff, .... I wanna make sure if I win, we all win .... because whether we want to admit it or not we're all in this together .... correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes ... the Cat did lose a class act Bobert.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 03:58 AM

I bet I'm less competitive than any three of you.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 04:26 AM

the need to win...
if you need to know any more about it, witness the ding dong going on on my Errol Flynn thread.

can't drag them apart!

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: clairerise
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 05:30 AM

I'm a terrible loser, and when i win i find it so unfulfilling i think i've lost

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:04 AM

Our dance side takes part in two competitive festivals each year. We are up against the same other sides year after year, and at least half our dancers could equally well be dancing for another side there.

There is very little competitiveness. It's simply a chance to show how well you can do, and to steal other people's choregraphy. The competition is simply there to provide an excuse for a get-together of lots of dancers who are normally seperated by hundreds of miles, and for people to disagree with the judges, not about where their team came, but rather wondering why X won, and not Y.

The post competition ball is also fairly amazing, with 200 or so very good dancers filling the room. It's nice, being able to just get up for any dance without thinking about, as even if you have never heard of it, half your set could dance it blindfold.




I like happy blokes' comments too.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:38 AM

When I said earlier that I only like to come out a little ahead, that's what I meant. If I went into a poker game (which I gave up years and years ago) I didn't care if I won or lost, just that I broke even or better, came out with slightly more than I went in with. I don't need the "big prize" -- I'll settle for sixth place or, in some cases, just finishing the race at all.

I watched some of the Winter Olympics, and could only think, "Even those who got a place as a third assistant alternate on one of those squads has a reason to be proud."

The so-called "reality tv shows", where survival is posited as being "the last on the island" are true crocks of...dung. TRUE survival for a group means just the opposite. Group survival truly means cooperating towards a common goal, whether it's feeding the group or finding your way out of a bad spot.

Sometimes simple survival is winning the big pot or grabbing the brass ring. And we too often forget that when the group wins, we win.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Alba
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 10:21 AM

Touché Monsieur Rapaire :)

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:34 PM

Shambles and Teribus, The Terrible Twins of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 09:48 PM

So who wins the competition for "least competitive Mudcatter"?

( ...my money's on Rapaire)

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 10:34 PM

(should have included this in my previous post)

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Apr 06 - 11:55 PM

I'll add jacqui c to that list, Carol!

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 11:45 AM

Well, let Jacqui have it. I'd have to decline anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 12:28 PM

I've never quite understood why but in the game of Monopoly I only like it until all the properties are bought. After that it gets intent and serious. At that point I want to bow out. If something is not fun there is no point in doing it.

Kind of like when I switched to drinking wine rather than hard liquor. I decided that if I didn't like the taste there was no point in drinking.

And I don't gamble. Mostly because it tightens my stomach unpleasantly. That is true even if I'm only watching and not in the game myself.

But the need to win is still in me. I notice it most in an argument or debate, either one. I have finally got to the point of realizing that I CAN walk away, that I don't HAVE to be proved right, but it doesn't come naturally to me. I'm working on it.

We are complex critters, aren't we.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 12:57 PM

The need to compete and 'win' is closely linked to the struggle to survive and reproduce.....our modern dilemma is that we usually don't need to overcome someone else in order to have what we need, but the instincts (fueled by testosterone often) are still pretty active.

I guess it would not be good to have it totally disappear, but I can sure think of times when I'd like to see some better use and control!

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 02:16 PM

Saw a game of musical chairs once that was presented by a fellow who had multiple 'disabilities'. Was part of an inclusive education seminar. Anyway, the object of the game--in the final analysis--was to make sure that everyone had a place to sit and be part of the group.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: heric
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 02:29 PM

That's cool. The opposite of a spelling bee, too. My kid was selected to represent her school. What a sick and twisted game. All you can do is try not to fuck up until the judges tell you you fucked up (something silly.) No helping others. No satisfaction of e.g. making a well aimed goal.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 03:47 PM

I always liked the idea of educational games like spelling bees and such...(I was on a 'local' version of the "Quiz Kids" over 50 years ago)...but now I see kids under obvious stress to 'win' once the prizes get pretty big, and tears and frustration. Perhaps there are ways to 'win a prize' that does no involve such obvious public losing for the others? Wouldn't make much of TV event, but they have other ways to sell their soap.

Subject: RE: BS: The need to win
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 06 - 04:09 PM

If the name of the game with spelling bees is to teach spelling, team efforst work well. Teacher can choose the teams so that they include the kids who spell well and others who don't. Give each team the list of words that will be 'tested', and the deal is that everyone on the team has to agree as to how the word is spelled prior ot its oral voicing. I tend to choose the kid who can't spell worth a darn to be the spokesperson. That way the child sees the word, hears the word, spells the word.

There are many ways to make 'inclusive education' work effectively. Nor does inclusion mean that the kids who are way ahead of their peers intellectually have to be held back so that the class progresses as a homogeneous group. They can be given additional responsibilities or progressively more 'important' roles to play.