BS: deejavu...1973

Subject: BS: deejavu...1973
From: tarheel
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:30 AM

i do not know how many of you were old enough to remember the "energy crisis"in the U.S.,in 1973...
I'm assuming most folks in here remember it as many of you were probably still teenagers,etc..
anyway the OPEC nations got together and began limiting the amount of crude oil being shipped out to the other nations of the world!
and they were threatning to raise the price of a barrel of crude oil!
can you believe ,as a working man with a family then,that we all went into SHOCK just fearing that gas prices may goto $.55 a gallon at the pump!
no...that's not a misprint! it's $.55(55 cents)a gallon!
prior to that time and as long as i can remember since i earned my DRIVERS LICENSE in 1952 as a 16 year old high school student,
gas prices then ran...(hold on to you hat!!!) $.29 a gallon for regular!
sometime,the little independent stations would have GAS WARS,on the week ends and then you could fill up your tank for $.15 to $.21 a gallon!
all cars were made of METAL then and most automobiles were 8 cylinders!
the "Beatle bug"(voltzwagon)was really the only small car around that that could be purchased for fuel econmy!
so...........we all stood in GAS LINES ,when we needed gas because there was a shortage for every service station in the country!
it got so bad that the NIXON Administration set into force a plan that called for all license automobiles to fill up according to their licene tag number...
if yout tag ended in an even number,then you could buy gas on Monday,Wednesday,Friday and Sunday's!
and of course if your tag ended with an odd number,then you could buy gas on Tuesday,Thursday,Saturdays!!!
and,most gas stations were being supplied on a limited amount of fuel,during this time....
so,to make sure that you could get gas,you had to plan on getting up at 5:00 am, on your day to purchase gas and drive to your favorite gas pump and GET IN LINE!!!!
yes,there would be lines of autos several blocks long,some mornings!
to make matters worse,you could only purchase just a few gallons each time!
BUT,if the station had pumped it's limit before you made it to the pump...tough crap!!!   you got no gas there!
(i know of a few stations where folks and companies would PAD the POCKETS of the service station owner,just to make sure that their vehicles got fuel that day)!!!
the service stations would remain open in the mornings for about 3 hoiurs...usual 6:am to 9:00am...then they would shut down til the late evening for folks to get fuel once again...remaining open only 2 or 3 hours5:00pm to 8:00pm...
and that's the way it went for over a year or so and then the OPEC countries finally got their act together as gas prices across the U.S.,began to rise to $.60....$.65, $.70 and $.75 cents a gallon!
prices soard as time went by,then some stations would reduce prices to keep their customers!
the little CRISIS also was the beginning of the SELF SERVICE gas stations!
until that time,a gas attendent would come out and fill up you auto with whatever amount you asked for!
they also checked your oil, cleaned your winshield, checked your windshiel wipers,tire pressure and even your trasmission fluid,if needed!(all apart of their servive to the driving public back then...for FREE,too!)
THEN CONGRESS got into the act by declaring that the big automakes should spend some of their profits to find new ways to make cars get better gas mileage,etc.!
SOOOO, that's why all autos are made of PLATIC and FIBERGLASS bodies,now!
but the BIG GUNS in the AUTO industry also charge higher prices for the "new"little autos being produced !
for many years after that millions of "small econmy "autos were making their presence know throught the U.S.,and the world!
AUTO SAFETY took a BACK SEAT during that time,too!
BUT,the BIG OIL Companies have yet to produce on a full scale,any new alternatives to gasoline!
Once the big CRISIS was over,the BIG AUTO makers started producing the big SUV'S and GAS GUZZLERS by the millions again!!!
so what's my point here?
well,we are in the rising GAS PRICES because our own country, THE U.S.of A., failed to make better economy cars,and mass produce the GUZZLER'S like there's no tomorrow!
this is really the way it was and any of you 50 years of age and older know it's thre gospel truth!!!
but again,when you blame the BUSH ADMINISTRATION for all the problerms of FUEL COST, ETC.,just remember this story!
Make no DOUBT about it,friends....
WE(our country) brought a lot of these problems on ourselves!!!!
You will hate it the minute that you have to get up at 5:00 am, in the morning to drive to your nearest service station and pump 5 or 10 gallons (whatever the linit maybe...but there will be one!) just so that you can get to work the next two days....
believe me...you really will HATE IT!
tar

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:37 AM

Tarheel, that is the most convoluted re-write of history I have ever seen. It is just the type of situational values and historical horseshit I have come to expect of conservatives. They have all the answers until it is their oxen being gored.

The simple fact, without all that crap you wrote, is that it has been Republican Big Business advocates who have continually fought the CAFE standards for fuel economy. It has been the Republican Big Business advocates who have fought all manner of environmental intiatives designed to reduce dependence on foreign oil, and clean up the atmosphere. It has been these same louts who have sabotaged attempt after attempt at creating alternative energy sources.

Lay off the Bushshit, buddy. You just look foolish.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:00 PM

Yes, well, if you paid the same price as the UK for your fuel, all your problems would be solved.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:01 PM

What bullshit has Tarheel thrown here ... he is just stating what happened with the Oil crisis in the 1970's. And he did state this fact "WE(our country) brought a lot of these problems on ourselves!!!! Which is true.

Don't blame it on the Republicans ... Democrats drive big SUV's also.

Sorry .. but not I can't detect any bullshit in his post.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:09 PM

ah, the fabulous 1960's . . .
   fabrics that were actually permanent press . . .
    real men in westerns on TV . . .
      & TV dinners in space age foil trays to eat . . .
    a real space program with astronauts who went into space. . .
      v e r y l o n g cars with l o n g fins . . .
       cheap gasoline . . .
         and of course we remember, LH--Star Trek.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:12 PM

If the gas was pumped by your license plate number it wasn't done that way in Ohio, which makes me think that it wasn't a national program. I do remember that gas stations would "take of" their regular customers before others; some even gave you a little sticker for the back of your rear-view mirror. I also remember Nixon putting a freeze on prices, and Carter or Ford slapping a 55 mph speed limit on all vehicles.

But yes, we brought this on ourselves -- and from the SUVs I've seen in Ireland, Canada and the UK the US wasn't acting alone.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:12 PM

Fair enough, number 6. I am not talking so much about whether it happened as much as to his analysis. The root cause is our incredible wastefulness, no doubt. But it is the Republican business interests that have sabotaged any chance to fix it, aided by a few "New" Democrats.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:16 PM

I certainly agree with you Mick that the Republican's Big Interests have sabotaged any chance to fix ... that cannot be denied!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 PM

"it's thre gospel truth!!!
but again,when you blame the BUSH ADMINISTRATION for all the problerms of FUEL COST, ETC.,just remember this story!
Make no DOUBT about it,friends...."

I remember all to well, I had an older Coup DeVille, limo (an older model) could only afford to put $2 day in the tank to get back & forth to work, used it for storage after that.

Thanks Mick, for your post on the "Gospel Truth" & that part of the story is sadly still all too true, espically during this "BUSH ADMINISTRATION".

"WE(our country) brought a lot of these problems on ourselves!!!!"

We did bring it on ourselves, true. By allowing our nation to be run by & for "Big Business".

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 PM

This bullshit, for instance...

"Beatle bug"(voltzwagon)was really the only small car around that that could be purchased for fuel econmy!

In 1973, I was driving an Austin America, which was smaller than a VW bug. (And a lot more fun to drive.)

I was listening to an analysis of the current oil price spike on the radio yesterday. They were saying that the main reason for the current spike is because of oil that has been removed from the market by forces beyond anyone's control, like Hurricane Katrina (oil from the US gulf coast) and political instability in Nigeria. And he was also saying that fears over a possible war with Iran are also causing the price spike.

Probably, the oil interests are quite happy with these developments, since they benefit by being able to raise prices yet once again.

If anyone doesn't like the cost of gasoline, they do have the option of driving more fuel efficient vehicles. That's how we dealth with it in the 1970s. It worked then. It can work now.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:32 PM

During the oil crisis 1973, I was driving in a Chevy Vega. 4 cylinder, great gas mileage. One of my earlier cars was a Corvair Monza convertible which got (no shit!) 35 to 40 miles to the gallon. But then there was my '67 Barracuda..... I would sure like to have it back.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:42 PM

It was an interesting time, to say the least. I remember writing a hypothesis of what I thought would happen. I was definitely not a pollyanna in those days.

Chronology
·        Sept. 15 - The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) declares a negotiating front, consisting of the 6 Persian Gulf States, to pressure for price increases and an end to support of Israel, based on the 1971 Tehran agreement.
·        Oct. 6 - Egypt and Syria attack Israel on Yom Kippur, starting the fourth Arab-Israeli War.
·        Oct. 8–10 - OPEC negotiations with oil companies to revise the 1971 Tehran price agreement fail.
·        Oct. 16 - Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, and Qatar unilaterally raise posted prices by 17 percent to $3.65 a barrel and announce production cuts.
·        Oct. 17 - OAPEC oil ministers agree to use oil as a weapon to punish the West for its support of Israel in the Arab-Israeli war. They recommend an embargo against unfriendly states and mandate a cut in exports.
·        Oct. 19 - Saudi Arabia, Libya and other Arab states proclaim an embargo on oil exports to the United States.
·        Oct. 23–28 - The Arab oil embargo is extended to the Netherlands.
·        Nov. 5 - Arab producers announce a 25 percent output cut. A further five percent cut is threatened.
·        Nov. 23 - The Arab embargo is extended to Portugal, Rhodesia, and South Africa.
·        Nov. 27 - U.S. President Richard Nixon signs the Emergency Petroleum Allocation Act authorizing price, production, allocation and marketing controls.
·        Dec. 9 - Arab oil ministers agree a further five percent cut for non-friendly countries for January 1974.
·        Dec. 25 - Arab oil ministers cancel the five percent output cut for January. Saudi oil minister Yamani promises a 10 percent OPEC production rise.
·Jan. 7–9, 1974 - OPEC decides to freeze prices until April 1.
·        Feb. 11 - U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger unveils the Project Independence plan to make U.S. energy independent.
·        Feb. 12–14 - Progress in Arab-Israeli disengagement brings discussion of oil strategy among the heads of state of Algeria, Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia.
·        Mar. 17 - Arab oil ministers, with the exception of Libya, announce the end of the embargo against the United States.

** "The embargo was not blanket in Europe. Of the nine members of the European Economic Community, the Dutch faced a complete embargo (having voiced support for Israel and allowed the Americans to use Dutch airfields for supply runs to Israel), the United Kingdom and France received almost uninterrupted supplies (having refused to allow America to use their airfields and embargoed arms and supplies to both the Arabs and the Israelis), whilst the other six faced only partial cutbacks"

**A few months later, the crisis eased. The embargo was lifted in March 1974 after negotiations at the Washington Oil Summit, but the effects of the energy crisis lingered on throughout the 1970s. The price of energy continued increasing in the following year, amid the weakening competitive position of the dollar in world markets; and no single factor did more to produce the soaring price inflation of the 1970s in the United States."

**The crisis was further exacerbated by government price controls in the United States, which limited the price of "old oil" (that already discovered) while allowing newly discovered oil to be sold at a higher price, resulting in a withdrawal of old oil from the market and artificial scarcity. The rule had been intended to promote oil exploration. This scarcity was dealt with by rationing of gasoline (which occurred in many countries), with motorists facing long lines at gas stations. In the U.S., drivers of vehicles with license plates having an odd number as the last digit were allowed to purchase gasoline for their cars only on odd-numbered days of the month, while drivers of vehicles with even-numbered license plates were allowed to purchase fuel only on even-numbered days. The rule did not apply on the 31st day of those months containing 31 days, or on February 29 in leap years — the latter never came into play as the restrictions had been abolished by 1976.

Read More Here

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:59 PM

I was driving a '69 VW Beetle. All I really remember is $10.00 would get me from Charleston, WV to Chicago, where my boyfriend was playing in a house band at the Playboy Club. I also remember sweating a few trips because of closed gas stations along I-64.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM

There are numerous "causes" that tend to jerk up prices, and there have been various mixes of political "powers" who have contributed. Both Republican and Democrat Administrations and Congresses have participated.

As a generic observation, which I have no intention of attempting to defend, the Republocrats' favoritism toward big business have allowed certain industries to make spectacular profits, while other "less favored" ones have floundered. Several Democrat administrations have created more general inflation that has been quite painful to some segments of the population. During one year of the Kennedy administration the official increase in the CPI was something like 173%, meaning that things like a loaf of bread cost 2.73 times as much at the end of that year as at its beginning.

It should also be noted that in 1958 a Renault Dauphine could be purchased new for about $1,800, and a VW Beetle for about $1,900.

Sometime about 1974 I did a quite-thorough study of whether I could eliminate a noise in one of my family vehicles by getting her a new car to see if she'd shut up, with the target of $5,000. I couldn't quite make the target, but several modest "family sedans" were at around $6,000. Anything remotely comparable now, new, runs nearer to $14,000 - $18,000 or more.

Taken in the context of other price increases over the same time interval, a US gasoline price of $3.00/gallon seems reasonably comparable to the $0.30 - $0.50 prices common in the older era cited.

Note: I don't like paying more for gasoline, but it's very difficult to pick out any single action by any single party or administration that's "responsible" (culpable is perhaps a better word?).

If I recall correctly, in the 1970 times, a loaf of bread was about $0.15, or if you got a "premium" loaf, perhaps $.39. There are sales, but the regular price now is closer to $2.30 for the cheap stuff. (The farmer still gets less than $0.10 of that.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:17 PM

During that period of the 1970's we didn't own a car ... got around on foot, bicycles, public transit .... train if we went to another city.

Sorta wish I could live like that again ... but like the rest of us, I have gotten a bit too bourgoise.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:30 PM

I did own a car but I switched jobs to one just three miles from home. My car usually got about 17 miles to the gallon, sometimes a little more. It was a 65 (64 1/2) Mustang.

Incidentally I don't remember gas stations closing on certain days, as such, but 'Sold Out' and 'No Gas Today' signs were common.

One learned to try to fill up while there was still 1/4 tank left. People ran out of gas in line. Happened to me one time and three men gallantly pushed me on up.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:40 PM

Well, well, well...

Some real nice revisionist writin' there, T-heel... Yazzir, mighty fine... Ebbie has cleared up some of the mythology but but it's not just our Energy Policy (or better stated, lack there of) that Cheney and his oil boyz wrote up in secret...

It's BUSH's ***failed foriegn policies***...Waht is driving up the costs of "futures" has less to do with what we drive or the Chinese but the instablity that BUSH's ***failed foriegn policies*** have created!!!

Had he done something as sensable as get behind the "Saudi Proposal", which sure might have cost him the '04 election because war presidents don't get voted out until its plain to evryone that the war is dumb, then the current crisis would not exist... The invasion of Iraq and now all the sabre rattlin' with Iran is the #1 reason for today's pump prices...

And as fir the SUV's, T-Heel, you might want to do a little research on the percentage of the overall market they were during yer buddy Clinton's last year in office compared to minivans v. the percentages 3 or 4 years into BUSH's administration???

And CarolC is quite correct about the economy cars of the 60's and 70's... There were plenty both of foreign and domestic flavors and alot of folks bought 'um, too...

But, back to the real reason for the high gas prices, again, BUSH's (not Clinton's, not Reagan's, not Bush I's) ***failed foriegn policies***...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:14 PM

Another interesting part of the analysis I heard yesterday... they said that gas prices had begun to go down because people have started to drive more fuel efficient cars, which has caused demand to go down.

Makes me wonder if some of the hyperbole the Bush people are spouting about Iran is specifically for the purpose of causing a gasoline price spike.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:45 PM

Tarheel, I think you may know less and have bought off on more bullshit ideas about the automotive industry than anyone I know. Virtually nothing you said was/is true. The biggest problem faced by Detroit in '73 was the EPA requirements and manufacturing costs. The Japanese influx was just getting a foothold and that was a problem as well but nothing compared to the other two.

I'm not even going on any further......Others have made the points regarding accuracy of many of your other statements. Want the truth?

Anyone capable of draining urine from cowboy footwear knew that we could always have done better but we never put any importance on mileage, emissions, or quality until absolutely being forced into it somehow. The American public didn't want it and wasn't interested.......and only when each succeeding crunch comes along does anyone care!

You can blame any party or politician you want but the blame is sitting out in the driveways of American homes and those fuel drinking fuck-you-mobiles are what we wanted! How many folks really need an SUV or a van or a pickup? Not me, but I got one....a van that is.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:11 PM

actually both Tarheel and Ebbie are correct,
one can look at the history of oil exporting nations and note they didnt get a fair shake (ie. if profits were down the royalties paid by oil companies were reduced) Organizing into OPEC really was a way to get some of that control back over their resource.
After the 74 oil embargo the Nixon administration seriously considered military action and seizing Saudi Oil fields, but that didnt happen because of the threat of Soviet involvement.

(I highly recommend Paul Roberts the End OF Oil, for a coherent non-political discussion of the topic)

ONce OPEC was able to control the prices, tHe 70s saw an immense transfer of wealth from the west to the oil states.
The wests response was - initially conservation, lowering the speed limit and encouraging or requiring higher gas economy from auto manufacturers. There was also more exploration of non-opec oil, such as the North Sea oil fields, Russian Oil and others.

The Iranian revolution saw the second big jump in oil prices
(each time this caused worldwide recessions)
such as in 74, 80, 91 (after the Gulf War)

For a number of years the OPEC states tried to establish control by quotas and reducing production - but member states cheated, the Saudis didnt really understand the market and how to influence the price of oil until the mid-80s when they opened the taps and flooded the market with cheap oil. This really hurt the Soviet Union as export of oil was their main source of currency - it also killed the more expensive oil in places like Texas etc..

by the late 80s the US auto manufacturers, got into producing SUVs and guzzlers because thats where the profit was, and you cant blame them - the US consumer didnt really care about gas economy. WHereas in Europe the price of gasoline was higher and there was consumer acceptance of smaller gas/economical vehicles. This is where the US automakers fell behind - European and Japanese automakers in producing more efficient vehicles.

The reason the US went into Iraq is not just about securing oil, or democratizing the mideast but because Iraqi oil is like, Saudi oil, very cheap - and Iraq has the 2nd largest reserves after Saudi Arabia.
If the US had a friendly govt in Iraq that was non-opec and could turn up production of oil it could break OPEC and get oil down to US $15 a barrel. I say it doesnt matter whether it would be a republican or democrat in the WHiteHOuse the energy issue is at the forefront all govt policy. Even Carter made a veiled threat about protecting US interest in the Persian Gulf in 1980 when USSR invaded afghanistan.

Ironically, the conservation policy after the 74 embargo reduced American energy use by 30 percent and almost broke OPEC.

So now theres maybe 15years supply of non-opec oil, but the large oil fields are just not being discovered anymore. So once OPEC returns to being the dominant force in controlling oil price they really will have us over a barrel.

in a way the 70$/barrel price is a good thing as it will encourage alternatives, efficiency as well as dealing with the global warming problem, by bringing in some kind of carbon tax, or cap & trade system
PEtr

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:26 PM

Just another pot to stir.....keep at it.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: tarheel
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:00 PM

well, Big mick, Number 6, CarolC, and Catspaw,i really hate reading your filthy "bullshit" words!
you are like a lot smart alecks i know!
they have to spout out every 4 letter word in the book just to get their point across!
they think it gives them a sense of power or being in control!
how sad that you can't read my thread here as sharing something i lived through and voicing my opinion at the end of it!
after all,that's what all of you do,here!
but it's always Jump On Tarheel day,in here no matter the topic or question!
but,it did happen and it was no picnic,believe me!
and as i said,you'll hate it when it happens again....and soon!
tar

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:07 PM

Number 6 ???

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:07 PM

Spaw...
"If the US had a friendly govt in Iraq that was non-opec and could turn up production of oil it could break OPEC and get oil down to US $15 a barrel. "

ummmm, they wouldn't like that in the oil patch would they? Whether in Texas, the Gulf, Alberta, (particularly the Athabasca Tar Sands), or Saudi Arabia. And I think we all know just how beholden to the ubiquitous oil patch (UOP) the current US administration (and in fact the current Canadian government, shaky Conservative minority that they are, centered in Alberta) is.

Just a complete not-gonna-happen, probably for the best. Oil prices are a double-edged sword. High oil prices encourage conservation-thinking and such good practices, but are inevitably boomtimes in the UOP. All kinds of exploration and extraction, such as the Tar Sands project (which has pretty much cancelled any chance of Canada coming close to meeting our Kyoto protocol targets) and ANWAR, which are not attractive during cheap oil seasons, suddenly become profitable if they can be brought online, and politically saleable because they promise to bring the price down.   

I recall clearer Dubya's first mouthpiece-in-chief, Ari whasisname, explaining that President Bush was not going to encourage oil conservation, "because our lifestyle is a blessed lifestyle". Exact quote. So it's a little difficult not to stick the current situation on him...

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: autolycus
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:07 PM

Who's for a change of life to disengage more from current energy practices?

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:15 PM

Did you only read the word "bullshit" in my post, tarheel? I actually did make a point. But if you only read the one word, what does that say about your potty mind?

And I don't see you responding to any of the points I made. Just sniping as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 07:48 PM

tarheel, one day my 7-year-old daughter came home angry and depressed. Her friends, she said, all told her that she is bossy. I said, If they ALL say that, is it possible that you are?

My point: If you really feel that it's "trash and bash tarheel" day wvery time you open your mouth, have you spent any thought in wondering why? You might discover that it's because of your attitude, not to mention subject amtter, and not to mention 'facts' that don't hold up. Do a bit of fact checking from time to time- it's less mortifying.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 08:16 PM

Ivor, A change of life is what it will take. Unfortunately, I think that change will be forced by scarcity and catastrophy rather than made by thoughtful choice.

And it is true that many of the choices to scale back on consumption and comfort are hard choices to make. In first world countries, we are so accustomed to priviledge that we don't recognize it as such. For example, what is the cost in energy and pollution of 150 people, give or take a few, going to the FSGW Getaway from all corners of the globe? I would hate to miss it. But is it essential? Would I be willing to give up the Getaway because it is an un essential use of gas, jet fuel, etc? Beyond that, would I willingly give up the option to choose whether to go or not.

While there are certainly technologies such as solar that allow one to live comfortably and lightly on the earth, who gets to do that? Only those with considerable financial resources. What are the odds that sufficient public support and dollars will be made available to make alternative energy sources for local, conservative consumption affordable for anyone but the very well-to-do?

Think of the energy that would be saved if all the air conditioners in the USA were unplugged? Will people choose to do that? (Front porches would come back in vogue and people would once again get to know their neighbors:>).

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: tarheel
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 08:47 PM

EBBIE and CAROLC...you are soooo narrow minded!
sad..
but,i must have struck a nerve from your responses!
i was just telling a true story and making my point,as i see it!
i cannot for the life of me,understand why you all are so upset!
anyway you are narrow minded people on a narrow minded road!


tar

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM

tarheel, ask yourself which one of us upset.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 08:56 PM

janie, good points.
the fact is our lifestyle is not sustainable, and its certainly not
sustainable for the West and India and China..etc
- there is a restaurant that is called '100 miles' (or something similar) here in BC and it serves items on the menu that come from within a 100mile radius.
do we always need fruit in the middle of winter that is not in season.
HOW is it that here in BC vegetables and fruits that are trucked in from California are cheaper than ours?
How is it that when the Canada beef industry was devastated by the BSE scare and closure of US market, I would go to the supermarket thinking I could buy cheap beef to barbeque and find that the price was the same (even though ranchers were getting next to nothing for their cows)
I ended up buying NEw Zealand beef which was cheaper...

regarding the air conditioners though-- in heat waves many people die
so I wouldnt necessarily knock them, but its interesting that
the Clinton administration tried to regulate the standards for efficiency of air conditioners. (Mainly because most people especially with low incomes, buy cheap air conditioners that are powerhogs, and when theres a heatwave they use way too much power leading to blackouts) The industry fought Clinton and won.
And only a few months ago the Republicans recently implemented exactly those changes that Clinton sought -

conservation = efficiency.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM

If the only thing we will have to do is get up at 5:00 A.M. every other day to get our gas, we will be very lucky. Unfortunately, the scenario will be much worse than in 1973.

Exploitation of the natural resources of other countries is why "...our lifestyle is a blessed lifestyle". Without war, the present economy cannot be sustained unless we go to war and conquer other nations. We can then secure an abundant supply of energy for ourselves at the expense of other nations.

Doesn't really matter if its Democrats or Republicans; an economy based on "ripping off" others won't work in the long term. Rationing, driving economical vehicles, etc. are just band-aids. We need alternate energy resources and a sustainable economy to insure a future for generations to come. Big business is only interested in profit.

Of course that means profit at the expense of others.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:37 PM

tarheel, what makes you think I'm upset? You are not capable of upsetting me.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Bert
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:19 PM

... & TV dinners in space age foil trays to eat...

Personally I usually tried to avoid eating the foil trays. *HEE HEE*

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:28 PM

The tins went down better if you didn't bother to cook the dinner and just ate it frozen. The taste was about the same either way.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:32 PM

I actually like the innovation of TV dinners where they have those little divided areas where the corn is, the sliced beef, the dehydrated potatoes .... all kept separate .... so you don't get all that crap mixed in together.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:45 PM

1973. I was in (West) Germany. Sonntag Fahrverbot. Very impressive. You could get a much better impression of the US by reading their newspapers, listening to their radio, etc--a lot more objective than in the US itself. On the other hand, in Germany I didn't need a car--train and bus system excellent.

But of course distances not comparable to the US.

Tarheel--if you don't realize that the Bush regime and its supporters have been the main obstacle to better fuel economy, you need to read more. When fuel economy provisions have been in energy bills, they have stripped them out. Now gas guzzlers have fallen on hard times--but not because of the Bush regime's foresight--just because the oil price is up--and likely to stay up at least through the summer.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 11:48 PM

maybe Lee Raymonds retirement package (from Exxon) has an impact on the price of gas/petro these days.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:04 AM

Have I seen this thread somewhere before?

I'll get my coat.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:05 AM

Have I seen this thread somewhere before?

I'll get my coat.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: number 6
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 05:05 PM

Don't forget your hat ... here it is.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:01 PM

willie-o
the scenario of the US wanting to break Opecs oil control by having friendly Iraqi govt flooding the market with oil (not necessarily something I agree with or would have expected to happen)
is pretty much behind the real reason behind the Iraq adventure.
Doesnt matter what the oil patch thinks..
Hi oil prices may be good for the Oil patch but not the overall US and world economy.

and we're nitpicking anyway - tarheel whatever his other ideas is correct on one point - the US auto industry only adjusted briefly in the 70s when gas economy was needed - and went back to producing guzzler SUVs in the late 80s when there was an oil glut (thanks to the Arabs in their attempt to kill off competition).
The US auto industry fell behind the Euro and Asian automakers in making gas economy, and mainly because north Americans didnt care, they wanted performance..

Its a good thing that oil prices are high now. It will make alternatives and conservation/efficiency more desirable.

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:18 PM

On last night's news this guy - I've forgotten who - said that we'd settle down to $4.00 gas.

I wouldn't mind it so much if the extra money didn't go just to line the oil industry's pockets. Did you see last week that the retiring CEO of Exxon was given a 400 million retirement package?

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:47 PM

Ummmmmmmm, the US has an Energy Policy, right??? Can anyone tell me what it is???

Hmmmmmmmm??? Now I better unnerstand why Cheney don't want to give up his notes on who was involved in writin' this policy... They are secret as well as the energy policy...

Maybe, since no one really can tell us what the secret energhy policy is that was written in secret by folks whoes identities Cheney would like secret that what we are seeing with Exxon posting the highest profits in the history of American corporation, that these profits *are* the crux of the secret energy policy???

But guess what, folks??? Give up???

It's Detroit's (blue state) fault!!! Yes, this little situation has nuthing to do with Bush's destabilizing the the region with the oil.... It's all Detroit's fault!!!

Ya' know what??? Give uo???

Those who parrot that crap are nuthin' but shills for corrupt Bush administartion with Oilman Bush, Oilman Cheney and Oilwoman Rice laughing behind your backs...

"Don't worry, George... Them NASCAR dads will jump on Detroit like ugly on a gorilla... You just watch 'um..." (heh, heh)

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:13 PM

UK unaffected - we were issued with petrol ration books (never had to use them), national 50mph speed limit, garages out of fuel regularly for days at a time and that was in a city only a kick in the pants away from a major oil refinery (Esso Fawley).

Subject: RE: BS: deejavu...1973
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:24 PM

"the United Kingdom and France received almost uninterrupted supplies " is what the article said, Teribus. No one but you has claimed that the UK was "unaffected."